Maintaining Barbs hold aggro...

Mhikan - Heavens Tear
Mhikan - Heavens Tear Posts: 24 Arc User
edited February 2009 in Archer
k, lets help each other so we know what to do in every TT, FB etc on not to steal aggro away from mobs and bosses...(even tho not to steal aggro from mob is a bit hard)

I already know the stuff like let the barb do it's aggro skill first, remove all ur crit stuff, dmg enhance stuff etc. But what is this thing that u need to let the party manage to dmg the boss about 10% of it's hp b4 u start to fire thingy?

I already tried this and it works fine on me (even me doing dual spark erup + 3 consequtive crits didnt steal aggro from boss) but not sure tho since i already manage to do that once....

any help or good suggestion so we wont be a 'trouble maker' in any TT, FB?
Post edited by Mhikan - Heavens Tear on

Comments

  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Mhikan - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    k, lets help each other so we know what to do in every TT, FB etc on not to steal aggro away from mobs and bosses...(even tho not to steal aggro from mob is a bit hard)

    I already know the stuff like let the barb do it's aggro skill first, remove all ur crit stuff, dmg enhance stuff etc. But what is this thing that u need to let the party manage to dmg the boss about 10% of it's hp b4 u start to fire thingy?

    I already tried this and it works fine on me (even me doing dual spark erup + 3 consequtive crits didnt steal aggro from boss) but not sure tho since i already manage to do that once....

    any help or good suggestion so we wont be a 'trouble maker' in any TT, FB?


    Aggro is measured in threat levels.

    There are two ways to increase threat:
    1. increase aggro skills (flesh ream etc)
    2. do more accumilative damage

    Basically what you're trying to do is NOT to out damage a tank (whether a BM or Barb). Chances are you won't be able to steal aggro when the boss is down 10% hp (I assume you've taken Annor's suggestion in his/her guide?)before you fire because you will have a hard time trying to accumilate more damage to effectively top off the tank's threat level (which again is a combination of aggro skills and damage)

    An alternative is to stop a short while between attacks when someone is tanking. Example, if you crit 4 times in a row, you better stop for a few seconds, if not your crits may quickly stack up and your threat level is now more than the tanker (BM or Barb) in which case the boss changes target to the person with the MOST threat i.e you in this situation.

    When a barb tells you it is fine and you won't steal aggro so keep firing, DON'T listen to them - you should know how much to dish out before taking a break or you should start later. Experience will let you know when to stop or when to start.

    Hope this helps.
  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    The problem I have with the 'Fire and Pause' method, is that you completely lose track of where you are with threat, and how much of the fight you have spent out of action, meaning when you stop, and when you start, become blind guesses.

    The 'Stop After Crits' seems flawed as well... Basically, each character is going to be capable of different amounts of threat per second with their basic attacks... stopping after crits assume that your threat output is just slightly less than the tank's and those few installments of double damage will push you over the threshhold -- This will rarely be the case.. generally, by a minute or two in to a fight, threat will be determined in such large quantities that a single crit will have little bearing unless you are already riding the tank's tail so to speak. In greater terms of the fight, your crit chance should not be seen as a knife in the dark, but as a percentage of your total sustained damage.

    You should be thinking about Sustained Threat per Second over prolonged periods of time, not "oh that shot was a little big", try to guess how a tank's threat capabilities compare to your own -- and then... if you're using my method, give them the headstart appropriate to that comparison.


    The one scenario where crits are likely to matter is in very short fights, like trash mobs, where you will only be giving your tank 2-3 swings headstart.
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I had problems with Gouf where I crit ~10 times in a very short period of time and I gave the BM (+6 levels) sufficient lead aswell. (This is where I pieced together how the aggro system worked)

    Also had a similar situation against krimson when a barb +7 or so my level lost aggro because I crit too much. He had a pretty big lead aswell. (he gave me his word I will not pull aggro and I was feeling in a "whatever" mood then so I just autoattacked. The outcome is probably expected and I have only myself to blame for trusting him on that)

    A crit or so doesn't make much difference, it's when you start critting more than usual where you have to be careful. I seem to be able to keep track in the fire and pause method. I look at how many times the tanker hits in my cooldown period and I also do ask them how much damage they deal on average.

    I agree yes, that it does become of a blind guess but I'm so use to it, I can keep track enough for pretty much every boss fight I come across. Probably not to the digit, but I have a fairly good overview of the threat levels.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Mhikan - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I already know the stuff like let the barb do it's aggro skill first, remove all ur crit stuff, dmg enhance stuff etc. But what is this thing that u need to let the party manage to dmg the boss about 10% of it's hp b4 u start to fire thingy?

    I think archers should always try to get off the 2nd shot (overall) on any boss, the sharp arrow. Then after that just adjust dmg to whatever to whatever you think the tank can handle.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • AlpineFrost - Lost City
    AlpineFrost - Lost City Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Step one: Get a barb that is actually a tank. (maxed flesh ream, beastial rage, the whole nine yards)
    Step two: The barb SPAMS flesh ream and beastial rage. Im talking the second they cool they are cast again.

    Enjoy! If you have a competent tank, EVEN IF YOU CRIT you shouldnt pull aggro. Because Flesh Ream stacks and if they are constantly build chi and spamming it they should have so much aggro built that it is impossible for you to pull aggro.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ex-Waffles Director
    ~Ragequit
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    AlpineFrost - Lost City wrote: »
    Step one: Get a barb that is actually a tank. (maxed flesh ream, beastial rage, the whole nine yards)
    Step two: The barb SPAMS flesh ream and beastial rage. Im talking the second they cool they are cast again.

    that is a big part of it
  • Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear
    Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    hi everyoneb:laughb:laughb:laughb:laugh
    "When life gives you arrows give them back ", Divine_Demon b:sin
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I think archers should always try to get off the 2nd shot (overall) on any boss, the sharp arrow. Then after that just adjust dmg to whatever to whatever you think the tank can handle.

    I have seen tanks lose bosses when my boss maximum health debuf wore off. Maybe something other than our boss suddenly noticing some ridiculous number of hp being gone caused this?
  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Pretty sure the reduced HP is completely unnoticed, sure the timing wasnt coincidental? were you attacking when the debuff wore off?
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I also second Annor, that reduced hp is not taken into account. It does not add to the threat level.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Pretty sure the reduced HP is completely unnoticed, sure the timing wasnt coincidental? were you attacking when the debuff wore off?

    Yes, I was attacking, I did not pull their attacks on to me other times when I was attacking.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Reducing maximum HP is not damage, hence it does not affect threat levels.
  • Mosz - Heavens Tear
    Mosz - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,181 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    the skill that reduces max hp has a phsyical attack component though, dont forget that
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Yes it does have a damage component, but I think Fleuri was more interested in the mechanics of reducing max HP and threat levels.

    Anyway, don't think that damage would amount to much, but maybe that may be the reason why the boss swtched targets? I am very certain reducing max HP is not damage and is NOT involved in increasing threat levels.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Reducing maximum HP is not damage, hence it does not affect threat levels.

    I appreciate everyone trying to answer my question.

    But I did not pull the bosses when I first attacked them with sharpened tooth arrow. Instead, I was sometimes pulling them when my "maximum HP reduced" effect wore off.
  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I think its just coincidental timing... you were attacking... and you happened to pull aggro 30 seconds after firing your HP reduce shot.

    Common sense also tells you that although the percentage dives when the effect wears off, the actual HP is lost immediately when the shot is fired... the HP lost from the effect does not count for threat, but hypothetically if it did, it would most likely be registered immediately. Were the monsters actual players, they might "notice" when the effect wore off.

    If you want to test your theory though, find something with a lot of HP -- like a lower level boss that wont hit too hard... have a barb friend hit it once then cancel his attack... you fire your HP shot then cancel your attack, then after 30 seconds of nothing, see if the monster's attention shifts.
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.
  • Fabiana - Lost City
    Fabiana - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    PW must consider putting tools such as threat meters ingame and threat loss skills specially for high damage doersb:victory
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ESPADA marshal
    lvl 7x~ Archer
  • Annor - Heavens Tear
    Annor - Heavens Tear Posts: 330 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Hah, that would be beautiful -- even if it was just something really basic that told you if you were in different bands of threat: i.e.:
    -Have the monsters attention
    -85% of the tank's threat or higher
    -50%-85%
    -<50%
    -unnoticed
    Meek with words, abrupt with arrows.

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