Nostalgia - The Story of One Disappointment
Dimiter - Lost City
Posts: 150 Arc User
"You're undermining my authority."
This is what I received from Nostalgia's leader, Falon, as thanks for what I'd been doing in the last two months in her faction. This is how I was treated when I tried to help Nostalgia become a real community of mature and intelligent people.
As we like to say in my country, "No good deed goes unpunished". Here, I'm dealing with the exact type of situation. I try to lend a helping hand and make things easier for the leader, yet I get accused of challenging her.
But let me start from the beginning. I joined Nostalgia in the middle of October because a good friend of mine (and ex-leader) had gone there and I thought the guild seemed like the very thing I needed - a community of mature and fun people, especially since my previous guild had died. At first it was all nice and most of Nostalgia's members made a good impression on me. They made me feel like I was part of something bigger. When I needed help, they came to help, when they needed help, I tried to help them.
Another important thing is that at the beginning random PK-ing wasn't allowed. This made it easier for people who were more casual with the game to still be able to play without worrying all the time about being KOS-ed by various players and guilds. As time passed, more and more people became part of this community. Some of them had different tastes and ideas on how things like PK-ing should be handled. Some of them weren't afraid to speak their mind about how they felt towards Falon's policy of no random PK-ing. And I don't think they ever felt embarrassed about doing that openly, even though what they were suggesting esentially contradicted official guild policy at that time.
As more time passed, this small group of people became more determined to get what they wanted. And one day, less than a week ago, they achieved it. One of the most vocal supporters of random PK-ing posted a set of guidelines on how it will be treated by the guild and other general information in the guild's forum. Also, they said it was all with Falon's consent but it'd been posted in the Rules section so that clarification wasn't really necessary.
Now, before you start thinking 'That carebear left cause the rules were changed, haha', no, that's not how or why it happened. I'd accepted the ideas put into these official guidelines and thought they were a nice basis for something more detailed and possibly improved. Thus, the idea of a PK Code was born. I thought that probably Falon didn't have much time to take care of everything, so I could lend a hand, as I'd done with bumping Nostalgia's recruitment thread (for the past month Falon hadn't posted on it just once, you can check the time stamps). I wrote a long and detailed Code that included principles, on which the proposed rules were based, brand new terms to suit the guild's needs, rules that were much more detailed and developed than what was in the official guidelines, and most importantly, a set of specific and commonly encountered scenarios to help understand the rules and how they will be enforced in the different cases. I also pointed out that the proposed Code still needed a lot of work and welcomed feedback by all members in order to improve it further. And last but not least, I pointed out that this was purely a suggestion, it was in the Discussion section.
Many of our unranked members, as well as some executors read it and some commented pointing out its strengths and weaknesses. However, Falon didn't even indicate to have read it. She just wanted to know why I'd written it. So, I started writing again, a long and detailed post about the plenty of reasons I thought why such a Code was necessary, even if it wasn't mine or if mine got altered althogether. I made a comparisson between the general guidelines she had given, which could be thought of as a Constitution and my code, as it was more detailed, could be a proposed Legislation. I said what I'd written could supplement the more general guidelines, in order to provide a more complete and fair system of rules.
Up to this, I had never intended to somehow stand in Falon's way or to disagree on something fundamentally. However, you can probably imagine my bewilderment when on the next day my Code was gone from the boards. It'd been deleted. I was very unpleasantly surprised and when I asked about it in guild chat, I received almost no replies. Only Falon confirmed that she had deleted it. When I inquired about her reasons, she was evasive and didn't want to speak in front of the other guild members. She tried to hide her reasons by stating that my Code was identical to what she'd posted and so on. I didn't like being lied to so I waited until she admitted something I'd thought I'd never see a leader do. Apparently, by posting this very detailed and well-developed thread, I'd 'undermined her authority' and even 'challenged' her.
It had never occurred to me that by trying to help someone establish their authority, I actually undermine it. Nor had I thought of making suggestions as 'outstepping' my boundaries. And I used to think that Nostalgia is a mature faction where people actually had outgrown their egoism and had begun to work together, as a team, in order to constantly improve their gaming experience. It seems, however, that I was wrong. Never in my life (or in my gaming experience, for that matter) have I been regarded as a potential threat when all I ever wanted to achieve was a better environment for all our members. Never before had I witnessed my labour be so unappreciated and my opinion censored, because, apparently, I'm an intimidating person.
And when I think of the two months that I was part of Nostalgia, the 3 times I got up at 6 AM just to take part in TWs, even the one with BloodLusT which had its outcome predetermined, and all the times I donated almost all I'd had to the guild to raise funds for TW, I get this feeling of injustice. The feeling of being deceived.
Normally, I wouldn't post this here. However, the instant I left Nostalgia, I was banned from the guild's forum, probably because Falon was afraid I could post something there. Furthermore, I feel a sense of obligation to warn people what they could be in for, if they join Nostalgia. I feel that this faction and its leader in particular have betrayed the word maturity.
And because Falon seems to be such a celebrity on Lost City and many people are attracted to join her guild due to its description of a mature and fun faction, I want to make you see her true colors. What kind of leader is intimidated by their own members (and a lowly executor, no less) and tries to erase their suggestions? What kind of person demonstrates no appreciation whatsoever for the many goods that someone does to them? What kind of guild is this that claims to be mature when its leader shows no sign of maturity?
During my contemplations, I finally managed to understand what the guild's name meant. It's "a bittersweet yearning for the things of the past" for sure, but I also came up with a theory at what it was directed. And now I know. It's nostalgia for the bygone days of the totalitarian dictators. I think Falon does a great job following in their footsteps, even if it's just in a game.
I guess everyone who isn't that nostalgic and is looking for a mature faction will have to wait for a long time till something new and more appropriate finally appears to live up to the expectations of the more mature audience.
Thank you for your time.
This is what I received from Nostalgia's leader, Falon, as thanks for what I'd been doing in the last two months in her faction. This is how I was treated when I tried to help Nostalgia become a real community of mature and intelligent people.
As we like to say in my country, "No good deed goes unpunished". Here, I'm dealing with the exact type of situation. I try to lend a helping hand and make things easier for the leader, yet I get accused of challenging her.
But let me start from the beginning. I joined Nostalgia in the middle of October because a good friend of mine (and ex-leader) had gone there and I thought the guild seemed like the very thing I needed - a community of mature and fun people, especially since my previous guild had died. At first it was all nice and most of Nostalgia's members made a good impression on me. They made me feel like I was part of something bigger. When I needed help, they came to help, when they needed help, I tried to help them.
Another important thing is that at the beginning random PK-ing wasn't allowed. This made it easier for people who were more casual with the game to still be able to play without worrying all the time about being KOS-ed by various players and guilds. As time passed, more and more people became part of this community. Some of them had different tastes and ideas on how things like PK-ing should be handled. Some of them weren't afraid to speak their mind about how they felt towards Falon's policy of no random PK-ing. And I don't think they ever felt embarrassed about doing that openly, even though what they were suggesting esentially contradicted official guild policy at that time.
As more time passed, this small group of people became more determined to get what they wanted. And one day, less than a week ago, they achieved it. One of the most vocal supporters of random PK-ing posted a set of guidelines on how it will be treated by the guild and other general information in the guild's forum. Also, they said it was all with Falon's consent but it'd been posted in the Rules section so that clarification wasn't really necessary.
Now, before you start thinking 'That carebear left cause the rules were changed, haha', no, that's not how or why it happened. I'd accepted the ideas put into these official guidelines and thought they were a nice basis for something more detailed and possibly improved. Thus, the idea of a PK Code was born. I thought that probably Falon didn't have much time to take care of everything, so I could lend a hand, as I'd done with bumping Nostalgia's recruitment thread (for the past month Falon hadn't posted on it just once, you can check the time stamps). I wrote a long and detailed Code that included principles, on which the proposed rules were based, brand new terms to suit the guild's needs, rules that were much more detailed and developed than what was in the official guidelines, and most importantly, a set of specific and commonly encountered scenarios to help understand the rules and how they will be enforced in the different cases. I also pointed out that the proposed Code still needed a lot of work and welcomed feedback by all members in order to improve it further. And last but not least, I pointed out that this was purely a suggestion, it was in the Discussion section.
Many of our unranked members, as well as some executors read it and some commented pointing out its strengths and weaknesses. However, Falon didn't even indicate to have read it. She just wanted to know why I'd written it. So, I started writing again, a long and detailed post about the plenty of reasons I thought why such a Code was necessary, even if it wasn't mine or if mine got altered althogether. I made a comparisson between the general guidelines she had given, which could be thought of as a Constitution and my code, as it was more detailed, could be a proposed Legislation. I said what I'd written could supplement the more general guidelines, in order to provide a more complete and fair system of rules.
Up to this, I had never intended to somehow stand in Falon's way or to disagree on something fundamentally. However, you can probably imagine my bewilderment when on the next day my Code was gone from the boards. It'd been deleted. I was very unpleasantly surprised and when I asked about it in guild chat, I received almost no replies. Only Falon confirmed that she had deleted it. When I inquired about her reasons, she was evasive and didn't want to speak in front of the other guild members. She tried to hide her reasons by stating that my Code was identical to what she'd posted and so on. I didn't like being lied to so I waited until she admitted something I'd thought I'd never see a leader do. Apparently, by posting this very detailed and well-developed thread, I'd 'undermined her authority' and even 'challenged' her.
It had never occurred to me that by trying to help someone establish their authority, I actually undermine it. Nor had I thought of making suggestions as 'outstepping' my boundaries. And I used to think that Nostalgia is a mature faction where people actually had outgrown their egoism and had begun to work together, as a team, in order to constantly improve their gaming experience. It seems, however, that I was wrong. Never in my life (or in my gaming experience, for that matter) have I been regarded as a potential threat when all I ever wanted to achieve was a better environment for all our members. Never before had I witnessed my labour be so unappreciated and my opinion censored, because, apparently, I'm an intimidating person.
And when I think of the two months that I was part of Nostalgia, the 3 times I got up at 6 AM just to take part in TWs, even the one with BloodLusT which had its outcome predetermined, and all the times I donated almost all I'd had to the guild to raise funds for TW, I get this feeling of injustice. The feeling of being deceived.
Normally, I wouldn't post this here. However, the instant I left Nostalgia, I was banned from the guild's forum, probably because Falon was afraid I could post something there. Furthermore, I feel a sense of obligation to warn people what they could be in for, if they join Nostalgia. I feel that this faction and its leader in particular have betrayed the word maturity.
And because Falon seems to be such a celebrity on Lost City and many people are attracted to join her guild due to its description of a mature and fun faction, I want to make you see her true colors. What kind of leader is intimidated by their own members (and a lowly executor, no less) and tries to erase their suggestions? What kind of person demonstrates no appreciation whatsoever for the many goods that someone does to them? What kind of guild is this that claims to be mature when its leader shows no sign of maturity?
During my contemplations, I finally managed to understand what the guild's name meant. It's "a bittersweet yearning for the things of the past" for sure, but I also came up with a theory at what it was directed. And now I know. It's nostalgia for the bygone days of the totalitarian dictators. I think Falon does a great job following in their footsteps, even if it's just in a game.
I guess everyone who isn't that nostalgic and is looking for a mature faction will have to wait for a long time till something new and more appropriate finally appears to live up to the expectations of the more mature audience.
Thank you for your time.
Post edited by Dimiter - Lost City on
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Comments
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I can see your point in its entirety, but I do not exactly agree with completely calling her out like this. Falon is a nice girl, and whether or not there was some miscomunication, or if she did feel that you were challenging her doesn't change this. No one will have the same view on everything all of the time.
I don't agree with you being banned from the forums, and I don't agree with how you were treated, either. I might bring it up, and I might not since I really have nothing to do with it. I feel its a bit unfair, but it isn't as if your mind would change on anything if I brought it up with Falon to try and bring you back.
You two had a disagreement and you want to spread the word on how 'immature' she is.. but I just find that just as immature if not more so. You had hardly any problems with any of the rest of the faction, and you're going to consider the entire faction a bad one because you dislike Falon..
Like I said, I agree that her banning you was wrong in my opinion. I don't think it was fair, but I don't think this is really, either.. Mrrrf.
iluhon. ):Join Solace today at solaceguild.xtreemhost.com!0 -
Chex, thank you for reading and expressing your opinion. It means a lot to me to have members of Nostalgia see the other side of the story.
While I appreciate your offer to talk to Falon and have me back, I'll have to decline. I was the one who left the guild (although I was in a position where I didn't really have much of a choice) and I left it because of the treatment I received. I doubt this treatment can ever improve so I don't see why I have to join again. Of course, everyone has their personal opinion about pretty much everything.You two had a disagreement and you want to spread the word on how 'immature' she is.. but I just find that just as immature if not more so. You had hardly any problems with any of the rest of the faction, and you're going to consider the entire faction a bad one because you dislike Falon..
I think you misunderstood my point here, Chex. I never claimed to have had problems with anyone else in the guild besides its leader. And while I hate making generalized assumptions, the case of Nostalgia seems pretty much like that of "Falon's guild". She tries to suffocate every form of suggestion or thought different from what the official line is. She tries to have a guild where every idea that's discussed is her idea or at least approved by her for discussion. This is in no way mature and is what made me post here. By posting here I want to achieve the truth. I feel that everyone has the right to know the facts I laid out in my first post, and from then, make up their mind about who's right and who's wrong.
And again, my post is directed at the mature audience. People have to know what happens to people who are behaving in a mature and helpful way. They get exiled. If you think you can handle it, join Nostalgia. But don't say no one warned you.0 -
Dimiter - Lost City wrote: »"You're undermining my authority."
This is what I received from Nostalgia's leader, Falon, as thanks for what I'd been doing in the last two months in her faction. This is how I was treated when I tried to help Nostalgia become a real community of mature and intelligent people.
As we like to say in my country, "No good deed goes unpunished". Here, I'm dealing with the exact type of situation. I try to lend a helping hand and make things easier for the leader, yet I get accused of challenging her.
But let me start from the beginning. I joined Nostalgia in the middle of October because a good friend of mine (and ex-leader) had gone there and I thought the guild seemed like the very thing I needed - a community of mature and fun people, especially since my previous guild had died. At first it was all nice and most of Nostalgia's members made a good impression on me. They made me feel like I was part of something bigger. When I needed help, they came to help, when they needed help, I tried to help them.
Another important thing is that at the beginning random PK-ing wasn't allowed. This made it easier for people who were more casual with the game to still be able to play without worrying all the time about being KOS-ed by various players and guilds. As time passed, more and more people became part of this community. Some of them had different tastes and ideas on how things like PK-ing should be handled. Some of them weren't afraid to speak their mind about how they felt towards Falon's policy of no random PK-ing. And I don't think they ever felt embarrassed about doing that openly, even though what they were suggesting esentially contradicted official guild policy at that time.
As more time passed, this small group of people became more determined to get what they wanted. And one day, less than a week ago, they achieved it. One of the most vocal supporters of random PK-ing posted a set of guidelines on how it will be treated by the guild and other general information in the guild's forum. Also, they said it was all with Falon's consent but it'd been posted in the Rules section so that clarification wasn't really necessary.
Now, before you start thinking 'That carebear left cause the rules were changed, haha', no, that's not how or why it happened. I'd accepted the ideas put into these official guidelines and thought they were a nice basis for something more detailed and possibly improved. Thus, the idea of a PK Code was born. I thought that probably Falon didn't have much time to take care of everything, so I could lend a hand, as I'd done with bumping Nostalgia's recruitment thread (for the past month Falon hadn't posted on it just once, you can check the time stamps). I wrote a long and detailed Code that included principles, on which the proposed rules were based, brand new terms to suit the guild's needs, rules that were much more detailed and developed than what was in the official guidelines, and most importantly, a set of specific and commonly encountered scenarios to help understand the rules and how they will be enforced in the different cases. I also pointed out that the proposed Code still needed a lot of work and welcomed feedback by all members in order to improve it further. And last but not least, I pointed out that this was purely a suggestion, it was in the Discussion section.
Many of our unranked members, as well as some executors read it and some commented pointing out its strengths and weaknesses. However, Falon didn't even indicate to have read it. She just wanted to know why I'd written it. So, I started writing again, a long and detailed post about the plenty of reasons I thought why such a Code was necessary, even if it wasn't mine or if mine got altered althogether. I made a comparisson between the general guidelines she had given, which could be thought of as a Constitution and my code, as it was more detailed, could be a proposed Legislation. I said what I'd written could supplement the more general guidelines, in order to provide a more complete and fair system of rules.
Up to this, I had never intended to somehow stand in Falon's way or to disagree on something fundamentally. However, you can probably imagine my bewilderment when on the next day my Code was gone from the boards. It'd been deleted. I was very unpleasantly surprised and when I asked about it in guild chat, I received almost no replies. Only Falon confirmed that she had deleted it. When I inquired about her reasons, she was evasive and didn't want to speak in front of the other guild members. She tried to hide her reasons by stating that my Code was identical to what she'd posted and so on. I didn't like being lied to so I waited until she admitted something I'd thought I'd never see a leader do. Apparently, by posting this very detailed and well-developed thread, I'd 'undermined her authority' and even 'challenged' her.
It had never occurred to me that by trying to help someone establish their authority, I actually undermine it. Nor had I thought of making suggestions as 'outstepping' my boundaries. And I used to think that Nostalgia is a mature faction where people actually had outgrown their egoism and had begun to work together, as a team, in order to constantly improve their gaming experience. It seems, however, that I was wrong. Never in my life (or in my gaming experience, for that matter) have I been regarded as a potential threat when all I ever wanted to achieve was a better environment for all our members. Never before had I witnessed my labour be so unappreciated and my opinion censored, because, apparently, I'm an intimidating person.
And when I think of the two months that I was part of Nostalgia, the 3 times I got up at 6 AM just to take part in TWs, even the one with BloodLusT which had its outcome predetermined, and all the times I donated almost all I'd had to the guild to raise funds for TW, I get this feeling of injustice. The feeling of being deceived.
Normally, I wouldn't post this here. However, the instant I left Nostalgia, I was banned from the guild's forum, probably because Falon was afraid I could post something there. Furthermore, I feel a sense of obligation to warn people what they could be in for, if they join Nostalgia. I feel that this faction and its leader in particular have betrayed the word maturity.
And because Falon seems to be such a celebrity on Lost City and many people are attracted to join her guild due to its description of a mature and fun faction, I want to make you see her true colors. What kind of leader is intimidated by their own members (and a lowly executor, no less) and tries to erase their suggestions? What kind of person demonstrates no appreciation whatsoever for the many goods that someone does to them? What kind of guild is this that claims to be mature when its leader shows no sign of maturity?
During my contemplations, I finally managed to understand what the guild's name meant. It's "a bittersweet yearning for the things of the past" for sure, but I also came up with a theory at what it was directed. And now I know. It's nostalgia for the bygone days of the totalitarian dictators. I think Falon does a great job following in their footsteps, even if it's just in a game.
I guess everyone who isn't that nostalgic and is looking for a mature faction will have to wait for a long time till something new and more appropriate finally appears to live up to the expectations of the more mature audience.
Thank you for your time.
Sounds like you belong on a carebear server. Bai.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Maybe you could elaborate on the connection between carebears and maturity? Because, to me at least, you can be both a carebear while being mature and be mature and not be a carebear. I don't see how carebearness makes one person more or less mature. And when it comes to the situation I have described here, I hardly see any carebearness, nor do I comment it. My thread aims to raise a question: is the "mature guild" Nostalgia really mature? I think it's not and I've already explained my reasons. But they don't have anything to do with carebears.0
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It's hard for a guild to remain the same way the entire way. It gets boring and then people lose interest. From the way I read it, it doesn't seem like you were trying to undermine any authority.
Not really sure how mature Nostalgia is, never been in it, and most likely never will. But best of luck to you, seems like bad treatment for someone who was trying to help.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Me and my wife and friend were also in Nostaligia guild for about 3 weeks 2 months ago.
We had the exact! same problem with Falon.
I tried to voice my oppions"tried being the perfect word" As I was told to drop it even before I could type it and make my oppion understood.
In my humble oppion Falon is not a good leader not a very good people person either, esp when thier idea's differ from her's.
My oppions wont be censored.All 3 of us imedietly left the guild.0 -
I'm flattered you'd take the time to write this about me Dimi. Really.
Omie and I went over rules. They were posted. You posted your own suggestions. I read them. I declined to add them. I deleted them after people complained to me about it. I told you why. You wouldn't drop it, and you left. The end. Talk about Nostalgia all you want.
&& Jebb.
Completely different situation. You were arguing with another member and I told you both drop it. You didn't. You left. Then, you posted on our thread about how you 'support' us a few months later. Make up your mind ?0 -
Heavens Tear and Sanc Servers go go
We don't take kindly to your type around these parts
Btw you better pray to god I never find nude pictures of you I'll post those bishes all up on this forum quicker than you can say "carebear" <-- Inside joke
Sounds like you were trying to indirectly take over someone elses guild
...tsk tsk.CB-Phase 1-4
I am Snorlax and I will block your path.
DestroyTokyo- Voted best WereBeast on PWI Lost City server
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Nobody ever mistreated you. Ever. You were the one mistreating people. Don't you recall a post where you basically said "Only ranking members matter because they're the core members"?
How is that not condescending or belittling to other people who put forth effort into the guild? Fact is, nobody, especially Falon, ever mistreated you. You are the one who couldn't handle not having your way, and with the way you feel about 90% of things in lost city, you really should switch to PVE if you can't take it. >_>
Its exactly as what toky said - "You were trying to control somebody else's guild."
On a note about Nostalgia - its far from being "immature", but I can't say the same for you if you feel the need to try to defame somebody simply because they didn't want to put your ( sorry but I have to say it) Carebear rules into the guild.
Remember though, you weren't "exiled", you left on your own because you couldn't handle not getting your rules put in. >_> You were banned from the forums because it was anticipated you'd post something like this.
But well, things happen as they happen. Take care of yourself.Omiekins // Archer
Bombchu // Venomancer
{{ Nostalgia }}
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Jebbediah - Lost City wrote: »Me and my wife and friend were also in Nostaligia guild for about 3 weeks 2 months ago.
We had the exact! same problem with Falon.
I tried to voice my oppions"tried being the perfect word" As I was told to drop it even before I could type it and make my oppion understood.
In my humble oppion Falon is not a good leader not a very good people person either, esp when thier idea's differ from her's.
My oppions wont be censored.All 3 of us imedietly left the guild.
To be fair, most of your suggestions are completely stupid and naive. Some junk about enforcing a draconian language filter so your kids can play or setting up dungeons for you and your wife. Frankly I'm not surprised to see you not get along with people in your guild.
Anyways, guilds that call themselves "mature" are awesome. They're just bound to take things way too serious. Oh well, nonfactor drama is the best kind of drama.0 -
Dust to dust and all that.
This thread is really unnecessary, as I'm sure most of the people reading it will have no idea who it is about, nor do they care, but I suppose you're excercising your right of free speech. Fair enough. You got into a disagreement with the guild, Dimi. That happens to people daily. If everyone who left a guild made a thread about it, we'd be drowning in them.
Also, making it your "duty" to inform other "mature audiences" about how bad of a leader Falon is, you make yourself look vengeful and in fact, immature. I hope you can appreciate the irony here.Maiya - Lost City wrote: »Not really sure how mature Nostalgia is, never been in it, and most likely never will. But best of luck to you, seems like bad treatment for someone who was trying to help.
Seems like bad commentary from someone who doesn't know the details.~ Blessed is the one that resists temptation ~0 -
Falon - Lost City wrote: »Omie and I went over rules. They were posted. You posted your own suggestions. I read them. I declined to add them. I deleted them after people complained to me about it. I told you why. You wouldn't drop it, and you left. The end.
If you didn't like my suggestions, you could have posted a comment stating that for this and that reason, you think they're not suitable. Or, you could have even locked my thread when people started complaining. And tell everyone why you have locked it.
But it didn't really happen that way. I posted my ideas, some people commented on them, some liked them, others brought up different things that could be improved, etc. It was all OK. You say people complained. I don't recall anyone doing so, at least not in public or personally to me. Yet without any explanation you deleted it because you thought it was somehow damaging to your status when it aimed to strenghten it. And the fact that you deleted it shows that you're either intimidated without there being the need to be so or that you're just trying to destroy every effort that is somehow not coordinated with you personally.
And this is where we come to the part about maturity, which is actually the aim of this thread. You can't claim to have a mature guild when you show such a treatment to the members who try to help. Not to mention the way you censor every idea that hasn't come from you.
Because people insist on using the carebear explanation, I will have to repeat myself. This post has nothing to do with carebears. What I'd posted in my original suggestion aimed to improve the gaming experience for both carebears and non-carebears. It aimed to provide a fair gaming environment. I'm not discussing that suggestion anymore, as it's already been deleted anyway (although I have a copy of it, of course, but it's not hosted anywhere on the Internet).
And Tokyo, I don't know how things are handled in other guilds, like RQ, but really, if you posted a suggestion about something or proposed a way to improve the guild in some way, would Pandora delete your posts and tell you you're undermining his authority? I don't think so.
Liethe, you're right. I'm exercising my freedom of speech. And you're exercising your freedom of thought. I never aim to make anyone think what I think, I just provide the other side with facts and along with them, I give my personal opinion. No one has to agree with me, but I feel that I have to say this.
To Maiya and Jeb, I sincerely thank you for reading my post with an open mind. Its purpose is not to "defame" or to whine, but just to inform the world of some facts and maybe bring up a discussion about when a guild can really be called mature. Furthermore, it seems I'm not the only one who has suffered from this censorship.0 -
I hardly think this is the place to discuss such matters. You should have PMed Falon or talked to her ingame if you still had issues, but instead, chose to victimize yourself on PWI forums.
I think you should first and foremost step down from your pedestal and discuss things privately with Falon. Your thread, it was actually locked and merged into the rules one, which agitated myself and a few others, so I discussed it with her, and she took it off so people wouldn't confuse what you wrote with anything official, since when you made the thread, people were already beginnign to go back into a state of confusion.
suggestions are one thing, but writing a whole damn novel is just...ewwwww. Nobody wants to read that, especially about pk rules on a pk server.
Anyways, I think you seriously need to take a breath, stop acting like your thoughts alone are superior, and discuss these obvious over-reactions and misunderstandings with Falon, before you make yourself look any more two-faced than you've already done thus far.
Like Liethe said - Nobody on this forum cares what you have to say or think, or any of us for that matter. So don't assume they want to hear your story about how "badly" you were treated for all your "divine assistance".Omiekins // Archer
Bombchu // Venomancer
{{ Nostalgia }}
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Omiekins - Lost City wrote: »I hardly think this is the place to discuss such matters. You should have PMed Falon or talked to her ingame if you still had issues, but instead, chose to victimize yourself on PWI forums.
Since I got banned on the other forums, I'll just post here. I did talk to Falon privately (which I did not like because it seemed like she was hiding something from the rest of the guild) and I don't have more to discuss with her.Omiekins - Lost City wrote: »Your thread, it was actually locked and merged into the rules one, which agitated myself and a few others, so I discussed it with her, and she took it off so people wouldn't confuse what you wrote with anything official, since when you made the thread, people were already beginnign to go back into a state of confusion.
No one ever told me what had happened to my thread, I appreciate your doing so. However, I don't think that the confusion can be a good excuse for it being completely wiped off when I had made it quite clear on several occasions that this was only a suggestion.Omiekins - Lost City wrote: »suggestions are one thing, but writing a whole damn novel is just...ewwwww. Nobody wants to read that, especially about pk rules on a pk server.
That's your personal opinion and even though you haven't provided arguments, I will not attempt to change it. I gave my arguments when I had something to say.Omiekins - Lost City wrote: »Anyways, I think you seriously need to take a breath, stop acting like your thoughts alone are superior, and discuss these obvious over-reactions and misunderstandings with Falon, before you make yourself look any more two-faced than you've already done thus far.
I don't think I ever claimed my thoughts to be superior. Every time I say or post something, I try to give my reasons. Also, I never claimed my Code to be perfect, nor that I was perfect. Nothing is perfect. However, when I tried to help improve things, this is what followed. I'm posting this because I want people to know some facts and then be able to make up their minds about things like cooperation, team work and maturity.0 -
Anyways, guilds that call themselves "mature" are awesome. They're just bound to take things way too serious.
Aha, we're not very serious.
Maybe Dimi was too "mature" for us.
He proved it by writing a book of PK do's and don'ts and endless scenarios, then throwing a fit when I wouldn't include them with the ones myself and someone else went over.
Which is another point.
If I like to have everything done my way, or have all the credit, why would I let someone else help me make PK rules?
GG, Dimi.Dimiter - Lost City wrote: »Since I got banned on the other forums, I'll just post here. I did talk to Falon privately (which I did not like because it seemed like she was hiding something from the rest of the guild)
Yep. 'Cause i'm shady.
I said something privately because it had no reason to be said in guild chat.
You got banned on the forums because people thought you'd post something like this, based on some imprudent little comment you made before you left.
On a side note, this is what was suggested by Dimi.
"Now that random PK-ing has been officially allowed, I think we need a good and detailed ruleset about what we may and what we may not do, as well as a system that will treat all members fairly and equally when they break these rules.
Of course, I do like what Omie and Fal have written in the "Guild Rules" forum. I just think their thread is more of a set of principles and guidelines than a complete and detailed system and in the long run we may need something more akin to a PK Code.
This is why I've tried to come up with a more specific suggestion about our rules and how we will enforce them. It's simply a suggestion and all is subject to change. I'd like to see what you guys think about such a system and my suggestion in particular but it's my conviction that unless we have such a system, we may be forced into difficult scenarios later on.
When compiling this "PK Code", I have also adhered to certain principles. Now, I don't clam that these principles are the ones we adhere to as a guild or that these are the best princiles out there. However, I think they're a set of fair and unbiased principles quite similar to what our guild represents. They're not rules but the basis for the suggested rules.
Main Principles
1) Nostalgia is a PK-enabled faction.
2) Nostalgia is not a PK-oriented faction.
3) No one in this faction may be forced, by anyone, to ever take part in PK-ing, unless in TW.
4) Everyone in this faction may kill everyone else outside faction, with or without reason.
5) No one may talk **** when in a PvP situation, or any situation, for that matter.
6) Everyone in this faction, upon initiating PvP, accepts full personal responsibility for their actions.
7) There is no distinction between ranked members and unranked members, the rules must be obeyed by all and the punishments will be the same.
I'll say it again: these are not the rules I'm suggesting, but simply a basis for them. The rules are far more complex and detailed and aim to achieve the best possible gaming experience to suit the various tastes we have in our wonderful faction. To understand my suggestions properly, it's best to start reading the Useful Terms below, to give you an idea of what to expect.
Useful Terms
1) Faction Member X (FMX)
This is practically any member of Nostalgia. Instead of using a generic name, I will use a generalized faction member for my examples.
2) Guild Attackable People (GAP)
These are the people that, after PK-ing our members randomly, are put on a list so that every member may go and kill them if they like. This should be deemed automatic for people who kill a white-named FMX after a screenshot of the aggressor and the dead FMX is provided. Only the faction leader may overrule a GAP.
Note: I'm not using the term KOS, because it has a certain feel of obligation to it while this is totally voluntary.
3) Faction Protected Players (FPP)
These are the people from other factions or without a faction, who you may not kill randomly. If a person from this group kills FMX, FMX must take a screenshot with their dead body and the attacker selected, which should then be posted here so that the aggressor is immediately removed from the FPP list and moved to the GAP list. The removal should be deemed automatic and only the faction leader may overrule it.
4) Personal Kill On Sight (PKOS) list
Every member may have personal or not guild related PK-ing or harassment problems with certain people. If these people cannot be added to the GAP list because they don't meet the criteria for it, FMX has the right to put them on their own PKOS list. After that, they can go on killing them to their heart's content while making it clear that this is not a faction matter by using a world shout (teleacoustic).
Note: FMX may not require faction assistance for attacking and killing people on their PKOS list. FMX may use the assistance of other guilds or people, provided they have made it clear this is a personal matter in the way shown above. FMX may use faction assistance to kill a PKOS only if both FMX and the people assisting them have used a world shout to explain the situation and confirm that this is not a guild matter. FMX may kill FPP and FPG (Faction Protected Guilds) people on their PKOS list if the other conditions to kill PKOS are met.
5) Faction Protected Guilds (FPG)
This is like FPP, but it's guilds rather than individuals who are protected. Those are decided by the faction leader and her director and marshals. You may not kill any of their members while PK-ing randomly. If they attack and kill you, without you having done anything to them, you should take a screenshot with your dead body and them selected and then post it here. The leader should talk to their leader and find out about the situation and if necessary, put the person who attacked you, on the GAP list and decide whether to keep the guild in question on the FPG list or move it to the GAG (Guild Attackable Guilds) list.
Note: If the leader refuses to put the person on GAP and you strongly believe that they should be killed, you may put the aggressor on your PKOS list and kill them yourself, without faction support. Before attacking the person again, just use a world shout to inform the world of your intentions and that this has nothing to do with Nostalgia.
6) Guild Attackable Guilds (GAG)
This is basically a sort of guild KOS on a specific guild, but the emphasis lies in its voluntary nature. GAG will be decided by the leader and her director and marshals. You may kill any of their members at all times without informing anybody and you may request assistance to kill them from anybody.
Special Cases
1) If a certain person is in GAP but their faction is GAG, the person is still kept in the GAP list until further notice. This means that even if hostilities with the player's factions are resolved, the person is still attackable because of their personal contribution. The leader should decide if the person should be removed from GAP or remain there.
2) If a certain person is in FPP but their faction is FPG, the person is still kept in the FPP list until further notice. As with the GAP case, the person has earned their place in the list through their personal contribution.
3) A certain person may be GAP while their faction is FPG. This is, again, the result of personal responsibility.
4) If a certain person is FPP but their guild is GAG, the person in question must remain in the FPP list, unless the faction leader decides otherwise.
Part One: Defence PK-ing
Everyone who plays on Lost City will eventually be attacked and killed by other players, even for no reason. That's why everyone in this faction must be able to fight back. Because there have been incidents in the past, however, I propose a more detailed system about how this should be done.
Scenario 1
FMX is white-named and gets attacked by a random person.
FMX has several options:
1) Attack back (and possibly kill) on their own or with the help of their immediate squad.
2) Run away and ask for guild support.
If the person persists after being killed or after FMX has run away, FMX may request that the player be put on the GAP list of our faction. The decision is up to the faction member with highest rank present. If there are mutliple such members, they should vote. If there's a tie, the matter should be left to be resolved by a higher ranked member.
If FMX is killed while white-named, they have to take a screenshot with the attacking person selected in order to receive further guild support.
FMX has the following options:
1) Respawn and try to kill the PK-er alone.
2) Post the screenshot in the forums (a special forum for PK-ing would be useful) and request the PK-er to be put in the Guild Attackable Players (GAP) list.
3) Put a Personal KOS (PKOS) on the person if they aren't added to the GAP list.
Note: If FMX gets attacked/killed by a random person while pink or red-named, they may not require further guild support. FMX may, however, add the person in question to their PKOS list.
Scenario 2
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by someone in the Faction Protected Players (FPP) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected, then post it in the forums.
2) Request an immediate removal of the aggressor from the FPP list.
3) Request the person to be put on the GAP list.
Note: Only the faction leader may overrule this.
Scenario 3
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by a member of a faction from the Faction Protected Guilds (FPG) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected and post it in the forums.
2) Let the leader and her director and marshals reach a decision about the status of the person in question and the guild in question.
Part Two: Attack PK-ing
This part is also very detailed and features the steps that FMX has to follow in order to initiate an attack on random people. As everyone here knows, people do get angry when they're killed and sometimes may make hasty judgements about our whole guild due to a single person having problems with them. To compile this part of the guild I have used some of the experience that other guilds in PWI (like Vengeance) have had and offered some of their ways of dealing with these situations.
It's necessary to follow a few simple steps (or rules) which will ensure that you take personal responsibility for your actions when initiating a PK. This is just to allow other faction members, who don't PK, to still play the game the way they like to and not to have to worry about guilds KOS-ing Nostalgia.
Attacking PK Rules
1) You must use a world shout (teleacoustic) to inform the world that you are going into random PK mode and that this is not tied to our guild.
Something in the lines of: "Time to pk some carebears, muhahaha; btw, not related to Nostalgia" would work, I think. Now, take a screenshot of your world shout and save it so when the 'carebears' start complaining and trying to KOS our guild, we can use this as evidence that this is not a guild matter. Having done that, you may kill names of all colours, including white.
2) You may not attack people from the FPP list. If they attack you, even when you haven't done anything to them, proceed with the actions described in Scenario 2 above.
3) You may not attack people from the FPG list. If they happen to attack you, proceed as shown under Scenario 3 above.
4) You may attack and kill people from your PKOS list and receive support from other faction members or non-faction members, as long as they have informed the world that the matter is personal.
5) You may go on PK-ing trips with other faction members, provided they have all informed the world they'll be random PK-ing in the way shown above.
6) You may go on random PK-ing trips with people from other factions, as long as they are PK-ing randomly and have informed the world of this in the same manner you have.
7) You may help other people kill people on their personal KOS, as long as they have told the world that their intentions are personal.
8) You may not assist specific guilds or people fight specific guilds or people on their guild KOS.
Apart from the above rules, you should also keep in mind that once you've initiated PK-ing, you're on your own. The guild will not intervene in any way in your PK-ing enterprises, neither help you, nor stand in your way. There are some special rules that you should remember.
Special PK-ing Rules
1) If FMX dies when pink or red, he'll not be able to submit a request for a GAP on the attacking person.
2) If FMX dies after having announced they're random PK-ing, FMX has no right to request a GAP on the person attacking, no matter what the colour of FMX's name was.
3) FMX may only request guild assistance against current GAP and GAG members while being in random PK-ing mode.
Punishments
Because every rule is useless without a punishment that will be enforced upon its breaking, I have suggested a short and objective list of punishments that I find to be fair towards all members. I've also adopted the "Three strikes and out" policy because I believe it to be fair enough towards new members who haven't acquainted themselves yet with the guild's rules and harsh towards systematical rulebreakers, which makes a good balance.
1) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above and there is evidence provided, FMX is given an official warning to read the rules and obey them.
2) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above for a second time, FMX is automatically deprived of all special ranks within the guild and of the right to request GAP even in genuine cases.
3) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above for a third time, FMX is automatically kicked out of the guild.
Note: Depending on the severity of the rulebreaking, in exceptional cases, the leader and her director and marshals may decide to resort to more serious punishments even for a first or second rulebreaking. Also, in exceptional cases, the leader may overrule or alter the punishment in a specific case as she sees fit.
Some Thoughts
1) A forum dedicated to PK-ing would greatly help us deal with all situations that arise from PK-ing, no matter what rules we decide to follow.
2) It is always useful to take screenshots of people, when they kill you or when you kill them, to keep for reference.
Conclusion
This PK Code is only a suggestion that I think, when properly edited and refined, will give us a set of basic rules to follow in most possible scenarios and will also allow us to treat our members equally when they do something we don't like. Furthermore, my compilation does not contradict the guidelines laid out by Omie and Fal in the Guild Rules section. It actually attempts to supplement them and be more detailed. In a way, you can think of their thread as a kind of Constitution for our guild, while what I have suggested here, is more of a Legislation.
I don't claim that this Code is good, better or perfect. That's why I'm posting it here so people can read it and speak their mind about it. In particular, a few questions I'm most interested in.
1) Do we need such a Code?
2) Have I defined the right set of principles on which to base the proposed Code?
3) Have I missed any possible combinations/scenarios that might occur?
4) Have I treated everyone fairly so that this Code is universally applicable (for Nostalgia, I mean)?
I'm looking forward to your feedback and require it if we're going to use such a thing. On the other hand, I'd encourage everyone to give their idea of such a Code here, so that we can compare various ideas and take the parts we find best and compile the best possible Code.
Thank you for your time.
OK guys, thank you for reading and providing me with some feedback.
Now, I'll try to address all questions/worries/critiques you've expressed.
1)Why am I suggesting this Code?
In case I haven't myself clear in my original post, I'll try to explain my reasoning again. What I have suggested does not intend to substitute the guidelines laid out by Falon and Omie. On the contrary, it's because you posted these guidelines, I tried to come up with something both similar (in terms of ideas and understanding) and different, in that it attempts to provide a much more detailed perspective into PK-ing. And what I have included in this guide is not simply rewording your statements. I don't recall reading anything about using a world shout when planning to go random PK-ing, creating mutiple lists (GAP, GAG, FPP, FPG) and their corresponding definitions and explanations in the greatest possible detail. Neither do I recall reading about specific scenarios and how to deal with them or what punishments to be brought to rulebreakers.
I don't mean to sound somehow harsh or ungrateful. I just think your guidelines are simply that - guidelines. What I've attempted to cover is a range of different scenarios and ways of dealing with them. I don't see why we can't use both the Guidelines and a Code (it might not be this one) in order to achieve the best possible understanding of our rules and how they are enforced.
As I've mentioned in the Conclusion of my Code, we can think of the Guidelines as a sort of Constitution while the Code is more like a Legislation. Why do I make this analogy? Because it's usually that way. In a constitution you have things pretty much laid out in general. You may have something in the lines of "You should not kill people." but it's just that. There's nothing about why I shouldn't kill people, what people shouldn't I kill or what will happen if I happen to kill people. There's basically no information about what happens after I kill someone or under what conditions I may kill someone, etc. Well, that's why modern countries have their legislations. These legislations are basically collections of laws. However, these laws aren't at all general or somehow akin to the constitution in terms of detailness. The only thing that the constitution and the legislation may share and probably should share is the common ideas and principles. Otherwise, they're completely different things. If you happen to kill a man, you'll be prosecuted for breaking a specific law and not for breaking the constitution. And if you are convicted, your punishment will be based on what is provided in the laws and not in the Constitution, as usually the Constitution will make no provision of such cases.
And if you still don't agree that such a Code is needed, let me give you a hypothetical situation. We have a state with a Constitution, yet this state has no laws. All it has is a Constitution. The Constitution says: "Killing people is wrong and will be prosecuted." So, let's have this man, Joe, who is a very poor fellow and all he has is an old shack in the worst part of town, and a little daughter who is of very frail health because she's underfed. One friday evening, Joe is coming home from work when he is attacked on the street by some random mugger. The mugger takes out a knife and threatens Joe that he'd kill him if he didn't give him all his money. Joe, however, had been working all week long for the money he had raised and was planning to spend this money to buy some medicine for his sick daughter who is waiting for him at home. If Joe gives the mugger his money, he won't be able to buy medicine for his daughter and her condition will get worse. She cannot be accepted in the hospital as Joe can't afford a medical insurance. Joe, as a father, is very concerned about his daughter's health and as he has nothing else but his daughter, he decides to fight the mugger. In a desperate attempt to save both himself and his daughter's life, Joe hits the mugger with bare fist and tries to dodge the knife. There's a brief fight, a clash and then a yell. The knife has stabbed the mugger in his stomach and he's quickly losing blood. Joe stands there terrified and has no idea what to do. The ambulance arrives in a few minutes but in that time, the mugger has died. Joe is both sad but also grateful that he's had the chance to preserve his own life and thus, the life of his daughter. Just when he plans to go and see her, he's placed under arrest for murdering the mugger. A few weeks later, he is summoned by the court to be prosecuted. Despite his protests and his claims that he's innocent and has killed the man in self-defence where that was his only way out of the situation, the court finds him guilty of breaking the constitution. The constitution clearly says killing people is wrong and must be prosecuted, which means that Joe has to be convicted. Because the state has no laws and just a constitution, the judge doesn't know what sentence to give either. He probably will sentence Joe to life imprisonment (as killing people is wrong so there's no capital sentence) and thus doom both him and his daughter to a slow and painful end. And all this, because there are no laws to guarantee a man his rights and what would happen if he does something that he has no right to.
2) Why world shout?
Of all the feedback I've received so far about the content of the rules proposed, only Veri's question is specific enough for me to elaborate on it. Veri says that making people world shout when they want to PK is expensive and, in a way, prohibitive. I do agree with this and find it rather expensive myself. However, the informing of the world that this is a personal/random affair, is something that has to be done unless we want the whole Nostalgia to gain a reputation of a random PK-ing faction. If we have no problem with such a reputation, then it's fine to not say anything. But if we think we're not a PK-ing oriented faction, we'll have to agree on something that will suit both sides.
I've proposed that FMX should use a world shout before entering random PK-ing mode. I've left you some doors open, if you're ingenious enough to find them. For example, there's nothing that says you need to use a new teleacoustic every time you go PK-ing. You can do the following: take a trumpet and in world chat say:"in the coming week I'll be PK-ing many random carebears, don't tie it to Nostalgia". What's the difference? The difference is that you have declared this for a period of one week so you won't have to use another world shout so soon. Or, you could say something in the lines of "i'll be pk-ing any random people i see whenever i feel like it, don't tie to Nostalgia". This actually makes it possible for you to only use one world shout. Just remember to always take a screenshot with your message and keep it. This is your and our evidence that it's your personal responsibility on what you do and have done when in PK-ing mode.
For PKOS problems, you have to use a world shout to inform the world you're killing someone. However, nothing says you have to use a new teleacoustic every time you go to kill the person in question. Just use a teleacoustic once, saying "From now on I'll be KOS-ing XYZ for personal reasons, not tied to Nostalgia". I think that's pretty much enough.
3) Well, this is not technically an answer to a question. It's more of a question. Why do I seem to be unable to edit in my original post some more stuff that I've thought of now? It says the message is too long, yet it's just a few sentences longer than the original text. Anyway, I'll try to post my amendments here.
Scenario 2
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by someone in the Faction Protected Players (FPP) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected, then post it in the forums.
2) Request an immediate removal of the aggressor from the FPP list.
3) Request the person to be put on the GAP list.
Note: Only the faction leader may overrule this.
4) NEW! If overruled, yet still not satisfied, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Scenario 3
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by a member of a faction from the Faction Protected Guilds (FPG) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected and post it in the forums.
2) Let the leader and her director and marshals reach a decision about the status of the person in question and the guild in question.
3) NEW! If not satisfied with the guild's decision, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Scenario 4 NEW!
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked by a member of either the FPP or the FPG list. If the attack is serious, FMX has the following options:
1) Fight back (and possibly kill) the aggressor with the help of their immediate squad.
2) Run away and ask for guild support in the form of a talk to the aggressor by a higher ranked member to determine whether they should be removed from the FPP/FPG list and put in the GAP list.
3) If not satisfied with the guild's decision, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Some Thoughts
1) A forum dedicated to PK-ing would greatly help us deal with all situations that arise from PK-ing, no matter what rules we decide to follow.
2) It is always useful to take screenshots of people, when they kill you or when you kill them, to keep for reference.
3) NEW! It is always useful to take screenshots of your world shouts and keep for reference and even use as evidence in difficult situations."
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This guy likes to type a lot...
Anyways: Carebear~0 -
This situation kinda reminds me of what Shygirl posted when she got kicked outta RQ. Ha.0
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Liethe - Lost City wrote: »Seems like bad commentary from someone who doesn't know the details.
Yes, I don't know the details. I posted what I had to say in the topic. That is what you do on a forum, yes?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Falon - Lost City wrote: »If I like to have everything done my way, or have all the credit, why would I let someone else help me make PK rules?
The reason is the same as that why you allowed random PK-ing. It was just Omie and Liethe (and Veri, but he was still new) who wanted random PK-ing, yet you allowed it. You then said you allowed it because people had disobeyed you before and PK-ed anyway (they may have PK-ed, but not randomly). You just tried to appease a small and more vocal part of the guild and you probably thought it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway and would be an easy thing to do. But when you think about the big picture, you see that this is not the case.
I think that you didn't feel particularly pleased with Omie's writing your guidelines either, even though you allowed her to do it. You may have not had the time to do it all yourself even though you would have, I don't know. Then, when I posted a suggestion, you probably felt jealous because it showed more research and time gone into it. Furthermore, Omie told you I was 'undermining' you because she felt the same way and you took it seriously.Falon - Lost City wrote: »Yep. 'Cause i'm shady.
I said something privately because it had no reason to be said in guild chat.
You got banned on the forums because people thought you'd post something like this, based on some imprudent little comment you made before you left.
What we were discussing was a guild matter, not something top secret or personal. There would be no harm done if it were discussed with the guild. I had originally planned to discuss it with everyone and receive feedback and that's why I posted it in the guild's forums. However, you felt that my help was challenging you and that suggesting something was acting like I was in charge. Making me PM you indicated that you were hiding something. I wasn't challenging you in any way or undermining your authority, but you undermined it yourself with what you did.
Also, it seemed rather quiet when I was leaving and all that Kaje and Thor said was "Bye Dimi", as if I was logging for the night. I got the feeling you'd already decided to make me leave (or maybe kick me) even if I hadn't done so. That's why you were so quick to ban me from the forums and kick my alt.
And thank you for posting the suggested Code here, although I don't plan to discuss its content anymore. I wanted to discuss it with you and the other members of Nostalgia when I posted it there. I was going to work on it more and welcomed everyone to work on a version of their own or on ideas that can be implented into one big combined Code, but I think I already explained what followed.0 -
Well, for starters, SHEESH.
Just because you and your guild leader were having problems didn't mean you had to broadcast it all over the fourms. Secondly, basically what happened was you and her misunderstood each other, you didn't have to write a novel on it.
My advice would be to tell Falon about this... not Falon and just about anyone else who happens to read your rant.
To both of you: It's a game, you don't have to write papers upon papers upon papers about it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Forsaken Sigs
Sajra - Level 31 - Hell Archer.0 -
Dimiter - Lost City wrote: »The reason is the same as that why you allowed random PK-ing. It was just Omie and Liethe (and Veri, but he was still new) who wanted random PK-ing, yet you allowed it. You then said you allowed it because people had disobeyed you before and PK-ed anyway (they may have PK-ed, but not randomly). You just tried to appease a small and more vocal part of the guild and you probably thought it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway and would be an easy thing to do. But when you think about the big picture, you see that this is not the case.
I think that you didn't feel particularly pleased with Omie's writing your guidelines either, even though you allowed her to do it. You may have not had the time to do it all yourself even though you would have, I don't know. Then, when I posted a suggestion, you probably felt jealous because it showed more research and time gone into it. Furthermore, Omie told you I was 'undermining' you because she felt the same way and you took it seriously.
What we were discussing was a guild matter, not something top secret or personal. There would be no harm done if it were discussed with the guild. I had originally planned to discuss it with everyone and receive feedback and that's why I posted it in the guild's forums. However, you felt that my help was challenging you and that suggesting something was acting like I was in charge. Making me PM you indicated that you were hiding something. I wasn't challenging you in any way or undermining your authority, but you undermined it yourself with what you did.
Also, it seemed rather quiet when I was leaving and all that Kaje and Thor said was "Bye Dimi", as if I was logging for the night. I got the feeling you'd already decided to make me leave (or maybe kick me) even if I hadn't done so. That's why you were so quick to ban me from the forums and kick my alt.
And thank you for posting the suggested Code here, although I don't plan to discuss its content anymore. I wanted to discuss it with you and the other members of Nostalgia when I posted it there. I was going to work on it more and welcomed everyone to work on a version of their own or on ideas that can be implented into one big combined Code, but I think I already explained what followed.
Rotfl? Don't single out Omie or Liethe. Especially Liethe, since she had nothing to say about it in the first place. Nor was Omie the only one to speak up. There were several people who had pointed it out. I never said I allowed it because people disobeyed me before. I said your 'rules' wouldn't help since people disobey them. If I was trying to appease a small part of the group(i.e, you), I would have let your silly rules stand. Most of us don't care about the PKing, because shockingly, we are on a PK server. Omie asked me if she could write the PK rules, and I told her she could. She even told me I could edit out anything I didn't like or agree with. Guess what? Nothing got edited out of hers. I was perfectly okay with her doing it. Furthermore, she didn't tell me you were 'undermining' me. When I said that it had nothing to do with anyone else's opinion. Maybe it was quiet because no one cared that you were leaving, eh? I don't kick people from the guild, you know that. Nice try there. Rhen PMed me a few minutes after you left and asked if we should ban you from the forums. I said yes. The end.0 -
Falon - Lost City wrote: »
"Now that random PK-ing has been officially allowed, I think we need a good and detailed ruleset about what we may and what we may not do, as well as a system that will treat all members fairly and equally when they break these rules.
Of course, I do like what Omie and Fal have written in the "Guild Rules" forum. I just think their thread is more of a set of principles and guidelines than a complete and detailed system and in the long run we may need something more akin to a PK Code.
This is why I've tried to come up with a more specific suggestion about our rules and how we will enforce them. It's simply a suggestion and all is subject to change. I'd like to see what you guys think about such a system and my suggestion in particular but it's my conviction that unless we have such a system, we may be forced into difficult scenarios later on.
When compiling this "PK Code", I have also adhered to certain principles. Now, I don't clam that these principles are the ones we adhere to as a guild or that these are the best princiles out there. However, I think they're a set of fair and unbiased principles quite similar to what our guild represents. They're not rules but the basis for the suggested rules.
Main Principles
1) Nostalgia is a PK-enabled faction.
2) Nostalgia is not a PK-oriented faction.
3) No one in this faction may be forced, by anyone, to ever take part in PK-ing, unless in TW.
4) Everyone in this faction may kill everyone else outside faction, with or without reason.
5) No one may talk **** when in a PvP situation, or any situation, for that matter.
6) Everyone in this faction, upon initiating PvP, accepts full personal responsibility for their actions.
7) There is no distinction between ranked members and unranked members, the rules must be obeyed by all and the punishments will be the same.
I'll say it again: these are not the rules I'm suggesting, but simply a basis for them. The rules are far more complex and detailed and aim to achieve the best possible gaming experience to suit the various tastes we have in our wonderful faction. To understand my suggestions properly, it's best to start reading the Useful Terms below, to give you an idea of what to expect.
Useful Terms
1) Faction Member X (FMX)
This is practically any member of Nostalgia. Instead of using a generic name, I will use a generalized faction member for my examples.
2) Guild Attackable People (GAP)
These are the people that, after PK-ing our members randomly, are put on a list so that every member may go and kill them if they like. This should be deemed automatic for people who kill a white-named FMX after a screenshot of the aggressor and the dead FMX is provided. Only the faction leader may overrule a GAP.
Note: I'm not using the term KOS, because it has a certain feel of obligation to it while this is totally voluntary.
3) Faction Protected Players (FPP)
These are the people from other factions or without a faction, who you may not kill randomly. If a person from this group kills FMX, FMX must take a screenshot with their dead body and the attacker selected, which should then be posted here so that the aggressor is immediately removed from the FPP list and moved to the GAP list. The removal should be deemed automatic and only the faction leader may overrule it.
4) Personal Kill On Sight (PKOS) list
Every member may have personal or not guild related PK-ing or harassment problems with certain people. If these people cannot be added to the GAP list because they don't meet the criteria for it, FMX has the right to put them on their own PKOS list. After that, they can go on killing them to their heart's content while making it clear that this is not a faction matter by using a world shout (teleacoustic).
Note: FMX may not require faction assistance for attacking and killing people on their PKOS list. FMX may use the assistance of other guilds or people, provided they have made it clear this is a personal matter in the way shown above. FMX may use faction assistance to kill a PKOS only if both FMX and the people assisting them have used a world shout to explain the situation and confirm that this is not a guild matter. FMX may kill FPP and FPG (Faction Protected Guilds) people on their PKOS list if the other conditions to kill PKOS are met.
5) Faction Protected Guilds (FPG)
This is like FPP, but it's guilds rather than individuals who are protected. Those are decided by the faction leader and her director and marshals. You may not kill any of their members while PK-ing randomly. If they attack and kill you, without you having done anything to them, you should take a screenshot with your dead body and them selected and then post it here. The leader should talk to their leader and find out about the situation and if necessary, put the person who attacked you, on the GAP list and decide whether to keep the guild in question on the FPG list or move it to the GAG (Guild Attackable Guilds) list.
Note: If the leader refuses to put the person on GAP and you strongly believe that they should be killed, you may put the aggressor on your PKOS list and kill them yourself, without faction support. Before attacking the person again, just use a world shout to inform the world of your intentions and that this has nothing to do with Nostalgia.
6) Guild Attackable Guilds (GAG)
This is basically a sort of guild KOS on a specific guild, but the emphasis lies in its voluntary nature. GAG will be decided by the leader and her director and marshals. You may kill any of their members at all times without informing anybody and you may request assistance to kill them from anybody.
Special Cases
1) If a certain person is in GAP but their faction is GAG, the person is still kept in the GAP list until further notice. This means that even if hostilities with the player's factions are resolved, the person is still attackable because of their personal contribution. The leader should decide if the person should be removed from GAP or remain there.
2) If a certain person is in FPP but their faction is FPG, the person is still kept in the FPP list until further notice. As with the GAP case, the person has earned their place in the list through their personal contribution.
3) A certain person may be GAP while their faction is FPG. This is, again, the result of personal responsibility.
4) If a certain person is FPP but their guild is GAG, the person in question must remain in the FPP list, unless the faction leader decides otherwise.
Part One: Defence PK-ing
Everyone who plays on Lost City will eventually be attacked and killed by other players, even for no reason. That's why everyone in this faction must be able to fight back. Because there have been incidents in the past, however, I propose a more detailed system about how this should be done.
Scenario 1
FMX is white-named and gets attacked by a random person.
FMX has several options:
1) Attack back (and possibly kill) on their own or with the help of their immediate squad.
2) Run away and ask for guild support.
If the person persists after being killed or after FMX has run away, FMX may request that the player be put on the GAP list of our faction. The decision is up to the faction member with highest rank present. If there are mutliple such members, they should vote. If there's a tie, the matter should be left to be resolved by a higher ranked member.
If FMX is killed while white-named, they have to take a screenshot with the attacking person selected in order to receive further guild support.
FMX has the following options:
1) Respawn and try to kill the PK-er alone.
2) Post the screenshot in the forums (a special forum for PK-ing would be useful) and request the PK-er to be put in the Guild Attackable Players (GAP) list.
3) Put a Personal KOS (PKOS) on the person if they aren't added to the GAP list.
Note: If FMX gets attacked/killed by a random person while pink or red-named, they may not require further guild support. FMX may, however, add the person in question to their PKOS list.
Scenario 2
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by someone in the Faction Protected Players (FPP) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected, then post it in the forums.
2) Request an immediate removal of the aggressor from the FPP list.
3) Request the person to be put on the GAP list.
Note: Only the faction leader may overrule this.
Scenario 3
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by a member of a faction from the Faction Protected Guilds (FPG) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected and post it in the forums.
2) Let the leader and her director and marshals reach a decision about the status of the person in question and the guild in question.
Part Two: Attack PK-ing
This part is also very detailed and features the steps that FMX has to follow in order to initiate an attack on random people. As everyone here knows, people do get angry when they're killed and sometimes may make hasty judgements about our whole guild due to a single person having problems with them. To compile this part of the guild I have used some of the experience that other guilds in PWI (like Vengeance) have had and offered some of their ways of dealing with these situations.
It's necessary to follow a few simple steps (or rules) which will ensure that you take personal responsibility for your actions when initiating a PK. This is just to allow other faction members, who don't PK, to still play the game the way they like to and not to have to worry about guilds KOS-ing Nostalgia.
Attacking PK Rules
1) You must use a world shout (teleacoustic) to inform the world that you are going into random PK mode and that this is not tied to our guild.
Something in the lines of: "Time to pk some carebears, muhahaha; btw, not related to Nostalgia" would work, I think. Now, take a screenshot of your world shout and save it so when the 'carebears' start complaining and trying to KOS our guild, we can use this as evidence that this is not a guild matter. Having done that, you may kill names of all colours, including white.
2) You may not attack people from the FPP list. If they attack you, even when you haven't done anything to them, proceed with the actions described in Scenario 2 above.
3) You may not attack people from the FPG list. If they happen to attack you, proceed as shown under Scenario 3 above.
4) You may attack and kill people from your PKOS list and receive support from other faction members or non-faction members, as long as they have informed the world that the matter is personal.
5) You may go on PK-ing trips with other faction members, provided they have all informed the world they'll be random PK-ing in the way shown above.
6) You may go on random PK-ing trips with people from other factions, as long as they are PK-ing randomly and have informed the world of this in the same manner you have.
7) You may help other people kill people on their personal KOS, as long as they have told the world that their intentions are personal.
8) You may not assist specific guilds or people fight specific guilds or people on their guild KOS.
Apart from the above rules, you should also keep in mind that once you've initiated PK-ing, you're on your own. The guild will not intervene in any way in your PK-ing enterprises, neither help you, nor stand in your way. There are some special rules that you should remember.
Special PK-ing Rules
1) If FMX dies when pink or red, he'll not be able to submit a request for a GAP on the attacking person.
2) If FMX dies after having announced they're random PK-ing, FMX has no right to request a GAP on the person attacking, no matter what the colour of FMX's name was.
3) FMX may only request guild assistance against current GAP and GAG members while being in random PK-ing mode.
Punishments
Because every rule is useless without a punishment that will be enforced upon its breaking, I have suggested a short and objective list of punishments that I find to be fair towards all members. I've also adopted the "Three strikes and out" policy because I believe it to be fair enough towards new members who haven't acquainted themselves yet with the guild's rules and harsh towards systematical rulebreakers, which makes a good balance.
1) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above and there is evidence provided, FMX is given an official warning to read the rules and obey them.
2) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above for a second time, FMX is automatically deprived of all special ranks within the guild and of the right to request GAP even in genuine cases.
3) If FMX breaks any one of the rules laid out above for a third time, FMX is automatically kicked out of the guild.
Note: Depending on the severity of the rulebreaking, in exceptional cases, the leader and her director and marshals may decide to resort to more serious punishments even for a first or second rulebreaking. Also, in exceptional cases, the leader may overrule or alter the punishment in a specific case as she sees fit.
Some Thoughts
1) A forum dedicated to PK-ing would greatly help us deal with all situations that arise from PK-ing, no matter what rules we decide to follow.
2) It is always useful to take screenshots of people, when they kill you or when you kill them, to keep for reference.
Conclusion
This PK Code is only a suggestion that I think, when properly edited and refined, will give us a set of basic rules to follow in most possible scenarios and will also allow us to treat our members equally when they do something we don't like. Furthermore, my compilation does not contradict the guidelines laid out by Omie and Fal in the Guild Rules section. It actually attempts to supplement them and be more detailed. In a way, you can think of their thread as a kind of Constitution for our guild, while what I have suggested here, is more of a Legislation.
I don't claim that this Code is good, better or perfect. That's why I'm posting it here so people can read it and speak their mind about it. In particular, a few questions I'm most interested in.
1) Do we need such a Code?
2) Have I defined the right set of principles on which to base the proposed Code?
3) Have I missed any possible combinations/scenarios that might occur?
4) Have I treated everyone fairly so that this Code is universally applicable (for Nostalgia, I mean)?
I'm looking forward to your feedback and require it if we're going to use such a thing. On the other hand, I'd encourage everyone to give their idea of such a Code here, so that we can compare various ideas and take the parts we find best and compile the best possible Code.
Thank you for your time.
OK guys, thank you for reading and providing me with some feedback.
Now, I'll try to address all questions/worries/critiques you've expressed.
1)Why am I suggesting this Code?
In case I haven't myself clear in my original post, I'll try to explain my reasoning again. What I have suggested does not intend to substitute the guidelines laid out by Falon and Omie. On the contrary, it's because you posted these guidelines, I tried to come up with something both similar (in terms of ideas and understanding) and different, in that it attempts to provide a much more detailed perspective into PK-ing. And what I have included in this guide is not simply rewording your statements. I don't recall reading anything about using a world shout when planning to go random PK-ing, creating mutiple lists (GAP, GAG, FPP, FPG) and their corresponding definitions and explanations in the greatest possible detail. Neither do I recall reading about specific scenarios and how to deal with them or what punishments to be brought to rulebreakers.
I don't mean to sound somehow harsh or ungrateful. I just think your guidelines are simply that - guidelines. What I've attempted to cover is a range of different scenarios and ways of dealing with them. I don't see why we can't use both the Guidelines and a Code (it might not be this one) in order to achieve the best possible understanding of our rules and how they are enforced.
As I've mentioned in the Conclusion of my Code, we can think of the Guidelines as a sort of Constitution while the Code is more like a Legislation. Why do I make this analogy? Because it's usually that way. In a constitution you have things pretty much laid out in general. You may have something in the lines of "You should not kill people." but it's just that. There's nothing about why I shouldn't kill people, what people shouldn't I kill or what will happen if I happen to kill people. There's basically no information about what happens after I kill someone or under what conditions I may kill someone, etc. Well, that's why modern countries have their legislations. These legislations are basically collections of laws. However, these laws aren't at all general or somehow akin to the constitution in terms of detailness. The only thing that the constitution and the legislation may share and probably should share is the common ideas and principles. Otherwise, they're completely different things. If you happen to kill a man, you'll be prosecuted for breaking a specific law and not for breaking the constitution. And if you are convicted, your punishment will be based on what is provided in the laws and not in the Constitution, as usually the Constitution will make no provision of such cases.
And if you still don't agree that such a Code is needed, let me give you a hypothetical situation. We have a state with a Constitution, yet this state has no laws. All it has is a Constitution. The Constitution says: "Killing people is wrong and will be prosecuted." So, let's have this man, Joe, who is a very poor fellow and all he has is an old shack in the worst part of town, and a little daughter who is of very frail health because she's underfed. One friday evening, Joe is coming home from work when he is attacked on the street by some random mugger. The mugger takes out a knife and threatens Joe that he'd kill him if he didn't give him all his money. Joe, however, had been working all week long for the money he had raised and was planning to spend this money to buy some medicine for his sick daughter who is waiting for him at home. If Joe gives the mugger his money, he won't be able to buy medicine for his daughter and her condition will get worse. She cannot be accepted in the hospital as Joe can't afford a medical insurance. Joe, as a father, is very concerned about his daughter's health and as he has nothing else but his daughter, he decides to fight the mugger. In a desperate attempt to save both himself and his daughter's life, Joe hits the mugger with bare fist and tries to dodge the knife. There's a brief fight, a clash and then a yell. The knife has stabbed the mugger in his stomach and he's quickly losing blood. Joe stands there terrified and has no idea what to do. The ambulance arrives in a few minutes but in that time, the mugger has died. Joe is both sad but also grateful that he's had the chance to preserve his own life and thus, the life of his daughter. Just when he plans to go and see her, he's placed under arrest for murdering the mugger. A few weeks later, he is summoned by the court to be prosecuted. Despite his protests and his claims that he's innocent and has killed the man in self-defence where that was his only way out of the situation, the court finds him guilty of breaking the constitution. The constitution clearly says killing people is wrong and must be prosecuted, which means that Joe has to be convicted. Because the state has no laws and just a constitution, the judge doesn't know what sentence to give either. He probably will sentence Joe to life imprisonment (as killing people is wrong so there's no capital sentence) and thus doom both him and his daughter to a slow and painful end. And all this, because there are no laws to guarantee a man his rights and what would happen if he does something that he has no right to.
2) Why world shout?
Of all the feedback I've received so far about the content of the rules proposed, only Veri's question is specific enough for me to elaborate on it. Veri says that making people world shout when they want to PK is expensive and, in a way, prohibitive. I do agree with this and find it rather expensive myself. However, the informing of the world that this is a personal/random affair, is something that has to be done unless we want the whole Nostalgia to gain a reputation of a random PK-ing faction. If we have no problem with such a reputation, then it's fine to not say anything. But if we think we're not a PK-ing oriented faction, we'll have to agree on something that will suit both sides.
I've proposed that FMX should use a world shout before entering random PK-ing mode. I've left you some doors open, if you're ingenious enough to find them. For example, there's nothing that says you need to use a new teleacoustic every time you go PK-ing. You can do the following: take a trumpet and in world chat say:"in the coming week I'll be PK-ing many random carebears, don't tie it to Nostalgia". What's the difference? The difference is that you have declared this for a period of one week so you won't have to use another world shout so soon. Or, you could say something in the lines of "i'll be pk-ing any random people i see whenever i feel like it, don't tie to Nostalgia". This actually makes it possible for you to only use one world shout. Just remember to always take a screenshot with your message and keep it. This is your and our evidence that it's your personal responsibility on what you do and have done when in PK-ing mode.
For PKOS problems, you have to use a world shout to inform the world you're killing someone. However, nothing says you have to use a new teleacoustic every time you go to kill the person in question. Just use a teleacoustic once, saying "From now on I'll be KOS-ing XYZ for personal reasons, not tied to Nostalgia". I think that's pretty much enough.
3) Well, this is not technically an answer to a question. It's more of a question. Why do I seem to be unable to edit in my original post some more stuff that I've thought of now? It says the message is too long, yet it's just a few sentences longer than the original text. Anyway, I'll try to post my amendments here.
Scenario 2
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by someone in the Faction Protected Players (FPP) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected, then post it in the forums.
2) Request an immediate removal of the aggressor from the FPP list.
3) Request the person to be put on the GAP list.
Note: Only the faction leader may overrule this.
4) NEW! If overruled, yet still not satisfied, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Scenario 3
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked and killed by a member of a faction from the Faction Protected Guilds (FPG) list. FMX has to:
1) Take a screenshot with their dead body and the aggressor selected and post it in the forums.
2) Let the leader and her director and marshals reach a decision about the status of the person in question and the guild in question.
3) NEW! If not satisfied with the guild's decision, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Scenario 4 NEW!
FMX is either white-named, pink-named or red-named and is attacked by a member of either the FPP or the FPG list. If the attack is serious, FMX has the following options:
1) Fight back (and possibly kill) the aggressor with the help of their immediate squad.
2) Run away and ask for guild support in the form of a talk to the aggressor by a higher ranked member to determine whether they should be removed from the FPP/FPG list and put in the GAP list.
3) If not satisfied with the guild's decision, put the attacking person on their PKOS list and kill them as many times as they want to after informing the world that this is not a guild matter.
Some Thoughts
1) A forum dedicated to PK-ing would greatly help us deal with all situations that arise from PK-ing, no matter what rules we decide to follow.
2) It is always useful to take screenshots of people, when they kill you or when you kill them, to keep for reference.
3) NEW! It is always useful to take screenshots of your world shouts and keep for reference and even use as evidence in difficult situations."
ROFLs, if my guild had a ten page long pk code (and it IS ten pages - just paste into ms word) i'd have quit right away. i don't need to pk with an instruction manual.0 -
ROFLs, if my guild had a ten page long pk code (and it IS ten pages - just paste into ms word) i'd have quit right away. i don't need to pk with an instruction manual.
Those were the rules he wanted implemented.
The ones I had approved were;
"PKing is fine, as long as...
- You don't insult the person you're killing.
- You don't go after somebody who has had personal issues with the guild. (These should be noted about in a thread, since not everybody would know off the bat. Personal drama between players always causes problems for the whole guild, so remember this.)
- You don't gang up (3 or more) on a person.
- You don't harass a player by PKing them over and over, i.e, camping them. This makes you (and the guild) look like asses, so don't do it!
Also, there are some other guidelines you should follow.
1. If you're planning on going on a PK Spree and end up bloodred, don't complain when you die and lose items. If you lose something like an HH weapon somebody in the guild made you, odds are, you will NOT be made another one, so you're on your own.
2. If your gut instincts tell you "This person might react badly if I PK them, but I REALLY want to, so maybe I should leave the guild so I don't get my guild in trouble" Listen to it! Just make sure you tell some online members "I'm temporarily leaving the guild to PK, can I have an invite back in a while?" Though it would be best to ask when an officer is on.
3. By going out and PKing, you accept that you are responsible for what happens. Don't go PK somebody and whine and complain for backup from us when they pull in their backup. That will probably make that guild believe we're a hostile guild.
4. Know when to walk away from a problem. If you PK somebody, and then they return PK you, and both of you end up pulling in your friends for backup, its going to cause hostility. Know when to take a breath, relax, and walk away without exchanging bitter words. Hopefully we can all be mature enough not to get into these squabbles.
5. If you know members of a certain guild will put a KoS on Nostalgia simply for being pked by us, leave them be, unless they are giving you a hard time. Remember, PKing will be your personal thing, so do not get the entire guild involved or on somebody's list.
---
If you break these rules, or insist on being a jerk-head and keep getting the guild into unwanted drama or trouble, you will be reprimanded and/or kicked from the guild, depending on the severity of the issue.
Please remember to, at all times, be respectful of other people, including the ones you PK. People's reactions will of course differ, so expect this. But remember mostly to have fun and be a good sport!
*These rules apply to you, the player, initiating PK. It does not include avenging yourself after being PKed, or if somebody is just out to make your day hell. If they are, by all means, kill the suckers, but remember to still be respectful, and no insulting or dirt-talking!"0 -
I just wanted to lol at the rules and scenarios, I think it's a bit much. Just find a big guild to kos and keep it simple.youtube.com/transcendpw
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this fails so hard.... im on carebear and teaparty server and i laugh at that 10 page pk instruction bookelt. i took one look at the first post and hit "last page" it sounds stupid. comeone, im in the most powerful guild in HT atm. we are mostly carebears, and have a 2 line pk code:
Dont PK with provocation (gonna be changed, b/c white name on PvE server=provocation)
PK responsibly (going to be changed also)
u should come join us on the carebear server! although im not much of a carebear 8DLess QQ more Pew Pewb:thanks
"Don't argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."
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Falon - Lost City wrote: »I'm flattered you'd take the time to write this about me Dimi. Really.
Omie and I went over rules. They were posted. You posted your own suggestions. I read them. I declined to add them. I deleted them after people complained to me about it. I told you why. You wouldn't drop it, and you left. The end. Talk about Nostalgia all you want.
&& Jebb.
Completely different situation. You were arguing with another member and I told you both drop it. You didn't. You left. Then, you posted on our thread about how you 'support' us a few months later. Make up your mind ?
I support your guild not you.0 -
Dimiter - Lost City wrote: »And because Falon seems to be such a celebrity on Lost City and many people are attracted to join her guild due to its description of a mature and fun faction, I want to make you see her true colors. What kind of leader is intimidated by their own members (and a lowly executor, no less) and tries to erase their suggestions? What kind of person demonstrates no appreciation whatsoever for the many goods that someone does to them? What kind of guild is this that claims to be mature when its leader shows no sign of maturity?
During my contemplations, I finally managed to understand what the guild's name meant. It's "a bittersweet yearning for the things of the past" for sure, but I also came up with a theory at what it was directed. And now I know. It's nostalgia for the bygone days of the totalitarian dictators. I think Falon does a great job following in their footsteps, even if it's just in a game.
1. Word chatting hardly makes you more interesting unless you’re Deity, FlameZ, or Pandora.
2. My mother used to always hand me SAT books and asked me why I wasn’t “appreciating” them…C’mon, you can always follow up with “NO THANK YOU.”
3. You take maturity to a totally new level. If you REALLY want to talk about maturity, then why don’t we NOT post on a game’s forum and discuss this over coffee on the 30th floor of some business building. Oh, and we should have a large, oval table made of shiny wood. Plus windows and comfy rolling leather seats. Sheesh. This is an MMORPG, not the NYSE.
4. You have Nostalgia’s name all wrong; I can say so, for being a member of the old Covenant, I know somewhat about what it simplifies. But you were part of just Nostalgia, so you can hardly use the phrasing “I finally managed to understand.”
You’re talking about the same woman who I have outleveled after three weeks of inactivity because she stuck around to help all her up-and-coming guildies with HH, FBs, and bosses. As a matter of fact, when she first mentioned this, she and I were helping someone else with Fb51.Jebbediah - Lost City wrote: »In my humble oppion Falon is not a good leader not a very good people person either, esp when thier idea's differ from her's.
I quote Winston Churchill on this: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for everything else.” Simply put: What are you comparing her to? She might not be a good leader, and she might not be the best person, but I assure she’s better than a major bunch of others.
Win!! Hi MaiyaMaiya - Lost City wrote: »Yes, I don't know the details. I posted what I had to say in the topic. That is what you do on a forum, yes?
Anyways…
Dimitri, it is just a game. Sometimes, you just have to chill and relax, writing a moral code spanning 10 pages isn’t meant for an MMORPG, it’s meant for the Jedis. But face it, they’re gone (the Jedis I mean); it’s unnecessary to have so many rules (Dark Side and cookies ftw). I know how you feel, I have typed up many college papers that received poor grades. It’s a part of life. Know when to exert your full energy on things, and when to simply play it cool.
I respect you for trying to work so hard for a guild. It’s hard to find sincere people on online games, haha.
But please, let us save our energy. I’m quite sure if we focused as much time typing these things as we did setting up charity stands, we could end world hunger. Okay, maybe not. But let’s be more productive next time, shall we?0 -
:: reads the rules, gets a fit ::
O.O Man I love RQ, the only rule is "If its not labeled RQ and if it moves, ****ing kill it"
Anyway, stop picking on Falon you noobs Or I'll bully you all in game
:: grabs his bully stick ::
Yeah I mean it.
:: RWARRG, makes a serious face ::Sever: Lost City
Making players RageQuit since 2004
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hello, You have reached Severan on The RQ carebear's automated phone system
To tell me I've got no life and I live in my mom's basement, press 1. To tell me that you are logging on your level 90 character to kick the **** out of me, press 2. To tell me that your friend is a GM and you're getting me banned, press 3. To tell me RQ is going to fail and talk more **** about RunQuick press 4. If none of these options fit your need please hold the line for idiot assistance, they will be with you shortly...0 -
Falon - Lost City wrote: »Furthermore, she didn't tell me you were 'undermining' me. When I said that it had nothing to do with anyone else's opinion.
"Others have noticed it too", is what you told me when I asked you how you had come to the conclusion that I was undermining you. I asked you who they were but you refused to tell me. That's why I supposed it was Omie (as she was the only one who expressed open disagreement with my suggestions).Falon - Lost City wrote: »Maybe it was quiet because no one cared that you were leaving, eh?
Although that's a possibility, I think they already knew that I was going to leave (or be kicked) and weren't at all surprised. I had known these people for months (Thor was there when I first joined and Kaje joined a few weeks later) and when you know someone and have had many interesting discussions with them and many memories about what you have done together, it's rather strange not to care when they decide to leave all of a sudden and not to at least ask 'Why?'.Falon - Lost City wrote: »Rhen PMed me a few minutes after you left and asked if we should ban you from the forums. I said yes.
Tell me how this is mature conduct. You tried to censor me all the way, which shows that you're either intimidated or that you're just not mature enough, or both. Because hiding my suggestions and trying to make me keep my mouth shut actually offended me even more than your lack of appreciation and made me determined to post a story on the official boards.
To the many people who commented about the length of my proposed ruleset, I want to say the following. Nostalgia was a faction that mainly consisted of non-PKers. This means most of the people who where in it didn't PK at all. A few of them PK-ed in self-defence or when provoked and a very small fraction PK-ed personal KOS. When you have a faction that is largely non-PK and you suddenly change the rules to incorporate random PK-ing, this is a sort of a blow to the people who weren't PK-ers. Why? Because in PWI a faction is not just about levels but it's also about reputation. Just like everyone knows RQ to be the random PK-ing faction, probably most people knew Nostalgia as a non-PK guild. And when Nostalgia's reputation shifts to something else, it will no longer be easy for its more casual players, who are actually the majority of its members, to play the game the way they did before. That's why I felt that in order to strike a balance between the needs of the PK-ing part of the faction and the non-PK-ers, a very detailed Code was needed where the responsibility clearly goes to the people who PK and not the ones who haven't done anything to deserve to be KOS-ed by another guild, for example.
Also, the Code I suggested wasn't final. It was only a suggestion, it didn't claim to have covered all possible scenarios or to have the best ways of dealing with the situations that followed. It was, like Pandora likes to say about his guides, a work in progress and it probably never would have been finished. The aim was everyone to give their ideas about what must be changed and how and to keep on patching it and improving it. This, however, probably annoyed Falon because she saw in it my attempt to gain influence over our members, which I hadn't even dreamed of.
To Arravis I want to thank for the appreciation that I have tried to work hard for this guild. We all strive to be productive and it's my conviction that by the implementation of fair and effective rules the guild (or any guild, for that matter) can be even more productive in its daily affairs.
Also, I don't give up the hope that one day there will be a faction that will treat its members in a more mature and nice way. It's probably only a matter of time for one to emerge.0 -
Rotfl, Ily Sev.
Dimi, seriously. Ask how many members of Nost. cared about your rules, or that you left. I think you'll be a bit disappointed at the answer. How many people actually read the whole story? And if you think I'M immature for deleting your thread because I didn't want to use it, what do you call this? 'Falon was mean to me QQ'
Again, GG Dimi.
And if you don't stop bringing Omie into it, you're going to find yourself unable to level in peace. :]
Arra, lmfao. Yes, I do have drama.
Ahh.0
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