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  • wettstylewettstyle Posts: 233 Arc User
    There is a medium from both sides of what people are saying here.. that is the sweet spot!! Trying to or finding that is what is so difficult in a game and in Real Life..
  • gravewulfgravewulf Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    [quote="jadasia;c-12764508"You must be new to PWI.

    God forbid a for profit company caters to people who pay real money to play it.

    PS..the old saying "You get what you pay for" applies here just as well as anywhere else. You want more then pay for it.[/quote]

    No, you *don't* get what you pay for, and anyone that says they do, must have a lot of liquidable income to spend here. The fact is, that you get very little in return, for the exorbitant prices they charge for the intellectual property that you basically lease.

    I've played for about ten years, I don't spend a lot, maybe $40 - $100 a month or so, but over time, that has added up, (not to mention about once a year, I purchase a large amount for major upgrades).

    I don't care who you are, or how you spin/justify that, but you're blind, if you think what they charge, and how they charge for stuff, is fair and reasonable. It isn't, period.





  • bankerscottbankerscott Posts: 1 Arc User
    Weighing in:

    Played PWI from launch. I remember WCing for help to run FB19 and having a lvl 37 Venomancer come and lure mobs one by one to get us through it. Took hours. Was a frickin' blast. I use to casually cash shop, dropping a little here and there as needed to speed up progress or get that cool fashion. (I once dropped $20 on gold when it was selling for 100K in Ah to pay for upgrading the faction tier) Ran guilds that were made up both CSers and F2P. Controlled up to half the map in TW at one point. Even though this game is super outdated graphically and mechanically, I still have nostalgia for what was once the most incredible game available at the time. Every so often I get the itch and try to get back into it. There are "better" games out there, but none has accomplished what the early version of this game had. The need to play TOGETHER to get things done.


    PWI was once a game where you NEEDED to have a balanced party with each member doing their role flawlessly to beat the FBs and bosses. P2W power creep has destroyed that. Get a party of RRR9s +12 and steamroll anything. The second thing the overindulgence in the P2W model killed was the interdependence of the two main types of players. You had people with lots of time and no real life money, involved in a symbiotic relationship with those with money and no time. Before rep was for sale, before the whole Rank 9 via cash shop thing happened, no matter how much money you had to spend, you still needed someone to farm those Twilight Temple materials and Nirvana materials to make that gear. Big spenders still had that edge from being able to afford to easily refine gear, or pay for skills, but the gap was reasonable. The F2P players could eventually catch up with lots of time and effort because that time translated into things they could sell to those without the time to spare. You also needed a good number of F2P players to fill out you guild for territory wars. I remember the great sense of accomplishment when my guild, which was mostly F2P players with a couple whales, overcoming a much better geared and leveled guild using, oh my god, STRATEGY and COMMUNICATION.

    PWE also manages Star Trek Online, which never left behind the concept of interdependence between F2P and P2W. From what I understand it's a far more profitable game that is still growing. Whales buy lock box keys, and sell the goods to F2P players that grind for resources. Everyone wins. They regularly hold events that players can participate in using only their time and effort and get rewards that put them on a level playing field with the big spenders. There are still plenty of shiny things you have to buy that people drop mad cash on, but you don't get a distinct competitive advantage from it.

    I agree with the posters above that say it's likely too late for PWI to recover. I collected my free Warrior Pack and pilled a wizard toon I have had for two years in mothballs. Always wanted a Wizard but found them too frustrating at low level. After about a week, I lost interest, not because the game isn't fun, but because it's near impossible to get through certain stages of culti, especially since multi client is gone. No one is out there running FBs etc. It used to be a huge incentive to help newbies get their culti because of the REP. In my opinion that was the beginning of the end, selling rep. We would probably still have a thriving game if the "whales" (hate that term, never resented cash shoppers, used to be so thankful for their help) if prior to dropping a bunch of cash to get rank 9, you still had to EARN THE REP POINTS.

    Someone, somewhere, will figure out a way to recreate the type of game we once had, and I feel certain they will BANK from it. Be honest, doesn't the idea of a methodical run through Eden, relying on your favorite skilled veno to pull the mobs, while the BM stunned, the Barb grabbed aggro, the archer and wizard let loose (control your aggro DDs, don't want to get too much attention to your squishy self) and the cleric busted **** healing, buffing, debuffing, sound like fun? It does to me ...
  • goldfinch47goldfinch47 Posts: 180 Arc User
    Well said, bankerscott!
    An MMO that is one thing for one group of people is not realizing its potential.
  • eeepsiloneeepsilon Posts: 293 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    Nobody is advocating the removal F2P players completely from the game. In fact F2P players have a path to end game gear too. Just takes more time and work to do it. A LOT more as it should be.

    My point is that F2P players are not entitled to the same benefits as those who pay to play. If they were then there would no incentive to pay anything and the lights would go out very quickly for PWI.

    In contrast to the complaint made original post there should never be any balance between those who pay money to play the game and those who don't. If you people are incapable of grasping that simple concept then that is your issue, not mine.

    I literally laugh at those who think they are entitled to have the same stuff other people paid hard earned money for... for free.

    And I laugh even harder when those same self entitled people complain about putting up the same effort to get to the same level of gear and etc. someone else worked hard to achieve.

    That "I demand everything you have but I shouldn't have to pay for it or work as hard as you did for it because it causes imbalance in the game" mentality deserves to be ridiculed into oblivion.

    Not really sure why you are so obsessed with entitlement, this is not twitter or some sjw forum… Yeah I get your point: cashers are the ones dumping money and should be above the f2p people.

    But this argument here is way too cringy and wrong in my opinion:

    jadasia wrote: »
    In fact F2P players have a path to end game gear too. Just takes more time and work to do it. A LOT more as it should be.


    Now if this was 2015 or before that I would completly agree with you and even applaud you for saying this, but on current year saying that is not even funy as a joke. The developer of this game removed almost everything that a f2p player would use as way to farm/merch/whatever they do in game to gear up, they also removed any need for a casher to get anything from f2p people, they don't even need their coins anymore. Heck, they put barriers on basic gear, daily quests, even last culti is targeting spark kill squads, even tho in that case it is posible for a nab to get it so you can ignore that if you want.

    You claim that people demand everything that others got with effort for free, but do they?
    I mean correct me if I am wrong but are you defending the way in which this developer handle power creep?

    Yes maybe the OP is a bit unreasonable and sounds salty, but I don't see him/her asking for free end game stuff.

    I don't think that people who is f2p should be on same ground as p2w whales, but be realistic, not because 6 years ago it was hard to get something like nirvana, it should mean that now have to be even harder, in fact the whole concept of having end game gear to farm outdated garbage is plain idiotic.


    Just ask yourself this: Do you think that a guy that is r9s3+12, g17s5 weapon, NP and lvl 3 atck or def shards. would care if some random no name dude can get his g16 helmet/cape in reasonable amount of time time?

    Do you think that same super OP whale would care if the guy can farm some dungeon and get some coin to progress a bit on the game?

    Would that casher be ofended when the g16 dude manages to get r9 bad refined…? The whale would probably be full g17 or r10 or whatever the name of that new gear that is coming by that time..

    I would completly understand and agree with you if people here was asking for insta free r9 or free NP or some crazy stuff.

    I am sorry but I can not white knight this game, it have nothing to do with free stuff, not even balance, the way in which this game has changed is even self destructive for itself. In one of your first post on this thread you mention capitalism, but a Smart capitalist company would never try to depend in a super low number of customers, the moment that they lose those few customers they have to shot down.


    Also not really related to what you mentioned but the in game economy of pwi is not really capitalist at all, it is more like some sort of socialist dictatorship.

  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    eeepsilon wrote: »
    jadasia wrote: »
    jadasia wrote: »
    jadasia wrote: »
    gravewulf wrote: »
    New engraving, Glyph refining, and more content geared for the few percent who spend a lot of money. Congratulations! For the casual, or average player, (which is most of us), more imbalance! YAY! :|

    You must be new to PWI.

    God forbid a for profit company caters to people who pay real money to play it.

    And how has strictly catering to whales worked for playerbase? PWE needs ridiculous amounts of money per whale to meet their goals nowdays instead of taking less from larger pool of ppl.

    PS. Its pretty sad when there are private servers which are more active than retail.

    People who pay money to play keep PWI employees employed, Developers developing, servers up, etc. They deserve to be better than those who contribute nothing. Welcome to capitalism. Without them you have no game to play.

    If you think you can run a better MMO company then by all means go for it.

    PS..the old saying "You get what you pay for" applies here just as well as anywhere else. You want more then pay for it.

    Also, it's none of your business how much other people choose to spend and buy or how they choose to play the game

    I dont even. Its like you read nothing of what I said.

    F2P players are extremely important to the longevity of this game - They provide items/services to paying players. They become faction mates, friends, just general playerbase to interact with. You cut them out and the game looks and feels lot emptier. They might not pay but they provide clear positive to PWE by just playing and keeping paying players entertained.

    Not that there are many truly f2p players left in this game as their means to play the game has drastically been cut. And you know what, even some of the bigger spenders are moving towards private servers because they are flat out bored on PWI. PWI is losing by kicking f2p players on the head too many times.

    But sure, go on bout capitalism like you have no brain.

    I read what you said but try reading what I said. PWI/PWE is a for profit company. It seems they are purposely thinning out non-paying clients to reduce their overhead costs including but not limited to server bandwidth and employee time dealing with tickets from non paying players.

    The company wants to cater to and allocate their resources to paying customers. Which for profit company doesn't? It's a business.

    As stated earlier think of F2P people playing a limited trial version of the game. They get what they pay for.

    While pretty much all of what you said about this game is in some way true, and indeed pwi caters to heavy cashers more than anyone else. And yes, it would be naive to expect that a company that is for profit would put f2p people on same ground as real costumers that are dumping thousands on this game, even if we take all that in consideration, I think there is a huge flaw on your whole argument.
    The problem whit what you are saying is that the whole argument of taking f2p players as a part of a trial version, demo or whatever you want to call it can not be applied to a f2p and p2w game as this one. Trial version are aplied to either subscription based or b2p games.

    Even if you disregard almost everything of what @hurrdurrurr and @prancing said to you, there is still something that you need to ask yourself about f2p/p2w and hardcore cashers (whales) and the question is:
    Why they dump huge amounts of money on a game?

    Now don't get the wrong Idea, I am not judging them or making fun of them, in fact I agree with you that it is their money, hence, no one can judge them how they spend it. Also it is true that it is thanks to them that all f2p/p2w games keep running.
    However the question still remains, and as I said before, not to judge or troll them, but mainly because you seem to be mising a big aspect about many p2w players and the type of person this kind of game is targeting.


    To put it simple, if you remove f2p people almost completly from the game, specially from the pvp aspect, you only have a bunch of whales that would have to kill each other to have fun, if you do that, the game is not p2w anymore, it is nothing more than a super expensive pay to pvp game. People who usually put insane amounts of money on the pvp side of a f2p game, do it to have an advantage over others, not to strugle against people same geared or even better geared than them.
    Of course that what both @hurrdurrurr and @prancing replied before also affect the longevity of the game, however it will not kill it immediately, PWI in fact is the living proof of a game that got its internal economy completly destroyed by both the developer and Publisher and somehow manages to survive. However if you remove the capacity of the whales to feel powerful and important, you are killing their purpose for dumping the ton of money they put in the game.

    I know that what I am saying may sound really offensive for some people here, but trust me when i say that it is not my intention to flame them or insult them in any way. However, no matter what people try to argue against this, it can not be denied, sure there are exceptions of heavy cashers that don't care about pw2 advantage, some are just fashion addicts or pack/key addicts, but still most of the ones that spend a ton are the hardcore pvp kind, and not the type of players that want to just have fun. And as I say before if you completly remove their gear advantage, you are removing their reason to play. And leaving the game only with rich people with pretty much the same gear is exactly that, that is not different than puting them in a pv server...

    Nobody is advocating the removal F2P players completely from the game. In fact F2P players have a path to end game gear too. Just takes more time and work to do it. A LOT more as it should be.

    My point is that F2P players are not entitled to the same benefits as those who pay to play. If they were then there would no incentive to pay anything and the lights would go out very quickly for PWI.

    In contrast to the complaint made original post there should never be any balance between those who pay money to play the game and those who don't. If you people are incapable of grasping that simple concept then that is your issue, not mine.

    I literally laugh at those who think they are entitled to have the same stuff other people paid hard earned money for... for free.

    And I laugh even harder when those same self entitled people complain about putting up the same effort to get to the same level of gear and etc. someone else worked hard to achieve.

    That "I demand everything you have but I shouldn't have to pay for it or work as hard as you did for it because it causes imbalance in the game" mentality deserves to be ridiculed into oblivion.

    You cant be serious with what you are spewing, can you?

    I personally made alt on another server bout 2 years ago iirc. To test how it feels like to gear up a new character with no resources from other toons/cashing. It felt absolutely terrible. This was during pillbaby code so leveling was easy and you got free TT99 gear with the code. Even so just looking at how much I would have to work on a side project just to get the toon into N3, let alone further than that, felt too much. And I had all the knowledge of the game, its mechanics and so on gathered over the years of playing.

    There is technically path to endgame for non paying users but in reality there isnt one. The amount of work/time you`d have to put on a dying game is ludicrous. And they keep killing means to catch up/gear up with each new update.

    And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers - Why do you think the least P2W years of PWI were also by far most popular years of it? After nirvana died, the farmers lost their main source of income and as a result the symbiosis somebody mentioned died. Sure, there were pack sales and other stuff which also attributed to the fall the game had but thats, imo, the point where the game started kicking F2P players in the head.

    Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title. Your average people do not want massive gear gap between paying and non paying customers and they for sure arent willing to spend the amounts PWE asks for gear. Sure, there is bound to be gear gap if you offer gear in cash shop and thats fine but the way this game handled it all just killed the playerbase.

    All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead. I remember being in guild on 08, which was maybe 5th 6th in power on server, they were fielding full or close enough full 80. Nowdays there are servers where top guilds cant pull that. Sure, years would of eaten some of the playerbase but with good management PWE would of made a lot more money from large pool of players over couple of whales. And as I have said earlier, there are whales moving to private servers cause they are bored on PWI - This is largely result of too small playerbase to PvP(PvP events included) with, which is direct result of monetization of this game.

  • eeepsilon wrote: »
    I envy f2p players who are content with PvE in this game.
    Segregating the f2p players however, is a dumb move for any game. The economy was destroyed by PW due to the fact that there were no worthwhile coinsinks implemented into the game (e.g. building a drakeflame via NPC costs about 4b coins, while to buy via wc you can get one for about 120m).

    There is also the fact that pw China has been constantly pushing changes that make f2p players completly unnecessary for the cashers from an economic point of view. In the past there was a sort of synergy between both of them, but now this game is in a state in which cashers can literally generate billions of coin from keys or packs without even selling stuff to other players, sure there was always ways to generate money out of packs, but it was not as much as it is from the current key/pack system.

    On the other hand there is almost nothing that a f2p player can generate now that a casher would need. Even some of the items that would be basic for a f2p player to survive, like outdated basic gear, the developer tried to put them behind a paywall, this lead us to another problem on this game which is terrible management of power creep.
    While other games try to make old and outdated gear/systems easy to obtain so both new and old returning players can at least catch up to pve content. PWI actually make it harder by pretty much saying to those people: “Nop, sorry dude, you need to either cash or run this end game dungeon for rich people in which you need to be carried and that most likely you would not be invited in order to to get that piece of gear, that by the way is useless and outdated for your average player, but still needed by you..."

    This is something that pwcn been doing for some time now to our version.

    Your posts actually align with my philosophy when I was writing up this suggestion, if you're interested then you should check it out:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/pwi#/discussion/1209336/suggestion-for-3v3-6v6-ranked-to-make-the-game-more-new-player-competitive-player-friendly
  • scooooterscooooter Posts: 13 Arc User
    I didn't read most of this but as a free to play player here to have fun with my friends most games that are free to play keep things farm-able in some way. When you eliminate anything needing farmed for a cash shopper to buy from free to play players you eventually kill a game. I have put money in this game myself not as much as others more than some. I just want to have fun with friends but nothing to farm in game can't even mob farm the coin drops sucks DQ has no value hp mp drops have no value to npc. Auto culti was a cool idea but it screwed people in the long run. you guys keep talking like free to play players are worthless Thanks for that. I understand its a for profit business, but you really need to see the whole picture great you are rich. If you want to be that fricken OP and isolate people from competing enjoy yourselves when the server shuts down and your 10s of thousands of dollars aren't refunded. It is what happens when player bases drop to low or there are only cash shoppers left that sit in SZ because other cash shoppers are out of sz. Say what you want call me stupid call me useless I really don't care about your opinion otherwise I would have left this game long ago because of what people think of me.
  • people say pvp is dead.
    g175th cast with dimilight figure...nprb2 with almost identical value of phy def and mag def.
    almost 500 spirit difference between average joe.. not that stupid as joe.
    if you are the top. fighting with same gear and spirit as you is boring as fk. few people still pk's but this is boring ...
    but fighting weak geared people with just abba set and g16 gears. is like squishing ants. people like this. but those weak ants don't want to even bother joining nw where they do nothing but die...
    this is where. pvp dies down. the gap itself is where the root cause of pvp dying down.
    IN ORDER TO COMBAT THIS BORING AS* FIGHTS. THEY COMPENSATED WITH GLYPHS
    that works as rock paper scissors. now the perfectly equal spirit and gear people can somehow enjoy pvp again.
    but this thrill dies down immediately.
    xtw turning into kill the dragon first... with exactly minimal pvp action going on.
    and tw with same old same old guild that don't even fight each other but just conquers lands and get m coins from it.
    yeah. putting alts on another alt faction doing the same thing .. get easy coins.
    PVP. XTW,XNW,NW,TW needs a complete overhaul if you ask me...
    pwi turning into whoever gets more np rb2 toons wins the game...
    i just wish to go back to the time when spirits was not introduced.
    people fighting with love... and drop-able mats makes the whole thing super exciting now with bound gears and scrolls preventing you from dropping stuf makes the pvp world tastesless coz no consequence with dying...
    maybe create if you die in pvp you lose all gears. and start again to level 1.
  • jadasiajadasia Posts: 519 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    gravewulf wrote: »
    No, you *don't* get what you pay for, and anyone that says they do, must have a lot of liquidable income to spend here. The fact is, that you get very little in return, for the exorbitant prices they charge for the intellectual property that you basically lease.

    I've played for about ten years, I don't spend a lot, maybe $40 - $100 a month or so, but over time, that has added up, (not to mention about once a year, I purchase a large amount for major upgrades).

    I don't care who you are, or how you spin/justify that, but you're blind, if you think what they charge, and how they charge for stuff, is fair and reasonable. It isn't, period.

    But people pay it. Why? Because things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If you have a problem with the price of things then you don't purchase those things. Problem solved...for you.



    Weighing in:

    "Book about the old days when squads and classes joined to kill things...etc, etc.."

    People still make rainbow squads to kill things in instances every day. That is not the definition of balance the OP is referring to and you know it.

    But if people really want balance in the game then they will squad and compete with others who are the same level of gear and character development. That is..play with other F2P people.

    Most won't because they want the OP maxed out gear cash shoppers to just nuke the instances for them.


    eeepsilon wrote: »

    Not really sure why you are so obsessed with entitlement, this is not twitter or some sjw forum… Yeah I get your point: cashers are the ones dumping money and should be above the f2p people.

    {Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}

    But this argument here is way too cringy and wrong in my opinion:





    Now if this was 2015 or before that I would completly agree with you and even applaud you for saying this, but on current year saying that is not even funy as a joke. The developer of this game removed almost everything that a f2p player would use as way to farm/merch/whatever they do in game to gear up, they also removed any need for a casher to get anything from f2p people, they don't even need their coins anymore. Heck, they put barriers on basic gear, daily quests, even last culti is targeting spark kill squads, even tho in that case it is posible for a nab to get it so you can ignore that if you want.

    {Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}

    You claim that people demand everything that others got with effort for free, but do they?

    {Yes, I've seen the threads and posts in the forums}

    I mean correct me if I am wrong but are you defending the way in which this developer handle power creep?

    {You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.

    I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.

    Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}


    Yes maybe the OP is a bit unreasonable and sounds salty, but I don't see him/her asking for free end game stuff.

    {Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}

    I don't think that people who is f2p should be on same ground as p2w whales, but be realistic, not because 6 years ago it was hard to get something like nirvana, it should mean that now have to be even harder, in fact the whole concept of having end game gear to farm outdated garbage is plain idiotic.

    {G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}

    Just ask yourself this: Do you think that a guy that is r9s3+12, g17s5 weapon, NP and lvl 3 atck or def shards. would care if some random no name dude can get his g16 helmet/cape in reasonable amount of time time?

    Do you think that same super OP whale would care if the guy can farm some dungeon and get some coin to progress a bit on the game?

    Would that casher be ofended when the g16 dude manages to get r9 bad refined…? The whale would probably be full g17 or r10 or whatever the name of that new gear that is coming by that time..

    I would completly understand and agree with you if people here was asking for insta free r9 or free NP or some crazy stuff.

    {What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.

    Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}


    I am sorry but I can not white knight this game, it have nothing to do with free stuff, not even balance, the way in which this game has changed is even self destructive for itself. In one of your first post on this thread you mention capitalism, but a Smart capitalist company would never try to depend in a super low number of customers, the moment that they lose those few customers they have to shot down.

    {A smart company caters to paying customers.}

    Also not really related to what you mentioned but the in game economy of pwi is not really capitalist at all, it is more like some sort of socialist dictatorship.

    BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.


    Lots and lots of QQ

    For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

    "And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

    ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

    There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

    your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

    "Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

    LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

    "All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

    I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

    The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

    But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

    Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

  • monkiimk1monkiimk1 Posts: 34 Arc User
    PW is just milking those who are dumb enough to spend money on a dying game at this point. No meaningful content has been added, only power creep items. Anyone with a shred of objectivity sees this while those who have paid tons of money to "be the best" at a f2p game defend it. lol

    I was really hoping the new expansion would make it worth playing again but its simply not worth it with nothing interesting at all being added.
  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

    "And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

    ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

    There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

    your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

    "Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

    LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

    "All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

    I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

    The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

    But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

    Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

    I dont even know why I bother but anyways.

    What is the pill getting you? It nets you 100-100-100 character. In grand scheme of things its literally nothing. Or how many 100-100-100 toons you see wrecking ppl? Oh right, none. But you get TT99 gear too(?), which again in grand scheme of things nets you obsolete gear you need to upgrade to higher stages of obsolete gear. Nobody would bat an eyelash if it was N2 gear, which you could then upgrade to N3 w/o having to jump hoops in order to get manufacturing skills up to get to basic level of gear where ppl still wont take you to any instances but least it would be the endgame of obsolete gear path.

    Maybe you should have some basic reading comprehension lessons as you clearly dont understand a single point. I nowhere claimed free players should have "same benefits", all I have argued is they should have means to match what paying customers have if they work for it. Now you can argue they can, its an ludicrous statement but you have made it. In reality thats not remotely close to the truth or why dont you prove it by getting semi endgame character on a server you dont play w/o charging on said server before game closes?

    Lets say somebody plays 2 toons and nets roughly 10m/day income/toon. Thats bout what FSP and DUP should land if I`m not mistaken. 600m a month, wow, so easy, right? Now lets see what that 600m gets you. In grand scheme of things it nets you pretty much nothing. You need roughly 10 months of that to get basic R9 gear, which is first step towards endgame gear and just because you have it wont stop literally everybody 1shotting you. Not to mention nobody is actually taking **** geared toons into DUP so your income would actually be drastically lower than used on math here.

    Yes, LoLs business model is working and they do not sell anything, which would give real advantage over non paying customers in game. But I guess this is fake news cause it doesnt fit your view of how paying customers have to have an advantage in order for the game to succeed?

    Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.
  • yoabu#2667 yoabu Posts: 49 Arc User
    Because comparing a 10+ years old MMORPG which was outdated on release day with a completely different game that targeted a fairly new, promising niche at launch is exactly how business models should be assessed.

    It's "should have" for heaven's sake!
  • thetruesinszthetruesinsz Posts: 66 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    For the love of god and all things holy we all just got a freaking pill that levels a toon to 100 then again after rebirthing. This game gives out more stuff for free than any other MMO I ever played.

    "And rest of your post is just idiotic entitlement. There for sure should be balance between paying and non paying customers"

    ROTFLMAO!! First you have no clue what entitlement is. If you did you would see how much of a hypocritical statement you just made.

    There is no such thing as a non paying customer because they are not customers. They do not contribute what is necessary for the company to make a payroll or pay the bills to keep the lights on.

    your idea of a 'non paying customer' is more accurately described as a free loader considering that you believe that they are entitled to have the same benefits as paying customers. LOL!

    "Just look at LoL for example, they sell nothing which would give you advantage over non paying customer, all you get is save some time with paying/cosmetic things. And they are raking in money on an old title"

    LOL! If they are raking in the cash on an old title then I suppose their business model is working.

    "All you need to do is look at TWs and call this game dead."

    I believe the game became compromised the moment they allowed hypers in frost and gave rise to the frost babies myself.

    The single biggest mistake the devs made was creating an easier and easier path to end game. Now pop a free pill to insta level to 100 and what do you get? A bunch of entitled people who complain because they didn't get more.

    But really I think a lot of the issue is that the game is running on an obsolete game engine which has some serious limitations on quality of game play. not to mention the drift away from the ancient lore and setting in the game. I mean when they introduced motorcycles it completely destroyed the game's lore by derailing it. Downhill since. with battle robots.

    Now a theme park. and soon an incoming gunner class.

    I dont even know why I bother but anyways.

    What is the pill getting you? It nets you 100-100-100 character. In grand scheme of things its literally nothing. Or how many 100-100-100 toons you see wrecking ppl? Oh right, none. But you get TT99 gear too(?), which again in grand scheme of things nets you obsolete gear you need to upgrade to higher stages of obsolete gear. Nobody would bat an eyelash if it was N2 gear, which you could then upgrade to N3 w/o having to jump hoops in order to get manufacturing skills up to get to basic level of gear where ppl still wont take you to any instances but least it would be the endgame of obsolete gear path.

    Maybe you should have some basic reading comprehension lessons as you clearly dont understand a single point. I nowhere claimed free players should have "same benefits", all I have argued is they should have means to match what paying customers have if they work for it. Now you can argue they can, its an ludicrous statement but you have made it. In reality thats not remotely close to the truth or why dont you prove it by getting semi endgame character on a server you dont play w/o charging on said server before game closes?

    Lets say somebody plays 2 toons and nets roughly 10m/day income/toon. Thats bout what FSP and DUP should land if I`m not mistaken. 600m a month, wow, so easy, right? Now lets see what that 600m gets you. In grand scheme of things it nets you pretty much nothing. You need roughly 10 months of that to get basic R9 gear, which is first step towards endgame gear and just because you have it wont stop literally everybody 1shotting you. Not to mention nobody is actually taking **** geared toons into DUP so your income would actually be drastically lower than used on math here.

    Yes, LoLs business model is working and they do not sell anything, which would give real advantage over non paying customers in game. But I guess this is fake news cause it doesnt fit your view of how paying customers have to have an advantage in order for the game to succeed?

    Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.

    Smart argument. Jadasia"s comments are full of hatred towards f2p players, nothing intelligent said from his/her mouth.
  • the guys above me said what exactly needs to be said.
    @jadasia is just a flamer.. don't even bother reacting to his comments. he is just another "JOE" that we love.
    this is not shaming..
    first of all "THIS IS MMORPG" balance between paying and playing with time should be there.. or else we will experience "EMPTY XNW'S AND NW" well we are already experiencing that anyway lol.. for 30 people participating in nw...... its high alright...
    THIS GAME IS PRETTY BALANCE if you ask me. in terms of gearing to decent r93rd and g17 wep.. its pretty accessible.
    these are the things that cs have advantage off.
    1. war avatar crafting is made for them ... you can't really call this farming if S cards are 0.01 chance.. this is called gambling...charge and spend reward makes this easy.
    2. easily level starchart that they don't really need to do fsj... with just few charge and spend they can easily max aptitude,and levels and even astral energy..
    3. easily refine stuff to max.. charge and spend reward combo.. nothing to explain...easy...

    these 3 are the main advantages of cser.
    its really enough...
    cs'er don't do bh.. cs'er don't do up and dh. they can easily buy stuff with gold and coins they have.
    they can wc like crazy and say pk is boring... coz they have so much free time at this point..
    with nothing to do.. they gear up their alts.. buying stuff HIGHER than normal which a normal farmer can and FASTER than ones who really needed gears anyway..and causes inflation with them buying r9 mats and stuff..
    they got so much coin with nothing to burn them on....there u go. they buy off guardian charms and make them into ruby's and amethyst. causing inflation again..
    rinse repeat... they get more coins each repeat.
    cs'ing is easy......
    doing UP and DH everyday is called DAYJOB ... that's farming..
    @jadasia you say my hardwork is less than your VISA MASTERCARD .... where do you burn your money into if i don't farm UP and DH....

    im not against csing ... its a symbiotic relationship that helps both farmers and cser... so don't put too much hate out there.. game is getting crappier than usual with people like you. this is not shaming...
  • gravewulfgravewulf Posts: 36 Arc User







    jadasia wrote: »
    gravewulf wrote: »
    No, you *don't* get what you pay for, and anyone that says they do, must have a lot of liquidable income to spend here. The fact is, that you get very little in return, for the exorbitant prices they charge for the intellectual property that you basically lease.

    I've played for about ten years, I don't spend a lot, maybe $40 - $100 a month or so, but over time, that has added up, (not to mention about once a year, I purchase a large amount for major upgrades).

    I don't care who you are, or how you spin/justify that, but you're blind, if you think what they charge, and how they charge for stuff, is fair and reasonable. It isn't, period.

    But people pay it. Why? Because things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If you have a problem with the price of things then you don't purchase those things. Problem solved...for you.

    Now you're just being ridiculous, in trying to justify this. I made a point about the prices, period, and now you're spinning it to just hear yourself talk, apparently. If you haven't noticed, you are the minority here. Gratz, you have money to blow on an MMO, happy for you, but to justify costs by saying, "people are willing to pay for it", is like saying car dealers charge what they do because people are willing to pay for it. They pay for it alright, right through the nose. They pay for it, because to them, it's a necessity, I'm quite sure it isn't because they see the stuff, and think it's a reasonable price, and it is nothing less than arrogant to say otherwise. But whatever sir, you're entitled to your opinion. Have fun when it's you with just a few others in game, that can compete with each other. :)
  • jadasiajadasia Posts: 519 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.

    Nobody wants frost babies or pill babies in their nuke squads. Why is that?

    Let me take a wild guess where you are coming from here....you think frost and pill babies suddenly have access to high level game content but the problem is that it's not fair that they lack skills and gear other high level players worked hard to pay for and earn so they should have easy access to all that with a pill too?

    As I stated earlier it's this path to easy which caused great damage to the game. The downfall started when the first anniversary packs started giving out hard to farm content like gear and wines for instances. Destroyed a market and took an incentive away from farming for mats on the open map.

    Next was hyper leveling in frost. Killed the incentive to quest in the open map. It's these quests which built the character and the player's ability to learn how to play that character efficiently.

    We had BM and cleric frost babies trying to do full deltas with no HP and no BB. Insta kicked and we watched them rage. They did nothing to benefit a squad.

    Nobody wanted these unskilled undergeared inexperience morons in their squads no matter what their level was.

    To say that they were a benefit to the game is utter ignorance and insane.

    I'm not against Free to play. I was free to play for several years. I am against any notion that those who pay nothing to pay should be equal to those who pay for the game. It's a for profit business and those who pay are absolutely entitled to out gear and out skill and out do everything non-paying players can have and do. It's the incentive to pay to play and keep the company lights on.

    If you really want equality for all then advocate for a monthly flat rate subscription type MMO where everyone pays the same amount and has access to the same gear and skills, etc.
    gravewulf wrote: »

    Now you're just being ridiculous, in trying to justify this. I made a point about the prices, period, and now you're spinning it to just hear yourself talk, apparently. If you haven't noticed, you are the minority here. Gratz, you have money to blow on an MMO, happy for you, but to justify costs by saying, "people are willing to pay for it", is like saying car dealers charge what they do because people are willing to pay for it. They pay for it alright, right through the nose. They pay for it, because to them, it's a necessity, I'm quite sure it isn't because they see the stuff, and think it's a reasonable price, and it is nothing less than arrogant to say otherwise. But whatever sir, you're entitled to your opinion. Have fun when it's you with just a few others in game, that can compete with each other. :)

    Players set the prices. Too high, they don't buy. To low they sell fast. Some people are willing to pay more for things than others so they get priority to purchase. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

    PS .. I'm stating an opinion based on reality. I'm not posting here to win a popularity contest. If that is how you think you win arguments then go ahead and feel that way. ROTFL
  • tiddybonbontiddybonbon Posts: 9 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    snorts

    It's okay to be wrong, you know.

  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »

    Man, Frost babies, if anything, kept this game alive longer than it should of lasted. It allowed easy access to high level content for new players, instead of having to grind trough old content. And more players is almost always good thing for a game. And most importantly, the ones buying levels were, if they were new players, always paying customers as low level f2p players did not have means to pay for that leveling option. I think this last point pretty much conclusively proves you have no means to actually understand how all of this works and I am pretty done with arguing somebody who cant provide a single interesting/relevant point to the discussion.

    Nobody wants frost babies or pill babies in their nuke squads. Why is that?

    Let me take a wild guess where you are coming from here....you think frost and pill babies suddenly have access to high level game content but the problem is that it's not fair that they lack skills and gear other high level players worked hard to pay for and earn so they should have easy access to all that with a pill too?

    As I stated earlier it's this path to easy which caused great damage to the game. The downfall started when the first anniversary packs started giving out hard to farm content like gear and wines for instances. Destroyed a market and took an incentive away from farming for mats on the open map.

    Next was hyper leveling in frost. Killed the incentive to quest in the open map. It's these quests which built the character and the player's ability to learn how to play that character efficiently.

    We had BM and cleric frost babies trying to do full deltas with no HP and no BB. Insta kicked and we watched them rage. They did nothing to benefit a squad.

    Nobody wanted these unskilled undergeared inexperience morons in their squads no matter what their level was.

    To say that they were a benefit to the game is utter ignorance and insane.

    I'm not against Free to play. I was free to play for several years. I am against any notion that those who pay nothing to pay should be equal to those who pay for the game. It's a for profit business and those who pay are absolutely entitled to out gear and out skill and out do everything non-paying players can have and do. It's the incentive to pay to play and keep the company lights on.

    If you really want equality for all then advocate for a monthly flat rate subscription type MMO where everyone pays the same amount and has access to the same gear and skills, etc.

    They arent wanted in nuke squads because they dont have the gear for them? If they did, they`d be taken, just like anybody else. Nuke squads have quite literally zero requirement to actually knowing how to play this game as its all gear - they are so dumbed down way of doing things its not even funny. Even if you were support class with debuffs/amps, you wouldnt be taken cause everybody and their moms got so many toons that they dont need low geared players to take part of their split. Well short of everybody in squad already running several toons in which case having one less toon to worry bout might be worth giving 10th of the split to some random.

    Now back in days of Frost babies the theoretical & actual endgame, not to mention the "average you dont suck gear" were a lot closer and easier to achieve than nowdays. Did we even have re-awakenings back then? Point being the gear required to be useful to squads was a lot less and easier to achieve back then.

    This game has never been hard for people with somewhat functioning brains. Please tell me what mindlessly grinding some mobs/quests teaches to new players? All they ever did was teach basic solo gameplay content. BHs introduced some basic squad gameplay but kicking newbies for being newbies is some serious elitist ****. Cleric doesnt know they are supposed to BB? Teach them, simple as that. I honestly didnt mind new people, if they had brain as this game was super easy to teach at basic level.

    And like I`ve told you prolly 10 times, F2P are beneficial to this game just because they play it. Just answer me this, will you keep spending on this game when there is nobody to play with? Cause I know I wouldnt but maybe, to some people, just circlejerking with the few ppl left over their pixels is enough.
  • eeepsiloneeepsilon Posts: 293 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »
    [
    eeepsilon wrote: »

    Not really sure why you are so obsessed with entitlement, this is not twitter or some sjw forum… Yeah I get your point: cashers are the ones dumping money and should be above the f2p people.

    {Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}

    But this argument here is way too cringy and wrong in my opinion:





    Now if this was 2015 or before that I would completly agree with you and even applaud you for saying this, but on current year saying that is not even funy as a joke. The developer of this game removed almost everything that a f2p player would use as way to farm/merch/whatever they do in game to gear up, they also removed any need for a casher to get anything from f2p people, they don't even need their coins anymore. Heck, they put barriers on basic gear, daily quests, even last culti is targeting spark kill squads, even tho in that case it is posible for a nab to get it so you can ignore that if you want.

    {Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}

    You claim that people demand everything that others got with effort for free, but do they?

    {Yes, I've seen the threads and posts in the forums}

    I mean correct me if I am wrong but are you defending the way in which this developer handle power creep?

    {You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.

    I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.

    Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}


    Yes maybe the OP is a bit unreasonable and sounds salty, but I don't see him/her asking for free end game stuff.

    {Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}

    I don't think that people who is f2p should be on same ground as p2w whales, but be realistic, not because 6 years ago it was hard to get something like nirvana, it should mean that now have to be even harder, in fact the whole concept of having end game gear to farm outdated garbage is plain idiotic.

    {G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}

    Just ask yourself this: Do you think that a guy that is r9s3+12, g17s5 weapon, NP and lvl 3 atck or def shards. would care if some random no name dude can get his g16 helmet/cape in reasonable amount of time time?

    Do you think that same super OP whale would care if the guy can farm some dungeon and get some coin to progress a bit on the game?

    Would that casher be ofended when the g16 dude manages to get r9 bad refined…? The whale would probably be full g17 or r10 or whatever the name of that new gear that is coming by that time..

    I would completly understand and agree with you if people here was asking for insta free r9 or free NP or some crazy stuff.

    {What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.

    Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}


    I am sorry but I can not white knight this game, it have nothing to do with free stuff, not even balance, the way in which this game has changed is even self destructive for itself. In one of your first post on this thread you mention capitalism, but a Smart capitalist company would never try to depend in a super low number of customers, the moment that they lose those few customers they have to shot down.

    {A smart company caters to paying customers.}

    Also not really related to what you mentioned but the in game economy of pwi is not really capitalist at all, it is more like some sort of socialist dictatorship.

    BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.


    I am not going to counter all your statements 'cause some things are subjective, like when you say that the OP is entitled as example. However I do feel the need to point some things that you are either ignoring or misunderstanding.
    {Because that is what the OP is implying. Upset that cash shoppers are going to extend their advantage over the F2P people...And they should. It is all about entitlement. I read through so many threads in the past year about people complaining about not having what others worked hard and paid for to get.}
    As I said before, not really going to argue this one, cause I am not the OP, nor can I read his/her mind. Still can give the benefit of the doubt. Or maybe you are correct on this one, but what you or me think of the OP is nothing more than conjetures.
    {Maybe it actually is because PWI wants paying customers and the F2P aspect is morphing into the trial version of the game. Then again there are still many F2P people achieving end game status are are still able to run a catshop.}
    Now here you are just trying to justify both the developer and Publisher nonsense. You may try to put it in whatever way you want, but as I say before, this game is not b2p, neither is subscription based. This game had pw2 mechanics and advantage for their cashers since years ago. And again there never really was too much of a problem. People wanted to pay for stuff to be OP or just to skip content due lack of time or other reasons, they could. People wanted to farm and merch a lot to get good gear and in many cases they could, it was just a more reasonable long path, but still posible and reasonable. Nowadays that is not the case.
    {You call it power creep, I call it a dynamically expanding game. Wanna know what was funny today? Watching people complain that they can't auto culti on the vitae mobs even with their r9rrr +12 jaded gears and etc.
    I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.
    Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?}
    You may call it whatever you want, but trying to deny the existence of Power creep in any sort of MMO rpg is like someone trying to deny the sun's existence just 'cause they don't like it, or because it does not validate their opinion.

    How do other games handle power creep?
    They make old content either more affordable to new and returning players or at least leave it untouched so said people can eventually catch up.
    How does this dev handle the power creep?
    They remove obsolete garbage gear like nirvy capes and Helms from forges, and put it behind a pay wall or in a dungeon where most of the people that need said gear will not be able to go.
    They remove basic stuff from quest and put it on dungeons or behind pay walls on.
    Then you proceed in that same reply to make fun of people QQing about not being able to culti on r9s3+12 JOSD, still people trying to vitae culti on maxed gear are usually cashers, you are pretty much contradicting yourself there.
    Then this...
    I can't wait until we get the next incarnation of TT for the G17 gears.
    Oh wait! Isn't G17 gears 100% in game farmed etc? Just like the Morai PvE gear was a few years back?
    G17 gear is indeed technically posible to get by farming it, however you need to be OP or billionare to get in a reasonable amount of time, the g17 gear is part of our current end game gear, so I see no problem in being hard to get
    I don't really see what you are trying to imply there.
    You either misread what I said before or are just ignoring it all along.
    {Maybe not free but there is a lot implied in that salty original post, isn't there?}
    Again, not gonna argue there, since I cant read the person's mind.
    {G17 gear is not outdated and one has to farm it to get it.}
    Again, you either misunderstood what I said there or are intentionally ignoring what I said. You are making it sound as if I was asking for easy g17.
    Never did I say that whe should get easy current end game gear.
    What I was saying there is that obsolete gear that can help a new or returning player to progress SHOULD NOT be put behind nonsensical paywalls and dungeons that are our current end game. That does not help the f2p player, nor does it help pwe or the cashers. The less people playing, less interaction and fun the whales have and less potential new spenders pwe can get. You may try to justify that as much as you want, but that is not smart, that is just the dev and Publisher shoting their own feet.
    {What did all the r9rr +12 jaded OP people have before they were all r9rr +12 jaded OP people? They had to progress to where they are now. G16 is still farmable as it all TT gear and all Lunar gear.
    Again F2P people need to play the game with others at their own level of gear and etc.}

    Again you are even ignoring facts now to try to justify your statements.
    Many r9+12 jaded people just power level on Frost at the time, dumped a ton of money in the game and got all their end game stuff with real money and there is nothing wrong with that. They compensate the lack of in game effort with real money which is fine in my opinion.
    However you are expecting that a person who is f2p to gear and progress in a game in which pretty much all ways of farming and market are broken, in which even obsolete stuff is purposely removed to make f2p people rage quit.
    You then bring tt, lunar and g16 as example to validate what you are saying.
    Yes tt and lunar are still posible but you need to turn it into nirvana to make g16... And I think you already know what they did with that :D
    {A smart company caters to paying customers.}

    This is true, however everyone knows why most of whales dump thousands of $$$ on a f2p outdated mmo. If you remove the whale's entertainment, you remove their reason to spend money.
    At the end of the day is not even about to be fair with f2p is about giving them a reasonable goal so at least they have a sense of achievement. If a guy make a character on this game and see that everything is almost impossible to achieve, they just quit.
    On the other hand if that same person see that his effort actually rewards him, he Will keep playing, that person may even end up spending real money to speed up things or to compete with the whales. Even if that person does not spend, he still is entertaiment for the whales that just want easy wins.

    BS. The players set the prices of items they buy in the game. Things are worth what others are willing to pay for them. I laugh every time someone calls a seller greedy for selling an item they want to someone else for a higher price...like gold.

    This is an alf correct and alf wrong statement.


    While is true that many of the prices are indeed regulated by players, a lot of how the in game economy works nowadays is actually controlled by the dev and publisher. The developer has repeatedly removed ways in which f2p people can get in game currency, they removed or turn stuff which would allow players to be part of the economy useless, while buffing packs and keys. The publisher at same time is the one that controls how the sales works, if you add to that the fact that the publisher seems to be unable to combat bots and people abusing stuff, you are left with a in game economy that is broken and that is nothing more than a bunch of whales opening keys/packs like crazy and spending billions that come from that.

    Also the whole demand / supply argument is not really a valid justification. While is true that supply and demand are part of any economic system, this does not remove said system from a broken economy. Take any country in crisis, even one with hyper inflation, not 'cause there is a bunch of people that would pay 50 millions for a bag of chips would that mean that is the correct price. In fact the more that people is willing to pay for garbage, the more broken that the economy is.

    Not because all cashers on pwi are drawning on billions of coins would that mean that everything is fine, after all the more money they have, less value that money hold.

    Take Venezuela as example, in that country there are people who literally have bags of money, so by logic one could say that they are rich, yet they can not even buy some basic stuff, not only 'cause there is almost nothing to buy, but also 'cause their money is devaluated.
    Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that PWI is on same state, but when a publisher and developer mess with the in game economy just 'cause greed or to yolo, you get a dead game with just a bunch of whales opening loot boxes all day and eventually quiting due being bored.


    Now to be honest, I don't see reasonable to ask the developer to fix this game, specially considering that as many other mmos is too dependent on packs/keys, and lot of nations are starting to debate that, so there is not much future for that business model anymore.


    I Agree with @monkiimk1

    PWE most likely trying to drain their whales either before they get bored or before the company become unable to use the lootbox business model.


  • jadasiajadasia Posts: 519 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    They arent wanted in nuke squads because they dont have the gear for them? If they did, they`d be taken, just like anybody else. Nuke squads have quite literally zero requirement to actually knowing how to play this game as its all gear - they are so dumbed down way of doing things its not even funny. Even if you were support class with debuffs/amps, you wouldnt be taken cause everybody and their moms got so many toons that they dont need low geared players to take part of their split. Well short of everybody in squad already running several toons in which case having one less toon to worry bout might be worth giving 10th of the split to some random.

    Now back in days of Frost babies the theoretical & actual endgame, not to mention the "average you dont suck gear" were a lot closer and easier to achieve than nowdays. Did we even have re-awakenings back then? Point being the gear required to be useful to squads was a lot less and easier to achieve back then.

    This game has never been hard for people with somewhat functioning brains. Please tell me what mindlessly grinding some mobs/quests teaches to new players? All they ever did was teach basic solo gameplay content. BHs introduced some basic squad gameplay but kicking newbies for being newbies is some serious elitist ****. Cleric doesnt know they are supposed to BB? Teach them, simple as that. I honestly didnt mind new people, if they had brain as this game was super easy to teach at basic level.

    And like I`ve told you prolly 10 times, F2P are beneficial to this game just because they play it. Just answer me this, will you keep spending on this game when there is nobody to play with? Cause I know I wouldnt but maybe, to some people, just circlejerking with the few ppl left over their pixels is enough.

    As I already mentioned Frost and Pill babies weren't wanted in non-nuke squads either. I already stated why nobody wants undergeared and unskilled characters in squads. When you ask a BM to HF or an EP to BB and they respond with "what's that" then you'll figure out what I'm talking about.

    They are completely worthless toons who wanted the easy way. Funny how people who get the easy way feel entitled to get everything the easy way.

    The game population diminished the moment PW devs altered course and started removing incentive for players to build their characters off of PvE content included on the world map.

    Cash shop should have offered items to enhance the character only. Not eliminate the need to quest to end game.

    The moment the first Anniversary pack debuted gold went from 120K per to 500K per then shortly to 1 mil. Been spiraling that way every since.

    End game people at my character's level don't really give 2 cents about the F2P people unless they are near the same level. I help them out in the game from time to time but really they do nothing for us. They're like ants. If they removed all F2P people from the game and left just the cashers with their end game it wouldn't bee much different to me than it is now realistically. Sure, fewer people but will not change my game play at all.

    F2P people should focus on level 1 to 95. The game environment provides everything they need to play at that level. I just got a free dreamchaser pack in my mail this morning for hell's sake.
  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    jadasia wrote: »

    They arent wanted in nuke squads because they dont have the gear for them? If they did, they`d be taken, just like anybody else. Nuke squads have quite literally zero requirement to actually knowing how to play this game as its all gear - they are so dumbed down way of doing things its not even funny. Even if you were support class with debuffs/amps, you wouldnt be taken cause everybody and their moms got so many toons that they dont need low geared players to take part of their split. Well short of everybody in squad already running several toons in which case having one less toon to worry bout might be worth giving 10th of the split to some random.

    Now back in days of Frost babies the theoretical & actual endgame, not to mention the "average you dont suck gear" were a lot closer and easier to achieve than nowdays. Did we even have re-awakenings back then? Point being the gear required to be useful to squads was a lot less and easier to achieve back then.

    This game has never been hard for people with somewhat functioning brains. Please tell me what mindlessly grinding some mobs/quests teaches to new players? All they ever did was teach basic solo gameplay content. BHs introduced some basic squad gameplay but kicking newbies for being newbies is some serious elitist ****. Cleric doesnt know they are supposed to BB? Teach them, simple as that. I honestly didnt mind new people, if they had brain as this game was super easy to teach at basic level.

    And like I`ve told you prolly 10 times, F2P are beneficial to this game just because they play it. Just answer me this, will you keep spending on this game when there is nobody to play with? Cause I know I wouldnt but maybe, to some people, just circlejerking with the few ppl left over their pixels is enough.

    As I already mentioned Frost and Pill babies weren't wanted in non-nuke squads either. I already stated why nobody wants undergeared and unskilled characters in squads. When you ask a BM to HF or an EP to BB and they respond with "what's that" then you'll figure out what I'm talking about.

    They are completely worthless toons who wanted the easy way. Funny how people who get the easy way feel entitled to get everything the easy way.

    The game population diminished the moment PW devs altered course and started removing incentive for players to build their characters off of PvE content included on the world map.

    Cash shop should have offered items to enhance the character only. Not eliminate the need to quest to end game.

    The moment the first Anniversary pack debuted gold went from 120K per to 500K per then shortly to 1 mil. Been spiraling that way every since.

    End game people at my character's level don't really give 2 cents about the F2P people unless they are near the same level. I help them out in the game from time to time but really they do nothing for us. They're like ants. If they removed all F2P people from the game and left just the cashers with their end game it wouldn't bee much different to me than it is now realistically. Sure, fewer people but will not change my game play at all.

    F2P people should focus on level 1 to 95. The game environment provides everything they need to play at that level. I just got a free dreamchaser pack in my mail this morning for hell's sake.

    I know plenty of ppl who were Frost babies, who did turn out to be decent players with very little guidance. You didnt know anything bout the game before you started playing either and judging ppl for lack of knowledge with little play time is plain idiotic. Would you have known what BB abbreviation means if you werent told? Cause I know I wouldnt when it has nothing to do with the name of the skill. The times I`ve encountered ppl who were truly hopeless were few and rare, most times we could still get trough instances with them, it just took bit more effort on my part.

    And gold was 200k prior to anni packs as chests of coins and hammers existed before them and those chests were plentiful. Every single massive spike in gold prices was result of management of this game by publisher. We actually hit 4m gold at some point, then they took out DQ coin value, which started dropping gold prices and we were ~3m when they did something(Cant actually remember what) to promote boutique, which in turn got us back to 4m+ gold prices that never dropped. It was near 4m for a long time though, then came keys with foils and gold prices more than doubled.

    So you are happy playing a game, where top factions on their servers struggle to field 60 for xTW? Cause thats where we are going fast with losing players left and right. What you cant seem to comprehend is, nobody wants to be at the bottom of the food chain. When the bottom leaves and makes ppl higher up the food chain the new bottom, they will do the same in a chain reaction if and when they dont have means to climb up the food chain. And if there is no ppl to play with, there is no reason to spend either, unless, like I said earlier, you are satisfied circlejerking over pixels with the few ppl left. If thats the case, internet is full of ****, which prolly does the thing better.

    You considering F2P portion of this game some level 1-95 demo is likely the dumbest thing I read on these forums this year. This includes all the dumb crying Joe posts weekly about rng.
  • yoabu#2667 yoabu Posts: 49 Arc User
    The P2W vs F2P argument is a bit like what I witnessed in an MMO called Rift. The game has instanced content referred to as "raids". A bit of organisation and dedication is required to enjoy it - the optimal way would be to join a raiding guild, adhere to a raiding schedule, work diligently on your character and so on and so forth. A group of people who didn't want to / couldn't put in the same effort wanted access to the same content and its rewards. They would cry and **** and whinge until they got their way. The game is pretty much dead now.

    What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players. People look at that the NP g17 +3 squads can do and want to be like them. The truth is - they will never be like them. Period. Not ever. There is plenty of content before NP and +3 shards to enjoy. g15 squads can handle FSP, UCH and other stuff. Instances have various modes for a reason. Somebody 5-manning DDH doesn't mean I should be able to even finish it in a full group. There is normal DH to enjoy. There are B-Card Sets and 2/3/4-piece A-Card Sets for a reason.
  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    The P2W vs F2P argument is a bit like what I witnessed in an MMO called Rift. The game has instanced content referred to as "raids". A bit of organisation and dedication is required to enjoy it - the optimal way would be to join a raiding guild, adhere to a raiding schedule, work diligently on your character and so on and so forth. A group of people who didn't want to / couldn't put in the same effort wanted access to the same content and its rewards. They would cry and **** and whinge until they got their way. The game is pretty much dead now.

    What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players. People look at that the NP g17 +3 squads can do and want to be like them. The truth is - they will never be like them. Period. Not ever. There is plenty of content before NP and +3 shards to enjoy. g15 squads can handle FSP, UCH and other stuff. Instances have various modes for a reason. Somebody 5-manning DDH doesn't mean I should be able to even finish it in a full group. There is normal DH to enjoy. There are B-Card Sets and 2/3/4-piece A-Card Sets for a reason.

    I dont understnad how Rift didnt do what WoW and FF14 do for example. Make different tiers of the same raids - Easy version for ppl who dont have motivation/time/means to really raid and then couple harder ones for players who can handle a real challenge.

    Nobody is asking NP, +3 shards, etc. The problem with PWI and powercreep is the fact this game is very PvP heavy. PvE is nothing but means to gear up and the endgame content, all of it, revolves around PvP. I dont know what kind of plebs you play with if you think 5 manning DDH is hard. I been part of squads, where we 4 manned JDH meching it, not spark killing, meching it. Pretty sure they 3 manned it once when I wasnt around too. To me, Sastasha(First dungeon on FF14) is more interesting/challenging than DDH. And honestly, DH as an instance is the most interesting PvE instance PWI has to offer.
  • yoabu#2667 yoabu Posts: 49 Arc User
    @hurrdurrurr Rift did that. It wasn't enough. The easier tiers didn't award the same kind of gear as the harder tiers. And so people whinged and moaned. They caved in. And the raiders left in droves. The fact is - people will always whinge and moan.

    Congratz on 4-manning DDH. I don't know what "meching" is, though.

    As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure how you managed to miss this sentence:
    What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players.


  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @hurrdurrurr Rift did that. It wasn't enough. The easier tiers didn't award the same kind of gear as the harder tiers. And so people whinged and moaned. They caved in. And the raiders left in droves. The fact is - people will always whinge and moan.

    Congratz on 4-manning DDH. I don't know what "meching" is, though.

    As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure how you managed to miss this sentence:
    What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players.


    Not DDH but JDH. And meching as in killing the boss w/o spark killing it aka not simply gear smashing. Sure, you need gear to do that with only 4 ppl playing.

    My point regarding the tangent I went on, this game isnt your classic MMORPG where PvE can be endgame too. Cause realistically there is nothing in PvE content, which I would consider achievement clearing. Nor does any PvE content alone give the best gear available either - The gear is actually behind pay walls. G17 weps are bit of an exception even if the hardest mats to farm are also in the rng boxes. They should, at this point in time, just release JUP, which would give quest reward of bound skull shard(s). This wouldnt affect market much but it would make it farming G17 weps a realistic option. But thats not really what this thread is bout.

    With PvP being the endgame content, powercreep becomes a major issue. With how hard its to achieve gear nowdays, which would be competitive in PvP setting, lot of ppl, instead of gearing up, just give up. And we lose players, some who would potentially put some money into the game too.

    In MMORPG where you could find achievements for clearing PvE content, your argument would be a fine one, just because something exists doesnt mean you should have access to it. But this is PvP oriented game, where you gain achievements by fighting other players for them. With how hard its to gear up to reasonable level, PvP content is simply out of reach for a lot of ppl so they quit and honestly with how dead servers start to be, losing players is pretty bad thing for everybody.

    Honestly, I`m pretty high in the ladder of gear and I wouldnt personally give a flying **** if PWE started giving away free R9 sets. They wont, I`m not asking they would but I wouldnt care. All it would give me is give more ppl to play with and while that gear is set to 700+ gold on sales. They would still need refines, cards, start chart, boundary levels, passives and so on to actually get on my gear power level. And thats a lot of time/money to get there.
  • The P2W vs F2P argument is a bit like what I witnessed in an MMO called Rift. The game has instanced content referred to as "raids". A bit of organisation and dedication is required to enjoy it - the optimal way would be to join a raiding guild, adhere to a raiding schedule, work diligently on your character and so on and so forth. A group of people who didn't want to / couldn't put in the same effort wanted access to the same content and its rewards. They would cry and **** and whinge until they got their way. The game is pretty much dead now.

    What I'm getting at - perhaps it's OK that some content is not accessible to some players. People look at that the NP g17 +3 squads can do and want to be like them. The truth is - they will never be like them. Period. Not ever. There is plenty of content before NP and +3 shards to enjoy. g15 squads can handle FSP, UCH and other stuff. Instances have various modes for a reason. Somebody 5-manning DDH doesn't mean I should be able to even finish it in a full group. There is normal DH to enjoy. There are B-Card Sets and 2/3/4-piece A-Card Sets for a reason.

    This troll lmao rift that rift this he got no clue about the game or its content or why the population when down holy f... this trolls are getting out of hand they are making stories up and are spreading lies all just to justified there spending in game lmao who gave a f... pwi is p2w **** all is sk in pve and pvp i don't even want to talk we can see example like genessia who spend who knows how much soloing factions,,,, Now let me explain about rift the game lose population for 4 reasons and not because the game is bad first the raids are to hard core players need up to 6-8 hours daily raid progression to achieve the first in world since this noob don;t even knew about the faction Trinidi or Corlionis who ware hard core this ware n1 guilds in north America who every one was trying there hardes to enter since then you can see content you ware not posible to achieve with normal guild since they only raidet 1-2 times per week for 2-3 hours yet this moron says every one was able to achive dear lord ....... TOOK CORLIONIS FUKING 4 MONTHS OF DAILY 6 HOURS RAID TO GET USA NORTH FIRST ON THE HAMMERKNELL FORTRESS AND IM NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT HARD MODE BUT YEAH YOU GOT NO CLUE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT FKING TROLL ..... any ways sec reason why game lose population was the new expansion they made raid weapons that we farm from raids and sweet and bleed for put in to quest that every one can do as long as you are devoted farmer ... so people revolted against it since those weapons ware the difference between hard core raiders and casuals who ware more there for the lore but now every one was the same so the community did not like it .... 3th reason why rift decline was the debacle they did with Nightmare TIdes tt 3 raid release where the instance was all broken and they ware trying to push that on to us you FK don't even know how the community was fighting with Trions ( oh i forgot this is pwi where players take dicks in there **** with pleasure my bad ) how a the world n1 guild Apoteosys humiliate the company that try to so hard to make rift in to p2w **** but it end it fail YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY WORK TO TOGETHER AND SAY FK THIS GAME WE DONT GONNA PLAY YOU"RE **** TILL YOU FIX STUFF AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPEN ALL THE HARD CORE RAIDERS PVP PLAYERS ROLE PLAYERS ALL UNITE AND LEFT ONLY SOME RANDOM PLAYERS WHO DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON OR JUST DONT CARE WARE LEFT ITS WHY RIFT NOW DONT EVEN HAVE 10 % OF ITS OLD POPULATION AND USED TO HAVE 600 000 PLAYERS WHICH PWI NEVER GONNA OR EVER ACHIEVE ..... there are more reason to name but i don't want to bother with this noob troll who makes alts just to justifie his spending in game and says its not gear its skills lmao what i type here was to defend a memory of a game that it truly was the best ever from pvp to pve to community here.... here is a link if you want to learn more and maybe one day but its already to late pwi players gonna grow balls and stand up to pwi ahhh what a funny joke i know i'm funny ^_^



    https://www.reddit.com/r/Rift/comments/3z3bbb/apotheosys_says_goodbye/





    sad but its how companies suicide and close good games .......








  • yoabu#2667 yoabu Posts: 49 Arc User
    @hurrdurrurr Indeed, PvP is the endgame content in PWI, just like raiding was in Rift. Raiders in Rift had to dedicate a lot of time and effort (and have at least a modicum of hand-to-eye coordination) to enjoy the best rewards (at least until Trion ruined it). Top PvPers in PWI have to dedicate an inordinate amount of time and/or money to achieve comparable results.

    People like comparing dicks. I'll repeat, though - most will never, ever be close to those big cashers. Not ever. PWI may make g16 more accessible, may make farming more profitable, may throw r9 at everybody and 99% will still die in one-shot and they will be as upset as they are in their g15. Sure, they will have easier access to UP or whatever, but when when they go to do engame, they will still spend most of the time clicking the "Return to town" button.

    I appreciate that you may not consider anything PvE-related an achievement, when squads can 4-man JDH, probably the hardest instance in the game. I'd say finishing a Trophy Mode in FB99 with a rainbow TT90+3/4 squad or completing full WS in TT99 can be quite the achievement. People (in general), will rather compare themselves to Genesesia and cry P2W, though.

    It's a broader notion than something as trivial as enjoying a game, but if people stop comparing themselves to others and start comparing themselves to who they were the day before, they might enjoy it a little more :)

    @nonameak47#2389 But... how am I a troll... you literally just confirmed what I wrote...

    Trion alienated PvPers by removing PvP-exclusive gear, because "casuals" cried that they don't have access to that content. They alienated raiders by giving out raid-quality rewards and making raids trivial, because "casuals" cried that they don't have access to that content.

    The principle is the same - Trion tried to make all content accessible to everybody and killed the game in the process.

    BTW - my guild beat Coriolis to the punch a couple of times ;) They probably got the best of us more often, though.
  • hurrdurrurrhurrdurrurr Posts: 54 Arc User
    @hurrdurrurr Indeed, PvP is the endgame content in PWI, just like raiding was in Rift. Raiders in Rift had to dedicate a lot of time and effort (and have at least a modicum of hand-to-eye coordination) to enjoy the best rewards (at least until Trion ruined it). Top PvPers in PWI have to dedicate an inordinate amount of time and/or money to achieve comparable results.

    People like comparing dicks. I'll repeat, though - most will never, ever be close to those big cashers. Not ever. PWI may make g16 more accessible, may make farming more profitable, may throw r9 at everybody and 99% will still die in one-shot and they will be as upset as they are in their g15. Sure, they will have easier access to UP or whatever, but when when they go to do engame, they will still spend most of the time clicking the "Return to town" button.

    I appreciate that you may not consider anything PvE-related an achievement, when squads can 4-man JDH, probably the hardest instance in the game. I'd say finishing a Trophy Mode in FB99 with a rainbow TT90+3/4 squad or completing full WS in TT99 can be quite the achievement. People (in general), will rather compare themselves to Genesesia and cry P2W, though.

    It's a broader notion than something as trivial as enjoying a game, but if people stop comparing themselves to others and start comparing themselves to who they were the day before, they might enjoy it a little more :)

    In a more classic MMORPG, lot of things you said would make sense. But this isnt not exactly classic MMORPG in the sense its endgame is quite exclusively PvP related. The powercreep is on levels where gear trumps basically everything. Some classes can get away with less gear and some need more to be effective but generally even full +12, G13 shards, 20 aptitude and non NP cards dont really stand a chance to players geared like Genesisia(?) who was mentioned in this thread. Unless its melee LA class against something they eat for breakfast. And even the +12, G13 shards, 20 aptitude with a decent roll on chart is gonna cost you more than a new car. Let alone what some ppl are sporting in.

    The prices on this game are ludicrous and they alienate a lot of ppl. Back in the good old days you could actually spend time to get where the whales were if you knew what you were doing. But nowdays with developer nerfing farming and making older gear harder to come by it really isnt possible. Nobody starting today will get "PvP ready" before this title closes w/o spending money, a lot of it.

    This leads to the main point I have tried to make in numerous posts. Sooner or later whales get bored playing by themselves and this title will be closed. Already some private server(s) offer better PvP experience than smaller official server(s).Daily mass PvP, PvP events and large scale TWs. If and when private servers beat official servers on their main selling point, which, lets face it, is Mass PvP in some for or another, official servers are in deep ****.

    I dont really have any easy solutions on fixing things that plague official servers but putting more stuff behind pay wall really isnt the solution for them.
  • wettstylewettstyle Posts: 233 Arc User
    If ya do not like where the game is or has been going, you know what you should do...If you want to compete with those that spend alot of money to feel entitled and better then the ants...and dont have the money or years of farming to pvp then go private, you can pvp for free and not hang with entitled people who spend all that cash to feel better then others, most of the friendly people have been pushed out.
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