The reason PW guild system is screwed and hard to recruit
Crash - Heavens Tear
Posts: 100 Arc User
this realy has to be said and i hope it can be changed,
i havnt created a guild yet so correct any errors i say, ive been guilds on pw-my and only 2 atm on PWI and its the same with every version of PW it seems.
the ability to create a guild at level 20 i suppose is one thing and i dont mind that, but its the fact that creating guilds is to >>CHEAP<<,
with this being done, there is wayyyy to many random newby guilds out there that just recruit ppl in there sucking ppl away from other good guilds having the chance to grow more, even tho small guilds may be good for some ppl as they can make friends there abit easy maby...idk, but anyway what im saying is the prices on creating a guild needs to be raised and id say to raise it to something like 600 or 700k?
atleast if this was to be done we wont see another thousand guilds created within a few more months and will make the guilds that are ingame atm more of a chance to grow as its close to impossible to recruit any1 above 30 as there already in some random guild.
this is just my opinion and i think its a good one, if ppl think against it dont flame, just take ur thoughs else where.
i havnt created a guild yet so correct any errors i say, ive been guilds on pw-my and only 2 atm on PWI and its the same with every version of PW it seems.
the ability to create a guild at level 20 i suppose is one thing and i dont mind that, but its the fact that creating guilds is to >>CHEAP<<,
with this being done, there is wayyyy to many random newby guilds out there that just recruit ppl in there sucking ppl away from other good guilds having the chance to grow more, even tho small guilds may be good for some ppl as they can make friends there abit easy maby...idk, but anyway what im saying is the prices on creating a guild needs to be raised and id say to raise it to something like 600 or 700k?
atleast if this was to be done we wont see another thousand guilds created within a few more months and will make the guilds that are ingame atm more of a chance to grow as its close to impossible to recruit any1 above 30 as there already in some random guild.
this is just my opinion and i think its a good one, if ppl think against it dont flame, just take ur thoughs else where.
retired from PWI server Heavens Tear, October 2008
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!
Post edited by Crash - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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Crash, you're right..to a great degree
Coming from playing WoW for 4 years since release, as GM of my guild, and doing alot of the recruiting, I found that recruiting sucks. Period, end of issue. This is, of course, assuming you don't want every tool in the shed in your guild.
New players read up on the presence of guilds. Just like you or I, they want to lead too, feeling they can do a great job, etc. and yadda yadda.
Toon created, meet the requirements, make a guild, and start to recruit. In WoW, it's even cheaper to start a guild. 10g, and 10 signatures, IIRC, and the signers can /gquit immediately after the guild is formed. Also, a lvl 10 can start one, again, IIRC.... if I'm wrong, I'm REAL close.
Now, we got tons of guilds, with 4-8 people in them. Haha and lol in guild chat... until .......
The various brick walls begin to appear.
Faction X: has 25 people, half way to a lvl 2 faction... only problem is, these fb's require people to be IN GAME routinely, so we can get a good class balance........
Faction Y: has 35 people, at least half of them active. 4 Archers and a cleric are fine lolstuff for killing Argenweave Mantises wholesale. But, Jewelscalen? Spirit Cultivation? Are these people maxing out their gear, maxing Apoc, making charms, or are they trying out Jewelscalen in non-gemmed 2 star white gear, with their fb19 quest reward weaps because they glow blue?
Etc, and so on...
Eventually, some people will realize, being in a smaller guild, that.....they simply can't get their stuff done on a timely basis, or, have to PUG the fb run, and have that Barbarian loot and KEEP those 3 star Arcane panties, kthxbai......
....or that they can't advance their spirit cultivation to train in the new, higher level goodies when they should, again, resorting to PUG it 10 levels too late, after waiting for their guild's only able tank to be online fore 3 weeks. THEN, having a poor PUG group 3-4 times to boot, say, on Jewelscalen, with much death and despair, XP loss, and omgrepairbills.
.. or that their present guild is simply NOT going into TW.
Eventually, those seeking more than totally casual play will gravitate to those guilds that appear to be getting stuff done.
We're in that area, IMO, where we have an uber influx of new people, 1 in 15 want to lead a faction, so we have a ton of small guilds with 8-25 people in them.
In a 25 man casual guild, safe to say 1/3 will eventually move on if their current guild doesnt pump things up after awhile, assuming that the people aren't getting to the part of the game they envisioned in their current situation.
Now, we got the EU version opening up. We'll see a massive turmoil here, as alot of Euro's will move on for better latency, and friendlier event times. You included
I saw your post over 'THERE' .....
Once THAT mess is over, eventually we'll see people re-settling into guilds that will fill their needs.....
Oh, and.. recruiting sucks... any MMO, any time, any place. I got burned out on it in WoW, and thus, I'm not actively doing it here.....0 -
I have to agree with just about every point here. There are a lot of challenges in creating and maintaining a successful guild. Everybody and their mothers are creating guilds. This is a problem with almost all MMO's though. There are even some that don't require anything to create.
I created Shadow about 2 weeks after open beta was released. I spent 1 week getting to level 20 and 1 week designing our guilds website to help give us a extra edge and provide as many tools as possible for our members. When Shadow first became live, recruiting was pretty easy as there where not a lot of guilds yet. For about a month it was nearly impossible to recruit because there was a huge influx of new guilds. The trend is starting to change though. People are now realizing they can't get the help they need with things in the game with their current guild situation.
Recruiting is a job. Granted there will be members who come to you by word of mouth or because you own territory but these people will be far and few between. The only way you are really going to be consistent on getting new members is by being active in the forums, sending out world chats and encouraging your members to help with recruiting.
Recruiting also involves leading by example. There are a lot of factions who treat their lower members like dirt and don't help help them in succeeding in the game. The thing a lot of people fail to realize is that there is a human being on the other side of that level 30 toon. If all your members are kind, courteous and willing to help out another member regardless of level or position in the guild this will inadvertently help you with recruiting.
Granted some of you might not know Shadow as we don't currently hold territory but that does not mean we are not a successful guild. We are level 3, have over 100 ACTIVE members and every member is willing to help another with any given situation. During the course of Shadow I have probably seen 180 or so members come and go (almost all removed due to inactivity) and everyday we are active in recruiting.
In my opinion recruitment starts from within. If your guild has a lot of internal problems, leadership changes and a lack of helping out other members you will see a lot of members come and go, making recruiting all that much more difficult. The only exception I can think of to this are those who own territory. Some think that a good guild is one who owns territory, which can be the furthest from the truth. I have members who have left guilds that own territory because of how they treat their members.
Illusion[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Illusion - Heavens Tear wrote: »Granted some of you might not know Shadow as we don't currently hold territory
Personally, I think that highlights the real problem ... there's just no way to take a look at what guilds are available to join. I come from more of a online strategy background ... but there, we had a list of all alliances, ranked by strength (use sum of level for all members). Open up the alliance, and you got a list of all players and their strength (class/level in this case), and a customizable page where the Alliance Leader could put any relevant info.
Now, for this game, I can see publishing class/level being a bit of a problem for PvP ... and really, some summary stats would be more useful anyway. Things like Number of members, Number in each class, Number currently online, Average level - and of course a customizable message stating minimum requirements, expectations, and who you can apply to.
I see these world chat messages all the time for recruiting into this or that guild ... but with no way to check them out (short of asking or joining of course), I'm not inclined to respond. I'm personally more apt to join up with someone who invites me after teaming up on a quest ... which I'd guess is more likely to be one of those new guilds. (Even if stronger guilds have lower level players, I'd think they're less likely to be Executors or above, so couldn't invite me).
Certainly in my case (with two different chars) it was a pretty new guild. First one, I didn't continue with the char much longer, so don't know how that guild turned out. For my current char, the guild has maybe a half-dozen active (and helpful) members, the rest seem pretty much deadweight at the moment. But I'll give it some time to see how things shape up.0 -
Or you shittie guilds could get good.
Then people would know who you were.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
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Had no intention of being constructive.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Crash don't give evrilysis the time of day. He/She is nothing more than a forum troll who has nothing better to do then criticize anything anyone posts. Take a look at his/hers posting history you will quickly see that he/she is a waste of time. I really like what the GM's do for this game but they need to enforce their own rules when it comes to flaming and trolling their forums.
evrilysis needs to be banned from the forums for not following the guidelines set forth by the GM's. End of Story7. No trolling, or flaming.
Any form of personal insult will not be tolerated. General rule of thumb: if you think that what you are about to post is insulting, don't post it.
So far I count 500+ incidents in violation of said rule.Violation of any of the above mentioned rules may be considered grounds for an immediate ban. The severity of the ban will be at the discretion of PWE staff and will range in duration from an initial warning to permanent loss of posting privileges on the PWI Forums. In more extreme circumstances inappropriate forum behavior may also result in permanent suspension of game accounts. Once banned the decision is final and there is no appeal process.
Something needs to be done.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I was already banned.
Silly kiddo.
Just because I had no intension of being constructive doesn't mean that my post didn't mean something.
Change the requirements for guild creation to something too high and you get something like ROHAN.
If you have time to QQ on the forums about trival issues, I suggest you spend more time grinding and getting a name for yourself.
/thread?
Or are you going to grace me with more material to lol at?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I was already banned.
Silly kiddo.
Just because I had no intension of being constructive doesn't mean that my post didn't mean something.
Change the requirements for guild creation to something too high and you get something like ROHAN.
If you have time to QQ on the forums about trival issues, I suggest you spend more time grinding and getting a name for yourself.
/thread?
Or are you going to grace me with more material to lol at?
or u cud go QQ somewhere else where some1 atualy cares about a word that u can muster out of that pea size brain of urs,
plus id rather this thread doesnt turn into a flame war of an idiot that cant help him self and needs a general good slaping irl,
on topic, does the GM even read this stuff atleast once a day? lol
cos i persnaly thought this could be something a GM can change as its just something in there own data base, not a modification of graphicsretired from PWI server Heavens Tear, October 2008
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!0 -
well unless you enter the server with a clan thats been together for quite a while you shud be having no problem asking members of other factions to join ya.. if someone just starts playing or has no friends on the server or wot so ever.. you can obvs ask if they wish to leave their faction to join yours. only when you think they are good enough to get in ofc
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Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »or u cud go QQ somewhere else where some1 atualy cares about a word that u can muster out of that pea size brain of urs,
plus id rather this thread doesnt turn into a flame war of an idiot that cant help him self and needs a general good slaping irl,
on topic, does the GM even read this stuff atleast once a day? lol
cos i persnaly thought this could be something a GM can change as its just something in there own data base, not a modification of graphics
Aww are you butthurt?
Are you angry that my "pea sized brain" allows me to type properly?
Aww poor you, did you think that the devs would actually do anything you asked?
You're ****, sorry.
Do you even know what a data base is?
Not to mention, the GMs can't change anything.
My "pea sized brain" > Yours.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Illusion - Heavens Tear wrote: »Something needs to be done.
Go here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist
Works like a treat.0 -
Aww are you butthurt?
why wud my but hurt?
allows u to type properly? so far you type like a demented **** child that was born by accident and is so angry that ur mum or dad gives u no attention that u take it out on ppl on the forums and still do a bad jobAre you angry that my "pea sized brain" allows me to type properly?Aww poor you, did you think that the devs would actually do anything you asked?
well why would there be a suggestion box if they couldent do anything that we ask for hmm? thnk 1st before u type next ****
from my above statement, no sorry, ur the ****, not me, im perfectly normal to not be a angry forum trollYou're ****, sorry.Do you even know what a data base is?
yes i do, i'm studdying on this stuff in college and i atleast no the basics mmmkayNot to mention, the GMs can't change anything.
yes they can change anything thats cash wise, selling in a NPC, prices on Zen items, ext, private servers are direct evidence of thisMy "pea sized brain" > Yours.
to ur above statement, lets reverse it, from everything ive said, do u feel like more of an idiot now? if i was u, id go away and QQ more, kthxbyeretired from PWI server Heavens Tear, October 2008
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!0 -
I'm glad to know my post meant so much to you that you took the time to respond.
Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »why wud my but hurt?
Anal bleeding is a common symptom of retardation.Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »allows u to type properly? so far you type like a demented **** child that was born by accident and is so angry that ur mum or dad gives u no attention that u take it out on ppl on the forums and still do a bad job
Haha, the irony of your response.Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »well why would there be a suggestion box if they couldent do anything that we ask for hmm? thnk 1st before u type next ****
It's more here for officialism / **** and giggles.Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »from my above statement, no sorry, ur the ****, not me, im perfectly normal to not be a angry forum troll
Angry? I think the angry one here is you. lolumad?Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »yes i do, i'm studdying on this stuff in college and i atleast no the basics mmmkay
I sure hope don't present myself the way you do when I'm in college. Does it make you mad that a little kid is getting on your nerves?Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »yes they can change anything thats cash wise, selling in a NPC, prices on Zen items, ext, private servers are direct evidence of this
The GMs are just admins on the game. They don't call the shots for how the game is designed. Devs do that. They aren't going to change anything for an immature customer.
Let me put it in a way you might understand.
It's like going to Rainbow Foods to buy an apple. An apple there costs 25 cents. Because of how cheap it is, a lot of people are buying them. This makes you angry because you think that only cool people like you should be able to have apples. You then go to the cashier and rage for a price increase on the apples. Another customer comes along and points out that the cashier doesn't decide the prices of the apples, he only sells them.
Does what you're trying to do make sense now?Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »to ur above statement, lets reverse it, from everything ive said, do u feel like more of an idiot now? if i was u, id go away and QQ more, kthxbye
No, I don't feel like an idiot at all.
I feel pretty good actually.
Watching downies try to unsuccessfully flame always makes my day. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
well just about everything u wrote just made me lol,
no i aint mad for talking to a 12 year old that thinks he's right, a suggestion box isnt for poops and giggles, and u cant make irony of my response as there was no irony there lol
then again, all forum trolls are alike, have no life, take there unsocial frustration on forums and think there right with everything they say,
keep doing that irl, u may end up as the dustbin man as ur best job u can get as most likely every1 hates u, unless u can prove me other wise?
also when u said """"It's like going to Rainbow Foods to buy an apple. An apple there costs 25 cents. Because of how cheap it is, a lot of people are buying them. This makes you angry because you think that only cool people like you should be able to have apples. You then go to the cashier and rage for a price increase on the apples. Another customer comes along and points out that the cashier doesn't decide the prices of the apples, he only sells them.
Does what you're trying to do make sense now?"""
how in anyway does buying apples relate to a way a mmorpg is ran?
this thread was ment for the GM's to maby take a response to it which is easily do able, and even more easy to change a price of an item,
and dont say its not, cos its 100% possible,
as i said earler, private servers are direct evidence of price changes, zen changes, how much an item costs in zen, what can be put into the cash shop or just a merchant in town,
dont belive me?
want me to give u a screenshot of that evidence that u just need to be the owner of your own server to do that?
and by the looks of this topic it seems the GM'd dont give a rats **** about anything apart from the cash in there pockets, or it wouldent have took them a week and still have no response.retired from PWI server Heavens Tear, October 2008
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!0 -
Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »well just about everything u wrote just made me lol,
no i aint mad for talking to a 12 year old that thinks he's right, a suggestion box isnt for poops and giggles, and u cant make irony of my response as there was no irony there lol
then again, all forum trolls are alike, have no life, take there unsocial frustration on forums and think there right with everything they say,
keep doing that irl, u may end up as the dustbin man as ur best job u can get as most likely every1 hates u, unless u can prove me other wise?
also when u said """"It's like going to Rainbow Foods to buy an apple. An apple there costs 25 cents. Because of how cheap it is, a lot of people are buying them. This makes you angry because you think that only cool people like you should be able to have apples. You then go to the cashier and rage for a price increase on the apples. Another customer comes along and points out that the cashier doesn't decide the prices of the apples, he only sells them.
Does what you're trying to do make sense now?"""
how in anyway does buying apples relate to a way a mmorpg is ran?
this thread was ment for the GM's to maby take a response to it which is easily do able, and even more easy to change a price of an item,
and dont say its not, cos its 100% possible,
as i said earler, private servers are direct evidence of price changes, zen changes, how much an item costs in zen, what can be put into the cash shop or just a merchant in town,
dont belive me?
want me to give u a screenshot of that evidence that u just need to be the owner of your own server to do that?
and by the looks of this topic it seems the GM'd dont give a rats **** about anything apart from the cash in there pockets, or it wouldent have took them a week and still have no response.
You sir, have reached a new level of retardation.
You're obviously very defensive, am I getting to you?
Rofl, "dustbin man"? Was that your job in kindergarden? Did all the kids tease you because of it? Thought it might hurt me as much as it hurt you? Are you afraid to go to old high school reunions because people remember you as "dustbin man"?
If you don't understand my analogy, it's a lost cause posting here.
If you can't make the connection between that statement and what's going on here, I question your acceptance into a college.
You have to understand that no amount of QQing is going to make the GM's, Mods or Devs change anything in the game based on a small handful of player's complaints on their inferiority.
When you mention private servers, everything after that has no bearing on the topic. They're PRIVATE SERVERS.
The people who run them do whatever they want. They're not running the server as a primary source of income, nor do they need to follow models set by other existing servers.
I've played on private servers before, your screenshots mean nothing to me. I know how their premium mall works.
The only part in your post that meant anything was the statement about the GMs not caring about anything but money.
To anyone else reading this thread, if you honestly think that PWI is a F2P game, you're sadly mistaken.
The average player will theoretically spend more money playing this game than any other competitive P2P game out on the market.
As for GMs and Mods not responding, they don't care. Nor are they going to do anything about this thread, or any other thread.
They. Don't. Care.
Why?
Because even if they don't change anything, people will still play. They'll complain and QQ on the forums like everyone else, but they'll keep on playing regardless.
PWE would rather have an unhappy playerbase and a large amount of money than a happy playerbase with less money.
Sure, a larger playerbase with cheaper cash shop items means more people buying more right?
They don't care, this system already works for them and they're going to keep going with it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Aww are you butthurt?
Are you angry that my "pea sized brain" allows me to type properly?
Aww poor you, did you think that the devs would actually do anything you asked?
You're ****, sorry.
Do you even know what a data base is?
Not to mention, the GMs can't change anything.
My "pea sized brain" can't comprehend Yours.
Edited for truth...
Typical Lost City player we have to deal with 24/7 they usually die well there though..and get all butt hurt b:victory
On subject though the price is good in my opinion cause not all guilds are designed for Respect/Griefing and TW and e-peens some just want to play together casually...
Flame away evrilysis no one cares about your tiny IQ0 -
When you mention private servers, everything after that has no bearing on the topic. They're PRIVATE SERVERS.
The people who run them do whatever they want. They're not running the server as a primary source of income, nor do they need to follow models set by other existing servers.
I've played on private servers before, your screenshots mean nothing to me. I know how their premium mall works.
The only part in your post that meant anything was the statement about the GMs not caring about anything but money.
To anyone else reading this thread, if you honestly think that PWI is a F2P game, you're sadly mistaken.
The average player will theoretically spend more money playing this game than any other competitive P2P game out on the market.
As for GMs and Mods not responding, they don't care. Nor are they going to do anything about this thread, or any other thread.
They. Don't. Care.
Why?
Because even if they don't change anything, people will still play. They'll complain and QQ on the forums like everyone else, but they'll keep on playing regardless.
PWE would rather have an unhappy playerbase and a large amount of money than a happy playerbase with less money.
Sure, a larger playerbase with cheaper cash shop items means more people buying more right?
They don't care, this system already works for them and they're going to keep going with it.
well what u just wrote there, is pretty much my thoughts exactly, i cant belive u actualy thought to make a post that prob every1 else is thinking of instead of just making another post of useless insults,
but yea, its been said time and time again, all the GM's want regardless of what server, that being MY,PWI,chinese server ext, ppl complain everywhere but just about 1% of something maby gets sorted, makes me wonder why i even thought to make a single thread in the suggestions,
but to ur top insult, i got into college because i have the right qualifications and was on the last years course, i aint ****, and i aint defensive about anything cos u wasnt getting to me,
so lets just leave it as that and agree the GM's simply dont careretired from PWI server Heavens Tear, October 2008
want to start on Harshlands ASAP!0 -
Tara - Lost City wrote: »Edited for truth...
Typical Lost City player we have to deal with 24/7 they usually die well there though..and get all butt hurt b:victory
On subject though the price is good in my opinion cause not all guilds are designed for Respect/Griefing and TW and e-peens some just want to play together casually...
Flame away evrilysis no one cares about your tiny IQ
You're on LC, yes I know it was directed towards me. What makes you think I play LC?Crash - Heavens Tear wrote: »well what u just wrote there, is pretty much my thoughts exactly, i cant belive u actualy thought to make a post that prob every1 else is thinking of instead of just making another post of useless insults,
but yea, its been said time and time again, all the GM's want regardless of what server, that being MY,PWI,chinese server ext, ppl complain everywhere but just about 1% of something maby gets sorted, makes me wonder why i even thought to make a single thread in the suggestions,
but to ur top insult, i got into college because i have the right qualifications and was on the last years course, i aint ****, and i aint defensive about anything cos u wasnt getting to me,
so lets just leave it as that and agree the GM's simply dont care
The funny thing is when people say that they don't need to spend any money on the game at all, but instead buy premium items from other players.
What they don't understand is that those other players are spending money FOR them. So theoretically, they are still spending money, and PWE is still profiting from them.
No moar trolling?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You're on LC, yes I know it was directed towards me. What makes you think I play LC?
The funny thing is when people say that they don't need to spend any money on the game at all, but instead buy premium items from other players.
What they don't understand is that those other players are spending money FOR them. So theoretically, they are still spending money, and PWE is still profiting from them.
No moar trolling?
Are we a sad little troll?
You first spammed up my posts and then you started to act like a total idiot ands start going around acting like a jackass starting usless topics and posts. You are indeed level 150 in trolling and retardisim. Congradulations!"Death is just a new path, a path everyone has to take." -Gandalf0 -
Maybe we could also have a type of foundation for guilds crossing over. guilds having the option to join anothers as guild partners. haveing two faction buttons to talk in. so you can cross over and maybe ask for help from your other faction partner. maybe that would alsp help to cut down on so amny factions being made and recruiting wouldnt be so hard. and it wouldnt be so hard to collect helpers for a needed quest.
was just a random thought that popped into mind hopefully its not completely useless or a waist of time to read.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Or you shittie guilds could get good.
Then people would know who you were.Had no intention of being constructive.I was already banned.
Silly kiddo.
Just because I had no intension of being constructive doesn't mean that my post didn't mean something.
Change the requirements for guild creation to something too high and you get something like ROHAN.
If you have time to QQ on the forums about trival issues, I suggest you spend more time grinding and getting a name for yourself.
/thread?
Or are you going to grace me with more material to lol at?
why are you so awesome0 -
Don't worry crash, i support you motion, this is the suggestion box, not the 'insult everyone's creative thinking ' box. Something needs to be done about the guilds, me and my fiance (real life) are lookign to join a decent guild once we're leveled high enough, we're only in the 20's as it is. Its hard to keep a guild and have members that can contribute. From personal exp on other games!0
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I don't agree with the thread starter. I can see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I suppose 100k might be a LITTLE too small, but 600k is far too high. Especially considering the fees once you created the guild are much larger, such as the 500k per attack deposit (of which you don't receive all back), and the 2mil you need just to upgrade once. I don't think there's a guild to player ratio concern in this game at all, if you run around you can still find many people who are not guilded. This may be because they don't want to be in a guild, or don't know how, but the main reason is because guild leaders don't always recruit properly. Using a tele to recruit is not always effective.0
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I agree to disagree not all guilds created are TW power guilds and i play solo alt and still get all my stuff done Bosses, FBs etc. Small guilds are there because they want to be small less hassle less morons to deal with like evrilysis...
anyway if you want to be a huge power guild that TWs constantly great wanna be a cheap small group of friends great too people shouldn't be forced into **** cause power guilds deem it so.. (btw most power guilds kill themselves)
and one word too evrilysis hehe......Banned (great job GMs)b:chuckle0
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