Expansion

Well said, bankerscott!
An MMO that is one thing for one group of people is not realizing its potential.

jadasia wrote: »

eeepsilon wrote: »

jadasia wrote: »

hurrdurrurr wrote: »

jadasia wrote: »

hurrdurrurr wrote: »

jadasia wrote: »

gravewulf wrote: »

New engraving, Glyph refining, and more content geared for the few percent who spend a lot of money. Congratulations! For the casual, or average player, (which is most of us), more imbalance! YAY!

You must be new to PWI.

God forbid a for profit company caters to people who pay real money to play it.

And how has strictly catering to whales worked for playerbase? PWE needs ridiculous amounts of money per whale to meet their goals nowdays instead of taking less from larger pool of ppl.

PS. Its pretty sad when there are private servers which are more active than retail.

People who pay money to play keep PWI employees employed, Developers developing, servers up, etc. They deserve to be better than those who contribute nothing. Welcome to capitalism. Without them you have no game to play.

If you think you can run a better MMO company then by all means go for it.

PS..the old saying "You get what you pay for" applies here just as well as anywhere else. You want more then pay for it.

Also, it's none of your business how much other people choose to spend and buy or how they choose to play the game

I dont even. Its like you read nothing of what I said.

F2P players are extremely important to the longevity of this game - They provide items/services to paying players. They become faction mates, friends, just general playerbase to interact with. You cut them out and the game looks and feels lot emptier. They might not pay but they provide clear positive to PWE by just playing and keeping paying players entertained.

Not that there are many truly f2p players left in this game as their means to play the game has drastically been cut. And you know what, even some of the bigger spenders are moving towards private servers because they are flat out bored on PWI. PWI is losing by kicking f2p players on the head too many times.

But sure, go on bout capitalism like you have no brain.

I read what you said but try reading what I said. PWI/PWE is a for profit company. It seems they are purposely thinning out non-paying clients to reduce their overhead costs including but not limited to server bandwidth and employee time dealing with tickets from non paying players.

The company wants to cater to and allocate their resources to paying customers. Which for profit company doesn't? It's a business.

As stated earlier think of F2P people playing a limited trial version of the game. They get what they pay for.

While pretty much all of what you said about this game is in some way true, and indeed pwi caters to heavy cashers more than anyone else. And yes, it would be naive to expect that a company that is for profit would put f2p people on same ground as real costumers that are dumping thousands on this game, even if we take all that in consideration, I think there is a huge flaw on your whole argument.
The problem whit what you are saying is that the whole argument of taking f2p players as a part of a trial version, demo or whatever you want to call it can not be applied to a f2p and p2w game as this one. Trial version are aplied to either subscription based or b2p games.

Even if you disregard almost everything of what @hurrdurrurr and @prancing said to you, there is still something that you need to ask yourself about f2p/p2w and hardcore cashers (whales) and the question is:
Why they dump huge amounts of money on a game?

Now don't get the wrong Idea, I am not judging them or making fun of them, in fact I agree with you that it is their money, hence, no one can judge them how they spend it. Also it is true that it is thanks to them that all f2p/p2w games keep running.
However the question still remains, and as I said before, not to judge or troll them, but mainly because you seem to be mising a big aspect about many p2w players and the type of person this kind of game is targeting.


To put it simple, if you remove f2p people almost completly from the game, specially from the pvp aspect, you only have a bunch of whales that would have to kill each other to have fun, if you do that, the game is not p2w anymore, it is nothing more than a super expensive pay to pvp game. People who usually put insane amounts of money on the pvp side of a f2p game, do it to have an advantage over others, not to strugle against people same geared or even better geared than them.
Of course that what both @hurrdurrurr and @prancing replied before also affect the longevity of the game, however it will not kill it immediately, PWI in fact is the living proof of a game that got its internal economy completly destroyed by both the developer and Publisher and somehow manages to survive. However if you remove the capacity of the whales to feel powerful and important, you are killing their purpose for dumping the ton of money they put in the game.

I know that what I am saying may sound really offensive for some people here, but trust me when i say that it is not my intention to flame them or insult them in any way. However, no matter what people try to argue against this, it can not be denied, sure there are exceptions of heavy cashers that don't care about pw2 advantage, some are just fashion addicts or pack/key addicts, but still most of the ones that spend a ton are the hardcore pvp kind, and not the type of players that want to just have fun. And as I say before if you completly remove their gear advantage, you are removing their reason to play. And leaving the game only with rich people with pretty much the same gear is exactly that, that is not different than puting them in a pv server...

Nobody is advocating the removal F2P players completely from the game. In fact F2P players have a path to end game gear too. Just takes more time and work to do it. A LOT more as it should be.

My point is that F2P players are not entitled to the same benefits as those who pay to play. If they were then there would no incentive to pay anything and the lights would go out very quickly for PWI.

In contrast to the complaint made original post there should never be any balance between those who pay money to play the game and those who don't. If you people are incapable of grasping that simple concept then that is your issue, not mine.

I literally laugh at those who think they are entitled to have the same stuff other people paid hard earned money for... for free.

And I laugh even harder when those same self entitled people complain about putting up the same effort to get to the same level of gear and etc. someone else worked hard to achieve.

That "I demand everything you have but I shouldn't have to pay for it or work as hard as you did for it because it causes imbalance in the game" mentality deserves to be ridiculed into oblivion.

You cant be serious with what you are spewing, can you?

I personally made alt on another server bout 2 years ago iirc. To test how it feels like to gear up a new character with no resources from other toons/cashing. It felt absolutely terrible. This was during pillbaby code so leveling was easy and you got free TT99 gear with the code. Even so just looking at how much I would have to work on a side project just to get the toon into N3, let alone further than that, felt too much. And I had all the knowledge of the game, its mechanics and so on gathered over the years of playing.

There is technically path to endgame for non paying users but in reality there isnt one. The amount of work/time you`d have to put on a dying game is ludicrous. And they keep killing means to catch up/gear up with each new update.

And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers - Why do you think the least P2W years of PWI were also by far most popular years of it? After nirvana died, the farmers lost their main source of income and as a result the symbiosis somebody mentioned died. Sure, there were pack sales and other stuff which also attributed to the fall the game had but thats, imo, the point where the game started kicking F2P players in the head.

Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title. Your average people do not want massive gear gap between paying and non paying customers and they for sure arent willing to spend the amounts PWE asks for gear. Sure, there is bound to be gear gap if you offer gear in cash shop and thats fine but the way this game handled it all just killed the playerbase.

All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead. I remember being in guild on 08, which was maybe 5th 6th in power on server, they were fielding full or close enough full 80. Nowdays there are servers where top guilds cant pull that. Sure, years would of eaten some of the playerbase but with good management PWE would of made a lot more money from large pool of players over couple of whales. And as I have said earlier, there are whales moving to private servers cause they are bored on PWI - This is largely result of too small playerbase to PvP(PvP events included) with, which is direct result of monetization of this game.

I didn't read most of this but as a free to play player here to have fun with my friends most games that are free to play keep things farm-able in some way. When you eliminate anything needing farmed for a cash shopper to buy from free to play players you eventually kill a game. I have put money in this game myself not as much as others more than some. I just want to have fun with friends but nothing to farm in game can't even mob farm the coin drops sucks DQ has no value hp mp drops have no value to npc. Auto culti was a cool idea but it screwed people in the long run. you guys keep talking like free to play players are worthless Thanks for that. I understand its a for profit business, but you really need to see the whole picture great you are rich. If you want to be that fricken OP and isolate people from competing enjoy yourselves when the server shuts down and your 10s of thousands of dollars aren't refunded. It is what happens when player bases drop to low or there are only cash shoppers left that sit in SZ because other cash shoppers are out of sz. Say what you want call me stupid call me useless I really don't care about your opinion otherwise I would have left this game long ago because of what people think of me.

gravewulf wrote: »

No, you *don't* get what you pay for, and anyone that says they do, must have a lot of liquidable income to spend here. The fact is, that you get very little in return, for the exorbitant prices they charge for the intellectual property that you basically lease.

I've played for about ten years, I don't spend a lot, maybe $40 - $100 a month or so, but over time, that has added up, (not to mention about once a year, I purchase a large amount for major upgrades).

I don't care who you are, or how you spin/justify that, but you're blind, if you think what they charge, and how they charge for stuff, is fair and reasonable. It isn't, period.

But people pay it. Why? Because things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If you have a problem with the price of things then you don't purchase those things. Problem solved...for you.

bankerscott wrote: »

Weighing in:

"Book about the old days when squads and classes joined to kill things...etc, etc.."

People still make rainbow squads to kill things in instances every day. That is not the definition of balance the OP is referring to and you know it.

But if people really want balance in the game then they will squad and compete with others who are the same level of gear and character development. That is..play with other F2P people.

Most won't because they want the OP maxed out gear cash shoppers to just nuke the instances for them.

eeepsilon wrote: »

Not really sure why you are so obsessed with entitlement, this is not twitter or some sjw forum… Yeah I get your point: cashers are the ones dumping money and should be above the f2p people.

{Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}

But this argument here is way too cringy and wrong in my opinion:





Now if this was 2015 or before that I would completly agree with you and even applaud you for saying this, but on current year saying that is not even funy as a joke. The developer of this game removed almost everything that a f2p player would use as way to farm/merch/whatever they do in game to gear up, they also removed any need for a casher to get anything from f2p people, they don't even need their coins anymore. Heck, they put barriers on basic gear, daily quests, even last culti is targeting spark kill squads, even tho in that case it is posible for a nab to get it so you can ignore that if you want.

{Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}

You claim that people demand everything that others got with effort for free, but do they?

{Yes, I've seen the threads and posts in the forums}

I mean correct me if I am wrong but are you defending the way in which this developer handle power creep?

{You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.

I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.

Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}

Yes maybe the OP is a bit unreasonable and sounds salty, but I don't see him/her asking for free end game stuff.

{Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}

I don't think that people who is f2p should be on same ground as p2w whales, but be realistic, not because 6 years ago it was hard to get something like nirvana, it should mean that now have to be even harder, in fact the whole concept of having end game gear to farm outdated garbage is plain idiotic.

{G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}

Just ask yourself this: Do you think that a guy that is r9s3+12, g17s5 weapon, NP and lvl 3 atck or def shards. would care if some random no name dude can get his g16 helmet/cape in reasonable amount of time time?

Do you think that same super OP whale would care if the guy can farm some dungeon and get some coin to progress a bit on the game?

Would that casher be ofended when the g16 dude manages to get r9 bad refined…? The whale would probably be full g17 or r10 or whatever the name of that new gear that is coming by that time..

I would completly understand and agree with you if people here was asking for insta free r9 or free NP or some crazy stuff.

{What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.

Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}

I am sorry but I can not white knight this game, it have nothing to do with free stuff, not even balance, the way in which this game has changed is even self destructive for itself. In one of your first post on this thread you mention capitalism, but a Smart capitalist company would never try to depend in a super low number of customers, the moment that they lose those few customers they have to shot down.

{A smart company caters to paying customers.}

Also not really related to what you mentioned but the in game economy of pwi is not really capitalist at all, it is more like some sort of socialist dictatorship.

BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.

hurrdurrurr wrote: »

Lots and lots of QQ

For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

"And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

"Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

"All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

jadasia wrote: »

For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

"And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

"Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

"All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

I dont even know why I bother but anyways.

What is the pill getting you? It nets you 100-100-100 character. In grand scheme of things its literally nothing. Or how many 100-100-100 toons you see wrecking ppl? Oh right, none. But you get TT99 gear too(?), which again in grand scheme of things nets you obsolete gear you need to upgrade to higher stages of obsolete gear. Nobody would bat an eyelash if it was N2 gear, which you could then upgrade to N3 w/o having to jump hoops in order to get manufacturing skills up to get to basic level of gear where ppl still wont take you to any instances but least it would be the endgame of obsolete gear path.

Maybe you should have some basic reading comprehension lessons as you clearly dont understand a single point. I nowhere claimed free players should have "same benefits", all I have argued is they should have means to match what paying customers have if they work for it. Now you can argue they can, its an ludicrous statement but you have made it. In reality thats not remotely close to the truth or why dont you prove it by getting semi endgame character on a server you dont play w/o charging on said server before game closes?

Lets say somebody plays 2 toons and nets roughly 10m/day income/toon. Thats bout what FSP and DUP should land if I`m not mistaken. 600m a month, wow, so easy, right? Now lets see what that 600m gets you. In grand scheme of things it nets you pretty much nothing. You need roughly 10 months of that to get basic R9 gear, which is first step towards endgame gear and just because you have it wont stop literally everybody 1shotting you. Not to mention nobody is actually taking **** geared toons into DUP so your income would actually be drastically lower than used on math here.

Yes, LoLs business model is working and they do not sell anything, which would give real advantage over non paying customers in game. But I guess this is fake news cause it doesnt fit your view of how paying customers have to have an advantage in order for the game to succeed?

Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.

hurrdurrurr wrote: »

jadasia wrote: »

For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

"And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

"Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

"All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

I dont even know why I bother but anyways.

What is the pill getting you? It nets you 100-100-100 character. In grand scheme of things its literally nothing. Or how many 100-100-100 toons you see wrecking ppl? Oh right, none. But you get TT99 gear too(?), which again in grand scheme of things nets you obsolete gear you need to upgrade to higher stages of obsolete gear. Nobody would bat an eyelash if it was N2 gear, which you could then upgrade to N3 w/o having to jump hoops in order to get manufacturing skills up to get to basic level of gear where ppl still wont take you to any instances but least it would be the endgame of obsolete gear path.

Maybe you should have some basic reading comprehension lessons as you clearly dont understand a single point. I nowhere claimed free players should have "same benefits", all I have argued is they should have means to match what paying customers have if they work for it. Now you can argue they can, its an ludicrous statement but you have made it. In reality thats not remotely close to the truth or why dont you prove it by getting semi endgame character on a server you dont play w/o charging on said server before game closes?

Lets say somebody plays 2 toons and nets roughly 10m/day income/toon. Thats bout what FSP and DUP should land if I`m not mistaken. 600m a month, wow, so easy, right? Now lets see what that 600m gets you. In grand scheme of things it nets you pretty much nothing. You need roughly 10 months of that to get basic R9 gear, which is first step towards endgame gear and just because you have it wont stop literally everybody 1shotting you. Not to mention nobody is actually taking **** geared toons into DUP so your income would actually be drastically lower than used on math here.

Yes, LoLs business model is working and they do not sell anything, which would give real advantage over non paying customers in game. But I guess this is fake news cause it doesnt fit your view of how paying customers have to have an advantage in order for the game to succeed?

Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.

Smart argument. Jadasia"s comments are full of hatred towards f2p players, nothing intelligent said from his/her mouth.

jadasia wrote: »

snorts

It's okay to be wrong, you know.

jadasia wrote: »

[

eeepsilon wrote: »

Not really sure why you are so obsessed with entitlement, this is not twitter or some sjw forum… Yeah I get your point: cashers are the ones dumping money and should be above the f2p people.

{Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}

But this argument here is way too cringy and wrong in my opinion:





Now if this was 2015 or before that I would completly agree with you and even applaud you for saying this, but on current year saying that is not even funy as a joke. The developer of this game removed almost everything that a f2p player would use as way to farm/merch/whatever they do in game to gear up, they also removed any need for a casher to get anything from f2p people, they don't even need their coins anymore. Heck, they put barriers on basic gear, daily quests, even last culti is targeting spark kill squads, even tho in that case it is posible for a nab to get it so you can ignore that if you want.

{Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}

You claim that people demand everything that others got with effort for free, but do they?

{Yes, I've seen the threads and posts in the forums}

I mean correct me if I am wrong but are you defending the way in which this developer handle power creep?

{You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.

I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.

Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}

Yes maybe the OP is a bit unreasonable and sounds salty, but I don't see him/her asking for free end game stuff.

{Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}

I don't think that people who is f2p should be on same ground as p2w whales, but be realistic, not because 6 years ago it was hard to get something like nirvana, it should mean that now have to be even harder, in fact the whole concept of having end game gear to farm outdated garbage is plain idiotic.

{G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}

Just ask yourself this: Do you think that a guy that is r9s3+12, g17s5 weapon, NP and lvl 3 atck or def shards. would care if some random no name dude can get his g16 helmet/cape in reasonable amount of time time?

Do you think that same super OP whale would care if the guy can farm some dungeon and get some coin to progress a bit on the game?

Would that casher be ofended when the g16 dude manages to get r9 bad refined…? The whale would probably be full g17 or r10 or whatever the name of that new gear that is coming by that time..

I would completly understand and agree with you if people here was asking for insta free r9 or free NP or some crazy stuff.

{What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.

Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}

I am sorry but I can not white knight this game, it have nothing to do with free stuff, not even balance, the way in which this game has changed is even self destructive for itself. In one of your first post on this thread you mention capitalism, but a Smart capitalist company would never try to depend in a super low number of customers, the moment that they lose those few customers they have to shot down.

{A smart company caters to paying customers.}

Also not really related to what you mentioned but the in game economy of pwi is not really capitalist at all, it is more like some sort of socialist dictatorship.

BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.

I am not going to counter all your statements 'cause some things are subjective, like when you say that the OP is entitled as example. However I do feel the need to point some things that you are either ignoring or misunderstanding.

{Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}

As I said before, not really going to argue this one, cause I am not the OP, nor can I read his/her mind. Still can give the benefit of the doubt. Or maybe you are correct on this one, but what you or me think of the OP is nothing more than conjetures.

{Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}

Now here you are just trying to justify both the developer and Publisher nonsense. You may try to put it in whatever way you want, but as I say before, this game is not b2p, neither is subscription based. This game had pw2 mechanics and advantage for their cashers since years ago. And again there never really was too much of a problem. People wanted to pay for stuff to be OP or just to skip content due lack of time or other reasons, they could. People wanted to farm and merch a lot to get good gear and in many cases they could, it was just a more reasonable long path, but still posible and reasonable. Nowadays that is not the case.

{You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.
I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.
Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}

You may call it whatever you want, but trying to deny the existence of Power creep in any sort of MMO rpg is like someone trying to deny the sun's existence just 'cause they don't like it, or because it does not validate their opinion.

How do other games handle power creep?
They make old content either more affordable to new and returning players or at least leave it untouched so said people can eventually catch up.
How does this dev handle the power creep?
They remove obsolete garbage gear like nirvy capes and Helms from forges, and put it behind a pay wall or in a dungeon where most of the people that need said gear will not be able to go.
They remove basic stuff from quest and put it on dungeons or behind pay walls on.
Then you proceed in that same reply to make fun of people QQing about not being able to culti on r9s3+12 JOSD, still people trying to vitae culti on maxed gear are usually cashers, you are pretty much contradicting yourself there.
Then this...

I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.
Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?

G17 gear is indeed technically posible to get by farming it, however you need to be OP or billionare to get in a reasonable amount of time, the g17 gear is part of our current end game gear, so I see no problem in being hard to get
I don't really see what you are trying to imply there.
You either misread what I said before or are just ignoring it all along.

{Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}

Again, not gonna argue there, since I cant read the person's mind.

{G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}

Again, you either misunderstood what I said there or are intentionally ignoring what I said. You are making it sound as if I was asking for easy g17.
Never did I say that whe should get easy current end game gear.
What I was saying there is that obsolete gear that can help a new or returning player to progress SHOULD NOT be put behind nonsensical paywalls and dungeons that are our current end game. That does not help the f2p player, nor does it help pwe or the cashers. The less people playing, less interaction and fun the whales have and less potential new spenders pwe can get. You may try to justify that as much as you want, but that is not smart, that is just the dev and Publisher shoting their own feet.

{What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.
Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}

Again you are even ignoring facts now to try to justify your statements.
Many r9+12 jaded people just power level on Frost at the time, dumped a ton of money in the game and got all their end game stuff with real money and there is nothing wrong with that. They compensate the lack of in game effort with real money which is fine in my opinion.
However you are expecting that a person who is f2p to gear and progress in a game in which pretty much all ways of farming and market are broken, in which even obsolete stuff is purposely removed to make f2p people rage quit.
You then bring tt, lunar and g16 as example to validate what you are saying.
Yes tt and lunar are still posible but you need to turn it into nirvana to make g16... And I think you already know what they did with that

{A smart company caters to paying customers.}

This is true, however everyone knows why most of whales dump thousands of $$$ on a f2p outdated mmo. If you remove the whale's entertainment, you remove their reason to spend money.
At the end of the day is not even about to be fair with f2p is about giving them a reasonable goal so at least they have a sense of achievement. If a guy make a character on this game and see that everything is almost impossible to achieve, they just quit.
On the other hand if that same person see that his effort actually rewards him, he Will keep playing, that person may even end up spending real money to speed up things or to compete with the whales. Even if that person does not spend, he still is entertaiment for the whales that just want easy wins.

BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.

This is an alf correct and alf wrong statement.


While is true that many of the prices are indeed regulated by players, a lot of how the in game economy works nowadays is actually controlled by the dev and publisher. The developer has repeatedly removed ways in which f2p people can get in game currency, they removed or turn stuff which would allow players to be part of the economy useless, while buffing packs and keys. The publisher at same time is the one that controls how the sales works, if you add to that the fact that the publisher seems to be unable to combat bots and people abusing stuff, you are left with a in game economy that is broken and that is nothing more than a bunch of whales opening keys/packs like crazy and spending billions that come from that.

Also the whole demand / supply argument is not really a valid justification. While is true that supply and demand are part of any economic system, this does not remove said system from a broken economy. Take any country in crisis, even one with hyper inflation, not 'cause there is a bunch of people that would pay 50 millions for a bag of chips would that mean that is the correct price. In fact the more that people is willing to pay for garbage, the more broken that the economy is.

Not because all cashers on pwi are drawning on billions of coins would that mean that everything is fine, after all the more money they have, less value that money hold.

Take Venezuela as example, in that country there are people who literally have bags of money, so by logic one could say that they are rich, yet they can not even buy some basic stuff, not only 'cause there is almost nothing to buy, but also 'cause their money is devaluated.
Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that PWI is on same state, but when a publisher and developer mess with the in game economy just 'cause greed or to yolo, you get a dead game with just a bunch of whales opening loot boxes all day and eventually quiting due being bored.


Now to be honest, I don't see reasonable to ask the developer to fix this game, specially considering that as many other mmos is too dependent on packs/keys, and lot of nations are starting to debate that, so there is not much future for that business model anymore.


I Agree with @monkiimk1

PWE most likely trying to drain their whales either before they get bored or before the company become unable to use the lootbox business model.

jadasia wrote: »

hurrdurrurr wrote: »

They arent wanted in nuke squads because they dont have the gear for them? If they did, they`d be taken, just like anybody else. Nuke squads have quite literally zero requirement to actually knowing how to play this game as its all gear - they are so dumbed down way of doing things its not even funny. Even if you were support class with debuffs/amps, you wouldnt be taken cause everybody and their moms got so many toons that they dont need low geared players to take part of their split. Well short of everybody in squad already running several toons in which case having one less toon to worry bout might be worth giving 10th of the split to some random.

Now back in days of Frost babies the theoretical & actual endgame, not to mention the "average you dont suck gear" were a lot closer and easier to achieve than nowdays. Did we even have re-awakenings back then? Point being the gear required to be useful to squads was a lot less and easier to achieve back then.

This game has never been hard for people with somewhat functioning brains. Please tell me what mindlessly grinding some mobs/quests teaches to new players? All they ever did was teach basic solo gameplay content. BHs introduced some basic squad gameplay but kicking newbies for being newbies is some serious elitist ****. Cleric doesnt know they are supposed to BB? Teach them, simple as that. I honestly didnt mind new people, if they had brain as this game was super easy to teach at basic level.

And like I`ve told you prolly 10 times, F2P are beneficial to this game just because they play it. Just answer me this, will you keep spending on this game when there is nobody to play with? Cause I know I wouldnt but maybe, to some people, just circlejerking with the few ppl left over their pixels is enough.

As I already mentioned Frost and Pill babies weren't wanted in non-nuke squads either. I already stated why nobody wants undergeared and unskilled characters in squads. When you ask a BM to HF or an EP to BB and they respond with "what's that" then you'll figure out what I'm talking about.

They are completely worthless toons who wanted the easy way. Funny how people who get the easy way feel entitled to get everything the easy way.

The game population diminished the moment PW devs altered course and started removing incentive for players to build their characters off of PvE content included on the world map.

Cash shop should have offered items to enhance the character only. Not eliminate the need to quest to end game.

The moment the first Anniversary pack debuted gold went from 120K per to 500K per then shortly to 1 mil. Been spiraling that way every since.

End game people at my character's level don't really give 2 cents about the F2P people unless they are near the same level. I help them out in the game from time to time but really they do nothing for us. They're like ants. If they removed all F2P people from the game and left just the cashers with their end game it wouldn't bee much different to me than it is now realistically. Sure, fewer people but will not change my game play at all.

F2P people should focus on level 1 to 95. The game environment provides everything they need to play at that level. I just got a free dreamchaser pack in my mail this morning for hell's sake.

I know plenty of ppl who were Frost babies, who did turn out to be decent players with very little guidance. You didnt know anything bout the game before you started playing either and judging ppl for lack of knowledge with little play time is plain idiotic. Would you have known what BB abbreviation means if you werent told? Cause I know I wouldnt when it has nothing to do with the name of the skill. The times I`ve encountered ppl who were truly hopeless were few and rare, most times we could still get trough instances with them, it just took bit more effort on my part.

And gold was 200k prior to anni packs as chests of coins and hammers existed before them and those chests were plentiful. Every single massive spike in gold prices was result of management of this game by publisher. We actually hit 4m gold at some point, then they took out DQ coin value, which started dropping gold prices and we were ~3m when they did something(Cant actually remember what) to promote boutique, which in turn got us back to 4m+ gold prices that never dropped. It was near 4m for a long time though, then came keys with foils and gold prices more than doubled.

So you are happy playing a game, where top factions on their servers struggle to field 60 for xTW? Cause thats where we are going fast with losing players left and right. What you cant seem to comprehend is, nobody wants to be at the bottom of the food chain. When the bottom leaves and makes ppl higher up the food chain the new bottom, they will do the same in a chain reaction if and when they dont have means to climb up the food chain. And if there is no ppl to play with, there is no reason to spend either, unless, like I said earlier, you are satisfied circlejerking over pixels with the few ppl left. If thats the case, internet is full of ****, which prolly does the thing better.

You considering F2P portion of this game some level 1-95 demo is likely the dumbest thing I read on these forums this year. This includes all the dumb crying Joe posts weekly about rng.

yoabu#2667 wrote: »

The P2W vs F2P argument is a bit like what I witnessed in an MMO called Rift. The game has instanced content referred to as "raids". A bit of organisation and dedication is required to enjoy it - the optimal way would be to join a raiding guild, adhere to a raiding schedule, work diligently on your character and so on and so forth. A group of people who didn't want to / couldn't put in the same effort wanted access to the same content and its rewards. They would cry and **** and whinge until they got their way. The game is pretty much dead now.

What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players. People look at that the NP g17 +3 squads can do and want to be like them. The truth is - they will never be like them. Period. Not ever. There is plenty of content before NP and +3 shards to enjoy. g15 squads can handle FSP, UCH and other stuff. Instances have various modes for a reason. Somebody 5-manning DDH doesn't mean I should be able to even finish it in a full group. There is normal DH to enjoy. There are B-Card Sets and 2/3/4-piece A-Card Sets for a reason.

I dont understnad how Rift didnt do what WoW and FF14 do for example. Make different tiers of the same raids - Easy version for ppl who dont have motivation/time/means to really raid and then couple harder ones for players who can handle a real challenge.

Nobody is asking NP, +3 shards, etc. The problem with PWI and powercreep is the fact this game is very PvP heavy. PvE is nothing but means to gear up and the endgame content, all of it, revolves around PvP. I dont know what kind of plebs you play with if you think 5 manning DDH is hard. I been part of squads, where we 4 manned JDH meching it, not spark killing, meching it. Pretty sure they 3 manned it once when I wasnt around too. To me, Sastasha(First dungeon on FF14) is more interesting/challenging than DDH. And honestly, DH as an instance is the most interesting PvE instance PWI has to offer.

yoabu#2667 wrote: »

@hurrdurrurr Rift did that. It wasn't enough. The easier tiers didn't award the same kind of gear as the harder tiers. And so people whinged and moaned. They caved in. And the raiders left in droves. The fact is - people will always whinge and moan.

Congratz on 4-manning DDH. I don't know what "meching" is, though.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure how you managed to miss this sentence:

What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players.

Not DDH but JDH. And meching as in killing the boss w/o spark killing it aka not simply gear smashing. Sure, you need gear to do that with only 4 ppl playing.

My point regarding the tangent I went on, this game isnt your classic MMORPG where PvE can be endgame too. Cause realistically there is nothing in PvE content, which I would consider achievement clearing. Nor does any PvE content alone give the best gear available either - The gear is actually behind pay walls. G17 weps are bit of an exception even if the hardest mats to farm are also in the rng boxes. They should, at this point in time, just release JUP, which would give quest reward of bound skull shard(s). This wouldnt affect market much but it would make it farming G17 weps a realistic option. But thats not really what this thread is bout.

With PvP being the endgame content, powercreep becomes a major issue. With how hard its to achieve gear nowdays, which would be competitive in PvP setting, lot of ppl, instead of gearing up, just give up. And we lose players, some who would potentially put some money into the game too.

In MMORPG where you could find achievements for clearing PvE content, your argument would be a fine one, just because something exists doesnt mean you should have access to it. But this is PvP oriented game, where you gain achievements by fighting other players for them. With how hard its to gear up to reasonable level, PvP content is simply out of reach for a lot of ppl so they quit and honestly with how dead servers start to be, losing players is pretty bad thing for everybody.

Honestly, I`m pretty high in the ladder of gear and I wouldnt personally give a flying **** if PWE started giving away free R9 sets. They wont, I`m not asking they would but I wouldnt care. All it would give me is give more ppl to play with and while that gear is set to 700+ gold on sales. They would still need refines, cards, start chart, boundary levels, passives and so on to actually get on my gear power level. And thats a lot of time/money to get there.

@hurrdurrurr Indeed, PvP is the endgame content in PWI, just like raiding was in Rift. Raiders in Rift had to dedicate a lot of time and effort (and have at least a modicum of hand-to-eye coordination) to enjoy the best rewards (at least until Trion ruined it). Top PvPers in PWI have to dedicate an inordinate amount of time and/or money to achieve comparable results.

People like comparing dicks. I'll repeat, though - most will never, ever be close to those big cashers. Not ever. PWI may make g16 more accessible, may make farming more profitable, may throw r9 at everybody and 99% will still die in one-shot and they will be as upset as they are in their g15. Sure, they will have easier access to UP or whatever, but when when they go to do engame, they will still spend most of the time clicking the "Return to town" button.

I appreciate that you may not consider anything PvE-related an achievement, when squads can 4-man JDH, probably the hardest instance in the game. I'd say finishing a Trophy Mode in FB99 with a rainbow TT90+3/4 squad or completing full WS in TT99 can be quite the achievement. People (in general), will rather compare themselves to Genesesia and cry P2W, though.

It's a broader notion than something as trivial as enjoying a game, but if people stop comparing themselves to others and start comparing themselves to who they were the day before, they might enjoy it a little more

@nonameak47#2389 But... how am I a troll... you literally just confirmed what I wrote...

Trion alienated PvPers by removing PvP-exclusive gear, because "casuals" cried that they don't have access to that content. They alienated raiders by giving out raid-quality rewards and making raids trivial, because "casuals" cried that they don't have access to that content.

The principle is the same - Trion tried to make all content accessible to everybody and killed the game in the process.

BTW - my guild beat Coriolis to the punch a couple of times They probably got the best of us more often, though.

If ya do not like where the game is or has been going, you know what you should do...If you want to compete with those that spend alot of money to feel entitled and better then the ants...and dont have the money or years of farming to pvp then go private, you can pvp for free and not hang with entitled people who spend all that cash to feel better then others, most of the friendly people have been pushed out.