so whats this age old BS about baning WF's for fb29/gouf?

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear · October 2008

Good response twilyte, likewise its nice to see somone that can base arguments on facts rather than personal feelings.

I think the ultimate goal of this thread was to inspire a "live and let live" attitude as opposed to the current thinking in game where pretty much everyone is constantly being negative.

Just today me and a friend where grinding while doing that "reward punish" hourly quest and some random person starts to kill in the same area. I tried rather politely to invite said person to the group and isntead i got a "why dont you just leave then" reply and things quickly turned ugly after that.

Similarly it seems that every second person out there just cant wait till u accidently KS them just so they can unleash the worst torrent of swearwords known to mankind and send 45 tickets to GM's about what a badass KS'er you are.
Then there is the vigilante police that reports every 3rd person as using bot programs of hacking or bugging or whatevering.

Thats just a small portion of the way things are currently going, sure it would be just great if the dev's in china decide to fix the flying pet exploit. Then we'd have no problem. (Btw it seems the luring thru doors was fixed, not that it matters cos its exclusive to fb29 and it just saves 1-2min on total run time, not the vast unfounded exagerations of skipping half the dungeon) Until they do fix said issues my personal opinion is that it doesnt negatively affect gameplay for anyone, neither does it give anyone a unfair advantage.
It would be really nice if we could talk to GM's about this but as it stands the GM's are a little(very very much) overcautious with anything remotely 'illegal'. For example making a fat panda = perma ban. I'm going to guess its a case of "we're not 100% sure but just cos there is doubt we'll give u a temp ban as warning and permaban next time"

t0yo · October 2008

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Good response twilyte, likewise its nice to see somone that can base arguments on facts rather than personal feelings.

I think the ultimate goal of this thread was to inspire a "live and let live" attitude as opposed to the current thinking in game where pretty much everyone is constantly being negative.

Just today me and a friend where grinding while doing that "reward punish" hourly quest and some random person starts to kill in the same area. I tried rather politely to invite said person to the group and isntead i got a "why dont you just leave then" reply and things quickly turned ugly after that.

Similarly it seems that every second person out there just cant wait till u accidently KS them just so they can unleash the worst torrent of swearwords known to mankind and send 45 tickets to GM's about what a badass KS'er you are.
Then there is the vigilante police that reports every 3rd person as using bot programs of hacking or bugging or whatevering.

Thats just a small portion of the way things are currently going, sure it would be just great if the dev's in china decide to fix the flying pet exploit. Then we'd have no problem. (Btw it seems the luring thru doors was fixed, not that it matters cos its exclusive to fb29 and it just saves 1-2min on total run time, not the vast unfounded exagerations of skipping half the dungeon) Until they do fix said issues my personal opinion is that it doesnt negatively affect gameplay for anyone, neither does it give anyone a unfair advantage.
It would be really nice if we could talk to GM's about this but as it stands the GM's are a little(very very much) overcautious with anything remotely 'illegal'. For example making a fat panda = perma ban. I'm going to guess its a case of "we're not 100% sure but just cos there is doubt we'll give u a temp ban as warning and permaban next time"

We don't have said problems in Lost City. C:

mrkrom · October 2008

Hai, my main is a veno n yes i used said glitch to kill gouf, but i spent about an hour running around arch trying to find help for gouf beforehand and got no replies, so i jus went and did it. I knew it was a glitch beforehand as i was informed of it and common sense told me it would be a glitch, but no-one offered to help me so i saw i had no choice at that point and the only way to continue with the game was to do it. I went back to the same spot a few hours after gaining more quests and completing them and watched a parry WITH a veno kill gouf normally, fair play. It can be done both ways, shunning a veno for solo glitching gouf seems abit harsh, how about offering them a hand doing it the right way next time? If they are in a large, capable party then yeah by all means report the lot of them, if they can do it they shouldn't depend on a glitch. As for the archer glitch in zhen that i have read, omfg SHAME ON YOU ARCHERS! if there's a legit way (said squishy mages) then use that method, just have a couple of good clerics spamming him. I know i'm going to get a repy about ToS, probably from thom (Hai thereb:bye) yes i know what you're going to say already as you've already said it a thousand times, feel free to report me to gm's and let them know i am willing to accept just punishment for knowingly using a glitch when no-one would help when i asked, most probably because i'm a veno. And no, i'm not over exaggerating, it was almost an hour i was in arch shouting my head off

swiftlikeafox · October 2008

We can't make fat pandas?!?!?! Why in the world not?????????????????

I'm assuming that you're joking about that... but please don't, this thread is confusing enough as it is.b:shocked

thom · October 2008

mrkrom wrote: »

Hai, my main is a veno n yes i used said glitch to kill gouf, but i spent about an hour running around arch trying to find help for gouf beforehand and got no replies, so i jus went and did it. I knew it was a glitch beforehand as i was informed of it and common sense told me it would be a glitch, but no-one offered to help me so i saw i had no choice at that point and the only way to continue with the game was to do it. I went back to the same spot a few hours after gaining more quests and completing them and watched a parry WITH a veno kill gouf normally, fair play. It can be done both ways, shunning a veno for solo glitching gouf seems abit harsh, how about offering them a hand doing it the right way next time? If they are in a large, capable party then yeah by all means report the lot of them, if they can do it they shouldn't depend on a glitch. As for the archer glitch in zhen that i have read, omfg SHAME ON YOU ARCHERS! if there's a legit way (said squishy mages) then use that method, just have a couple of good clerics spamming him. I know i'm going to get a repy about ToS, probably from thom (Hai thereb:bye) yes i know what you're going to say already as you've already said it a thousand times, feel free to report me to gm's and let them know i am willing to accept just punishment for knowingly using a glitch when no-one would help when i asked, most probably because i'm a veno. And no, i'm not over exaggerating, it was almost an hour i was in arch shouting my head off

Nah pointless trying to tell people what the GM's stand on the issue is. I think i just let GM's do their jobs and just inform people what will happen for it.

All they try to say is that they do it because of this or that or whatever, which is pointless in this matter. GM's said its a bug,using it an exploit and punish accordingly.

Your opinion or mine doesnt matter in this case in any way.

I'm sad to hear you couldnt find a party to do it, but that still doesnt justify cheating.

What do you think of everyone else of any class,who has to do the same as you, trying to find party for hours,getting none, and still having no way of completing the quest, unlike you could,by exploiting a bug? Still don't consider it unfair advantage? 5 out of 6 classes in game cant do what you can. Still not unfair?

You do understand that you really aren't the only one who has to find a party for hours and not find one?

Why would you be left out of squads for just being a venomancer? Not a single person i know does that because someone is a venomancer. Are people afraid to take you into squad since you can use a bug? Veno's are very helpful in luring the guards of bosses away if party isn't strong enough to deal with them and boss at same time.

To Swiftlikeafox: Editing Ini-files was also announced to be against rules and they will reset your char. Repeatable offences will result in ban as far as i know.

swiftlikeafox · October 2008

Ummmmm, I can make a fat panda without editing any ini files.... or at the very least a chubby out of shape panda.......

thom · October 2008

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

Ummmmm, I can make a fat panda without editing any ini files.... or at the very least a chubby out of shape panda.......

If you can do it with the sliders in character creation, then its okay.

If you tamper with the ini-files in any way, GM's will act.

swiftlikeafox · October 2008

well then why did you assume right off hand I was talking about editing ini files???? I've never even opened any of the ini files to look at them...... and just for the record iv'e never "bugged" a boss either(not that I ever would), but I have on PLENTY of occasions used air pets to attack land mobs, and even water mobs that came to close to the surface, and i've hovered directly over the heads of melee land mobs while attacking in feeble attempts to reduce or completely eliminate any damage I might take..... why are these things frowned upon? and how could anyone consider them "bugs"??????

thom · October 2008

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

well then why did you assume right off hand I was talking about editing ini files???? I've never even opened any of the ini files to look at them...... and just for the record iv'e never "bugged" a boss either(not that I ever would), but I have on PLENTY of occasions used air pets to attack land mobs, and even water mobs that came to close to the surface, and i've hovered directly over the heads of melee land mobs while attacking in feeble attempts to reduce or completely eliminate any damage I might take..... why are these things frowned upon? and how could anyone consider them "bugs"??????

Because fat panda's were done with that, just like stick thin characters.
My apology for assuming you meant that, thats just the only fat panda that is usually talked about.

Yeah, well when you do that, they regen back to full health if they cant hit your pet, don't they? Or at least they are hitting your pet? And you do half damage on them when attacking from air to ground or water.

This isnt about that,its about boss bugging where those bosses dont regen hp or attack back or move anywhere.
Its a bug in the code.
Read the whole thread to understand what it is about.

gattsuru · October 2008

swiftlikeafox wrote: »

We can't make fat pandas?!?!?! Why in the world not?????????????????

I'm assuming that you're joking about that... but please don't, this thread is confusing enough as it is.b:shocked

Creating any character within the in-game character customization limits is perfectly acceptable. The "fat panda" comment is likely assumed to refer to an edit of client files which, like direct modification of any other client file, is not allowed, and a ban-worthy offense.

It's also a rather stupid way to lose an account, since it's both something that can only be done intentionally, and which is broadcast to everyone within a few hundred feet

krystar · October 2008

xkwisite wrote: »

Because it's a very well known bug. That would require a lot of time to fix and people are knowingly exploiting this bug. Bug Exploitation=bad

Typical whining RQ...boo fn hoo.

Seilen - Heavens Tear · October 2008

One thing is realy ridiculous. Glitch bug is there long time and they realy dont care too much to fix it.
Insted ban players for using their standard skills (ie water/land/air pets) is not fair.
If you want to ban for this make some tutorial on beggining for venos whitch they cannot skip a WARN THEM REASONABLY.
Other way they maybe dont know that what they do is banable and eventual banning them for this is not realy FAIR.

I can understand for banning when someon try **** or avoid game mechanics, but for god sake fix this bug and not ban for standart using of skills whitch class have available.

Dont make me wrong, i realy hate many venos for several reasons (ie KSing, covering NPCs with pets etc) but i dont like when there is something unfair.

Kyou - Heavens Tear · October 2008

thom wrote: »

Hehe well all that you said just there, is up to GM's to decide. Not us.
They decided they are bugs.

So let's use so-hated logic then.

If GM's think that this is a bug that should be fixed and no other PW version thinks it is, primarily Chinese PW, that would mean this version GM's think that Chinese PW GM's are idiots for not fixing it. Which is offensive to think since their team created it.

Real question is: Why didn't they fix it YET or announce it's forbidden to do so OFFICIALLY?

P.s. thom? Why do I see you defending your opinions (against everyone) so hard on about 5 page? Are you fixed on making this game your own? Maybe you aim for the GM status? Or maybe you're just overopiniated? Tell us about it.

b:chuckle

thom · October 2008

Kyou - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So let's use so-hated logic then.

If GM's think that this is a bug that should be fixed and no other PW version thinks it is, primarily Chinese PW, that would mean this version GM's think that Chinese PW GM's are idiots for not fixing it. Which is offensive to think since their team created it.

Real question is: Why didn't they fix it YET or announce it's forbidden to do so OFFICIALLY?

P.s. thom? Why do I see you defending your opinions (against everyone) so hard on about 5 page? Are you fixed on making this game your own? Maybe you aim for the GM status? Or maybe you're just overopiniated? Tell us about it.

b:chuckle

Just felt like people didn't understand that this statement has come from the GM's. So i tried to explain it fully and in all aspects why they decided its a bug, as it is plain to see that it infact is a bug.

This was discussed even before CB as was discussed editing Ini-files,which also was said to be against rules. GM's keep it fair here, starting from the small bugs to big bugs.

Most opinions opposing this only are because people cant find party to kill it the fair way or simply cant kill it,be it low lvls,skills or weak equips.

That is a very good question, why isn't it fixed yet. Only Dev's know.

Well i would not go saying what GM's here think about PW china and it doesnt even matter. They have their rules on their version and we have ours. I'm not a mind reader and i believe neither are you. There's no logic in what you posted.

Why didnt you go and compare to my-en server version then, where every cheat is allowed?

I want game to be fair for all and i've seen way too many games fall to cheating/botting because of no actions taken early enough. It all starts from little things and here GM's are doing great job in handling these.

Thats why i post and inform people about this. I also enjoy nice debate's.

Why, may i ask, you are taking it so personally?

P.S. I don't need to even defend my opinion, as GM's have stated its a bug and bannable offence. If you had read the whole thread, you would see that i told it several times.

thom · October 2008

Seilen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

One thing is realy ridiculous. Glitch bug is there long time and they realy dont care too much to fix it.
Insted ban players for using their standard skills (ie water/land/air pets) is not fair.
If you want to ban for this make some tutorial on beggining for venos whitch they cannot skip a WARN THEM REASONABLY.
Other way they maybe dont know that what they do is banable and eventual banning them for this is not realy FAIR.

I can understand for banning when someon try **** or avoid game mechanics, but for god sake fix this bug and not ban for standart using of skills whitch class have available.

Dont make me wrong, i realy hate many venos for several reasons (ie KSing, covering NPCs with pets etc) but i dont like when there is something unfair.

You don't get ban for first time. You get a warning. That should be enough to tell you that what you did isn't allowed.

You can shift+click NPC's if they are crowded.

turtlewax · October 2008

Twilyte - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... circumnavigate the intended game mechanics ...

We can not know the intended game mechanics, we can only observe the actual game mechanics.

The game world has it's own mechanics and when I play I try to find out what these rules are and which actions I can best use within the rules of these mechanics to get my character where I want her to be. Nothing more, nothing less. If (magic) projectiles go through walls, they go through walls. My character's been hit by rocks that went straight through walls ... should I now refrain her from casting a venomous scarab through that same wall?

I use an air pet sometimes even when fighting on land and particularly in new and unknown area's or when accidentally aggroing multiple seems likely. The reason is that air pets, unlike their land based cousins, are not immediately stowed away when I need to fly up, which can buy me a few extra moments to get out of harms reach. I haven't noticed that this upsets the critters so much that they become sitting ducks, but if they did, so be it. Should I rather maim my character by not using a reasonable tactic, just to avoid upsetting any flawed AI?

I single out and pull individual monsters from larger clusters to avoid multiple aggro (especially in air or water. I learn how far apart they must be to avoid aggro from anything but my target, where to park and when to engage my pet and with which skills. Is any of that abusing a glich?

If there's specific program behaviour that we should know about to avoid then be specific and exact about what program behaviour that is.

Venoblood - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A glitch is a bug, a bug is a glitch. Stop referring to the two as separate actions, because it is one and the same

To begin, they aren't actions.
A bug is behaviour of a program that is not according to how it was designed to behave. A glitch is a random, freak occurrence of unintended behaviour and is usually difficult to reproduce. A bug is usually a reproducible occurrence of unintended behaviour. A glitch could be seen as a bug, but they are definitely not the same thing.

Twilyte - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You argue that they shouldn't fix the veno w/ flying pet bug by pointing out they haven't fixed the archer/zehn bug.

You misrepresent her argument, which was that there are bigger issues with more effect on the game then veno's bugging three bosses, yet everyone is in an uproar about the veno's.

Seilen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... covering NPCs with pets ....

Please more Golem hate, I need more reasons to ditch this huge pile of stone (it's in my way too, shift or no). A lot more reasons, because it's such a frigging solid damage spunge.

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear · October 2008

gattsuru wrote: »

Creating any character within the in-game character customization limits is perfectly acceptable. The "fat panda" comment is likely assumed to refer to an edit of client files which, like direct modification of any other client file, is not allowed, and a ban-worthy offense.

It's also a rather stupid way to lose an account, since it's both something that can only be done intentionally, and which is broadcast to everyone within a few hundred feet

Which exactly illustrates my point. I think the phrase they use for this behaviour is called "The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law)
It's like the staff(and in game vigilantes) of PW-I is trying a little to hard to ban players for things thats totally benine. I would much rather see players getting banned for swearing like sailors at others, at least that way you get rid of the really "bad" elements in the game and it benefits the comunity as a whole.

Banning somone for something that doesnt give him/her any advantage and could potentially help lots of players that cant find a tank to help, is another case of missing the "spirit of the law".

If you kill somone in self defence you don't goto jail, even tho u DID break the law that sais "you're not allowed to murder ppl". If the legal system was anything like the GM's here a lot of innocent ppl would be in prison.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

me and 3 others got banned earlier today for this.

i was flying around healing. (figured if we died i could res) i didnt know they wernt supos tto be flying either, i jsut didnt want to get attacked. i dont htink thats fair i got a 1 day ban and i didnt know it was a bug or that i could get banned for it.

Onishi - Heavens Tear · October 2008

Vixenish - Heavens Tear wrote: »

me and # others got banned earlier today for this.

we tryed it the right way. and died. we tired about 4 or 5 tmes.. thats 20% to 25% of our lvl...

(me a cleric 2 venos and a barb) we got tired of dyign so we tryed to do it with the flying. was working good. but slow. and even the Flying veno pet was getting owned. and we were still dying form flying.

so im kinda idsaponted about being banned for it... there is just no way for a group of the quest requirment lvl people so kill him. u will need atleast 2 groups.

i odnt htink its fair

plus im SOOO bored...b:cry

Sounds to me like someone in your party just wasn't pulling their weight. First time I killed gouf, I was a 39 cleric, had a 39 barb a 41 wizard and 2 40 venos. 1 veno was using a wolf, the other a golum. The only death from that run was the wolf. Hard yes very I probably burned a good 20-30k off my MP charm, and the tank probably burned some of his HP charm. Impossible? not even close.

Onishi - Heavens Tear · October 2008

Vixenish - Heavens Tear wrote: »

me and 3 others got banned earlier today for this.

i was flying around healing. (figured if we died i could res) i didnt know they wernt supos tto be flying either, i jsut didnt want to get attacked. i dont htink thats fair i got a 1 day ban and i didnt know it was a bug or that i could get banned for it.

Aah sorry my first post was before your edit. You sound like you actually don't know what your party did. Clerics flying above the battlefield healing isn't a bug or a glitch, that is using what you have. Killing or healing from the air is not a glitch by any means.

What someone was busted doing was, using a flying pet as a tank. Gouf cannot hit flying pets so the tank takes 0 damage throughout the battle. Flying players, if the boss can't hit, the boss becomes invincible. Pets, the boss continues taking damage, and just stands there while the pet slowly kills him.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

well the tank was still taking damage while he was on his little ray thing... cuz i was still healing. and i may have threw in a few spells. but since i was not taking is that still aginst the rules??

im scared this is going ot effect my Account. i didnt know any diffrent

surtr · October 2008

If the situation was as you described, you should be fine. The exploit involves using a venomancer's flying pet, not using a barbarian on his flying mount.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

oh i think one of the venos had out ummm the one that looks like a dog thats flys.. foxwing i belive...

grrr so shes teh reason im locked out of my Account for a day.. thats messed up. its not my fault. i cant contol what pet he/she (other people) use.

and the flying pet wasnt even tanking.. the barb was.

surtr · October 2008

If you wish to contest what happened, please submit a ticket to customer support.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

already submitted one. trying to figure out were my answer goes.

and jsut to make sure im correct. its not because we were all flying? it was because of the veno having out a flying pet?

Smexxyfox - Heavens Tear · October 2008

@surtr , so you see what I'm talking about?

Gm's in game are so bloody over-anxious to ban players that they gave a whole party a 1day ban for doing nothing at all wrong. If the barb was flying and tanking the boss there is nothing wrong with having air pets assist the barbarian. These players are obviousley new to the game and only tried to think out of the box to solve a difficult problem. Not everyone has charms either and most of the newbies dont build their beasts right for tanking.

I don't know the particulars but from this post its safe to assume that the GM didin't even inform the players why they got banned? How would you feel if somone 1st beat you and then later give u the reason why, or not even give a reason at all?

I understand you don't want the game to become corrupt and get a bad rep like many other botfests out there, but there is also such a thing as taking it to far. Just banning left right and centre is a little harsh.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

i saw on another post that someone got a email explaing why they were banned. i have yet to recive one of those all i know is we were fighting hte boss. all of a sudden got tellyed to "the broken bow bluff" and hten ~5 mins later got a "GM Whispers: you are banned for 1 day for exployting a world boss" about 10 mins later got kicked offline

surtr · October 2008

I'm afraid I cannot comment on the actions taken by the GMs. If you wish to register a complaint, you may do so through customer support.

Vixenish - Heavens Tear · October 2008

Hello, we have screenshots of your character flying in exactly the same position
as the other players doing damage, implying that this was an organized effort by
the group that you willfully participated in. Furthermore, the nature of the
exploit entails that no healing or rezzing would have possibly been necessary.
Your ban will expire in 21 hours.

i didnt know it was a bug.. i was trying to help out and keep my mana to pop off heals when needed... this isnt fair..

and if there was a screen shot then it should show u its attacking the tank now the pet...

Onishi - Heavens Tear · October 2008

To be honest, from my perspective it does sound like a misunderstanding. Sounds like you really didn't know what was going on, and possibly even the veno didn't know what she was doing either.

On the other hand. It's a 1 day ban... suck it up seriously. Most likely the developers slap a 1 day ban on cases that seem to be "highly possible" cheaters when there isn't proof. I have had friends in other games who were banned for 6 months for a misunderstanding (well I think it was intended to be a 1 week ban, that the gm's forgot, and ignored his tickets asking what was going on for 5 months). So while our GM's aren't "perfect", they could be a hell of alot worse.

Go read a book lol, tell you what though, if you PM me, I'll try and see if I can get you some help on killing gouf.

so whats this age old BS about baning WF's for fb29/gouf?

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