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AirHealer - Heavens Tear
AirHealer - Heavens Tear Posts: 27 Arc User
edited February 2009 in Cleric
I've personally been a cleric for a short time. I have previously been a venomancer, a barbarian, and a wizard. I think clerics need more power. They need to be less reliant upon others. I know that clerics are supposed to be off on the side and healing but I want to do some tanking. The spells aren't bad but I'd like to get some melee or long-ranged melee in too.

So just basically, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know but it would be great if someday clerics just got a little stronger.
Post edited by AirHealer - Heavens Tear on

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  • turonga
    turonga Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    A cleric is a support and more of a party roll, if they were to have good damage it kinda defeats the whole purpose of the class. But you can go full power on a cleric and that should solve it.
  • Cosmos - Heavens Tear
    Cosmos - Heavens Tear Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    "The spells aren't bad but I'd like to get some melee or long-ranged melee in too."

    You do realise that Plume Shot, the very first spell we ever know, isn't an elemental spell and is purely physical?

    I don't agree with you that Clerics need more power - I've never had an issue killing regular mobs when playing solo. The only time I oddly struggled for a while was around lv17-20 at the end of the Plume-zone and before heading to ADC.

    A class that is very strong at supporting should never be as equally strong in offense. This is a huge problem Guilds Wars made when they introduced the Ritualist class and it's passive spirits and powerful damage line.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xlovex
    xlovex Posts: 152 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    cleric's HURT!

    early on they solo so much better than wizards too (not venos, nothing beats having a healer/dps/tank in one class >.> god, i hate venos =P)

    if you have mp pots/mp heiro you level just as fast as those dd classes.

    plume shot tends to do much more than most other similar strength spells because its phys based, yet based on your matk (which is much higher than patk of a warrior, or even archer)

    your heals make you level even better.

    they need no help at all.

    their pvp debuffs are amazing too, seals are great, tempest is the strongest single target spell in terms of pure damage.

    what else could you ask for?

    i seriously took one look at clerics and thought wow! this is the most offensively capable support type class i've seen in any game.

    your worst enemy is your mp. solve that problem, and you're unstoppable.
  • VeritasVis - Lost City
    VeritasVis - Lost City Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Yes the 16-20 range is tought buy my cleric is full attack and lvl 55 now and it never dies, even with only 1300 hp. Even if you agro 2-3 mobs it's not problem just spam like 1 iron heart per mob and then work them into your combo based on how many mobs are up. For example if you pull 3 mobs on accident cast iron heart 3 times then take out the first mob and drop iron heart a couple more times to take out the second, drop it once more and take out the third.

    I can't speak for 60+ yet but i'm loving my FAC for now and do not feel underpowered in the least.

    -Veritas
  • jemima
    jemima Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    xlovex wrote: »
    tempest is the strongest single target spell in terms of pure damage.

    No it's not.
    Wizards, for example, have Black Ice Dragon Strike which does 100% of weapon damage+300 more than Tempest, which is a pretty large amount, and it costs the same mana, is learnt at the same level, etc, etc.
  • Livedeath - Heavens Tear
    Livedeath - Heavens Tear Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    You are forgetting the cleric's spirit's gift buff.
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    jemima wrote: »
    No it's not.
    Wizards, for example, have Black Ice Dragon Strike which does 100% of weapon damage+300 more than Tempest, which is a pretty large amount, and it costs the same mana, is learnt at the same level, etc, etc.

    Just to be clear:

    Black Ice Dragon Strike Level 10
    Range: 28.5 meters
    Mana: 516
    Channel: 4.0 seconds
    Cast: 1.6 seconds
    Cooldown: 30.0 seconds
    Weapon: Unarmed, Magic Instruments
    Requisite Cultivation: Transcendant

    Focus one's energy to summon a Water dragon that soars up to the sky and smashes onto the target and all surrounding enemies. Target and enemies in a 12.0 meter radius around target suffer Water damage equal to base magic damage plus 500% of weapon damage plus 9648.9. Has a 95% chance to slow enemies by 60% for 8.0 seconds.

    Requires 2 Spark.

    Sage version gives a 50% chance to increase magic critical hit rate by 30% for 10 seconds.
    Demon version gives a a 20% chance to cast without using Spark

    Tempest Level 10
    Range: 26.5 meters
    Mana: 516
    Channel: 4.0 seconds
    Cast: 1.5 seconds
    Cooldown: 30.0 seconds
    Weapon: Unarmed, Magic Instruments
    Requisite Cultivation: Transcendant

    Focus all of your energy to cast down countless thunder bolts at the target and enemies within a 12.0 meter radius around it, inflicting Metal damage equal to your base magic damage plus 400% of weapon damage plus 9337.1. Has a 95% chance to cause a 8.0 second reduction in speed of 60%.

    Requires 2 Spark.

    Sage version has a 50% chance to cast with only one Spark consumed.
    Demon version has a 25% chance to freeze enemies for 8 seconds.

    Now...both classes are capable of raising the damage of either element 20%

    Clerics are able to raise thier base magic attack by 70% where the Wizard cannot.

    Wizards at 79th level are able to put some serious harm down with Undine strike ( debuffs thier three main attack elements by 60% ) + <insert spell>

    Clerics at 74th are capable of debuffing both magical and physical equipment bonuses (MaDef, PDef ) by 30%

    If anyone is willing ( and bored enough ) to crunch the numbers have at.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    The above, of course, is just raw damage potential. It does not take into account Mag defence/ Phys Defence buffs, armor, shards, range, casting time...
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • X_yasuna_x - Heavens Tear
    X_yasuna_x - Heavens Tear Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    could someone message me about all the phsical attacks or buffs that you learn as a cleric. please?
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Ok...I'm bored enough and curious enough.

    Both the Wizard and the Cleric have exactly the same stats at level 100. They have exactly the same weapon ( 100th Magic Sword...forget the name ).

    So...

    Int: 460 ( sword adds to Int )
    Level: 100
    Weap: 1212-1611

    No other equips. No sockets. Just raw damage output.

    Remember the formula for base damage is (1+(MAG/100))*(Weap+Equips)

    Both the Wiz and the Cleric's base magic damage before modifiers is:
    7,347.2 - 9581.6

    Cleric has 70% buff to magic weapon damage ( Spirits Gift ). I'm going to assume that it's only to the weapon and any equipment bonuses from rings and necklace are factored out. This gives the Cleric a base damage of:
    8195.6 - 10,709.3

    For simplicities sake I'm going to factor in that both the Cleric and the Wizard have thier element damage modifiers maxed. This will add in 20% to the actual magic damage component.

    At level 10

    Black Ice Dragon Strike:

    (base magic damage)+(weapon*5)+(9648.9*.2)+(9648.9) =
    24985.88 - 29215.28

    Tempest:

    (base magic damage)+(weapon*4)+(9337.1*.2)+(9337.1) =
    24248.12 - 28,357.82
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    X_yasuna_x - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    could someone message me about all the phsical attacks or buffs that you learn as a cleric. please?

    Go here and learn young Padawan.

    http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Cosmos - Heavens Tear
    Cosmos - Heavens Tear Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Have you all completely forgotten about the little Wizard skill named Manifest Virtue?

    "Increases magic attack by (maximum mana/100)%"

    A high level Wizard is going to have a rather large mana pool - mix that with Wellspring Quaff (For 30 minutes maximum mana is increased by 60%) and their MAtt increase is going to be rather incredible.

    And to be perfectly honest, in those levels most of the time casters are going to have the Cleric MAtt buff on them anyway, as it's all about partying/TW.

    I really do wish people would just drop this. Wizards have multiple AoEs, a maintained AoE, Blade Tempest, Distance Shrink, Undine Strike with it's incredibly fast cast time.. Wizards trully are the stronger and far better suited class for dishing out damage. This is coming from a primary Cleric.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • turonga
    turonga Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    I love clerics so far, I have very fast kill timing, and the fact that my mp is pretty high gives me a new way of healing the sky!(I know it doesn't benefit me at all...actualy doing negetive effect on my but its more fun...). I love when I'm in parties, it puts the biggest responsibility on me and I like it.

    Kinda leading me to ask if clerics have any aoe skills and if their worth buying and upgrading to 10...including heal aoes..and damage if we have any..
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    AirHealer - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I've personally been a cleric for a short time. I have previously been a venomancer, a barbarian, and a wizard. I think clerics need more power. They need to be less reliant upon others. I know that clerics are supposed to be off on the side and healing but I want to do some tanking. The spells aren't bad but I'd like to get some melee or long-ranged melee in too.

    So just basically, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know but it would be great if someday clerics just got a little stronger.

    My friend, at 4 levels lower than me, hits around 6k with Plume Shot, I only hit around 4-4.5k with my axe skills. She also criticals around 20k with magic.

    More power? Bah. b:bye
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Cosmos - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Have you all completely forgotten about the little Wizard skill named Manifest Virtue?

    "Increases magic attack by (maximum mana/100)%"

    Honestly more like I didn't even look. That's pretty cool. At 100th both the Cleric and the Wiz will have ( with pure Mag ) about 9300+ in thier pool. Unfortunately Manifest Virtue is 100th level (Sage version as well). Once there are a few mages and Clerics on this server past 100th we'll have to talk about this again...until then it's a moot point. But since we are bored...
    A high level Wizard is going to have a rather large mana pool - mix that with Wellspring Quaff (For 30 minutes maximum mana is increased by 60%) and their MAtt increase is going to be rather incredible.

    So lets assume our Wizard makes it too 100th and goes sage. Let's also assume he went full Mag ( 468 Int with the sword mentioned...made a slight boo-boo with the calcs above ). We'll round base MP too 9350 for simplicities sake. Adding 60% gives us a base MP of 14960. Divide that by 100 and you get ~150% added to your weap Matk. Very nice indeed.

    Can anyone guess off the top of thier head what would ruin the Wizard's day in those thirty seconds of Uberness?
    And to be perfectly honest, in those levels most of the time casters are going to have the Cleric MAtt buff on them anyway, as it's all about partying/TW.

    I really do wish people would just drop this. Wizards have multiple AoEs, a maintained AoE, Blade Tempest, Distance Shrink, Undine Strike with it's incredibly fast cast time.. Wizards trully are the stronger and far better suited class for dishing out damage. This is coming from a primary Cleric.

    Cosmos...In case you missed it I just went after the basic stuff and said I wasn't including any of the other niftyness of both classes. My point here was not "Cleric's are better than Wizards". I *know* Wizards do higher damage. The trade off is Clerics heal ( among other things ).

    This isn't about who is "better". Both classes have thier points. Cleric's, btw, as you know have multiple AoE's and two maintained buff AoE's. What's your point? Different skill set.

    Now that that's out of the way I've still supported that Clerics can dish out some major harm should they wish to do so. They can also *take* more harm, for the most part, than Wizards can simply because of thier healing.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Nelae - Heavens Tear
    Nelae - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    As i seen so far, clerics have short cool down on their skills and mags have well a bit higher and the difference is only what 1000 dmg (and i think your calculations are a bit off)

    But in the end it balances out with very little difference.
    Thats why i stick to clerics, massive dmg and very useful.

    *I didnt see a FB TT TW or anything else without a cleric, but i did see it without a mage*
    b:dirty
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Int: 460 ( sword adds to Int )
    Level: 100
    Weap: 1212-1611

    No other equips. No sockets. Just raw damage output.

    Remember the formula for base damage is (1+(MAG/100))*(Weap+Equips)

    Both the Wiz and the Cleric's base magic damage before modifiers is:
    7,347.2 - 9581.6

    Cleric has 70% buff to magic weapon damage ( Spirits Gift ). I'm going to assume that it's only to the weapon and any equipment bonuses from rings and necklace are factored out. This gives the Cleric a base damage of:
    8195.6 - 10,709.3

    When I tried your formula, I got 6787..9022 damage for your casters before Spirits Gift and 11538..15337 for someone with Spirits Gift.
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Have you all completely forgotten about the little Wizard skill named Manifest Virtue?

    "Increases magic attack by (maximum mana/100)%"

    A high level Wizard is going to have a rather large mana pool - mix that with Wellspring Quaff (For 30 minutes maximum mana is increased by 60%) and their MAtt increase is going to be rather incredible.

    And to be perfectly honest, in those levels most of the time casters are going to have the Cleric MAtt buff on them anyway, as it's all about partying/TW.

    I really do wish people would just drop this. Wizards have multiple AoEs, a maintained AoE, Blade Tempest, Distance Shrink, Undine Strike with it's incredibly fast cast time.. Wizards trully are the stronger and far better suited class for dishing out damage. This is coming from a primary Cleric.
    Manifest is lv100, by the time a cleric AND a wizard reach level 100.
    The cleric will have 2 entertaining debuffs:
    lv11 Spirit Gift at lv92
    Demon version grants an additional 150% to magic attack for the first 10 seconds.
    And lv11 Wield Thunder at lv99
    Demon version reduces enemy's Metal resistance by 30% for 10 seconds.
    Add elemental seal on top of that (-30% equipment resistances).

    Thats a pretty high damage output there, if you manage to combo it that fast.
    Elemental Seal = 30 seconds
    Wield Thunder = 8.8 seconds (1.2 is eaten by animation).
    Spirit Gift = 7.3 seconds left
    Tempest = 1,8 seconds left
    So it must be done really fast or you will miss the maximum output.

    On the other hand, wizards get the SPAMMABLE (1s channel, 0,5s cast, 1s cooldown, 600 mana, 0 chi) undine strike at lv79, that reduces Earth Fire and Water resistances by 60%. And will be pretty much their starter before any AoE or big magic combo.
    (Retired from Perfect World)

    [SIGPIC]http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/Brain1203/smart.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    When I tried your formula, I got 6787..9022 damage for your casters before Spirits Gift and 11538..15337 for someone with Spirits Gift.

    Dunno Fleuri...I'm doing this in excel so blame MS.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Klath - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Manifest is lv100, by the time a cleric AND a wizard reach level 100.
    The cleric will have 2 entertaining debuffs:
    lv11 Spirit Gift at lv92

    And lv11 Wield Thunder at lv99

    Add elemental seal on top of that (-30% equipment resistances).

    Thats a pretty high damage output there, if you manage to combo it that fast.
    Elemental Seal = 30 seconds
    Wield Thunder = 8.8 seconds (1.2 is eaten by animation).
    Spirit Gift = 7.3 seconds left
    Tempest = 1,8 seconds left
    So it must be done really fast or you will miss the maximum output.

    On the other hand, wizards get the SPAMMABLE (1s channel, 0,5s cast, 1s cooldown, 600 mana, 0 chi) undine strike at lv79, that reduces Earth Fire and Water resistances by 60%. And will be pretty much their starter before any AoE or big magic combo.

    Yep...So once again we are down to who gets the drop on whom first. Both classes are capable of 1 shotting the other ( and most other classes ). Wizards have a slightly longer range. Clerics have slow/stun/sleep coming out of thier ears.

    It'll be fun.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Klath - Sanctuary
    Klath - Sanctuary Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Yep...So once again we are down to who gets the drop on whom first. Both classes are capable of 1 shotting the other ( and most other classes ). Wizards have a slightly longer range. Clerics have slow/stun/sleep coming out of thier ears.

    It'll be fun.
    Or they join forces and beat the **** out of everyone else.

    Just combine all debuffs, miracles will happen. :3
    (Retired from Perfect World)

    [SIGPIC]http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/Brain1203/smart.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Klath - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Or they join forces and beat the **** out of everyone else.

    Just combine all debuffs, miracles will happen. :3

    Don't think they stack but it'd be fun finding out eh? b:laugh
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • tweenskeet
    tweenskeet Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Glad there haven't been overflames or rants here.

    Cleric attacks and Wizard attacks are comparable in power, but there's still quite a margin that makes both comparable as such in their own way. It's all been stated clearly by the nice people before me, so I won't bother.. ;~;

    --to add to the Wizard + Cleric combo? Let one person hold them in place while one nukes with their Ulti-spells. It's like watching an A-Bomb fall on your head--I mean a giant dragon crashing on you, or a thunderstorm shredding you?

    What did we use to call that stuff? Fatality? -looks at organs on floors and roofs-
  • giovi
    giovi Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2009
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    Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    As i seen so far, clerics have short cool down on their skills and mags have well a bit higher and the difference is only what 1000 dmg (and i think your calculations are a bit off)

    But in the end it balances out with very little difference.
    Thats why i stick to clerics, massive dmg and very useful.

    *I didnt see a FB TT TW or anything else without a cleric, but i did see it without a mage*
    Exactly !!
    And after reading the forum on clerics, it gives a certain idea that clerics can be stopped by only wizz's or venomancer.
    If u read lots of posts on clerics u see that with a nice build u pown a lot !! (except for archers that in pvp own a bit too much with crit hits ...)
    But seriously clerics r not nurses !! theyr powning doctors !!!
    For now I dont think theyr underpowered.
    F.A.C. b:victory
    Proud {PR} member
    {PR}Johnny
  • _WillFire_ - Sanctuary
    _WillFire_ - Sanctuary Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    tweenskeet wrote: »
    Glad there haven't been overflames or rants here.

    Cleric attacks and Wizard attacks are comparable in power, but there's still quite a margin that makes both comparable as such in their own way. It's all been stated clearly by the nice people before me, so I won't bother.. ;~;

    --to add to the Wizard + Cleric combo? Let one person hold them in place while one nukes with their Ulti-spells. It's like watching an A-Bomb fall on your head--I mean a giant dragon crashing on you, or a thunderstorm shredding you?

    What did we use to call that stuff? Fatality? -looks at organs on floors and roofs-

    Seeing this in happen in TW is awesome. BM's go in and stun lock everything...Wiz and Cleric mop up. Barb walks by the bodies, ignores the stragglers, with a Cat and takes out the Castle.
    Mark 12:29-37
    _WillFire_ 8x Combat Medic
  • Nevlik - Heavens Tear
    Nevlik - Heavens Tear Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Bms can kill clerics in TW, but 1-1 pvp is difficult, and duel is impossible.
  • bloodarrowz
    bloodarrowz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    AirHealer - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I've personally been a cleric for a short time. I have previously been a venomancer, a barbarian, and a wizard. I think clerics need more power. They need to be less reliant upon others. I know that clerics are supposed to be off on the side and healing but I want to do some tanking. The spells aren't bad but I'd like to get some melee or long-ranged melee in too.

    So just basically, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know but it would be great if someday clerics just got a little stronger.

    on low level cleric does have enough power with a good plume shot and cycloon but later they got to get more ranged melee
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Livedeath - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You are forgetting the cleric's spirit's gift buff.

    Ok. Let's amend it then. When there is a cleric in the party, wizards have a substantially higher damage output.

    And seeing as 99% of parties have clerics in them, I can live with that.

    Anyone who thinks that clerics do more damage than wizards is obviously still new to the game.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I think Archer's need more power. They're already sooo weak as it is. I mean criticalling half their hits, and having 7k max attack at lv70-80, totally need to be stronger.

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