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Returning BM - why do people keep saying that sage is the better choice now?

rawrtigerrawrrawrtigerrawr Posts: 10 Arc User
It's been a few years since I played this game properly (I stopped around the time the Earthguard were introduced) and, thanks to kind help of support, I managed to recover my account and return to my poor ole BM. I've been reading up on all the changes - mostly Neverfall skills update. Back in the day, if a BM went Sage, they were considered, uhm, "unconventional". Better Roar, Drake Bash, higher potential defences with Bell and Magic Marrow, longer HF - all of that gave the edge to the Demon culti. Now I understand that some of these changes are gone, but Roar and Bell+Marrow still seem to be giving Demon BM a slight advantage. Am I wrong in that? Or did the meta change so significantly that these advantages are not that valuable anymore?

Comments

  • saxrollsaxroll Posts: 1,190 Arc User
    I`d say the gap closed between paths but imo demon is still better. I happened to be listening to a convo last night regarding sage vs demon for BM and they felt strongly demon to be superior choice. I guess I should ask, why do ppl think sage to be superior?
    BlackList vs Frenzied 3/17

  • dingo488dingo488 Posts: 924 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    I guess as one of the few sage BMs I'll report in n give my thoughts \o

    When I decide my build I completely focus on larger scale PvP. I think PvE is too easy to put a special build focus on it, and 1v1 PvP is too lineair and simple to really catch my interrest. I'll only address the topic with that in mind.

    While I agree that for a while (I don't think this is the case anymore) demon BMs had the ''stronger'' skills, I think it's wrong to say that this also made demon BM itself stronger. In a perfect and prepared scenario having the stronger skills obviously makes you stronger, there are no restrictions, but these scenario's only exist in PvE and in 1v1s. In mass PvP you're very rarely in a perfect and prepared scenario, it isn't as much about the strength of your abilities as it is about the availability of them. The kit that's provided to sage BMs puts a high focus on this availability while trading off some of it's strength.

    The glyphs have merged a lot of BM abilities so there's no point really going over those. The only one that might be worth addressing is Heaven's Flame. In the past a lot of BMs put a lot of value in the extra 3 seconds demon HF provided, so it's possible they will now still choose to keep the 9 second HF over ''downgrading'' it to a 8 second HF. To me those extra 3 seconds had next to no value. The strength of HF (in PvP) is entirely loaded in the first few seconds, every second after the first becomes significantly less valuable to the point where if your target hasn't died in the first 6 seconds, it's pretty much certain not to die in 9 either. PvP is interactive, your target isn't afk and won't allow you to get away with such long debuffs without taking any action against it.

    As for the skills that still have their seperate versions... Dragon Rising (which will be combined next patch) is a skill that's definitely better in the demon version. While you can make an argument that single target lock down isn't very good in mass PvP, and spending an unreasonable amount of time focussing 1 target is terribly inefficient, 1.5s extra Paralyse is still pretty nice. That doens't mean that the Sage version is just straight up bad with a 35% chance to cost no chi. You basically get every third bash for free (on average ofc) which means you have more chi to spend on other big skills (or just more bashes). Having a better bash but not enough chi to continuously use it isn't all that great. If you're demon and you can't spam bash on cooldown, you'd generally be better off being sage. (Demon = 25% more duration, Sage = 50% more availability)

    Roar of the Pride is a bit iffy and you can make an argument to go either way. The thing that gets brought up the most is probably the worst argument to make though, which is that Sage Roar can miss while demon cant. Not only is it very uncommon for Sage Roar to miss, in mass PvP the general goal is a stun a larger group of people, and while you might miss 1 person, you won't miss the rest. Now with the Primal versions of Roar they added a disarm to the skill, and while Sage Roar can miss, it will always disarm your target, even if there's no stun. Which is effectively the same thing against a lot of classes. I think the argument that demon Roar has a 1 second lower cooldown is better, but the fact it's never brought up makes it obvious... removing 1 second off a 15-second cooldown isn't that big of a deal. Sage Roar has it's benefits elsewhere, the skill costs 20 chi instead of 35. Which means a Sage BM can Roar twice for pretty much the same chi is a single Roar from a demon BM. Not only that but it synergizes very well with Ferocious Leap (which generates 20 chi) so that you can go from 0 chi to being able to Roar a group with only 1 skill that actually applies relevant pressure aswell. (Opposed to Star Smite which applies 0 relevant pressure)

    Bell + Marrows is another argument that was very relevant in the past, but has lost almost all of that with the Primal updates. This was the update that moved me off demon onto sage. In the past using Magic Marrow as a Sage BM was suicide, if you cast a debuff on yourself that reduces your base p.def by 120% then you're extremely vulnerable to getting further debuffed and annihilated. The Absolute Virtue passive permanently gives you a buff (that can't be removed) that increases your base pdef/mdef by 80%. What this means is that debuffs (and your Marrows) do not touch that 80% you gained. It only touches the base pdef/mdef. And therefore it's no longer dangerous to use Sage Magic Marrow since the % of Physical Defense that can actually be altered is extremely low and so removing 120% doesn't matter that much. Any existing argument that's still relevant regarding defenses is very minor. If Demon Bell's additional proc is active then I believe it'll push demon BMs to be very slightly more tanky to physical damage (Sage will always be more tanky to magic dmg), however this requires them to spam bell while in combat, which is not good. With the current glyphs you get very heavily rewarded for attacking people (There's so much chi on your attack skills now), this also means that if you're in combat and you're not attacking people, you're missing out on a very big portion of that reward. Which is what spamming Demon Bell to keep the proc active is.

    Passives need to be mentioned too, and this kind of goes for every class. In my opinion being demon sucks now on any class that doesn't have a very clear favor towards being demon (Demon Ironwood for example). And as all these skills are getting a combined Neverfall version all the classes are losing this Demon vs Sage identity. Demon passives are all centered around Crit %. And this game is currently filled with buffs that counter crits. Inkdragon Blood reduces Crit dmg by 20%, Primals passives reduce Crit dmg by 20%, DB buffs reduce crit dmg by 45%, and all of these buffs are very commonly active on every single person in mass PvP. While on first glance these buffs don't look like that big of a deal, these buffs all stack together lineairly to combine to a 85% crit damage reduction, which means crits are almost no different from regular hits. This makes Sage passives clearly better, they just make your regular hits (and also your crits) stronger.

    Mo Zun's Taunt vs Master Li's Technique is not that interresting to touch on, they both have their perks, Mo Zun's Taunt is stronger but Master Li's Technique is usable out of combat, and will always give you the maximum, where as Mo Zun's Taunt can always whif and reduce less chi than intended (simply because your target didn't have that much chi). Personally I think the fact you can use Master Li's Technique out of combat makes it a lot better than it's counterpart.

    I think that covers the major skills, I don't know if I really missed anything.
    Sage Diamond Sutra is obvious a lot better (20% chance to heal 50% of your max hp extra, I think Demon Diamond Sutra is hardly even worth using. This is mostly because everyone's HP is so high now, and the flat healing part of the skill is completely obsolete, but a 50% heal is huge.
    Star Smite you can favor either way, Demon decreases evasion which is pretty nice if you plan to afk on that target, Sage interrupts which is something you need to learn to use properly and it can be really good.
    Sage triple spark is obviously better, not like you'd get to use it very often.
    The Leaps benefit a lot from having the extra chi that Sage provides you, so while the skill itself doesn't upgrade, it fits a lot better in the Sage kit than it does in the Demon kit.


    Played Demon before the Primal World came out, but ever since I played Sage I've felt so spoiled by how much chi I have available that I would never consider being Demon again. I've tried playing a Demon BM with much higher gear than my Sage BM a few times after I became Sage but it just feels bad to not have the freedom to use the skills you want to use to the point where I literally felt like the additional gear wasn't even worth having if I had to be Demon. Granted the Glyph update helped a bit with that, I just don't think it was enough. I'm very curious to see which Demon BMs are going to get the Glyphed version of Dragon Rising next expansion, or which BMs will still stay Demon in general.


    IGN: Madskillz
  • e1fingere1finger Posts: 43 Arc User
    In my opinion being a pure BM (meaning i started as a BM and never rolled an alt, and stuck to the class thru thick and thin) I no longer see a point to switching over to a Sage Bm. The gain of being demon now so out weighs being Sage.

    Before NF skills yes there was a few reasons to consider sage such as Chi return,more raw damage, Highland Cleave and Sage Oceans edge.

    A demon Bm has no reason to fall short of chi with skills such as Star smite, Spirit chaser and certain Glyph set ups for chi return. Demon Star smites chi return and decrease evasion is OP. Bms know we got an accuracy issue specially against the dex class, its the near perfect set up for Rising. New Heavens Flame gives alot of chi return and 9 sec is still better then 6 sec, 8 sec for new NF version . Hell can any bm now adays even do enough in 6 sec?. We can gain more DD period from certain Glyph set up. And now we get sage effect on Oceans edge too. Demon Bell still helps push your defense in a more comfortable spot for them 10 seconds and regardless of the spam of it, It gives you some chi while doing so, good for leap use.Then there's still Dragon Rising. Sage - 35% chance to consume No Sparks? I rather bank on the 7.5 sec effect nuff said. I think the only sage skill thats still wanted is Hillborn.

    Now even if someone was to point out the the difference in cultivation sparks...like how often do ppl even see a BM triple sparking in Pvp? Almost never .
    Diamond Sutra...Better heals over increase crit rate. I like 2 for 1 use lol some healing and crit rate.

    Yes theres all this crit damage reduction in the game now. But Crit damage is still more then normal damage. And all Bms know that our damage is all over the place from low to high in what feels like any given moment due to the big gap in our phy attacks. And again Glyph set up can assist in increasing damage delt. Valkyrie Might even tho the long CD of it , i shouldnt need to say more its Op.

    What i feel is still thee only prob with BM's is how we gotta put so much dex just so ppl dont think we blind players lol.

    This is just my own opinion. Please dont take anything i said personal or assume im bashing playin Sage Bm
    Its just that really comparing endgame Bms, i no longer see any reason good enough to switch to Sage anymore.
  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    Since I don't care for Mass-PvP at all and am a nearly pure 1v1 player it is quite obvious that Demon is by FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR!!!! the astronomically better choice.

    IF Sage BMs fight against Duskblades, archer, sins or even just HA or any endgame caster..they are in to miss loads of hits. Despite my BM being at nearly 10k accu, I still sometimes miss hits on even caster WITH the star smite debuff on. I know, I know, I am the unluckiest **** in the entire game and yes, I have seen full STR sage BMs hit 6+ times in a row on Sins (which shouldnt be possible..the chances..insane) but the fact is that I normally hit all my stuff when it should. How some 2k accu BMs are able to hit anything at all is beyond me, seriously. I tell you guys, when you know someone would potentially die and Dragon Rising misses...dude that sucks. In general I prefer more reliable/longer CC over everything else.

    Imho a sage BM doesnt even need to try to 1v1 because it's mostly pointless anyways (unless ofc massive luck is at play). I mean, if you wanna degrade yourself to a Tank/AOE-Stun/HF bot for pure Mass-PvP, go ahead. But expect to be infuriated by constant misses and failures of every other skill you could possibly use.

    One suggestion I can most definitely give to any BM: Go for 300 Dex. Even as a Sage BM. Anything else you will just regret if you pay attention to detail. If your average luck is anything like mine you will not be able to hit anything with just 60 dex, AT ALL.

  • dingo488dingo488 Posts: 924 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Since you focus on the accuracy topic I figured I'd throw in some numbers and calculations, because I don't like talking about ''unlucky'',''lucky'',''constant misses'' and ''average luck'' when you can simply calculate the hit %. For this I'll use your own BM as example.

    Current BM build:

    Dex: 300
    Accuracy: 9170
    P.att: 33.2k-43.3k

    Targets:
    Reapa (Arcane example) - Evasion: 661
    Sanctan (Light example) - Evasion: 5520
    Joe (heavy example) - Evasion: 2116

    Formula's: evade% = ( target evasion - 1 ) / ( ( 2 * attacker accuracy ) + ( target evasion - 1 ) )
    hit% = 1 - evade%

    Your BMs hit % on these targets:
    Reapa: 96.53%
    Sanctan: 76.87%
    Joe: 89.7%


    Alternate BM build:
    Dex: 150 (150 because that's minimum requirement for r8 blade)
    Accuracy: 6170
    P.att: 38.5k-50.2k

    Targets:
    Reapa (Arcane example) - Evasion: 661
    Sanctan (Light example) - Evasion: 5520
    Joe (heavy example) - Evasion: 2116

    Formula's: evade% = ( target evasion - 1 ) / ( ( 2 * attacker accuracy ) + ( target evasion - 1 ) )
    hit% = 1 - evade%

    Alternate BMs hit % on these targets:
    Reapa: 94.92%
    Sanctan: 69.1%
    Joe: 85.37%


    Comparison:

    If you were to switch from 300 Dex build to 150 Dex build, the following will happen:

    +16% Minumum Physical Attack
    +15.9% Maximum Physical Attack

    Hit% on Reapa (Arcane Example): -1.67%
    Hit% on Sanctan (Light Example): -10.1%
    Hit% on Joe (Light Example): - 4.83%


    As you can see the increase in Physical Attack is higher than the decrease in Hit% in all examples, but the next question is ''How relevant is this % increase in Phyiscal Attack?'' because Physical Attack doesn't directly translate to damage. So instead we'll look at raw damage and then put it up against the hit% to see what the average damage is. I like to just use a random commonly-used skill for this test so I'll use Army Crusher.

    300 Dex damage:
    Reapa: 2317-2897
    Sanctan: 3013-3766
    Joe: 1347-1684

    150 Dex damage:
    Reapa: 2622-3295
    Sanctan: 3409-4283
    Joe: 1525-1916

    Average Damage on 300 Dex (with hit% factored in)
    Reapa: 2236-2796
    Sanctan: 2316-2895
    Joe: 1208-1511

    Average Damage on 150 Dex (with hit% factored in)
    Reapa: 2489-3128
    Sanctan: 2356-2960
    Joe: 1302-1636

    So now we have our increase in physical attack, and our decrease in hit% both factored into the same formula, so we can now see which build actually deals more damage on average. In every single one of the example it is true for the 150 dex version, but just for illustration Ill write down the %'s aswell.

    If you had 150 dex instead of 300 your damage would change as such:
    Damage against Reapa: +11.87%
    Damage against Sanctan: +2,25%
    Damage against Joe: +8.27

    As you can see the increase in damage between builds gets lower the higher your targets evasion gets. And when you look at Archers your damage might in fact be lower, which means the 300 dex build is stronger against Archers only.


    Closing words:

    I dont mean to say that one is better than the other, obviously both cater to a different focus. I do wish to address something that I find quite ironic. Your famous words that you say with so much snark and so much confidence:

    ''Imho a sage BM doesnt even need to try to 1v1 because it's mostly pointless anyways (unless ofc massive luck is at play). I mean, if you wanna degrade yourself to a Tank/AOE-Stun/HF bot for pure Mass-PvP, go ahead. But expect to be infuriated by constant misses and failures of every other skill you could possibly use.''

    I've literally just mathematically shown you that this playstyle is exactly what your 300 dex build caters to. You trade off damage (as much as ~10% on 9 out of 12 classes in the game) to very slightly increase your chance to hit HF/Stun. I know you've been caught saying dumb shjt multiple times and in your head you probably believe that if you say it confidently enough people will believe you. Because surely no one is going to check if anything you're saying is actually true. Either way you'll probably pull the Dawnglory classic and say you tested it on your friend and it was so much worse!! And you're luck is just really bad!!!!

    With a 150 dex build you will miss more, but even though you miss more you STILL do more damage than you would with a 300 dex build on every single class besides Archers. Reason why I think thats fine? Archer gets shut down completely by disarm. BM has 2 disarm skills, both of which have a 100% chance to hit. And Archers in generally aren't very threatening so I decided I didn't care to keep dex just so I could kill them.

    ''You'd know this if you pay attention to detail'' - Artist Joe 2017

    I do agree demon is better for 1v1 though... that's the only thing that wasn't bs

    Either way BMs have a big issue with accuracy and it sucks. Statting dex or sharding Amber shards are not the answer to that issue however. Casino BM is the only BM.

    \o Peace






    IGN: Madskillz
  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    @dingo488 I am starting to believe that you are autistic or something.

    I have told you guys several dozen times that the "official" formulas are more or less just a guideline. I just made a video testing 100 actual hits with each Accu configuration and while it is nearly similar to the forumals...that doesn't mean ****. The spirit formula is broken as well but w.e, blindly trusting formulas is ofc always the better choice but to actual make some testing.

    Your statements are just assumptions. You cannot possibly be that lucky to experience a different picture than dozens of other players..or rather, maybe you are that lucky, how should I know.

    Also, please don't cut out the fact that 150 dex also result in 7% additional crit, which might not be that effective on max buffed targets...but it is in 1v1. Also, the increased Evasion on yourself is also pretty damn effective against any other class that wants to attack you with skills that don't have 100% accuracy.

    That all taken into account and the pure randomness of this game..anything that increases the chances of my CC/debuffs/damage actually hitting is very, VERY welcome and has to be taken as far superior to just a tiny bit of extra damage. When does your own damage really matter as a BM? Lol. In Mass-PvP? That would be odd considering you seeing yourself as a CC bot that is jumping from target to target.

    Despite all this...just the higher chance to not miss a critical CC/Debuff or such is very much preferable. Maybe you have been lucky enough to evade this...I mean since you only do Mass-PvP you literally have 0 experience in a vast array of this games PvP-possibilities so how can I blame you? if your CC doesnt it, another ones will. I have experienced those constant misses again and again and again on all my chars. I could show you at least a few hundred situations in 1v1 in which I would've insta won a fight if just a single skill wouldn't have missed.

    Please, don't act all high and mighty and smart if your PoV is so extremely limited and biased. Also, please don't keep using the excuse that 1v1 is too easy. I could bet quite a bit of money that I would trash your BM on any other class this game offers in a 1v1 on equal gears without breaking a sweat. So much for simple 1v1 :DD Even your Mass-PvP eperience is biased. I never experience true challenges..I mean look at the people you PvP with...if that's not easy mode over 9000 I don't know what is.

    There is no reason to try to disregard me. I am representing a way more casual group in terms of gears and am thus very much more relate-able to the average Joe than someone that just PvPs with people that can hardly be outgeared or at a disadvantage at all. Thank god I didn't just focus on one char, I might've ended up just like this -> a complete biased mess.
  • saxrollsaxroll Posts: 1,190 Arc User
    jsxshadow wrote: »

    I have told you guys several dozen times that the "official" formulas are more or less just a guideline. I just made a video testing 100 actual hits with each Accu configuration and while it is nearly similar to the forumals...that doesn't mean ****. The spirit formula is broken as well but w.e, blindly trusting formulas is ofc always the better choice but to actual make some testing.

    I am just gonna ask you, how do you think these formulas were created?
    BlackList vs Frenzied 3/17

  • zombiemaster123zombiemaster123 Posts: 109 Arc User
    saxroll wrote: »
    jsxshadow wrote: »

    I have told you guys several dozen times that the "official" formulas are more or less just a guideline. I just made a video testing 100 actual hits with each Accu configuration and while it is nearly similar to the forumals...that doesn't mean ****. The spirit formula is broken as well but w.e, blindly trusting formulas is ofc always the better choice but to actual make some testing.

    I am just gonna ask you, how do you think these formulas were created?

    Someone had to take it from the code/devs. Anything else would be asinine over 9000. How would you ever come up with a formula by just testing stuff? I could estimate, but that's it.

    It's a good thing that people once made formulas that are not applicable in the slightest since loads of them are bound by chance/randomness. Spirit formula does not imply any sort of diminishing returns, yet they are there. Devs have rejected this game more often than not so yeah, makes sense to assume they messed up there too :D
  • dingo488dingo488 Posts: 924 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    saxroll wrote: »
    I am just gonna ask you, how do you think these formulas were created?

    My favorite part is the findings in his description

    ''1st example according to formula = 10.83% miss chance - legit
    2nd example according to formula = 14.88% miss chance - nope
    3rd example according to formula = 21.27% miss chance - legit''

    and then he moves on to a conclusion, as if this guy didn't just test the exact same formula 3 times.

    ''In conclusion...formulas can be somewhat accurate..but it's all chance''

    A formula based on hit% is all chance? Wonderful conclusion. In what country do they teach you in school that the only correct answer from any chance-based calculation is to say ''but it's all chance''... Mind=blown

    We've been lied to this whole time, thinking games are written by 0's and 1's, in truth everything online is written through an advanced technology called ''Dawnglory testing''. Nothing is written in formula's, nothing gets automatically calculated. And if you try a sample size of 100 hits and miss a few more times than anticipated than that means the formula was wrong in that one instance (and definitely not that your sample was an exception allowed through too small of a sample size). Though the formula is right in the other instances obviously. /s


    It's a good thing that people once made formulas that are not applicable in the slightest since loads of them are bound by chance/randomness. Spirit formula does not imply any sort of diminishing returns, yet they are there. Devs have rejected this game more often than not so yeah, makes sense to assume they messed up there too :D

    Yo please stop feeding stupid with stupid, you can't seriously mean that everyone on Dawnglory is like Joe.

    PVP Spirit Damage = (1,000 + Attacker Spirit) / (1,000 + Target Spirit)
    Damage dealt = Raw damage dealt * (PVP Spirit Damage Amplification)

    1/2 = 0.5
    1/3 = 0.33

    10/20 = 0.5
    10/21 = 0.48

    The higher the numbers get, the less change happens when changing a number.

    It's called diminishing returns.

    For some reason people hear the words diminishing returns and conclude that it's automatically bad. Diminishing returns just means that the stat in isolation becomes less effective the more you have of it. It doesn't at all give an answer wether or not it's better than alternate stats you can choose between. To get that answer you actually have to calculate how effective it is, or apparently test it on Dawnglory first.



    IGN: Madskillz
  • Is it true that sage or demon choice, depends on whether one likes PvP or PvE play style more, and which skill effects the player will use/prefer to use more often? Or is there really a good and bad type for each class. Confused.
  • thesquee1thesquee1 Posts: 44 Arc User
    dingo488 wrote: »
    I guess as one of the few sage BMs I'll report in n give my thoughts \o

    When I decide my build I completely focus on larger scale PvP. I think PvE is too easy to put a special build focus on it, and 1v1 PvP is too lineair and simple to really catch my interrest. I'll only address the topic with that in mind.

    While I agree that for a while (I don't think this is the case anymore) demon BMs had the ''stronger'' skills, I think it's wrong to say that this also made demon BM itself stronger. In a perfect and prepared scenario having the stronger skills obviously makes you stronger, there are no restrictions, but these scenario's only exist in PvE and in 1v1s. In mass PvP you're very rarely in a perfect and prepared scenario, it isn't as much about the strength of your abilities as it is about the availability of them. The kit that's provided to sage BMs puts a high focus on this availability while trading off some of it's strength.

    The glyphs have merged a lot of BM abilities so there's no point really going over those. The only one that might be worth addressing is Heaven's Flame. In the past a lot of BMs put a lot of value in the extra 3 seconds demon HF provided, so it's possible they will now still choose to keep the 9 second HF over ''downgrading'' it to a 8 second HF. To me those extra 3 seconds had next to no value. The strength of HF (in PvP) is entirely loaded in the first few seconds, every second after the first becomes significantly less valuable to the point where if your target hasn't died in the first 6 seconds, it's pretty much certain not to die in 9 either. PvP is interactive, your target isn't afk and won't allow you to get away with such long debuffs without taking any action against it.

    As for the skills that still have their seperate versions... Dragon Rising (which will be combined next patch) is a skill that's definitely better in the demon version. While you can make an argument that single target lock down isn't very good in mass PvP, and spending an unreasonable amount of time focussing 1 target is terribly inefficient, 1.5s extra Paralyse is still pretty nice. That doens't mean that the Sage version is just straight up bad with a 35% chance to cost no chi. You basically get every third bash for free (on average ofc) which means you have more chi to spend on other big skills (or just more bashes). Having a better bash but not enough chi to continuously use it isn't all that great. If you're demon and you can't spam bash on cooldown, you'd generally be better off being sage. (Demon = 25% more duration, Sage = 50% more availability)

    Roar of the Pride is a bit iffy and you can make an argument to go either way. The thing that gets brought up the most is probably the worst argument to make though, which is that Sage Roar can miss while demon cant. Not only is it very uncommon for Sage Roar to miss, in mass PvP the general goal is a stun a larger group of people, and while you might miss 1 person, you won't miss the rest. Now with the Primal versions of Roar they added a disarm to the skill, and while Sage Roar can miss, it will always disarm your target, even if there's no stun. Which is effectively the same thing against a lot of classes. I think the argument that demon Roar has a 1 second lower cooldown is better, but the fact it's never brought up makes it obvious... removing 1 second off a 15-second cooldown isn't that big of a deal. Sage Roar has it's benefits elsewhere, the skill costs 20 chi instead of 35. Which means a Sage BM can Roar twice for pretty much the same chi is a single Roar from a demon BM. Not only that but it synergizes very well with Ferocious Leap (which generates 20 chi) so that you can go from 0 chi to being able to Roar a group with only 1 skill that actually applies relevant pressure aswell. (Opposed to Star Smite which applies 0 relevant pressure)

    Bell + Marrows is another argument that was very relevant in the past, but has lost almost all of that with the Primal updates. This was the update that moved me off demon onto sage. In the past using Magic Marrow as a Sage BM was suicide, if you cast a debuff on yourself that reduces your base p.def by 120% then you're extremely vulnerable to getting further debuffed and annihilated. The Absolute Virtue passive permanently gives you a buff (that can't be removed) that increases your base pdef/mdef by 80%. What this means is that debuffs (and your Marrows) do not touch that 80% you gained. It only touches the base pdef/mdef. And therefore it's no longer dangerous to use Sage Magic Marrow since the % of Physical Defense that can actually be altered is extremely low and so removing 120% doesn't matter that much. Any existing argument that's still relevant regarding defenses is very minor. If Demon Bell's additional proc is active then I believe it'll push demon BMs to be very slightly more tanky to physical damage (Sage will always be more tanky to magic dmg), however this requires them to spam bell while in combat, which is not good. With the current glyphs you get very heavily rewarded for attacking people (There's so much chi on your attack skills now), this also means that if you're in combat and you're not attacking people, you're missing out on a very big portion of that reward. Which is what spamming Demon Bell to keep the proc active is.

    Passives need to be mentioned too, and this kind of goes for every class. In my opinion being demon sucks now on any class that doesn't have a very clear favor towards being demon (Demon Ironwood for example). And as all these skills are getting a combined Neverfall version all the classes are losing this Demon vs Sage identity. Demon passives are all centered around Crit %. And this game is currently filled with buffs that counter crits. Inkdragon Blood reduces Crit dmg by 20%, Primals passives reduce Crit dmg by 20%, DB buffs reduce crit dmg by 45%, and all of these buffs are very commonly active on every single person in mass PvP. While on first glance these buffs don't look like that big of a deal, these buffs all stack together lineairly to combine to a 85% crit damage reduction, which means crits are almost no different from regular hits. This makes Sage passives clearly better, they just make your regular hits (and also your crits) stronger.

    Mo Zun's Taunt vs Master Li's Technique is not that interresting to touch on, they both have their perks, Mo Zun's Taunt is stronger but Master Li's Technique is usable out of combat, and will always give you the maximum, where as Mo Zun's Taunt can always whif and reduce less chi than intended (simply because your target didn't have that much chi). Personally I think the fact you can use Master Li's Technique out of combat makes it a lot better than it's counterpart.

    I think that covers the major skills, I don't know if I really missed anything.
    Sage Diamond Sutra is obvious a lot better (20% chance to heal 50% of your max hp extra, I think Demon Diamond Sutra is hardly even worth using. This is mostly because everyone's HP is so high now, and the flat healing part of the skill is completely obsolete, but a 50% heal is huge.
    Star Smite you can favor either way, Demon decreases evasion which is pretty nice if you plan to afk on that target, Sage interrupts which is something you need to learn to use properly and it can be really good.
    Sage triple spark is obviously better, not like you'd get to use it very often.
    The Leaps benefit a lot from having the extra chi that Sage provides you, so while the skill itself doesn't upgrade, it fits a lot better in the Sage kit than it does in the Demon kit.


    Played Demon before the Primal World came out, but ever since I played Sage I've felt so spoiled by how much chi I have available that I would never consider being Demon again. I've tried playing a Demon BM with much higher gear than my Sage BM a few times after I became Sage but it just feels bad to not have the freedom to use the skills you want to use to the point where I literally felt like the additional gear wasn't even worth having if I had to be Demon. Granted the Glyph update helped a bit with that, I just don't think it was enough. I'm very curious to see which Demon BMs are going to get the Glyphed version of Dragon Rising next expansion, or which BMs will still stay Demon in general.

    Ignore everyone elses mindless babbling because this guy gets it. I've been saying it for years, it's not about how effective your abilities are, it's about how effectively you use them. If you can use them freqyently and effectively they don't need to be as strong as the demon versions. I was sage back when people said it was bad but the people that were in my squads in TW and NW loved it because, sure, HF wasn't 9 seconds, but I timed it so the target died in 3 and since I was sage I kept the chi to Bash a new target, and once in a while, I kept that chi, too. Never rely on the chance to hold chi, but abuse it when you do.
  • rawrtigerrawrrawrtigerrawr Posts: 10 Arc User
    I appreciate all the responses. This is exactly what I hoped for - knowledge backed up with experience. Advantages might be clear on paper, but their relevance is not always that obvious. I guess I wish more Demon BMs chimed in in the same way.

    I'll play the (nomen omen) devil's advocate for a while - wouldn't the Neverfall update which introduced higher chi returns on glyphed skills make up for the chi starvation Demon BMs used to suffer? @dingo488 Did you try playing Demon BM after this update or was it before?
  • thesquee1thesquee1 Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2018
    I appreciate all the responses. This is exactly what I hoped for - knowledge backed up with experience. Advantages might be clear on paper, but their relevance is not always that obvious. I guess I wish more Demon BMs chimed in in the same way.

    I'll play the (nomen omen) devil's advocate for a while - wouldn't the Neverfall update which introduced higher chi returns on glyphed skills make up for the chi starvation Demon BMs used to suffer? @dingo488 Did you try playing Demon BM after this update or was it before?

    I'll share my thoughts on it...

    Demon BM has always been about bursts of more powerful skills and sage BMs have always been about staying in the fray for what seemed like hours without a break. Less effective skills that are more available. Demon was good for its goal and sage was good for it's purpose.

    However, look at the game now. Most BMs went demon when it was about going in hard and spanking people with your team. Now fights last longer, there's more duration on invulnerability, there's purify spell and the G17 weapons have their own defensive effects. People survive you, now. It's harder to be a BM now than it was back then because even if you roar on everyone and land an HF on an entire squad, if the enemy is reacting properly it won't matter. You put their apoth/genie in cooldown and that's basically it. But, HF cooldown is shorter than those, so having it readily available as it comes off cooldown is now far more important than it was. Back then you could HF someone, they would AD, and demon BMs still had 6 seconds if they didn't -also- use their apoth. Fact of the matter is, there's more ways to get out of what we can do now.

    For this reason I think it's less of sage getting more powerful so much as demon is getting less impactful. Yes, demon BMs get their chi returned on their abilities now, too, but that's the thing, that's all they get. I glyphed my Ocean's Edge with a white glyph for much more damage on it, but if I were demon I'd need to put a blue glyph on it. Demon BM is restricted to having chi on their glyphs, sage BMs only need 2-3 blue glyphs these days. I have chi glyphs on my HF, Ferocious Leap, and Drakes Ray. Everything else has damage because I get enough chi to make Ocean's Edge hurt more, put extra base damage on our longest range AoE (Army Crusher) and I currently have a green glyph on River Avalanche to make it cast faster which will be irrelevant when they put Dragon Rising into the level 12 skills because I sure as hell will be replacing RA with DR.

    In other words, BM skills have not changed much, granted we got the new CC Paralyze and roar now disarms, but all that really does is negate the abundance of purify spell, putting our abilities in almost the same position as they were before. However, more and more ways have come into the game to work against our abilities what with defensive passives to survive our burst, weapons that give casters more tankiness than some before, and glyphs making them have an easier time getting away from us. With it getting easier to deal with BMs running around as the game evolves the demon BM that used to be heralded for the better HF and superior stunlock starts to look a bit less pretty. Suddenly BMs are demanding more damage which the sage provides (See what dingo488 said about masteries) and skills are not required to be so powerful, just more accessable. Congratulations that HF lasted 9 seconds and mine lasts 8 and the target died in 3. You can do that with level 10 HF, at that point you might as well take the path that lets you have HF available easier while also dishing out the more damage.

    But in the end I think this discussion will become more and more meaningless over time as they make most of our key abilities go into the level 12 skills. The two most important BM abilities, HF and Dragon Rising, will both be combined into both next month, with HF already being here and Dragon Rising on its way with Wonderland. Since the two best BM abilities are going to be equally powerful for both culti paths it's no longer about who is more powerful, but now about who can do it more often while doing enough damage to be a threat.
    Post edited by thesquee1 on
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