By Request - offline gold/Territory income
batjack
Posts: 1 Arc User
When I discovered a BOT and made a ingame report, one of the Developers arrived. Of course he noticed the BOT. ( I think the person was watching his screen, as the BOT left, and reappeared a few min after he left). We spoke about a few things in game and he asked that I post my opinion on the issues we spoke about. There are many issues but i feel these two were very important.
First: Offline Gold Sales.. (why bots exsist in the first place)
Off line gold sellers do nothing to improve the game. Its a thriving business venture im sure, and people have a right to do so. But buy offline gold does have an affect on the game. It ruins the economy very quicky. Some people may ask, "how so?" Well think of it this way. Game economy works the same way as any countrys real world economy. Currency printed based on value is just that. Value. When a country prints more money then its value, everything become higher priced becuase the money has no value. its the same in PW.
In PW-MY offgamers and several other companies sell gold offline. For a few dollars you can actually buy 100mil in in-game gold. This gold is not from items dropped or earned in game. It is like someone printing extra currency. Things suddenly cost more becuase more gold is in the game. A good example of this is the cost of Heirophants, (FU's), during the early part of the game, they used to cost about 500-600k. With the game going live, and gold sellers making a booming business with all the new people, the price of the Heirophants jumpted to 800k in the first weeks. The new people in the game, and some of the older lower level people had to buy offline gold in order to pay for them, causing the price of Heirophants to jumpt to 1.8 mil gold withing 5-6 weeks. Mid range mats used to sell for 3-4k, jumped to 10+k, DQ items were just as bad. Only those with lots of gold could buy them, and without them, you cannot advance equally with other people in the game The amount of items for harvested/Dropped in game remain the same, but there is more gold available to purchase it, making them more expensive to buy.
Second: Value of Territories.
If anyone is familair with TW, they know that Warlords owned about 80% of the territories. I was a member or Reborn and we owned 9. I was talking to a member of warlord and we were discussing our weekly income from Territory ownership. Warlord members who qualified were makeing over 4mil per week. We in Reborn were making about 1mil at the time of our discussion.
This only made the guilds owning more territory stronger. They could buy the better equipment, molders, rides, and other stuff. This in turn allowed them to be stronger to the point that weaker guilds have no chance to obtain territory. Even the Structure of the TW programming allows them to keep more territory without really having to defend it all. Other guilds are only allowed to attack 3 of there territories. I saw that on some occasions, as many as 6-7 guilds would bid to attack Warlord, but only 3 would succeed. (and of course they lost becuase of the increased strength of Warlord people becuase they could purchase and upgrade to the best equipment)
Owning a lot of territory is fine.. but a guild should only be able to hold what they can defend by might, not by programming. If your guild is only stong enough to hold one territory, then one is all you should get. if you cant defend 10, you shouldnt own 10. My suggestion. Dont limit the amount of territory that can be attacked by other guilds. If you own 10 territories, and 10 other guilds bid to attack them and get on the schedule, Your guild should decide what they want to hold on to.
Final thoughts:
What it comes down to. If outside gold comes into the game, those that buy the gold will advance faster with better equipment, and ruin the economy for those trying to earn gold thru the game system. Territory owners should be rewared with game items, not gold and should only be able to own what they can hold.
First: Offline Gold Sales.. (why bots exsist in the first place)
Off line gold sellers do nothing to improve the game. Its a thriving business venture im sure, and people have a right to do so. But buy offline gold does have an affect on the game. It ruins the economy very quicky. Some people may ask, "how so?" Well think of it this way. Game economy works the same way as any countrys real world economy. Currency printed based on value is just that. Value. When a country prints more money then its value, everything become higher priced becuase the money has no value. its the same in PW.
In PW-MY offgamers and several other companies sell gold offline. For a few dollars you can actually buy 100mil in in-game gold. This gold is not from items dropped or earned in game. It is like someone printing extra currency. Things suddenly cost more becuase more gold is in the game. A good example of this is the cost of Heirophants, (FU's), during the early part of the game, they used to cost about 500-600k. With the game going live, and gold sellers making a booming business with all the new people, the price of the Heirophants jumpted to 800k in the first weeks. The new people in the game, and some of the older lower level people had to buy offline gold in order to pay for them, causing the price of Heirophants to jumpt to 1.8 mil gold withing 5-6 weeks. Mid range mats used to sell for 3-4k, jumped to 10+k, DQ items were just as bad. Only those with lots of gold could buy them, and without them, you cannot advance equally with other people in the game The amount of items for harvested/Dropped in game remain the same, but there is more gold available to purchase it, making them more expensive to buy.
Second: Value of Territories.
If anyone is familair with TW, they know that Warlords owned about 80% of the territories. I was a member or Reborn and we owned 9. I was talking to a member of warlord and we were discussing our weekly income from Territory ownership. Warlord members who qualified were makeing over 4mil per week. We in Reborn were making about 1mil at the time of our discussion.
This only made the guilds owning more territory stronger. They could buy the better equipment, molders, rides, and other stuff. This in turn allowed them to be stronger to the point that weaker guilds have no chance to obtain territory. Even the Structure of the TW programming allows them to keep more territory without really having to defend it all. Other guilds are only allowed to attack 3 of there territories. I saw that on some occasions, as many as 6-7 guilds would bid to attack Warlord, but only 3 would succeed. (and of course they lost becuase of the increased strength of Warlord people becuase they could purchase and upgrade to the best equipment)
Owning a lot of territory is fine.. but a guild should only be able to hold what they can defend by might, not by programming. If your guild is only stong enough to hold one territory, then one is all you should get. if you cant defend 10, you shouldnt own 10. My suggestion. Dont limit the amount of territory that can be attacked by other guilds. If you own 10 territories, and 10 other guilds bid to attack them and get on the schedule, Your guild should decide what they want to hold on to.
Final thoughts:
What it comes down to. If outside gold comes into the game, those that buy the gold will advance faster with better equipment, and ruin the economy for those trying to earn gold thru the game system. Territory owners should be rewared with game items, not gold and should only be able to own what they can hold.
Post edited by batjack on
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Comments
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all you have said is true. I agree with you0
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I am in agreement as well.0
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This is so true: I quit playing PW-MY and have high hope that PWI will not turn into the same game. Please DEV's Read and take action.0
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+1 this sound good.[SIGPIC]Tiger[/SIGPIC]0
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I completely agree with batjack.
1. Gold sellers not only increase in game inflation which ruins economy and game play, but is also taking money away from the Perfect World host (in this case Perfect World Entertainment) by allowing people to easily pay real money and buy gold from of third party, instead of buying zen from PWE and using the game's economy system and item shop.
2. I think 1,000,000 is a fair income for a Territory. Maybe, PWI should have certain in game bonus features available to owners of a territory besides the prestige fireworks (and I am ambivalent about having limiting certain pills/medicine to owners of a territory, but that sort of option could work.) That way, the amount of gold is limited for "fake bids" by alt factions, and most of the work to keep a territory must come from the guild/faction members fighting to keep their territory each week. More "real" battles will occur as a result, which will increase the quality of Territory War, and more people may need to expend hierograms (which means more zen purchase which equals more profit for PWE.)0 -
The concept may be different for various games but for PW-MY, offgamers doesn't seem to contribute to the inflation of the economy. The admins over there claim (up to you if you believe them) that they can't really generate in-game gold with any of their admin tools since they're not allowed to do so in their contract with PW-Beijing.
Companies like offgamers may have various sources for their in-game gold but I don't think it's printed money. A lot of it is just from trading with players. I see them buy in-game gold for let's say 50 cents per 10M from the people that are quitting and then sell it for 3 dollars per 10M to the lazy people who are buying. Leode or one of them mentioned that in their contract with offgamers, offgamers isn't allowed to sell in-game gold below the cost of the AH. So worse case, offgamers just goes to the AH and buys some in-game gold to supply it to people buying it from them.
I will note that a lot of the in-game gold sellers might be gaining extra money from bots but that is a separate issue. If we had a perfect GM who stopped every single bot, there would still be trading of gold and characters.
The main source of the inflation in the game is from the massive sell price of DQ items and the ~400M+ generated from the lands every week. If you've ever been grinding for a while, you'll notice that after selling all your loot, you earn more money than repairs and pots and possibly ammo cost, most of the time. You might make like ~50-100k/hour grinding. Hieros are from the cash shop so they don't affect in-game gold at all except maybe reduce the outflow since people don't use pots as much with hieros on. Skills and teleports are a sink but ultimately, with 50-100k/hour per person multiplied by 1000+ people grinding, of course, the money supply will increase over time.
Combine that with not enough people paying real money, the price of hieros goes up. It's more a game design problem that DQ items and those 1* equipment drops are priced too high. But if you reduce those too much, then people wouldn't make money and have as much fun. It's hard to balance. The daily stone quest and world quest help to sink some money out but obviously it's not enough.
As far as I know, there is no limit to the number of guilds attacking another guild. I think I've seen a guild defend at least 15+ territories before in a given week, although a lot of the bids were from fake guilds. The ease with which fake guilds can bid is more a problem than the time slots of the defenses, in my opinion. Even with 3 defense per time frame, a weaker guild can win because the defender has to split up forces across 3 battles and not all 200 people will be online and ready to fight.0 -
It all makes sense to me except one thing. I THOUGHT that anyone selling OR buying gold from a non-official site got banned.0
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For me the 10 millions / territory that is given each week is as worst as the gold farmer thing. It's money that pop out of nowhere and ends up inbalancing the economy of the game in the long run. Each week, that's more than 400 millions that is put in the game.
They should think of something else as a reward for owning territories.... Access to a special dungeon, or quest.Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."
(We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)0 -
That's what the rules say, yes. But it's difficult to enforce. As far as I know, offgamers is a "official" site, according to Cubinet. When pressed about the gold selling, the admins over there said they were okay with offgamers doing it because they're an "official" host of the Cubi-gold. But no other site is allowed to do it.
Based on how often characters get bought and sold, you can see how strictly the rules get enforced over there.
There's zero point to buying gold from offgamers really. If you wanted to do it. Just buy the Cubi/Zen and sell them in the AH. You get more in-game gold than you would from a 3rd party site like offgamers and it's legal.
I agree that the 10-30M/land or 400+M week is not healthy for a stable economy. Lowered bonuses for land or only bonus for the first X lands or some sort of diminishing returns might work better. Without access to full server logs, though, it's tough to say how big 400M is compared to the entire economy.0 -
Best way to reward teritories are taxes. I saw it in lineage 2 when i was playing it. guild set taxes on items in merchants and get income from taxes. Its fair and dont crush the economy and TW.0
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Take Lineage2 as an example of game destroyed by bots and gold sellers. Being an open world, bots and chinese gang masters were very very annoying. They controlled full zones, and if you tried to mess around then a high level hyper equiped would login and PK you, along with the control of raid bosses. In L2 they didn't get to control castles, but they gave support (in exchange of money) to certain clans. Until ncsoft used the ban bat but then it was too late.
What I say is, the full scope cannot be lost. You fight against bots and gold sellers (or at least those not sanctioned by your company, if that fits your business model) if you want your game to survive. You keep them under the mark. That's good. But more dangerous than that is allowing a small group of those to get though into high level positions of ingame power, to get castles and control zones or raid bosses.0 -
Agreed, Territory income makes for an unbridgeable gap between high end guilds and new ones, which is totally unfair
So just because you got there first others shouldnt have a chance? Whats the whole point, if the first guild that gets a territory completely monopolizes the map? And just like Warlord did in Oracle, so did ImmortaL in Delphi, and it WILL happen again if nothing is done0 -
I say the amount of income from a territory gets cut down by at least half. Make other people able to strike at the high end guilds and slaughter them just as much as the high end guilds can kill everyone else. Make it actually interesting instead of the ho-hum "I wonder if anyone will be able to take down one of (insert name of uber guild here) territories today?"[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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The consensus so far seems like the Territory Income is the more pressing issue at the moment.
For one, Territory Income is something that PWE would have to change in PWI before open beta starts.
Secondly, it is something that PWE is in direct control of, and can change relatively easily by editing their database.
Currently, in closed beta:
Territory income is set to:
Level 1: 30,000,000
Level 2: 20,000,000
Level 3: 10,000,000
Hopefully, that can be reduced by a factor of ten to:
Level 1: 3,000,000
Level 2: 2,000,000
Level 3: 1,000,000
or even:
Level 1: 8,000,000
Level 2: 4,000,000
Level 3: 2,000,000
or which ever combination that great reduces the initial money supply. Territory Income is like money from nowhere. It's like the government printing money beyond its GDP growth with nothing available in its Federal Reserve. In terms of economics, imagine Territory Income as the increase of M0. M2 is very low initially. GDP can be seen as growth as people level up and as new capital from people buying items and using zen. An unbalanced overly large M0 leads to inflation in all accepted schools of economics.
<-- Took one too many classes in economics. :rolleyes:0 -
you may have taken too many classes in economics, but you are completely right june. I say cut the income from TW down to 10%! make people work for the money instead of just getting fat ruling kingdoms. This is a Perfect World, and you cant have that without constant power struggles and wars.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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im prob wrong but i heard u get x2 exp for lvling in terratory areas
its prob just a myth but i think that wudnt be to bad or atleast 1.5x exp for lvling in ur tw area
as for the cash per week generated by tw i just say have no cash imcome at all to it,
thats what made pw-my also boring as hell the fact that there wasnt any TW cos the greedy guilds would use fake guilds to bid on the lands so they can keep there tw and get there cash,
if the reward isnt to big then im hopeing guilds wont try to use fake guilds to bid on them so we can still TW0 -
No, you don't get x2 XP for owning land.
The main benefits are
-The 10-30M/week in income
-Usually a free teleport to that land, with 1 hour cooldown
-Access to the governor in that land, which can be used to make city pots, heal yourself, and buy level 70+ pots
-Your guild's name on the map
-The fun of participating in the TW each week if you have a battle0 -
who thought that TW compensation was totally insane. Please dev's please please please do something about this. I want to be able to participate but felt (on oracle) that there was no reason for me to even try to establish a guild, or join one, since it was not named warlords. There has got to be a way to balance this so that ANY guild could have a fighting chance to own a territory. even if it is only for a week. Every response here is totally correct and I am so glad that I am not the only one who feels this way.
if we all post here then the dev's have got to listen at some point.
*just my two cents worth*0 -
from what i understand cubinet sells offgamers the cubi card. What offgamers does is sell the cubi in auction to make gold then in turn resell the gold they make from the auction. Thats how they sell ingame gold on the MY version Also im pretty sure guild leaders are selling gold to offgamers for money also. there is many variables as to how offgamers gets there gold to sell but id have to say that atleast 75-80% is from them selling cubi on the auction.0
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As far as I know, there is no limit to the number of guilds attacking another guild. I think I've seen a guild defend at least 15+ territories before in a given week, although a lot of the bids were from fake guilds. The ease with which fake guilds can bid is more a problem than the time slots of the defenses, in my opinion. Even with 3 defense per time frame, a weaker guild can win because the defender has to split up forces across 3 battles and not all 200 people will be online and ready to fight.
you will see lots of bids.. and yes, some from fake guilds, or sub guilds bidding. But when it comes down to the actual scheduling of TW. No guild has to fight more then three times in any give day. Even if you own 20 territories and all were bid against, only 3 have to be defended. Over a weekend, that might be 9 total.
You own 20.. you be ready to defend 200 -
very good post, very valid points.0
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What I would like to see (though it will never happen, even though it would probably more or less kill gold sales) is that if an account has been found buying gold, all the gold for every character on that zap gets removed. The only way to really and truely be rid of gold sellers is to hit them where it hurts - their pocketbooks. Players aren't going to buy gold if it comes with a large chance that the real money that they just forked over simply goes down the drain if it's caught.0
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For the devs... about the TW rewards i'll give you 2 opinions:
1st one seems more hard to make but its better:
For city Zones : Get 5% of the money that someone pays when it teleports to your city.
And for wild zones: get 5 coins for every mob that is killed at your map
or
Get 5 gold for every 30 minutes that someone stays in your map.
The 2nd one is just so easy: its lowering the money rewarded because its too much.
Check this, it may be the basic idea, but if you guys refine it , it can be great..0 -
When I discovered a BOT and made a ingame report, one of the Developers arrived. Of course he noticed the BOT. ( I think the person was watching his screen, as the BOT left, and reappeared a few min after he left). We spoke about a few things in game and he asked that I post my opinion on the issues we spoke about. There are many issues but i feel these two were very important.
First: Offline Gold Sales.. (why bots exsist in the first place)
Off line gold sellers do nothing to improve the game. Its a thriving business venture im sure, and people have a right to do so. But buy offline gold does have an affect on the game. It ruins the economy very quicky. Some people may ask, "how so?" Well think of it this way. Game economy works the same way as any countrys real world economy. Currency printed based on value is just that. Value. When a country prints more money then its value, everything become higher priced becuase the money has no value. its the same in PW.
In PW-MY offgamers and several other companies sell gold offline. For a few dollars you can actually buy 100mil in in-game gold. This gold is not from items dropped or earned in game. It is like someone printing extra currency. Things suddenly cost more becuase more gold is in the game. A good example of this is the cost of Heirophants, (FU's), during the early part of the game, they used to cost about 500-600k. With the game going live, and gold sellers making a booming business with all the new people, the price of the Heirophants jumpted to 800k in the first weeks. The new people in the game, and some of the older lower level people had to buy offline gold in order to pay for them, causing the price of Heirophants to jumpt to 1.8 mil gold withing 5-6 weeks. Mid range mats used to sell for 3-4k, jumped to 10+k, DQ items were just as bad. Only those with lots of gold could buy them, and without them, you cannot advance equally with other people in the game The amount of items for harvested/Dropped in game remain the same, but there is more gold available to purchase it, making them more expensive to buy.
Second: Value of Territories.
If anyone is familair with TW, they know that Warlords owned about 80% of the territories. I was a member or Reborn and we owned 9. I was talking to a member of warlord and we were discussing our weekly income from Territory ownership. Warlord members who qualified were makeing over 4mil per week. We in Reborn were making about 1mil at the time of our discussion.
This only made the guilds owning more territory stronger. They could buy the better equipment, molders, rides, and other stuff. This in turn allowed them to be stronger to the point that weaker guilds have no chance to obtain territory. Even the Structure of the TW programming allows them to keep more territory without really having to defend it all. Other guilds are only allowed to attack 3 of there territories. I saw that on some occasions, as many as 6-7 guilds would bid to attack Warlord, but only 3 would succeed. (and of course they lost becuase of the increased strength of Warlord people becuase they could purchase and upgrade to the best equipment)
Owning a lot of territory is fine.. but a guild should only be able to hold what they can defend by might, not by programming. If your guild is only stong enough to hold one territory, then one is all you should get. if you cant defend 10, you shouldnt own 10. My suggestion. Dont limit the amount of territory that can be attacked by other guilds. If you own 10 territories, and 10 other guilds bid to attack them and get on the schedule, Your guild should decide what they want to hold on to.
Final thoughts:
What it comes down to. If outside gold comes into the game, those that buy the gold will advance faster with better equipment, and ruin the economy for those trying to earn gold thru the game system. Territory owners should be rewared with game items, not gold and should only be able to own what they can hold.
I for one isn't that fond of bots, but ur points are a little... useless.
1. Yes bots make money in game invaluable, everything goes up when u buy, but u can also SELL things at a way higher price. (you can not look at only 1 side of the story). As we all know, pots are very expensive in game, and any new player starting out will struggle to get enough money for their pots, skills, etc. One thing that's is actually GOOD about bots is that it makes u have an easier time in PW because everything is cheap relative to what u can earn by selling the stuff u get. So the point u raised actually works in the opposite way. Imagine say u farm materials, but instead of selling it at a low price of 1000, now u can sell it at 20,000. Doesn't that make life ALOT easier for u? unless u plan to buy everything and not work for anything of course.
2. A guild that's not strong enough to defend 10 guild shouldn't have 10 territories? THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE GAME IS BUILT!! say u own 10 territories, u MUST be prepared to defend 10 territories at once, because new guilds can call on ur land, and if they organise their forces with 9 other guilds, then ALL of ur 10 territories can be called upon to fight at once! of course there may happen in different hours, but that's all chance!! I dunno why u even posted this.. i guess u don't really know how the factions work. People need alliances so they can protect their own territories, unless they are strong enough to hold it on their own. Territorial wars in PW my are a joke, because ppl just join the largest guild. There were no competition. How this system will work is dependent on the community who play this game, it's not a fault of the system. If this is a community who is competitive, with leaders who wants to make territories of their own, then there will be a few big guilds with land, not just one.
btw, i also saw in the previous posts that someone said that ur exp does not increase in the land u own. YOU DO GET A EXP BONUS IN LAND U OWN!!! by how much I can not remember.0 -
2. A guild that's not strong enough to defend 10 guild shouldn't have 10 territories? THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE GAME IS BUILT!! say u own 10 territories, u MUST be prepared to defend 10 territories at once, because new guilds can call on ur land, and if they organise their forces with 9 other guilds, then ALL of ur 10 territories can be called upon to fight at once! of course there may happen in different hours, but that's all chance.
No... One guild cannot have more than 3 wars going on in one particular TW time frame.
There are seven TW time frames.
So the maximum TW one guild can have to face is 21 in a week.Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."
(We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)0 -
I was not particularly a fan of Warlords but...Hear me out for one minute.
The game TW system was based around the Three Kingdoms period of China. At that time, there were basically, well, 3 kingdoms. They all owned territories in a feudal state and waged war against one another. In a sense, if you apply it, WL is the unifier. You do know that China eventually was unified into one country, right?
Ah yes. Fantasy vs. Reality. However, I would have to say that given the way the game in MY went, I would say that people were jealous of WL, though no one would openly admit it. Most people who weren't in WL hated WL. Also, they were attacked every weekend and successfully defended. I don't know but...Fair's fair I have to say...
I guess my point is...I highly doubt that a system that's been used for over 6 different times over is going to change and...well, that's life. Real life is never always fair either0 -
Bravo!
Well written, Agree 100%0 -
I thought I remembered seeing Territory Income being only 1,000,000 on certain servers. One place I thought I remember seeing it was a PW PH site. But now I remember on the original Chinese Perfect World, Territory Income for a level 3 territory was only 1,000,000 not 10,000,000.
This is an image link to website on the original Chinese version:
http://world2.wanmei.com/hd/war/images/image015.jpg
Just thought to bring it up because it had bothered me to forget. T_T0 -
I agree with you the TW system is messed up bad on MY. Warlords dont have all that territory because theyre just that strong they have it because they are strong enough to defend 3 at a time. If the limit is 3 can be attacked at a time than you should only get to hold 3. they should make it to where all of your territories can be attacked at once not limiting it to 3 at all. If your guild is stronger you will hold more territories. On my the first guild to take all the territories pretty much keeps them for the duration of the game or until the guild disbands.
Main reason i came to this version is to get a shot at territories. I worked my **** off to level and so did my guild on MY just to discover that there is no way in hell we will ever own territory no matter what.
I will openly admit that i was jealous of WL lol. Over all the guild was filled with mainly decent players they didnt randomly pk like USA, BloodRed, Vengeance and quite a few others. I like pk/pvp but it gets annoying for people just starting out in a game to get pk'd everytime they walk out of town as most of those guilds mainly pk on lowbie maps atleast when WL did pk they werent afraid to attack people theyre own level.0 -
The problem on PW-MY was that warlord was able to hold the territories by threat of global KOS. Without it, lots of smaller guilds wold bid on warlord land and warlords simply wouldnt have the time to defend them all. It would also cost them a lot of money to outbid all their opposition.
Dont believe me? Take a look at the Phillipine PVE territory map, and compare it to oracle.
(sorry I couldnt find a link)
I agree with the rest of what you said.0
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