The Art of Tanking and Grouping on bosses

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  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    fuzzles wrote: »
    Sure did.

    Post is too short, so I'll just throw in that the OP is a bit slow.

    No fuzzles, the OP has been gaming longer than you've been out of diapers most likely. I have seen time and time again people getting themselves killed or their squads/raids wiped because they didn't follow some basic SIMPLE rules.

    You admitted yourself to not having read my post, so you have nothing to say other than some small dig at me because you don't like me. That is fine, you don't have to like me, your non constructive discussion isn't even required. You don't like what I post.. don't comment in it.. especially if you (as you stated) didn't even bother to read it.

    This guide is not for advanced, skilled players who have years of raid experience. I.E. Those who already KNOW what their characters can do, in various situations because they have experienced it and learned. This guide is for newer players who are not familiar with their characters skills and abilities and for players who don't know Raid rules.

    I gave BASIC guidelines for groups and raids. ALL players would benefit from knowing these things, even advanced skilled players if for no other reason than to help teach less skilled players how to prevent preventable deaths and wipes.

    So Fuzzles.. your dislike of me aside. do you have anything actually constructive to post and discuss or are you so small your unable to reason past your dislike of people and post constructively?

    ~S
  • The ferenczy - Sanctuary
    The ferenczy - Sanctuary Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    mr/mrs saitada would you give me permission to post with credit given to you and your guild that guide on my guilds web space? so that i might have and easier time training my newer players. Like you said it is good info for the newer player. you can pm your offer if you don't wanna post even a no would be ok :)

    and to every one who bags on "NOOBS" remember you were one once too untill some one gave you information like this.
    one day the world will shout to me save us....
    and i will whisper no.
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I've been invited to couple FB to gain exp and gain role experience for future fb's.

    As a blademaster I cannot do much yet, Most of what I do is to support whoever is attaching something getting close to the core of the squad (where the cleric or the veno player is).

    I think is a good role since I do quick kills and keep the squad safe and viable.

    I don't venture far away from the squad since I get kill when I do.

    On my own I realize that I should attack the boss as soon a good amount of damage has been done to him and the core of the squad is safe.

    I have attacked the boss with two different damage over time skills, one after the other and I have not had the boss to pay attention to me. LOL

    I think the boss, after being for a while on the tank is programmed to remain there, unless something out of ordinary happens (like the tank running away, like it happened in my last one, thats funny to watch).
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think the boss, after being for a while on the tank is programmed to remain there, unless something out of ordinary happens (like the tank running away, like it happened in my last one, thats funny to watch).

    The boss is not programmed to attack anyone. it goes after whoever does the most dmg (excluding aggro skills). So if the tank is not using aggro skills, its because your not doing enough dmg. And if the tank is using aggro skills, its still possible to steal aggro with a high dps. If i go by the OP's suggestions, i might as well put away my bow and get a pair of fists.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Jandira - Sanctuary
    Jandira - Sanctuary Posts: 82 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I've reached a lvl where most of what's here I've had to find out the hard way. I'm just a cleric, mostly support, but I still wish I had read this post 20+ lvls ago.

    Good job. b:victory
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So Fuzzles.. your dislike of me aside. do you have anything actually constructive to post and discuss or are you so

    I'll take a little of column A, a little of column B.

    I think parts of your guide are misleading. It's all very well and good to say that it's for inexperienced players, but you boiled things down to the point that some things in there are just wrong. Oversimplification isn't often a good thing. Also, most of the barb tanking section of your guide is clearly written by someone who has most likely never played a tanking barb. We've already pointed out why your parts of your guide are wrongo, and why it's evident that you really have no idea about barbs, and as such a tanking guide is a rather weird choice of guides for you to write... Seriously though.. it's so damn evident that you've never played a tanky barb.. stop writing about theoretical things that look like they'll work on paper. You'll get get people killed when they try to follow your advice.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Tanks that have a hp recovery skill. Save this skill. If a party member gets killed (hopefully not the cleric) inform the cleric your skill is avialable for use so they can stop healing you long enough to rez the party member that has died (if there is only one cleric in your party
    I assume you're talking about sunder. There's a coupla reasons this won't work:
    1) It costs 2 sparks to use. Most barbs blow all their chi on flesh ream so they can hold aggro, almost regardless of how much damage the DDs do (I put that in bold because it's one of the things you got wrong in your guide). Having no chi makes it jolly difficult to throw around sunder on demand.
    2) The amount of healing it does is absolutely nothing compared to the cleric heal. Let's assume that the barb is using a level 10 sunder.. (that means they're at least level 86).. at the very most, level 10 sunder heals 4800 HP. (Not counting sage). If you were a barb, you would know that 4800 HP is nothing compared to how much damage a boss does to you. And it's over 30 seconds as well. That means it heals 160 a second. When the boss is doing hundreds of damage a hit to you, that means nothing.

    That entire section of your guide is totally wrong. If a party member dies, the cleric should not even try to res until after the boss unless the dead person is absolutely essential to killing the boss or the cleric knows for a 100% fact that the tank can manage fine without them for a while.

    You throw terrible advice around, it's almost like you're trying to get people killed. On top of that, you take any criticism of your guide as a personal insult, and as such you ignore it entirely, and refuse to make corrections to your guide.

    And if I must be constructive, I'll say that you actually had some good points to make.. yes.. I'm shocked too. I didn't think you had it in you. Don't get me wrong.. pretty much everything to do with barbs in your guide is wrong... but the rest of it is pretty decent. I particularly liked the way you encourage communication within parties. Most of your cleric advice is pretty solid stuff. I particularly liked your section on FACs. That's solid advice any FAC should follow. Tell the party that you're an FAC so we can adjust accordingly.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • thewordlesssignature
    thewordlesssignature Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Why couldn't I have found this sooner...? I'm glad that I found something like this- I'm new to online games (PWI being my first online game) and I'm very worried about getting people killed while doing FB's. I'm a full int cleric geared towards attack, so your bit about FAC's really helped me =D

    Even though this guide may have some errors (that I'm sure that other people have found out and gave appropriate corrections to), this guide is still a great starting point for ALL newbies to read. I know of some newbies that just attacked indiscriminately while in the instance because they thought the mobs inside the FB were the same as the mobs outside of it...and got themselves and everybody else killed.

    I think that at least the basic things- don't go rushing off and getting yourself killed, save the freaken Cleric before you ALL DIE and how to look out for each other (moving around your cam, what to do when you get an add, etc) was sound advice that most new players will take to heart.

    On that note...I still think this post deserves a sticky. =p

    jaa,
    sano
  • Starang - Lost City
    Starang - Lost City Posts: 460 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The Tank should inform the party of what damage he/she is doing. I.E. (blademaster) My stream strike is doing 800 damage and my normal attacks are doing 500 damage. (veno) My pet is hitting for 600 damage per tick. Etc.

    This helps how? The tank keeps the aggro with ripping bite not with the damage the tank makes. Sure the damage has a part in it but keeping aggro is mostly due to ripping bite.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The party members should ALWAYS wait to attack the mob until it is at LEAST 1/4 of the way down (3/4 life remaining) UNLESS they are support damage like second barbs/blades in which case they wait till the mob has ticked off 1/5 of it's life and then attack with NON AGRO gaining attacks such as a base attack w/o magic. Their job is not to tank but to add DPS.

    If you wait 1/4 of the boss HP in HH then you will be there the next 2 hours waiting for tank to get the boss's HP down to 1/4 lol. What is the point in this? I have never had any problems keeping aggro after 1 ripping bite.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Casters & Archers... The tank has informed you of their damage, you now have a reference to watch. You nuke and do 4000 damage. Don't nuke again until you have ticked off the Tanks damage EXCEEDING yours in your mind. I.E....
    Nuke 4k damage. barb tanking... tick (one thousand one one thousand two one thousand three one thousand four one thousand five one thousand six one thousand seven etc..) until you have ticked off approx the damage you did -vs- the damage the tanks doing... error on the side of caution.. it's better to wait a second or five longer before firing again, than to pull agro from the tank and get yourself and your party wiped.

    Useless again. If the tank is good, he will keep the aggro no matter what. Only case when the tank would lose the aggro is a random aggroing boss.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    DO NOT EVER run ahead of the tank. His/Her job is to take the agro of the mobs ahead of your squad, if you run ahead of your tank... you just became the tank. If you die, the fault is your own, not the tanks, not the clerics.. all yours.

    Agreed.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Tanks.... Your job is simple.. **** the mob off. use all your agro gaining/Hate gaining attacks, constantly. If you need spark and a veno is around.. hopefully they will have the skill to share a spark with you ( Lending Hand ). don't hesitate to ask for a spark if they do. Keep the mob pissed at you. Spam your agro attacks constantly. Also.. keep an eye out for adds.. If your the only tank.. your gonna have to grab them while the others switch off to kill them. If you can keep agro on adds for a few seconds, that is often enough for the casters and support dps to grab them and take them out.

    Why would a tank need to use a spark/double spark or even heaven/hell fury? Like I said, RIPPING BITE is the thing that keeps the aggro on the tank. Save the chi/vigor to spam RIPPING BITE and don't waste it on sparks.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Tanks that have a hp recovery skill. Save this skill. If a party member gets killed (hopefully not the cleric) inform the cleric your skill is avialable for use so they can stop healing you long enough to rez the party member that has died (if there is only one cleric in your party, if there are two, the support cleric should rez and allow the primary cleric to continue healing the tank.).. Also tanks.. you have HP charms available, Potions, Powders etc... you should be using these as well to help save the clerics mana.

    HP Recovery skill? I think you mean the Turtle skill, right? Uses 2 sparks and All damage taken will be reduced by 90%. Do you realize, that HP charm is more expensive than MP charm and ticks alot more if you don't heal the tank and expect the tank to use pots, powders wtf? You must be kidding me right. Also tanks repair cost from HH/FB runs is massive compared to clerics repairs.
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ALL party members... Charms, Powders and Potions are your friends. Use them. Often. learn NOT to depend on a cleric to keep you alive, even when your the tank and you need them to do just that.

    Ehh? Tank should ALWAYS rely on clerics support, especially in HH.

    Make some research about the actual things you talk about here or get some experience in them or something... jesus.
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    This helps how? The tank keeps the aggro with ripping bite not with the damage the tank makes. Sure the damage has a part in it but keeping aggro is mostly due to ripping bite.
    I've had my PET out damage a barb using ripping bite. Not once.. but several times in the same fight. Barb did get agro back... but my pet did so much damage to the boss that it was dicey for a while.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    If you wait 1/4 of the boss HP in HH then you will be there the next 2 hours waiting for tank to get the boss's HP down to 1/4 lol. What is the point in this? I have never had any problems keeping aggro after 1 ripping bite.
    Let my Phoenix attack while you use ripping bite. When I do 10-50x your damage you can bet the mob is gonna be looking at my pet and not showing a lot of interest in you. Also.. different bosses, different attack rules. As I said in a previous post, this is mainly for lower level, inexperienced players, to help them NOT get their squads killed because they made some basic mistakes that they shouldn't have. As the character progresses and grows you would "hope" they learn the finer mechanics of the game and can modify these "rules/suggestions" as they go.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Useless again. If the tank is good, he will keep the aggro no matter what. Only case when the tank would lose the aggro is a random aggroing boss.
    See above. Legendary pets.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Agreed.
    Wish more people would understand this part as well.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Why would a tank need to use a spark/double spark or even heaven/hell fury? Like I said, RIPPING BITE is the thing that keeps the aggro on the tank. Save the chi/vigor to spam RIPPING BITE and don't waste it on sparks.
    Having only recently started playing a barb character (lvl 12) and with my BM only at 27 i'm probably going to be revising this somewhat. I do admit my experience concerning tanks in this game is an extrapolation from my experience with tanks in Everquest. That being said.. there are probaly some glaring errors and I do appreciate those who correct constructively.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    HP Recovery skill? I think you mean the Turtle skill, right? Uses 2 sparks and All damage taken will be reduced by 90%. Do you realize, that HP charm is more expensive than MP charm and ticks alot more if you don't heal the tank and expect the tank to use pots, powders wtf? You must be kidding me right. Also tanks repair cost from HH/FB runs is massive compared to clerics repairs.
    HP charm and MP charm.. hmmm HP charm having a lower number of recovery points, yes I see your point. As for the skill. I don't know it's name, just seen it used a few times in FB's when things started going south due to adds and bad croud control. And yes I know it ticks more... thats why you supplement the clerics heals with your pots and powders. Expect them to do their job yes.. but be prepared for if they can't. And yes I know the repair costs are more.. I cringe now at 27 with my baby BM every time she goes and does repairs.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Ehh? Tank should ALWAYS rely on clerics support, especially in HH.
    I'm not disagreeing here... But in my opinion, based on experience playing tanks in EQ.. If you rely 100% on your cleric and are NOT prepared for them to fail, Die, DC or just lag out.. your dead a LOT more than your not.

    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Make some research about the actual things you talk about here or get some experience in them or something... jesus.
    I'm working on that. I have a LOT more experience playing tanks in other games. Not so much in this one, but learning. My experience in other games (EQ being just ONE of them) is that what I wrote, translates fairly well across ALL fantasy type MMO's that require characters to Tank. I'm not seeing a great deal of drift even in this one. Some things ARE different yes... but far more are the same than different, and I for one don't like getting killed because some idiot didn't know basic Raid behavior.

    ~S
  • Morayine - Sanctuary
    Morayine - Sanctuary Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    havent read all the whining goin on here, clear from Sataida that he/she is a pain in the butt and feels too important to listen to any1, hotshot guildleader also wow,obliged to stay on a pve server cuss of her duties lol, i m really impressed.
    Remind me never to party with you.
    Uhh and why havent you followed the only real good advice you give yourself in your signature ?
    Post a sticky/guide on how you killed yourself pls, with screenshots, so we can all have positive postings and fun gameplay.
    And dont bother to react cuzz i am not even reading any comments from you after this lol;b:bye
    "There's a big difference knowing the Path, and Walking the Path"
  • Ninnuam - Sanctuary
    Ninnuam - Sanctuary Posts: 1,086 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Starang - Lost City wrote: »
    Do you realize, that HP charm is more expensive than MP charm and ticks alot more if you don't heal the tank and expect the tank to use pots, powders wtf? You must be kidding me right. Also tanks repair cost from HH/FB runs is massive compared to clerics repairs.

    Agreed with pretty much everything except this bit.

    1) They cost the same. 4G each.
    2) Yes, the hp charm recovers a bit less, BUT it kicks in at 50% hp, mp charm kicks in at 75% mp.
    3) Your hp seldom, if ever drops under 50% (if it does 90% of the time it's because you rushed in a mob while the cleric is still dragging his slow **** behind you and you actually make him use a more expensive skill first such as stream of rejuvenation so he could prevent your precious charm from ticking). My mp drops below 75% every 10 seconds. Let me just say that without using focus/jade powders to conserve my mp charm (and even using those it still ticks WAY too often), on TT runs I'd waste 10 gold mp charms long before I'd let you waste one. So please, don't get into a 'barb vs cleric' money debate. You're playing a losing game there. And that's including your repair costs.

    Again, agree with pretty much everything you said, but for the love of god give credit where credit is due.
    b:dirty
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I have a simple idea, if barbs are going to complain that their hp charm was used, all they have to do is not equip one.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Morayine - Sanctuary wrote: »
    havent read all the whining goin on here, clear from Sataida that he/she is a pain in the butt and feels too important to listen to any1, hotshot guildleader also wow,obliged to stay on a pve server cuss of her duties lol, i m really impressed.
    Remind me never to party with you.
    Uhh and why havent you followed the only real good advice you give yourself in your signature ?
    Post a sticky/guide on how you killed yourself pls, with screenshots, so we can all have positive postings and fun gameplay.
    And dont bother to react cuzz i am not even reading any comments from you after this lol;b:bye
    Troll is fail. If you had bothered to read anything beyond your nose, you would have read a discussion between me and a barb concerning barbs tanking, and my comments accordingly being adjusted to take into account the differences of this game -vs- other mmo's i've played. I am also not "obliged" to stay on the pve server. You failed to comprehend anything. I spend time on the Sanctuary server because I feel a responsibility to my faction members, but my primary playing goes on Lost City. If your unable to comprehend someone feeling a responsibility towards their friends... YOU should be applying the advice in my sig.

    Don't worry M.. I won't bother squading with you either. I don't squad with people who lack the ability to reason at a level equal to or above that of a mentally challenged Rhesus monkey.

    ~S
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I've had my PET out damage a barb using ripping bite. Not once.. but several times in the same fight. Barb did get agro back... but my pet did so much damage to the boss that it was dicey for a while.

    That's TT for you.

    Pets dont have the TT damage penalty that players do. Any veno can draw aggro from TT bosses.

    Looky here, Saitada. You obviously have never ever played a tank before. So please please please don't try to write a guide for them. You know nothing about tanking, but you're too arrogant to admit it.

    All you're doing is misleading people. But you're also too arrogant to admit that.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again. You're incapable of accepting any criticism, even in instances where you are completely 100% wrong.

    Any budding tank who reads this guide is gonna walk away worse off than if they had avoided it entirely.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • Latentkarma - Lost City
    Latentkarma - Lost City Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    fuzzles wrote: »
    That's TT for you.

    Pets dont have the TT damage penalty that players do. Any veno can draw aggro from TT bosses.

    Looky here, Saitada. You obviously have never ever played a tank before. So please please please don't try to write a guide for them. You know nothing about tanking, but you're too arrogant to admit it.

    All you're doing is misleading people. But you're also too arrogant to admit that.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again. You're incapable of accepting any criticism, even in instances where you are completely 100% wrong.

    Any budding tank who reads this guide is gonna walk away worse off than if they had avoided it entirely.
    Nope not in a TT... in FB49 and 59.... And this is just a Hercules, in world boss fights my phoenix has to be recalled frequently or he completely takes agro from the tank because he is out damaging the tank so fast (w/o using flesh ream at all) that the tank can't keep the agro regardless of what he does, and this is WITH ME TRANSFERING SPARK to the tank.

    Also... I have played a Tank before, something you'd have read if you had bothered to read more than one line. I have also been going over a few things with several tanks here who have been giving constructive feedback to help me adjust my tank methods to THIS game. (btw, go play a tank in Everquest and try to play like you do in PWI... you'll have a squad/raid wipe in very short order and find yourself unable to get any groups at all rather quickly) I admit to not having played a tank much here, my blademaster is just 27, and my barb is only 12 now, but regardless of what you say or how much you dislike me... Your absolutley wrong in stating this guide won't help prevent squad wipes if it's followed AND ADJUSTED as need arises to fit the situation.

    Thats the other thing you forget to accept.. These are not "concrete" rules, situations in FB's and TT's and world boss fights are fluid and ever changing, and each player needs to be able to adjust their play accordingly. NEW players would do good to take things easy, stay behind the tank, and not rush in like fools, agro everything around them and get their squads wiped because they didn't understand some basic raid rules. Again.. something YOU seem to be unable to comprehend. maybe the arrogant one here isn't me, but you?

    LK
  • demise
    demise Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Latentkarma - Lost City wrote: »
    Nope not in a TT... in FB49 and 59.... And this is just a Hercules

    Out of curiosity...did you have it's pets skills turned off so that it was using regular attacks? O.o (excluding phoenix because the attack speed/Claw)
  • Latentkarma - Lost City
    Latentkarma - Lost City Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    demise wrote: »
    Out of curiosity...did you have it's pets skills turned off so that it was using regular attacks? O.o (excluding phoenix because the attack speed/Claw)
    Only skill the herc had on was pounce. Which I realized shortly after was agro gaining and turned it off... just a few seconds too late. The second, and third times this happened, I had gotten distracted with stuff going on here at home and forgot to turn off the skills as well. The fourth time it happened my pets skills were off, and the herc simply did far more damage than the tank could hold agro from. Herc was doing 1200+ per tick and then when the boss turned, add reflect to the tick and it meant I had a hard time loosing agro. Good thing hercs such an insane tank or i'dda been a squishy mess on the floor of the FB79.
  • Ninnuam - Sanctuary
    Ninnuam - Sanctuary Posts: 1,086 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    You wouldn't. The tank would've picked up aggro back the moment herc died.
    b:dirty

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