Squad Random Distribution

eliatron
eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
edited March 2010 in Dungeons & Tactics
Hi,

Im posting this here because im not sure if it is a bug. Im a 31 lvl cleric and I have been playing with some others players some time.
Problem is that even if item distribution is random, most of the time I only receive coins every time a mod is killed. Generally Im only healing char, so I dont do direct damage to mobs.
My question is if it works this way or theres a problem.
Rates are: Every ten items, I only receive 2 (top).
This fact of course brings a disadvantage because others members of the squad are getting DQ items, and me only 100 coins!

Anyone knows why?

Thank You!
To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
Post edited by eliatron on
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Comments

  • xauss
    xauss Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    you get 2/10 items?

    in a party of 5 you are getting your fair share...

    however, it does sometimes feel like you are getting 'robbed' by chance when you fail to reach your share, and that tends to stick in your mind more than those occasions when chance gives you more
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Birdie - Heavens Tear
    Birdie - Heavens Tear Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I too am a level 32 cleric and have done 15 or so FBs level 19 and 29. In every instance drops fell from the final boss (not coins). the drops do count to more than ten also. I, as the cleric, who heals and does not do any damage to the boss, DO NOT GET MY FAIR SHARE. It is not my imagination.
    I just wish someone, in the know, would post here and let us know what determines who gets what for drops.

    in all of my runs (including any I did on MY version, about 15 there) I have received 1 molder.
    This figure is fine and is probably correct for the number of times I have run. In that run I recieved...one item. I have had at least 4 runs where I, as the cleric, did not recieve ANYTHING. this happened on my last fb29, my own tab btw. I got zip. Normally, I recieve 1-2 items and they are usually pots. Which is not fine because I can't use them for 8-12 levels so I end up selling.

    I believe I will keep a list of items that I recieve compared to the rest of the squad. In the run for my fb29 I had one level 48,36, 31 (me), 30 and a 29. The 48 was the tank of course. He got 7 items, all armour, (i counted). I got zip! luckily he gave me a couple of items but that is rare for that to happen.

    So I will post my next five runs with the results and see what I find.
    but I fully agree that as clerics we are shafted in the random as we do not do damage.
  • silv
    silv Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I kind of felt this too however i finally found out how to make it so that when u click an item u get it and it dosen't go randomly. Before u create a squad, bring up the squad box (u know the box that u use to invite people and it shows whos nearby) and then on the bottom right hand corner of the box their are 2 bottons: random and Free. Click Free (so the check is in the button) and then invite people into ur squad. And there u go. Now u'll get the items u click on and the others will.
  • xauss
    xauss Posts: 223 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Birdie - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In the run for my fb29 I had one level 48,36, 31 (me), 30 and a 29. The 48 was the tank of course. He got 7 items, all armour, (i counted). I got zip! luckily he gave me a couple of items but that is rare for that to happen.

    So I will post my next five runs with the results and see what I find.
    but I fully agree that as clerics we are shafted in the random as we do not do damage.

    if 1 player gets all 7 items, someone set party distribution to individual (who picks gets)... whoever set up the party made sure the tank got them all. in this case the pt was prolly set up by the higher level, who made sure that if anything of value dropped he would get it everytime you do an instance check your party window to make sure there is random distribution (it also will tell you when you are invited to a party hos distribution is set, but few ppl pay attention to that and just click yes.)

    however, in cases where random distribution is set, we have seen this complaint many times (and not just from EPs) on other versions. my experiences using ranged chars in general get less drops than BBs / BMs more often than not

    the official line (from other versions) has always been that random distribution is just that, (not determined by level / damage etc) so every drop has an equal chance to be picked by any party member.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • eliatron
    eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Well, I think theres a mistake and something must be done! I keep making partys and keep getting nothing. Recently on Heavens I made party with a 32 lvl blademaster, im 31 lvl. Mobs dropped 10 dew of herbs, i got none. Items dropped reaced 25, i got 3 of them. Can random be the answer?
    I guess not. Randon means that theres no possibility to know what will happen and the distribution of items will be equal, like flipping a coin thousands of time, we know it will be 50% each side.
    Now... this is not happening in my case... I believe we need an answer from GM, this is actually a problem. I prefer to wait, waste time than make a party, cause in the end is not lucrative for me! XP and SP are good, but without items, everyone sucks and Ill be back in equipment department.
    To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
  • peregryn
    peregryn Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    eliatron wrote: »
    Well, I think theres a mistake and something must be done! I keep making partys and keep getting nothing. Recently on Heavens I made party with a 32 lvl blademaster, im 31 lvl. Mobs dropped 10 dew of herbs, i got none. Items dropped reaced 25, i got 3 of them. Can random be the answer?
    I guess not. Randon means that theres no possibility to know what will happen and the distribution of items will be equal, like flipping a coin thousands of time, we know it will be 50% each side.
    Now... this is not happening in my case... I believe we need an answer from GM, this is actually a problem. I prefer to wait, waste time than make a party, cause in the end is not lucrative for me! XP and SP are good, but without items, everyone sucks and Ill be back in equipment department.

    Incorrect understanding of random. What random means is theres no possibility to know what will happen, like flipping a coin thousands of times each time the coin is flipped there is an equal chance it will land on each side.

    But random also means with a sample of 1,000 you can get heads anywhere from 1-1,000 times, 50/50 distribution is quite rare in a random set.

    Now please do not take this wrong, but the party system is not at fault. If you do not find parties with random loot 'lucrative' then don't join parties with that loot setting, and certainly when you form the party use a different setting.
    Perhaps the greatest secret to getting along with others lies in learning to respect their opinion(s) even while you disagree with them.
  • eliatron
    eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    But random also means with a sample of 1,000 you can get heads anywhere from 1-1,000 times, 50/50 distribution is quite rare in a random set.
    Youre right about that, but you're forgetting possibilites! Its no common to get 2 out of 20 items in a TWO based party. CAN happend, its possible, but its unlikely. And when it starts happening EVERY time you party, then, there must be some problem, and Im not the only one.
    And if every cleric does not one to party, because lose loot, then everyone will take more time levelling up, making fb, since there wont be cleric that would like to party.

    Its not the party system the issue, but its how random (the most typical party loot system seetings) that is not working.
    To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    This random is hardly random. I've done more than one fb 39 where I didn't get ONE item the entire time and I would watch one person get 5 or 6 in a row.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Hisui - Heavens Tear
    Hisui - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,369 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    nope, in a bigger picture it all works out.

    lets say... out of 10,000 players 10 players have experienced great anomalies in drop rates. So you guys who notice this might have been one of the unlucky ones in this greater dice roll. So in a grander possibility, you yourself are the "very unlikely"

    get it? :rolleyes:
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  • eliatron
    eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Excuse, but thats not a scietific fact. It does not have even an argument that sustains itself. Its nonsense. We are giving facts, and its happening mostly to cleric.
    If needed Ill investigate ingame, and Ill show you numbers
    To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
  • zammy
    zammy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I am also a cleric, and I too have noticed, that even with random drop on, inside FB, I get nothing from the boss drop unless I run right in and start grabbing, which is difficult being a cleric because you are at maximum range.
  • eliatron
    eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Well, I guess we are adding people that has this issue. Good!
    More ppl means its a problem and not some fantasy of mine!

    Please, record every problem you had so we can report it to support system
    To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
  • Avernus - Lost City
    Avernus - Lost City Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I've noticed it's happened to me a lot in a two-person squad, but I've got the fortune that my squadmate is my significant other, so if it's an item I need, or she thinks my char needs, she readily gives the item(s) to me (and vice versa, though I often don't have anything she needs :( ).

    But I know not everyone else has that advantage, and it seems unfair that we'd even have to consider suggesting selecting "free distribution" since the point of the EP is to keep an eye on our party memebers' HP; it's terribly inefficient if we've got to spend time picking up an item when we could be healing, especially if it's downtime doing FB, when it's so important to keep the tank full.
  • Birdie - Heavens Tear
    Birdie - Heavens Tear Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    of keeping track of the drops during FB's
    I have only done one since this post began (after i did my tab and got zip)

    I will post numbers when i have them.
    I am keeping track of the level char, who gets what and what the items are.

    The one i did yesterday is like this:
    Human FB 19
    player 1-- level 36-- 4 drops-- mat/mat/note/armour
    player 2 -- level 40 and tank-- 1 drop -- armour
    player 3 -- level 19 -- 3 drops -- pot/mat/armour
    player 4-- level 21 -- 4 drops -- mat/mat/jade/armour
    player 5 -- level 26 -- 3 drops -- pot/mat/armour
    player 6 (me) -- level 32 -- 3 drops -- blood thingy (not sure if this is a drop as I get one everytime i do an FB)/mat/pot. The xenoblood thing goes to everyone then I only got 2 drops.

    This is just one example and it is showing pretty much random here. The tank did NOT get the most items in this situation.
    I still feel that the cleric is being denied due to no damage done. I will post more samples as I do some more runs. I feel this is the only way to determine if it is as random as everyone feels it is. Plus, it will let me know if I am just venting w/o having all the facts.

    Feel free to keep notes as to what happens on your next run. you can scroll the chat bar up to see what everyone got and you can get your figures from that once the run is over.

    If it shows that I am feeling cheated when in reality I am not....well then I will hush up :p
  • silvergsx
    silvergsx Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Birdie - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I still feel that the cleric is being denied due to no damage done. I will post more samples as I do some more runs. I feel this is the only way to determine if it is as random as everyone feels it is. Plus, it will let me know if I am just venting w/o having all the facts.

    I don't think its just the cleric. I played as a archer and most of the time i would get a less then equal share of drops (mob or boss). At first, I assume it has something to do with the range. But then even when i run up and pick up the drops, it would usually go toward the melee guys.
  • kami
    kami Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I am wiz and I unfortunately the same thing happens to me too. Maybe the luck is character dependent though funny enough my bf's char(also wiz) seems to have similar drop rate to mine. I agree to the fact that the party looting system should be re-checked.

    And yeah I am pretty sure that veno's will never complain about party distrib...I wonder why? ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • eliatron
    eliatron Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Well... I just finished helping some guys to do fb19. All I have to say is that a got 75% of the coins. Hows that RANDOM? Actually a guy complained that he was getting no gold at all.
    Items, well, lets say i got a few, but I was algo damaging mobs since we were two veno 22-23 lvl and me, 32 lvl, so my help was needed.
    Overall, this time I got a "few" more items, but also my overall damage to mobs was higher.
    I still believe that random items distribution is not working. Ill try making a fb without doing damage.
    To heal is to be in control. Being in control make you smarter.
  • Voiceoflight - Heavens Tear
    Voiceoflight - Heavens Tear Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I am curious to know, does distance from the team have anything to do with it. A cleric or caster will often stay at max range that is possible to cast, when drops are picked up, perhaps you are not within range to be counted in the games random "roll" for that item. Not certian of this, just a possibility.
  • kwyl
    kwyl Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I am a lvl 28 veno and haven't joined a party when I need something specific in several levelings since I was needing 2 dull claws and 2 dropped and went to others. I was only getting coins. I didn't keep the details of that run or the only run I did after it but twice in a row it happened to me so I have stopped. To me random means that will happen to you once in a while not twice in a row. Just saying....
  • clair
    clair Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    Both with my archer and my veno, I've seen nothing but random distribution. For a while I didn't feel like I was getting my fair share of fb loot, but lately it's been the opposite. I'd say it's completely random, as I see nothing but people posting negatively about drop rates ;)
  • kwyl
    kwyl Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    I'd say it's completely random, as I see nothing but people posting negatively about drop rates

    I'm not sure what that statement means. btw there is another thread on this in general discussion.
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=66551
  • Elrosian - Heavens Tear
    Elrosian - Heavens Tear Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited September 2008
    It isn't just clerics, archers, or Wizards. I am a BM and have done many instances. I have been the puller in all, and I have been the tank in about 4 of them. Throughout all of these I have gotten only xenoblood, potions, 1 mould, and an occasional dq item. It seemed even for the Barbs, Clerics, Archers, Venos, Wizards, and other BMs teamed with me, but I got nothing. So, it isn't because you don't do/take enough damage, because in many of these I would give the most damage or take the most. Not sure what it is.
  • vallove00
    vallove00 Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    About 'Free' and 'Random' mode...

    Random - Item being random pick when someone in your party take it.. As per advise by others, out of 100 picks, you might all get coins instead of item itself. It's just too random... Sometimes, I saw people take up 3* or 2* item in my party, while I get coins... Kinda hate it sometimes...

    Free - The one who picks up get the items. So perhaps its a better choice...
  • Shikyura - Sanctuary
    Shikyura - Sanctuary Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Birdie - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I too am a level 32 cleric and have done 15 or so FBs level 19 and 29. In every instance drops fell from the final boss (not coins). the drops do count to more than ten also. I, as the cleric, who heals and does not do any damage to the boss, DO NOT GET MY FAIR SHARE. It is not my imagination.
    I just wish someone, in the know, would post here and let us know what determines who gets what for drops.

    in all of my runs (including any I did on MY version, about 15 there) I have received 1 molder.
    This figure is fine and is probably correct for the number of times I have run. In that run I recieved...one item. I have had at least 4 runs where I, as the cleric, did not recieve ANYTHING. this happened on my last fb29, my own tab btw. I got zip. Normally, I recieve 1-2 items and they are usually pots. Which is not fine because I can't use them for 8-12 levels so I end up selling.

    I believe I will keep a list of items that I recieve compared to the rest of the squad. In the run for my fb29 I had one level 48,36, 31 (me), 30 and a 29. The 48 was the tank of course. He got 7 items, all armour, (i counted). I got zip! luckily he gave me a couple of items but that is rare for that to happen.

    So I will post my next five runs with the results and see what I find.
    but I fully agree that as clerics we are shafted in the random as we do not do damage.

    on the contrary....i being the dpser...the cleric got all my drops...
  • Moander - Heavens Tear
    Moander - Heavens Tear Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Lvl 56 Barbarian here, over 40+ FB runs various levels.....

    Random works to a degree. I've gone totally dropless on one run, then the next, I get a lion's share of the drops.
    On the next run, the entire party gets a fair distribution.

    When I squad with my GF/cleric, she seems to get all the drops, then, out of nowhere, I start getting them.

    The problem with Random is the lack of randomness at times. It's as if 'Random' gets stuck on one person for awhile, then finally 'unsticks'.

    I've seen 'Random' in other MMO's where the algorithm seems a lot less likely to dwell on one person for a time, switching through all members of the group equally.....
  • Celebren - Heavens Tear
    Celebren - Heavens Tear Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    can it depend also on free slots in our invs ? what i mean is if someone has 15 free slots he gets more "random drops" then other one who only has 3 free slots ?
    i just noticed the last day that when my inv is full - drops go to other players. Ok thats normal so far and teh drop system nitices your free slots in inv. So i think in this random disribution is also involved free space in inv.
    With only 1 free slot i get less drops then with 5 free slots i noticed. Hopefully an GM or / and DEV can give us info about drop distribution system
    justice might be blind - but i also see in darkness
  • Kami_poi - Lost City
    Kami_poi - Lost City Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    maybe the random should have it so if someone gets an item the next thing they get should be gold and cycle between item and gold would add a better variable so that if someone got gold last time they get an item next or just split the gold between all players and make random only on the items so that the gold doesnt play a role in spoiling the randomness.and yea i do notice me a cleric gets less items usualy more gold...and im a hybrid i do more dmg then the person i party with and he usualy gets every item lucky me he shares.
  • cottman
    cottman Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Some posts before explained random mathematically. In computer programing, random is random only if the seed is generated randomly. It is not hard to do that. However, I've seen codes that forgot to use true random seed when it should be used.

    An extreme example is that you form a party, kill 100 mobs and record the drops (seems random). Form the same party and kill the same mobs the same order. You will see the same distribution of random drops. This is the extreme stupid case. The problem could be less obvious but still not true random.
  • Bobncut - Sanctuary
    Bobncut - Sanctuary Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    Psychology studies have consistently found that people, no matter how educated, have systematic misperceptions about randomness. One of the most common ones is that "runs" of the same outcome ("I seem to always get nothing.") are taken as a sign that the underlying process is not random. The mis-expectation that a random event will be "fair" in a small sample even has a name "The Law of Small Numbers." The math actually only predicts a convergence of the observed outcomes to the underlying probabilities (i.e., that half of all coin flips will be tails) in a very large set of observations (The Law of Large Numbers holds for infinite repititions of an experiment).

    Two questions have been raised here which make a lot of sense: (1) Is it possible that the range attackers are getting outside a magic circle where they are not treated as having helped on the kill? This certainly happens for kill count quests so we know the program has a toggle for distance. Could it be affecting item distribution, too? That would seem okay in the outside world, but it ought to get turned off in dungeons. (2) Is there any way (other than grouping only with your significant other) to get a distribution system that makes everyone happier in the long run? The developers could tinker with the calculation to make the allocation probabilities for each new item depend on the allocations so far since the squad was formed. The only cost to the code's efficiency would be the need to track one extra variable per player in the squad and it seems like it would still be a random allocation that left fewer instances of people feeling cheated. Assuming they don't make this simple change, has anyone had positive results from an informal agreement from the squad's start to reallocate before dispersing?
  • Hazardus - Heavens Tear
    Hazardus - Heavens Tear Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2008
    I have noticed a similar thing about parties.....but I'm the barbarian up front.

    I party once in a while, but whenever I do I usually only get coins, pots, and the occasional "lucky note" which 99% of the time = more pots. I have so far only ever got three items while partying.

    I think it might be that its damage dependent since I'm the one that usually does less damage as compared to the Archer/Mage/BM/Veno that I'm tanking for.....

    But yeah I'll agree the "random" is not random enough.
    When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
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