A Question of Finance

puppetsoul
puppetsoul Posts: 0 Arc User
edited August 2008 in General Discussion
Before I start, yes, this is indirectly bringing into consideration the "PvE vs PvP" debate, although it's not in regards to whether or not to make one, you've obviously decided that already...

My concern is the cash shop (which the game revolves around, and there is no question of that), as it pertains to the differing mode of play.

PW-MY stated that they could not bring a profit from a PvE server, and I'll get into why in a moment, but it's obvious that someone here thinks they can. I've been stewing as to how that would be possible, and I'll explain my hypothesis in the latter portion.

First the explanation as to why PW-MY couldn't turn a profit on a PvE server: PW's cash shop is heavily focused around "preventative maintenance". Heiros and Dolls are their primary sales, and these are used almost exclusively to delay and belay (respectively) the punishments associated with having unrestricted PvP.
As a PvE server is heavily reduced in "PvP" (which should more properly be labeled "ganking, counter-ganking and GetUrMain revenge ganking"), these items would have a heavily reduced demand (as there'd be no purpose to turning off protection for the overwhelming majority of players, which is the whole reason to roll on a "PvE" server as opposed to the "PvP" one).

Yet, you intend to prove this wrong...

And I was wondering, how might you accomplish that? And I've come up with a few ways that might happen.

First, that you're intending to change the death penalty for PvE, so that it brings the ability to drop equipped items into play, thereby forcing the PvP preventative measures onto the PvE crowd. The problem with that is, except in PUGs, so long as the entire party doesn't wipe, that's not much of a penalty, and wouldn't force spending so much as it would force people into consistent parties.

Second, and this is the one I'm fearing, is that they'll modify the pricing to reflect the heavily reduced usage that these items will receive on the (overwhelmingly more popular) PvE server.
Now, generally the US versions of games receive drastically increased pricing to reflect the fact that American companies are all based in Silicon Valley: the least economically viable place, although easiest to find staff, to run an online business. However, I'm not talking about shifting a Doll's price from about a dime to a quarter (which is almost palletable), I'm harbingering something closer to a dollar.
Heiros would likely see a similar dip, although far less drastic due to them still being useful as far as PvE AOE grind parties go, so they wouldn't drop to the zero usage that Dolls would see.

Third, and similarly underhanded, is a change in the way that one-time purchases (Extensions stones, Costumes, Mounts, etc.) work: likely to a "rental" system.

I'd really like to know which aspect of the game you're changing to project the PvE server in the black.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by puppetsoul on
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Comments

  • arcane
    arcane Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Rohan's system was highly annoying.
    Buffs were about 2$ and lasted about 4$ >.>
    Costumes were 3$ and lasted a week.

    If Heiros, which deflate way faster than 1 per month, were to raise to 1$, we would be witnessing another spending money = win game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Doin' it my way.
  • puppetsoul
    puppetsoul Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    arcane wrote: »
    If Heiros, which deflate way faster than 1 per month, were to raise to 1$, we would be witnessing another spending money = win game.

    All Free2Play games are Pay2Win, that's not the issue.

    If the price point is palletable, then it's Pay2Compete, which is acceptable.

    If the price point exceeds a subscription game by too much, then it quickly degenerates into slamming your wallet on the table and screaming Yahtzee.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • arcane
    arcane Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Aye, so pay2win wasn't the terminology I should have used.
    But at least Hieros are cheap enough at the moment that even a friend can help provide them for nonpaying members.
    However, if prices increased, especially to 400% of normal price, Pay2Win just seems like a better phrase to use.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Doin' it my way.
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    It may also depends upon how much money Cubinet want to make in a given period of time compared to how much money PW Interenational want to makes in the same period.

    But it's true that running a server in the US cost more than in Malaysia.

    Other wise, it would be interresting to see how other servers with the same PvP-optional configuration can do it.

    I once compared the cost of buying 100 cash shop unit for the Malaysian and Japanese servers (Japanese server have the optional-PvP setting activated)

    100 unit for Malaysia = +/- 31$us
    100 unit for Japan = +/- 94$us

    Then, the prices of the items in the cash shop. From what I remember, most fashions, aviations and such cost much less on the japanese server than on the Malaysian english. Exemple : heaven tone is sold 16 units on the japanese server and 44 on the malaysian. But in the end the cost is relatively the same if you convert in into real money. Some end up cheaper, the 2-headed dragon cost 24 cubi on the japanese and 99 on the malaysian.

    Pet rides ends up costlier on the japanese.

    No idea for consumable, but even if they sell for the same price in the cash shop, they would end up costlier in Japan than in Malaysia.

    But then, Japan don't have to bother with two different types of servers. Territorials wars there are much more active than on the Malaysian servers. 11 or 12 guilds owns territories, so there must be a lot more wars going on each weeks, so they certainly sells much more hiero than they do on the malaysian servers

    How will they manage to do it here will be interresting to see. They cannot afford to be much more costlier than the malaysian and european servers, otherwise people will not come play here.... Selling non consumable items at a lower price may work if they have a continuous supply of new players coming in regularly. You'll sell more cool looking aviations at 30 cubis than if you try to sell them at 100.

    Anyway, Hieros will be used at the same rate on both servers.
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • seawolf
    seawolf Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Usage of consumables is just speculation on our part. PWE has enough statistical data on hand from all the other PvP-optional servers (JP/PH for example) and PvP servers (MY) that they probably know how much of everything people use on both type of servers. Since both types of servers seem to be going strong, they'll probably price things similarly because of international competition.

    In addition, people may be more likely to open AoE parties on the PvP-optional servers because they're less likely to get interrupted since most people are grinding away somewhere instead of PvPing. The PvP servers may generate more revenue per player but the long-term viability of the PvP optional servers in other regions means that both servers make pretty decent money in general.

    In later versions, there is "rentable" fashion but the full price is the same as it now. The 6 month or 1 month rentables are discounted heavily compared to the forever versions.

    I do see them adjusting prices slightly to make it priced correctly in the USA (probably slightly more expensive) but that's going to be global prices across both servers. They won't price hieros too high because they want people to be AoEing all day.
  • lipe124
    lipe124 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Omg too much text.. I just can't read so much but from what i've skimmed

    Everyone I knew on my-en and pw-eu spent like a gazzilion dollars on fashion and materials for crafting and 10$ on hieros and dolls. So its about the group you travel with, if youre into pk'ing and all your friends are then you'd assume that everyone spends money on dragon pearls/hiero/doll.
    If you with the normal crowd that just play to chill out you'll see they spend loads and loads more money on silly things like crafting/fashion/mounts.

    Everyone is going to spend money on MP hieros for zhen. way more than you'd ever spend on PK'ing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Go watch it alone ;)
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Another reason why a PvP server would be more profitable is the sale of Dragon Pearls. Very necessary for being a top-notch PvPer, but not so much in the other server.


    ... I don't think the prices will be too different. If we follow the same pricing as the Japanese server(which is equal to the Malay server), I'll be fine. Zen is worth more, but you spend less of it to get what you want.
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    ark wrote: »
    Another reason why a PvP server would be more profitable is the sale of Dragon Pearls. Very necessary for being a top-notch PvPer, but not so much in the other server.

    Don't worry, they'll sell as much in both server. I was in a non-pvp guild before, and I've seen some with highly augmented items too.

    It's not the server you play that matter, it's the money you have to spend on the game.
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Huh. Well, I guess that's good then. Dragon Pearls are the #1/#2 most bought items.
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Oh, one last thing that crossed my mind.

    Don't forget that PWI is run by a susbsidiary of the company making/owning the game.

    Beijing PW Co take a share on every cash shop item sold.

    They pretty much know what kind of money each type of server can bring in.

    I doubt they would run a type of server that would not be profitable only to please it's customers.
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • sphinx
    sphinx Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    btw what do Dragon Pearls do exaclty?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    100% success rate if refining your armour. NeoNe0 has spent 5k USD on these pearls because he's a lunatic.
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    ark wrote: »
    NeoNe0 has spent 5k USD on these pearls because he's a lunatic.

    Is it true he also spent a few $$$ to max his reputation to 200k?
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    I don't really know. He spent many many millions on hiring Warriors to do fb89 to farm signets for him... but, it could've been his 200m/week guild fund that did that. ReLLiK, though, spent 4k USD on 200k rep, and then 5K USD, like NeoNe0, on refined gears. ReLLiK, I know, is an investor in wine and such - it must be nice to be able to afford that stuff.
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • xarfox
    xarfox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    The major difference between a PvE and PvP server is this:

    On a PvE server, you can toggle a switch that allows other players to attack you.
    On a PvP server, no such switch exists, allowing free PK.

    Regardless of this one difference, both servers have Territory Wars.

    In response to your question Puppet, if I was a PvE kind of guy, I probably wouldn't want to spend money on a game that forces me to PvP. Vice versa if I was a PvP kind of guy, which I am personally.

    Btw it's nice to see you again Puppet. ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • glider
    glider Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    What I REALLY REALLY need is the $$$ cost for Zen, and Item Mall costs in PWI. I have a budget, but I need to know what costs what so I can make plans.
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Yeah. And while you get an answer for that, I'd like to know if the 3x crit rate multiplier rumour for magic classes is true. I'd also like the admin's opinion on Wizard class :D

    I sure am needy. :cool:
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • lipe124
    lipe124 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    lol what 3x crit ?! thats just stupid cos crits already ignore the pvp 25%(to some extent in my experience) reduction and pretty much 1hit KO already anyways. Giving it a 3x effect would be stupid to say the least.

    The only thing you can do is get items that increase critincal rate by crafting/molders.

    Oh and PVE players would still buy pearls if they can afford them because it helps a LOT in HH/TW if you have some decent gear. Not to mention pve would probably have a few ppl doing pvp when they are higher lvl, like 80+
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Go watch it alone ;)
  • ark
    ark Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    I've run tests to see about the 3x multiplier, and heard from the lead developer of the MYen vesion of PW that it exists. So far, there is no evidence against it. The tests showed 141/500 plume quills critted with an EP that had 9% crit rate. That's about 28% of the time, which is about 3x more than it should be.
    As a Guild,

    Live as One, fight as One, win as One.
    Strength in Unity,
    Order through Chaos,
    Victory united.
  • puppetsoul
    puppetsoul Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    xarfox wrote: »
    The major difference between a PvE and PvP server is this:

    On a PvE server, you can toggle a switch that allows other players to attack you.
    On a PvP server, no such switch exists, allowing free PK.

    Regardless of this one difference, both servers have Territory Wars.

    In response to your question Puppet, if I was a PvE kind of guy, I probably wouldn't want to spend money on a game that forces me to PvP. Vice versa if I was a PvP kind of guy, which I am personally.

    I'm aware, and I recognize that a PvE server is probably more viable in the way of long term investment type purchases (fashions, pearls, mounts, expansion stones, etc.), but have relatively little use for the "Optional" items which are essentially a character maintenance fee on a forced PvP server because of the unpredictability of being greifed.

    You don't drop items in TW, so there's no purpose for Dolls; TW will likely be dominated by alt guild counterbidding, so Heiro use will be limited to AOE parties.

    Sure, it's only a few bucks a month per active player (in PW-MY, which will likely become 10 to 15 in PWI), but that stacks up and considering it's not really an optional fee...

    The loss of the consistancy of that maintenance fee hurts the financial outlook in my mind, and I'm curious as to where they're planning to pick that up... I guess we'll see in a few months. =3
    xarfox wrote: »
    Btw it's nice to see you again Puppet. ;)
    Aye, you also. When I saw your name I told Mystic he'd finally get some competition. And then we were all sad pandas because it meant that the staff wouldn't be giving us special favors in exchange for indirectly creating a viral marketing campaign.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xarfox
    xarfox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    puppetsoul wrote: »
    The loss of the consistancy of that maintenance fee hurts the financial outlook in my mind, and I'm curious as to where they're planning to pick that up... I guess we'll see in a few months. =3

    Let us worry about the financial outlook. :)

    But thank you for your well written posts Puppet. It's refreshing to see some good folks from SCO wander this way.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lipe124
    lipe124 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    ark wrote: »
    I've run tests to see about the 3x multiplier, and heard from the lead developer of the MYen vesion of PW that it exists. So far, there is no evidence against it. The tests showed 141/500 plume quills critted with an EP that had 9% crit rate. That's about 28% of the time, which is about 3x more than it should be.

    My bad, I thought you meant 3X crit dmg not crit rate.

    I still thinking having choice means Pw-int covers more ground and opens the potential for more income from both sides of the fence. No matter how you look at it, the 4k beta keys have been taken ages ago.. even if only 1/2 of those play the game its 2000 ppl.. puts 500 on the PVE and 1500 on PVP you'd still have a beefy income if just 10% of those ppl regularly buy stuff.

    The reality will probably be that as the game shows its true colours and players can confirm the staff are doing their jobs and the community grows into a fun bunch(at least on pve =P) a lot more ppl will join.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Higurashi no Naku Koro ni - Go watch it alone ;)
  • massamune
    massamune Posts: 395 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    xarfox wrote: »
    Let us worry about the financial outlook. :)

    But thank you for your well written posts Puppet. It's refreshing to see some good folks from SCO wander this way.

    I wondered if you were the same guy from the AR forums.
  • puppetsoul
    puppetsoul Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    xarfox wrote: »
    Let us worry about the financial outlook. :)

    But thank you for your well written posts Puppet. It's refreshing to see some good folks from SCO wander this way.

    I've played many games where two game modes are being offered, and eventually one of the game modes "fails to remain profitable" and the servers of that type get merged into the other type.

    Let me give you a real life example: the Korean version of Rappelz merged all of their "PvP" servers into "Normal" servers, because the PvP servers would only remain profitable for the first three months they were open. Because of that shift in the developer's primary market, they stopped developing content with consideration for PvP servers (they redesigned the PvP system, among other things), and as I had a few hundred dollars invested into the US PvP server, I lost a few hundred bucks in the process of rerolling onto a normal server because the US version refused to merge the PvP server.

    Now, PWB does both, and both are profitable in different areas, but as you've undoubtedly seen for each region (and is alluded to in an earlier post), each region's cash shop is proportionally in favor of a different side of the fence (undoubtedly whichever model has higher earnings); to use the earlier post: PW-MY is more PvP friendly, with cheaper dolls/heiros, while PW-JP is more PvE friendly, with cheaper mounts and fashion. The items they expect to sell more frequently are cheaper, while those with less demand are more expensive (in comparison to other items from the same region's shop).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • xarfox
    xarfox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    It is our job to worry about profitability and server type viability. We have done our due diligance.

    I realize that you were burned with your experience with Rappelz. However that was a different game, and more importantly, a different company.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    Then, would it be possible to have two different pricing in the cash shop for the two type of server?

    Or would that make trouble, with players from both server complaining this and that is cheaper on the other server, not recognizing that what they use the most is cheaper for themselves?
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • xarfox
    xarfox Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    karmelia wrote: »
    Then, would it be possible to have two different pricing in the cash shop for the two type of server?

    Or would that make trouble, with players from both server complaining this and that is cheaper on the other server, not recognizing that what they use the most is cheaper for themselves?

    Regardless of which server type you play on, PvP or PvE, there will not be a pricing difference with regard to the cash shop.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rufus
    rufus Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    yay. i would hate for the pricing to be different based on server..
  • koz
    koz Posts: 465 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    I don't think people understand that although we call this a PVE server, it's not truly PVE. It's more of a gank free server.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • puppetsoul
    puppetsoul Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2008
    koz wrote: »
    I don't think people understand that although we call this a PVE server, it's not truly PVE. It's more of a gank free server.

    Irrelevant.

    The question isn't about whether or not you CAN pvp on it, the question is whether or not the fact that the mindset is geared towards "no pk" and making it "gank free", thereby eliminating the necessity of the preventative measures (dolls/heiros), coupled with the popularity of a "no pk" server, will have an influence on cash shop pricing of those items.

    I think yes, but I don't know.

    Additionally, will the popularity of a PvE server, coupled with the possible changing of pricing, make the PvE server a more viable place to PvP? (as is the case in MANY, MANY games that come stateside, as the "PvP" servers are essentially ghost towns due to the fact that the only thing differentiating them from the PvE servers is that they have the unpredictability of being ganked, which comes with a hefty penalty in most of these Asian developed games)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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