What is better for a barbarian? Evasion; Physical Resistance; + HP
What is better for a BB: Evasion, Physical Resistance, or HP? I have a barbarian at level 17. I have some equipment with evasion and some with physical resistance. What is the better attribute in general? What will be better for a barbarian? Will added HP be best one of all? I know that an accuracy ring will be the best, but I have to wait to get one. Stat for stat, if I had to choose the same level of each stat, what would be the best. All opinions, facts, and help will be greatly appreciated.
Post edited by shugaman on
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Well, I may not be the best source of info (only lvl 26), but I will give you my vision of things.
I usually keep with this order of importance : hp, phys def, accuracy, evasion.
This is because the main goal of a barb is to tank. I put hp over phys def since hp also work against magic attacks. The reason I put evasion last is because I never actually noticed any difference, and some high lvl players say there isn't in PvE (I don't know if it is true).
Consequently, when it comes to equipment, I use heavy armor, and go meanly for phys def rings, belts etc.
Since I craft my own equipment, wich means I have to craft in twofolt to keep up with the manufacturingskill lvl, I often have to choose wich one to keep, and wich one to sell. Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes it isn't. In the last case, everything depends on the situation at that moment.
When I'm lucky enough to forge equipment with sockets, I always use the hp soulgem.
I also try to get the best grade equipment (right now at lvl 26, I already have my equipment that requires lvl 27/28 ready, so I can use it as soon as I level-up)
When it comes to attribution points, make sure you got enough str. and dex. to use the latest grade heavy armor and weapons, and put the rest into vit.
Some high lvl player have calculated how much to put into each every 2 levels (you can look for that in the sticky), but I usually just look 2 or 3 levels ahead. Since I craft my equipment before I can actually use it, I know where to put my attribution points.
I hope this helps you, even if it's just a little bit. At least if you follow this you're sure not to have any problems for the next 10 levels b:victory.0 -
I just came here to ask the same question lol. Im having a hard time deciding over def and hp. Mainly my gear now is hp/vitality in the blue parts (no idea what its called in PW) and def in my sockets so it balances out a bit.0
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HP stones in armor, accuracy stones in weapon. You won't be using any evasion in your gameplay and you already have enough physical defense as it is.0
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well i've got to agree with Starang, i find it amusing that they are many players going into def, think about this, the max amount of def you can get from imbue gems is roughly 200? at high lvls, 200 def reduce roughly 10 dmg per hit, but if you go for hp, with the addition of aura, you can take more hits as compared to adding def. for weaps, it's quite straight foward, barbs don't do much dmg, rather they need higher accuracy as they misses quite often0
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Well I have a slightly different opinion on the matter.
Well HP stones are good and they do give a good amount of +HP which is useful against both magical and physical attacks.
But.....HP is lost with every hit and doesn't recover quickly enough without heavy usage of potions/heiros. Phy def on the other hand, does not diminish with each hit and provides a constant reduction in damage.
But phy def is useless against magical attacks, no? Absolutely. But a barbarian is always gonna be a close ranged fighter and at close ranges magical mobs also use physical attacks. After 5-6 physical attacks the mob starts casting again and the barbarian cancels the cast with alclarity to bear another 5-6 physical attacks.
NOTE:
This probably changes at higher levels, with mobs that only use magical casting, but up to now I have only faced one such monster type that I can remember.
Against bosses of course, you always want +HP, since you can never have enough Pdef and your priority is keeping aggro and letting the cleric keep you alive.
So my opinion is don't go full +HP (until maybe later levels), but mix HP stones with a few Pdef ones too for a better overall result.
Sure you miss the glow, but the sparkle is not bad either. b:pleasedWhen the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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HP!b:dirty0
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Trust Starang, he's right with what he's saying.
Since your hp buff triggers with it, go for it.
Hit in weapon to benefit Hit pots and also Blood Bath.0 -
yep, HP is the only one you should use.☺☻0
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Hazardus - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well I have a slightly different opinion on the matter.
Well HP stones are good and they do give a good amount of +HP which is useful against both magical and physical attacks.
But.....HP is lost with every hit and doesn't recover quickly enough without heavy usage of potions/heiros. Phy def on the other hand, does not diminish with each hit and provides a constant reduction in damage.
But phy def is useless against magical attacks, no? Absolutely. But a barbarian is always gonna be a close ranged fighter and at close ranges magical mobs also use physical attacks. After 5-6 physical attacks the mob starts casting again and the barbarian cancels the cast with alclarity to bear another 5-6 physical attacks.
NOTE:
This probably changes at higher levels, with mobs that only use magical casting, but up to now I have only faced one such monster type that I can remember.
Against bosses of course, you always want +HP, since you can never have enough Pdef and your priority is keeping aggro and letting the cleric keep you alive.
So my opinion is don't go full +HP (until maybe later levels), but mix HP stones with a few Pdef ones too for a better overall result.
Sure you miss the glow, but the sparkle is not bad either. b:pleased
No, always always always go +HP.
Look at how much damage you take. Figure out the percentage a single stone will reduce damamge and then figure out how much damage would be mitigated with a stone, and then compare that to how much health you gain from a stone of the same level. Chances are that you will end up not mitigating more damage with +PDef stones then you would have gained in health with +Health stones. Health gives you a buffer zone between killing a mob and losing XP.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Look at how much damage you take. Figure out the percentage a single stone will reduce damamge and then figure out how much damage would be mitigated with a stone, and then compare that to how much health you gain from a stone of the same level.
Hmm.....this sounds interesting, just what I've always wanted to do, but have no clue as to how exactly can I do that? Any tips are appreciated.
The Phy defense is a major issue for me, particularly since it doesn't seem to work right (for barbs at least). I was testing to find out if the shapeshifting intensity added 60% of only the base stats of the armor or of the total phydfef (stones, +stats etc.) only to find that something bugged.....neither base nor added stats appear correctly.
More detailed info on this you can go here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=148511When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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evasion b:sinevasion b:coolevasion b:flower~~~~la la la~~~~~~
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Dunno why everyone is just looking at one hit. Unless you only get hit once in a fight, that's a meaningless way to analyze it.
If you hover your mouse over your pdef score, it'll tell you the % reduction in damage. Compare the % before and after the pdef improvement (you may have to reduce your pdef by an equivalent amount to get close estimate). Then compare the +hp to your total hp and figure the percentage. Compare the percentages. Or alternatively multiply the % reduction by your total hp to figure an equivalent hp benefit, and compare the +hp vs equivalent +hp. Assuming you're only taking physical damage, whichever provides the greater improvement will benefit you more.
Example:
Say you have 2500 hp.
Say an improvement in pdef will give an extra 3% reduction in damage.
Say an improvement in hp will give an extra 50 hp.
A 3% reduction in damage is equivalent to an extra 75 hp in survivability. That is, if you would have taken 2500 damage before, you will now take 2425 damage and still be alive by 75 hp.
An extra 50 hp only improves your survivability by 2%. If you would have taken 2500 damage before, you'll still take 2500 damage and be alive by 50 hp. So in this example, you'd be better off improving pdef.
Obviously there are other factors. +hp improves survivability against magic damage, pdef does not. pdef improves the effectiveness of heals (each heal will replace more hits worth of damage), +hp does not. etc.
Guardian charms don't fundamentally change the above comparison. If you're using a charm, it'll tick when you take 1250 damage. A 3% damage reduction means you can take the equivalent of 1287 damage before it ticks. An extra 50 hp means you'll take 1275 damage before it ticks. So the pdef is still better for this example. Increased hp will cause you to burn up charms quicker though (since each time they tick they'll restore 50% of your hp).0 -
You should put Mag.Res into your armor, and Mag.Att into your weapons. b:victory0
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Nice write up Solandri. Interesting poinst.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Example:
Say you have 2500 hp.
Say an improvement in pdef will give an extra 3% reduction in damage.
Say an improvement in hp will give an extra 50 hp.
A 3% reduction in damage is equivalent to an extra 75 hp in survivability.
How did you come up with that figure? Thats my missing link, tying % def to HP lost per hit.
EDIT: You seem to be thinking that % damage reduction is in % of your total HP? I doubt that's correct. As I understand it, if a mob does 1000 dmg, then a 3% more dmg reduction is 30 hp saved per hit.
Am I right?
BTW I found that % doesn't increase or decrease linearly. I removed a certain armor piece and it brought my % def down from 71% to 63% and it worked out as reducing 270 pdef per 1%. I then removed a second armor piece and brought my % def down from 63% to 61% and it worked out as 240 pdef per 1%.
I'm real confused now. Anyone care to explain why that is so?
Thats what I have done atm, and I am regretting it. The occasional magic hit that I take does have a good reduction, but I am paying more for the physical damage incurred way more frequently.XAsch - Sanctuary wrote: »You should put Mag.Res into your armor, and Mag.Att into your weapons. b:victoryWhen the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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Essentially there's only one breakpoint of interest: 0 hp - when you die.Hazardus - Heavens Tear wrote: »How did you come up with that figure? Thats my missing link, tying % def to HP lost per hit.
EDIT: You seem to be thinking that % damage reduction is in % of your total HP? I doubt that's correct. As I understand it, if a mob does 1000 dmg, then a 3% more dmg reduction is 30 hp saved per hit.
Am I right?
If you only take one hit of 1000 damage, then it doesn't really matter whether you choose to go with 3% extra damage reduction or +50 hp. You'll still be alive after that one hit.
The only time the extra damage reduction or hp will make a difference is if you would have died without them. That happens after you've taken 2500 damage, so the breakpoint you're interested in is 2500 damage. 3% reduction applied to 2500 damage leaves you alive by 75 hp. 2500 damage applied to 2550 hp leaves you alive by 50 hp.
It isn't linear. I've been plotting it and trying to reverse engineer whatever formula they're using, but I haven't had much time to work on it (my main is a veno and I've been mostly working on some pet stat stuff). The higher your pdef goes, the less benefit you receive for each additional point of pdef. Diminishing returns and all.BTW I found that % doesn't increase or decrease linearly. I removed a certain armor piece and it brought my % def down from 71% to 63% and it worked out as reducing 270 pdef per 1%. I then removed a second armor piece and brought my % def down from 63% to 61% and it worked out as 240 pdef per 1%.
I'm real confused now. Anyone care to explain why that is so?
It's not a function that goes through (0 pdef,0 reduction) and (infinite pdef,100% reduction) either. I think they had trouble finding a function which did that since they also made opponent level part of the equation. As near as I can tell by eyeballing the curves, if you could get your pdef high enough, you could theoretically go over 100% reduction. Realistically you can't get your pdef that high in the game, but the forumla would allow it.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Dunno why everyone is just looking at one hit. Unless you only get hit once in a fight, that's a meaningless way to analyze it.
If you hover your mouse over your pdef score, it'll tell you the % reduction in damage. Compare the % before and after the pdef improvement (you may have to reduce your pdef by an equivalent amount to get close estimate). Then compare the +hp to your total hp and figure the percentage. Compare the percentages. Or alternatively multiply the % reduction by your total hp to figure an equivalent hp benefit, and compare the +hp vs equivalent +hp. Assuming you're only taking physical damage, whichever provides the greater improvement will benefit you more.
Example:
Say you have 2500 hp.
Say an improvement in pdef will give an extra 3% reduction in damage.
Say an improvement in hp will give an extra 50 hp.
A 3% reduction in damage is equivalent to an extra 75 hp in survivability. That is, if you would have taken 2500 damage before, you will now take 2425 damage and still be alive by 75 hp.
An extra 50 hp only improves your survivability by 2%. If you would have taken 2500 damage before, you'll still take 2500 damage and be alive by 50 hp. So in this example, you'd be better off improving pdef.
Obviously there are other factors. +hp improves survivability against magic damage, pdef does not. pdef improves the effectiveness of heals (each heal will replace more hits worth of damage), +hp does not. etc.
Guardian charms don't fundamentally change the above comparison. If you're using a charm, it'll tick when you take 1250 damage. A 3% damage reduction means you can take the equivalent of 1287 damage before it ticks. An extra 50 hp means you'll take 1275 damage before it ticks. So the pdef is still better for this example. Increased hp will cause you to burn up charms quicker though (since each time they tick they'll restore 50% of your hp).
NO NO NO NO NO AND NO
DR = Damage Reduction which is the amount of incoming damage mitigated (reduced) by your armor which has nothing to do with how much health you have. The amount of health you have tells you how much damage you can take before you die.
If a mob would hit you for 100 damage, and you have 33% DR due to your armor, then you only take 67. If you gain an additional 3% DR (increases to 36% DR) then you will take 64 instead of 67 a reduction of an additional 3 points of damage. Now, most health gems will give more health than the armor gems will reduce since most armor gems I've so far seen will not increase your armor enough to increase it more than 1%. AFAIK the gems scale the same at the higher levels as they do at the lower levels meaning you will get the same benefits from them.
We can use bigger numbers, though.
Let's say the incoming damage was 500, and your DR was 49%. 249 of the damage gets mitigated, and you take 251 damage. Now, that's 5 damage mitigated (reduced) per % of DR due to armor. If you increase your armor by 3%, that's 15 damage reduced taking it up to 52% DR. How much armor does it take to increase your DR by 3%? I was upgrading my Venomancers armor, and it took about 70ish armor to gain a 2-3% DR, and that was an upgrade from level 3 chest to a level 4 chest piece, not a socket.
But don't take my word for it. Take two identical sets of armor, or the same one. Gem it with heath stones and go out and fight mobs your level and record the results. Then switch the gems to armor gems and repeat. It would not surprise me if the results pointed out that health gems gave you more survivability then armor gems did.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Like I said, if you have 2500 hp, who cares if you take 236 damage, 251 damage, or even 500 damage? The only point where you'd care is when you've taken enough damage to kill you - 2500 points damage.OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Let's say the incoming damage was 500, and your DR was 49%. 249 of the damage gets mitigated, and you take 251 damage. Now, that's 5 damage mitigated (reduced) per % of DR due to armor. If you increase your armor by 3%, that's 15 damage reduced taking it up to 52% DR.
Put another way, those of you looking at only one hit are incorrectly applying the +hp bonus multiple times. If you get hit for 250, you're saying +50 hp means a +50 hp buffer against the 250 damage. But who cares if you're only hit once. If you've got 2500 hp and get hit 10 times, now you're facing death. The +50 hp doesn't get applied 10 times, once for each hit. It gets distributed across those 10 hits, and only works out to +5 hp per hit. Meanwhile a 3% damage reduction would work out to a 7.5 hp saved per hit.
Put yet another way:
Base case: You have 2500 hp, and are getting hit for 100 damage per hit.
You can survive 25 hits.
Upgrade 1 case: +50 hp
You now have 2550 hp
You can survive 2550 / 100 = 25.5 hits
Upgrade 2 case: damage reduction increased by 3%
You still have 2500 hp
Each hit does 100 - 3% = 97 damage
You can now survive 2500 / 97 = 25.77 hits
Ergo the damage reduction gives you better survivability in this example. Your survivability depends on your total hp, and the upgrade's hp bonus or damage reduction. If you have 500 hp, a +50 hp upgrade increases your survivability by 10%. If you have 5000 hp, a +50 hp upgrade only improves your survivability by 1%. Your total hp matters.
The numbers I gave were merely to illustrate how to carry out the analysis. It may very well be that pdef bonuses suck and the +hp bonuses are always better.How much armor does it take to increase your DR by 3%? I was upgrading my Venomancers armor, and it took about 70ish armor to gain a 2-3% DR, and that was an upgrade from level 3 chest to a level 4 chest piece, not a socket.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Like I said, if you have 2500 hp, who cares if you take 236 damage, 251 damage, or even 500 damage? The only point where you'd care is when you've taken enough damage to kill you - 2500 points damage.
Put another way, those of you looking at only one hit are incorrectly applying the +hp bonus multiple times. If you get hit for 250, you're saying +50 hp means a +50 hp buffer against the 250 damage. But who cares if you're only hit once. If you've got 2500 hp and get hit 10 times, now you're facing death. The +50 hp doesn't get applied 10 times, once for each hit. It gets distributed across those 10 hits, and only works out to +5 hp per hit. Meanwhile a 3% damage reduction would work out to a 7.5 hp saved per hit.
Put yet another way:
Base case: You have 2500 hp, and are getting hit for 100 damage per hit.
You can survive 25 hits.
Upgrade 1 case: +50 hp
You now have 2550 hp
You can survive 2550 / 100 = 25.5 hits
Upgrade 2 case: damage reduction increased by 3%
You still have 2500 hp
Each hit does 100 - 3% = 97 damage
You can now survive 2500 / 97 = 25.77 hits
Ergo the damage reduction gives you better survivability in this example. Your survivability depends on your total hp, and the upgrade's hp bonus or damage reduction. If you have 500 hp, a +50 hp upgrade increases your survivability by 10%. If you have 5000 hp, a +50 hp upgrade only improves your survivability by 1%. Your total hp matters.
The numbers I gave were merely to illustrate how to carry out the analysis. It may very well be that pdef bonuses suck and the +hp bonuses are always better.
Your math is wrong.
1.) 53 armor at the level of that shard (Level 8) is probably 1% at best.
2.) You probably already have a high DR already.
3.) At that level you are probably taking a lot more than 100 damage per hit. As stated before more health gives you a a larger health pool which means you can soak more damage before dying which means the healer won't have to get every heal in on time because you don't have a big health pool.
Socketed shards add up. At that level 5 sockets become 250 health, but it's not entirely a given that those 5 sockets will become 5%, or anything even remotely close. Maybe 2%. Do you want to argue 2% DR being more viable than 250 hard health? Maybe only 4 sockets were health in which case it's only 200 health.
Ever play a healer in a group before? I have, and I'd rather have a tank who had a bigger health pool than one who had 1-2% more DR, and a lower health pool.
One final note: 50 health will always be 50 health while 53 armor won't always give the same level of DR as you gain levels.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Solandri, thank you. Your solution of doing the problem from the known breakpoint of 0 HP is brilliant. I wish I'd thought of it, but now I will definitely use this as the way to establish the numerical basis for comparisons.0
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It's right.OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Your math is wrong.
It's the same math I used in UO, EQ, DAOC, etc.
Like I said, the numbers I picked were for illustration only. It may be that +pdef upgrades suck relative to +hp upgrades, and that +hp is always better.1.) 53 armor at the level of that shard (Level 8) is probably 1% at best.
Actually, the higher your current DR, the greater impact +1% DR will have on your survivability.2.) You probably already have a high DR already.
If your DR is 0%, and you increase it by 1%, you've lengthened your survivability by (100 - 0) / (100 - 1) = 1.01%
If your DR is 90%, and you increase it by 1%, you've lengthened your survivability by (100 - 90) / (100 - 91) = 11%
This is why I've been trying to figure out what formula the game uses to go from pdef to % damage reduction. The pdef -> % damage reduction is nonlinear and has diminishing returns. But that doesn't necessarily mean pdef -> survival time has diminishing returns.
The amount of damage you take per hit is irrelevant. All that matters is your total hp. I just gave examples which used damage per hit as an alternative way to think about it. In my 100 damage per hit example, the survivability numbers were 25, 25.5, and 25.7731959... Those are a ratio of 100%, 102%, and 103.09%.3.) At that level you are probably taking a lot more than 100 damage per hit.
If you were to assume 250 damage per hit, you'd get survival times of:
base case: 2500 / 250 = 10 hits
upgrade 1: 2550 / 250 = 10.2 hits
upgrade 2 = 2500 / (250*.97) = 10.3 hits
A 100% to 102% to 103.09% ratio
If you were to assume 500 damage per hit, you'd get survival times of:
base case: 2500 / 500 = 5 hits
upgrade 1: 2550 / 500 = 5.1 hits
upgrade 2 : 2500 / (500*.97) = 5.1546... hits
A 100% to 102% to 103.09% ratio
So regardless of of the amount of damage per hit, the ratio of survival times remains the same. And in fact you can calculate those ratios directly using the other methods I explained:
base case: 2500 hp / 2500 hp = 100%
upgrade 1: +50 hp / 2500 hp = 0.02 = 2% improvement, or 2550 / 2500 = 102%
upgrade 2: +3% DR from 0% DR => 2500 / (1 - 0.03) = 2500 / 0.97. (2500 / 0.97) / 2500 = 103.09%
Improved DR does the same thing. You have the same hp, but you take less damage. So the same damage as before affects your hp less, and you can soak up more of it. And in fact for a healer, the +DR is almost always preferable since the heals would replenish more hits worth of damage.As stated before more health gives you a a larger health pool which means you can soak more damage before dying which means the healer won't have to get every heal in on time because you don't have a big health pool.
e.g. If you're got 2500 hp and are getting hit for 500 damage, and your cleric's heal replenishes 1500 hp, your cleric has to heal you once every 3 hits.
If you add a +50 hp upgrade, you're still taking 500 damage. Your cleric still has to heal you once every 3 hits.
If you add a +1% DR upgrade (which improves your survival time less than the +50 hp), you're now taking 495 damage per hit (the actual damage per hit depends on your initial DR, so far I've assumed you started with 0% DR). Your cleric now can heal you less often - once every 3.03 hits.
If in the initial case the cleric was barely able to keep up with the damage by continuously spamming heals, the +hp doesn't help any. The +DR however lets him cast fewer heals, letting your party take on mobs which inflict damage at a higher rate and still survive.
I could go into this further, but it probably belongs on the cleric board. And this game is rather unique in that it has a stacking heal-over-time which clerics use as their primary heal. That introduces some dynamics and inefficiencies which alter the analysis subtly.
Like I said, the numbers I picked were for illustration only -- so others could see how to do the analysis themselves. It very well may be that the +DR upgrades suck relative to the +hp upgrades as you say.Socketed shards add up. At that level 5 sockets become 250 health, but it's not entirely a given that those 5 sockets will become 5%, or anything even remotely close. Maybe 2%. Do you want to argue 2% DR being more viable than 250 hard health? Maybe only 4 sockets were health in which case it's only 200 health.
The whole point of all this was to show that which is better depends on your hp and DR before you do the upgrade. There are situations where the tank having a bigger hp pool will be better, and there are situations where having 1-2% more DR is better.Ever play a healer in a group before? I have, and I'd rather have a tank who had a bigger health pool than one who had 1-2% more DR, and a lower health pool.0 -
Hmm, Solandri your second way of explaining it made more sense to me. The first time around I was thinking, whats this guy on about? I'm not worried about being 1 shotted. But I see how you were looking at it.
I did my calculations using PWI database (duh why didnt I think about using that before b:embarrass) and am happy to say they have been field tested.
Ok heres my calculation.
The average level 66 monster does 458 to 559 physical damage (interesting that most mobs of the same level have similar dmg range, a fact I wasn't aware of until yesterday).
So on average every 1% increase in dmg reduction results in me taking 5 less dmg per hit.
Assuming a lvl 5 soulstone grants me an increase of 1%pdef (note this is a variable and needs to be verified taking into account the tigerform's extra 60% pdef), a lvl 5 HP stone would increase my HP by 37.5 (assuming buffed HP).
Assuming in a fight I take 10 hits, over the fight:
With a 1%DR increase I have saved 50HP.
With the +37.5 HP bonus I have more HP but I lost more than 37.5 HP.
So against the mobs at my level its still better for me to go with some added pdef.
Of course at higher levels, the amount of pdef required to increase 1%DR probably increases beyond the scope of the soulstones (since the pdef to %DR conversion is unknown) and then the HP stones would be a better choice. Also against the magical attacks +HP is always the saviour.
Final Conclusion: Its pointless to go on debating this until the pdef to %DR conversion can be established.When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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Hazardus - Heavens Tear wrote: »Final Conclusion: Its pointless to go on debating this until the pdef to %DR conversion can be established.
Ok, you guys got me to put aside the veno pet stat stuff I was working on and work on this one. b:laugh Try this. It seems to match pretty closely with most of my characters. It checks out with my L27, L30, and L41 characters. It's slightly off for my level 9 character:
Damage Reduction % = 100 * def / (def + 40*lvl)
def = p.def or m.def
lvl = your character level
The game says the %DR is against a same level enemy. I have no way to test it against different level enemies, so the actual formula is probably more complicated and takes opponent level into account. Also, contrary to my earlier guess, you cannot reach 100% DR. In fact the higher level you are, the less DR you receive for a given amount of p.def (against an opponent of your level - I'm guessing the DR remains the same against or improves against opponents of your previous level).
If the formula checks out, I'll see if I can slap together a web page to do the DR% calcs and +hp vs +pdef comparisons. That way those of you not mathematically inclined can do the comparisons relatively easily.0 -
this is quite an interesting discussion, i think hp stones are most probably better then phys def ones, certainly at higher lvl, simply because at higher lvl the requirement of 1% increase gets so high that all the phys def stones on your gear might increase it for 1%, maybe not even that.
some numbers at lvl 77, in human form:
4963 phys def is 61% reduce.
5274 is 63%
5525 is 64%
this was just done by removing and equipping some jewelry, but anyways, here we see approx. 560 def that gives a 3% reduce. you need a lot of stones to get a 1% increase like this, while hp stones always help0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Ok, you guys got me to put aside the veno pet stat stuff I was working on and work on this one. b:laugh Try this. It seems to match pretty closely with most of my characters. It checks out with my L27, L30, and L41 characters. It's slightly off for my level 9 character:
Damage Reduction % = 100 * def / (def + 40*lvl)
def = p.def or m.def
lvl = your character level
The game says the %DR is against a same level enemy. I have no way to test it against different level enemies, so the actual formula is probably more complicated and takes opponent level into account.
I think that that means that you should be using monster level instead of your level, to find your damage reduction percent when fighting monsters that have different levels than you.
And that "slightly off for your level 9 character" thing probably means that some small constant is being added (probably in the denominator, to help low level characters).0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I think that that means that you should be using monster level instead of your level, to find your damage reduction percent when fighting monsters that have different levels than you.
Sounds about right. More % DR against low level mobs and less against higher level mobs.
Sweet! Things are finally starting to make sense. b:pleased b:pleasedWhen the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
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Hazardus - Heavens Tear wrote: »Thats what I have done atm, and I am regretting it. The occasional magic hit that I take does have a good reduction, but I am paying more for the physical damage incurred way more frequently.
Ahhah, I was joking. HP shards FTW. They take damage from both forms of attacks, and when Krimson / FB69 bosses debuff your DEF, you really need the HP until the cleric(s) see and purify you.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's right. It's the same math I used in UO, EQ, DAOC, etc.
Like I said, the numbers I picked were for illustration only. It may be that +pdef upgrades suck relative to +hp upgrades, and that +hp is always better.
Actually, the higher your current DR, the greater impact +1% DR will have on your survivability.
If your DR is 0%, and you increase it by 1%, you've lengthened your survivability by (100 - 0) / (100 - 1) = 1.01%
If your DR is 90%, and you increase it by 1%, you've lengthened your survivability by (100 - 90) / (100 - 91) = 11%
This is why I've been trying to figure out what formula the game uses to go from pdef to % damage reduction. The pdef -> % damage reduction is nonlinear and has diminishing returns. But that doesn't necessarily mean pdef -> survival time has diminishing returns.
The amount of damage you take per hit is irrelevant. All that matters is your total hp. I just gave examples which used damage per hit as an alternative way to think about it. In my 100 damage per hit example, the survivability numbers were 25, 25.5, and 25.7731959... Those are a ratio of 100%, 102%, and 103.09%.
If you were to assume 250 damage per hit, you'd get survival times of:
base case: 2500 / 250 = 10 hits
upgrade 1: 2550 / 250 = 10.2 hits
upgrade 2 = 2500 / (250*.97) = 10.3 hits
A 100% to 102% to 103.09% ratio
If you were to assume 500 damage per hit, you'd get survival times of:
base case: 2500 / 500 = 5 hits
upgrade 1: 2550 / 500 = 5.1 hits
upgrade 2 : 2500 / (500*.97) = 5.1546... hits
A 100% to 102% to 103.09% ratio
So regardless of of the amount of damage per hit, the ratio of survival times remains the same. And in fact you can calculate those ratios directly using the other methods I explained:
base case: 2500 hp / 2500 hp = 100%
upgrade 1: +50 hp / 2500 hp = 0.02 = 2% improvement, or 2550 / 2500 = 102%
upgrade 2: +3% DR from 0% DR => 2500 / (1 - 0.03) = 2500 / 0.97. (2500 / 0.97) / 2500 = 103.09%
Improved DR does the same thing. You have the same hp, but you take less damage. So the same damage as before affects your hp less, and you can soak up more of it. And in fact for a healer, the +DR is almost always preferable since the heals would replenish more hits worth of damage.
e.g. If you're got 2500 hp and are getting hit for 500 damage, and your cleric's heal replenishes 1500 hp, your cleric has to heal you once every 3 hits.
If you add a +50 hp upgrade, you're still taking 500 damage. Your cleric still has to heal you once every 3 hits.
If you add a +1% DR upgrade (which improves your survival time less than the +50 hp), you're now taking 495 damage per hit (the actual damage per hit depends on your initial DR, so far I've assumed you started with 0% DR). Your cleric now can heal you less often - once every 3.03 hits.
If in the initial case the cleric was barely able to keep up with the damage by continuously spamming heals, the +hp doesn't help any. The +DR however lets him cast fewer heals, letting your party take on mobs which inflict damage at a higher rate and still survive.
I could go into this further, but it probably belongs on the cleric board. And this game is rather unique in that it has a stacking heal-over-time which clerics use as their primary heal. That introduces some dynamics and inefficiencies which alter the analysis subtly.
Like I said, the numbers I picked were for illustration only -- so others could see how to do the analysis themselves. It very well may be that the +DR upgrades suck relative to the +hp upgrades as you say.
The whole point of all this was to show that which is better depends on your hp and DR before you do the upgrade. There are situations where the tank having a bigger hp pool will be better, and there are situations where having 1-2% more DR is better.
Your math is irrelevant and wrong because you are assuming a 3% DR for your calculations.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Correct answer is Magic Resistance stones. Haha.
But seriously, at later levels, those little HP stones will make close to no difference out of 16k+ hp. Considering this, if I somehow obtain enough stones that give me an overall benefit 1000 hp bonus, that may seem like a lot.
But now consider this - if you're tanking a boss with clerics healing you, and you have 16k hp, will you need to rely on this 1k bonus? Some will say, "Well, duh, we're tanks! We need to get as much HP as possible."
Well I'm sorry to say, if you started out with 16k hp tanking a boss, and you're done to relying on 1k, I think you're pretty much dead already. At least, you'll be dead REAL soon.
This gets even more drastic in pking. Archers will be critting you 10,000 dmg with thunder spikes, mages will be nuking for even more. Even 2000 Hp will make close to no difference.
Barbarians have low magic defense to begin with, so why not give that a slight boost? When tanking higher level bosses, you will find that you die NOT because you lack phys def or you're off by 50 hp, it'll be because you timed your Alacrity wrong and the boss stomps you for 5000 dmg with magic then another 4000 hit.
Look at our other option, physical resistance stones? We have high enough physical resistance, believe me. Even take away 1000 phys resistance from all Barbarians, and we're still hard to topple with phyiscal attacks. And if you go sage mode, you get 120% extra physical defense in tiger form! A few stones will make no big deal.
And honestly, in PK, no blademaster or barbarian is going to be dumb enough to try and break your hiero with **** melee skills; it just doesn't work. When you die endgame, it's going to be because you died from magic.0 -
OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »Your math is wrong.
....
Ever play a healer in a group before? I have, and I'd rather have a tank who had a bigger health pool than one who had 1-2% more DR, and a lower health pool.
?? If healers heal a set # of health, then DR would have an advantage over the hard hp. The other statement would only be true if the damage % rate of total health was the same. Really, we need a graph of the reduction %. Shouldn't this be easy for a high lvl to make? (eg just remove add random pieces of armor). The math is NOT wrong, the rates just need to be determined.0 -
Daibar - Heavens Tear wrote: »?? If healers heal a set # of health, then DR would have an advantage over the hard hp. The other statement would only be true if the damage % rate of total health was the same. Really, we need a graph of the reduction %. Shouldn't this be easy for a high lvl to make? (eg just remove add random pieces of armor). The math is NOT wrong, the rates just need to be determined.
Any one can do it. Solandri formula works to calculate %DR against a given level mob with your current pdef. Im gonna assume a lvl66 monster. Ravaging Yayan. Physical attack 458 - 559 (source: pwidatabase).
Now I have 70% DR. So I should get hit 0.3(458-559) = 137-168. Which is tested to be true (on avg got hit 150). Or another way to look at it is every %DR increase saves me 5HP per hit.
If another lvl66 mob hit me 1000. At 70% DR Id get hit 300. Here every %DR increased is saving me 10HP per hit.
The numbers seem small, but they make a BIG difference.
The problem is that the amount of pdef increase required to increase %DR gets insane as your level increases ( bit like the xp requirements b:laugh)
So at very high levels, HP shards might be a better option. Or as has been suggested even mag def shards since the %DR for mag will have a better benefit from even a small magdef increase (due to a lower %DR to begin with).When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=7608420
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