Dilema -_-
mistressmuerta
Posts: 152 Arc User
Ever since the culti fusion im starting to feel that demon's received the short end of the stick. I'm not complaining. I have just been really torn lately between swapping to sage. With chi gylphs and genie skills it is very possible to live in bramble hood as a sage. As a demon however, it is very satisfying to completely bypass a charm draining 80% of a targets max hp with a debuff. Both sage and demon have skills that can be supplimented by a genie. IW proc isn't as effective with def levels catching up to attack levels. It still hurts but not as bad as before. I feel like im losing my way.
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Demons only perk is IW and always has been. Sage is far superior in every other regard, basically.
Still hope they force IW upgrade soon so that broken debuff finally gets removed. If they do that, we will not see demon venos anymore, I guess. Also, IW might not be broken for your own antinomy/pet damage/fox skills, but get any Phys class even remotely landing an AOE/hit on a debuffed target and they just explode, doesnt matter how many def lvl that person has.
No offense, demon veno is a cheap trick built (if IW) and sage is where it's at. My own veno is demon too but I got converted by the mighty kitashi.0 -
Demons only perk is IW and always has been. Sage is far superior in every other regard, basically.
Still hope they force IW upgrade soon so that broken debuff finally gets removed. If they do that, we will not see demon venos anymore, I guess. Also, IW might not be broken for your own antinomy/pet damage/fox skills, but get any Phys class even remotely landing an AOE/hit on a debuffed target and they just explode, doesnt matter how many def lvl that person has.
No offense, demon veno is a cheap trick built (if IW) and sage is where it's at. My own veno is demon too but I got converted by the mighty kitashi.
Demon veno here _without_ IW o/ Still loving it, always have. 0 -
Demon still has the better chi drain and, consequently, the higher chances of killing with Sanguine-Crush Vigor, or simply better chances of causing chi problems. In addition, I think Demon Summer Sprint's anti-stun is more useful than Sage's purify in situations like 3v3 (arena) and solo PvP where you have more control of your timing. In mass PvP you can't predict every stun that might come your way, like with sneaky archers hiding behind trees. It depends on what type of PvP you want to focus on. There's also the speed boost which gives Demons better all-around mobility. That's something to consider with the meta going towards G17 weapons and the gradual decline of Purify Spell's effectiveness.
If money isn't an issue, you could try Sage but not learn the glyph Redstone so that you can go back to Demon if Sage doesn't work out for you. I still think Demon remains as the somewhat more offensive path while Sage is the somewhat more defensive path, but the line has been blurred after the Neverfall update.
I was contemplating over this for a while myself and asked around the opinions of other players, Venomancers and non-Venomancers alike. In the end I felt that asking other people didn't really help me. Some people think Sage is obsolete now, others say Sage is great and some don't care at all. I was back to where I started and had to make the decision on my own.
Most of my indecisiveness probably came from seeing people hyping Demon up, and my fear of me becoming a "useless Sage". I sat down and thought over things over. There I realised that the skill fusions didn't make me enjoy Sage less, and the friends that play with me don't really care what I am. I thought "hey maybe Demon really is better" but "better" doesn't necessarily equal "more fun". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I hope you can find your own answer, too.
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I have been demon for about a year now, otherwise i been sage the whole time. I believe sage is the better overall choice honestly and i sometimes really miss it, but for now ill continue to be demon. I enjoy the IW and extra chi burn.
Rest of the demon skills are worse than sage. It is just IW that are such a superior debuff.0 -
I decided to try sage for a week. The chi gain was great. Combined with my glyphs/genie i could literally live in bramble hood or barrier. However, I've decided to stay demon. Running fast is just fun. XD Nothing seems to beat an instant 80% hp bypass crush combo. Sage has one chain for an instant but it involves a skill most players instantly domain/pot against making it somewhat unreliable. Demon has a myriad of ways to chain into the Crush Combo making it less predictable and more reliable. The combo also seems to be the only true damage in game. In defence of IW, the main reason it is powerful is due to the fact it requires no purge to bypass the target def buffs. The next step is positioning and whether or not the target def charm is in c/d. IW is losing power because def lvls are catching up to attack lvls. In the past the gap was so large it appeared to render def lvls useless. That isnt the case with the current meta. Wiz can do the same thing with an unbuffed target with fire resistance. Both SB(ulti+100 skill+ mdebuff) and Wiz combos are guarneteed, involve multiple hits removing def charms, and the wiz combo even has a short c/d like IW. The SB combo can 0 mdef. IW is balanced due to trade off. Random strong short c/d vs 100% reliable strong debuff. High risk high reward. No one knows when thier IW is going to proc. I realize being a demon more suitable to my insideous playstyle. Ty Veno sisters for your input.0
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mistressmuerta wrote: »I decided to try sage for a week. The chi gain was great. Combined with my glyphs/genie i could literally live in bramble hood or barrier. However, I've decided to stay demon. Running fast is just fun. XD Nothing seems to beat an instant 80% hp bypass crush combo. Sage has one chain for an instant but it involves a skill most players instantly domain/pot against making it somewhat unreliable. Demon has a myriad of ways to chain into the Crush Combo making it less predictable and more reliable. The combo also seems to be the only true damage in game. In defence of IW, the main reason it is powerful is due to the fact it requires no purge to bypass the target def buffs. The next step is positioning and whether or not the target def charm is in c/d. IW is losing power because def lvls are catching up to attack lvls. In the past the gap was so large it appeared to render def lvls useless. That isnt the case with the current meta. Wiz can do the same thing with an unbuffed target with fire resistance. Both SB(ulti+100 skill+ mdebuff) and Wiz combos are guarneteed, involve multiple hits removing def charms, and the wiz combo even has a short c/d like IW. The SB combo can 0 mdef. IW is balanced due to trade off. Random strong short c/d vs 100% reliable strong debuff. High risk high reward. No one knows when thier IW is going to proc. I realize being a demon more suitable to my insideous playstyle. Ty Veno sisters for your input.
80%? dont tell me you have a lvl 8 glyph o.o0 -
If you insist then i won't tell you.
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@mistressmuerta You, like many other people, seem to still have some miss-conceptions about debuffs. If SBs could have something like IW with 20% chance to put a targets mdef to 0, trust me, they gladly give up their slow 3 min CD 100% debuff (Perigean Tide) and 5 min CD 80% debuff (ulti).
IW has no downsides. There is absolutely 0 risk involved by using that skill. High risk, high reward makes no sense in that regard. Even with insta-chan a SB needs at least 4 seconds to use Cloud Burst, Perigean Tide and Ulti and a follow-up skill. Sure, if it hits, it hurts but you got so much time to react to that...it's just easily blockable 99% of the time.
If any physical class is even remotely close to you and attacking you/AOEing and you get the random IW-proc on you then you instantly die. SBs debuffs go to a max of 250% (230% for me cause I like the steady 50% of Cloud burst more than the peak 70%). This is enough to bring self-buffed LA/HA to 0 def, yes. but even with cleric buffs on top that is not the case anymore. Now also add Nation War wine and people are at a base at 260% magic defense and thus going to 0 is impossible. Vs caster it's entirely impossible with as much as Nation War wine on.
That setup, that Cooldown and way lower effectiveness makes those debuffs not really comparable in the slightest. Same goes for Fire-Combo from Wizards. It's roughly 170% debuff, unable to bring anything to 0 and at most close to 0. It's also very predictable and alot easier to counter than IW. I wouldn't say the random nature of IW is a disadvantage. Nope. Try blocking the damage with expel in time or anticipate massive damage spikes out of the blue. IF you would rate those debuffs on a scale between 1 to 10. All SBs debuffs are a 5, Wizards is at 6 and IW is 11 and I pray for the day it is finally removed.
-rant over!!!
Gratz on the level8 glyph...hot damn. That's like 260-ish lvl4 glyphs? xDD Just 5b then, ez.0 -
Jsxshadow did you not read the part where I stated unbuffed targets? You added buffs to what I said. Wiz combo I know it is not 0.The cool down on spark is only 40 seconds. Realistically, how many players unbuffed are tanking nochan fire attacks at -170% fire resist from r9rr wizards? The sb part. An sb can keep a target cc'd for a number of combos. Your failure to do so does not indicate something can not be done. Can SB 0 mdef an unbuffed target with the sb combo 100% of time. Yes. Can you do this 100% of the time with IW. No. After an IW proc AA(the main nuke for the combo) has a 2 min c/d. If the target def charm is'nt broken you have to go into fox and get into mele range to attack making yourself vulnerable and wasting time. There is also a video on utube where a wiz fought a veno using IW and you know what she did. Manually clicked her def charm whenever IW proced and it saved her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gku2oo5vKOI. Also for the instant die from any physical class if you are IW proced. Go to pw calc... Type in Vrrg, debuff him to 0 pdef and watch him survive even a crit from his own gemeni slash. This illustrates when i said IW losing power due to def lvl catching up to attack lvls. It is also a paradox to be remote and close . The target is either in range or they are not. https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=remote+definition&oq=remote+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.567973j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
LOL lvl 8 gylph wasn't even half that amount with the rewards event giving 5 lvl 4 packs and how much you could sale gold for during that time + glyphs from dailies stacked up. More like 1.8b for me.
Once again, thank you Veno's for your input and helping me find a resolve.
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@jsxshadow I clearly stated unbuffed targets. Why did you add buffs when I said unbuffed? I am aware that wiz fire combo is not truly 0%. Reaslistically how many unbuffed players are tanking multiple fire attacks @ -170%. The cool down on genie spark is also 40 secs. That combo has a fairly low cooldown. The SB has longer cool downs but it is also 100%. The SB can also 0 mdef unbuffed targets and has the CC to lock down a target to do so. Sure there are ways to avoid these combos, but there are also ways to avoid IW. I said that these are 100% debuff combos where IW is not. I do not get a 0 proc on every IW cast. The nuke for IW combo, AA has a 2 min c/d. If AA is in c/d, and the target def charms are not in c/d you have to go into mele range in fox form making you vulnerable against ranged attacks.There is a video on youtube with a wiz fighting a veno using IW. The wiz counters by simply manually clicking def charm on IW proc. If you visit pw calc and type in vyrrg, set his pdef to 0 you will find he also doesnt die instantly from his own gemeni slash. This is more evidence supporting decreasing the attack/def lvl gap reduces IW proc effectiveness. It is also a paradox for a physical class to be remote and close simultaneously. The target is either in range or they are not. That applies to this reality and extends to Pangu's. Once again, thank you Veno's for your input and helping me find my resolve as a demon.
It was actually pretty cheap(not even half 5b) to make a lvl 8 glyph during the rewards event giving 5 lvl 4 glyphs + gylph stacks from dailies combined with the amount you could sell gold for to buy more glyphs during that time.
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=remote+definition&oq=remote&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.1535j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gku2oo5vKOI 0 -
Double-post? And hot damn, the entire forum, literally everyone only talks about mass-PvP these days. Literally completely disregarding 1v1 and now here you are, talking about 1v1. How big is the chance? Yeah, pretty low.
If you think I can't pull it off you can watch me facerolling a barb that is massively outgearing me. No competition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBLaVWCdeaQ
In 1v1 you have full control. In 1v1 you can counter anything that is not a sin or duskblade. Also, I never speak from my personal PoV, I try to be objective. Same as me crying about sins. I do not have issues with sins in 1v1 at all, no matter the class. Does that mean that they are not broken? No, so I shall still talk about it and complain.
Overall, in anything that isnt 1v1, IW is far superior to any other debuff combo in the game. And even in 1v1...SoF makes an easy fix of wizards spark combo. To kill other AAs wizards also have to be lucky with crits/charmbypass to kill someone. Also, if your IW combo deals such low damage on ppl like vyrrg, what does the fire combo do then? Yeah. Also, if we are comparing the ease of avoiding something..if you die from a full debuff combo a storm can use then you are a nub in 1v1. Seriously. HoS + Oxygen, faith, AD, Apo...and you are save for 5 minutes. 5 MINUTES!!! Absolutely no pressure at all.
PS: What do you need AA for when even your pet deals enough damage to wipe LA/AA with IW proc on...lol.0 -
@mistressmuerta the only ppl who die to sb 1v1 to ulti or Perigean must not know how to properly use their genie against a sb.. HoS, for ulti easily fixed, fortify IG and you can avoid Perigean tide. Depending on luck you can do multi IW procs hell just the first one is enough to bait ppl enough to burn a save to avoid IW. I don’t think it’s fair to compare sb killshot combo and veno maybe wiz but with a 3min cd and a 5min cd it literally means you can’t do anything for quite a while but stall for time sadly for sb. Perhaps it will be different when more zerk arcane meta happens105/105/105 Seeking ScallyMode
http://mypers.pw/5/#2589580 -
I rewrote everything because I could not see my post when i refreshed the page. If your efforts were focused more on objectives instead of attacking me you might have a valid rebuttal proc. However you are lacking objectivity. You can only excell to your level of incompetence. I posted unbuffed and you bring up buffs. You assumed the entire post is about mass. How much arena/tw/nw is done unbuffed? I would like to see a video of a full faction unbuffed tw. Then you prove my point with a video showing how SB can get a massive debuff 100% of the time+ the CC to pull it off despite not doing full combo with ulti. That also means you failed. Posted proof of yourself failing to do so also . At no point during the entire 11:15 sec video is there an instance where the barb has (ulti+mdebuf+sb100 skill) debuffs simultanously. IW can not achieve this because you can not 100% 0 proc on every cast. At that point it would be unfair.Then you go further to argue that a wizard needs luck for a bypass when IW combo works on the same principles(% chance luck ect). The pw calc comment was the answer to your comment about instantly dying when 0 proced. A veno needs 112k base magic and 156 attack lvls to deal 39k non crit with a 0 proc on Vyrrg or 60k base and 210 attack lvls to deal 40k non crit Both veno calcs with 2.5k spirit. This illustrated how decreased att/def lvl gap reduce the effectiveness of IW. The difference between a target hit with sb/wiz fire combo vs IW is they are multi hits where IW+AA is 1 shot deal. Even if both debuffs have thier damage reduced, the other classes are hitting multiple times. 1 hit nerfed to 20k by high def lvls is less dmg than mutiple 10-15k's at 0 mdef or -170% fire def. We also already went over how easy it is to avoid all of the combos. Manually clicking a def charm when u get IW proced by a veno is a lot easier. Charm has short c/d, can be hotkeyed for fast reaction time, and saves resources like genie/apoc. Wiz and SB can easily blow through a targets genie/pots/charms on top of a guarenteed combo.
P.S. Most of the time pets are dead. Pet damage has also fallen behind vs players even with 0 proc due to the inablity to inherit spirit and low base damage. IW is usually cast from outside of fox form range and followed up by AA.(also a ranged skill)And hot damn, the entire forum, literally everyone only talks about mass-PvP these days. Literally completely disregarding 1v1 and now here you are, talking about 1v1. How big is the chance? Yeah, pretty low.
If you think I can't pull it off you can watch me facerolling a barb that is massively outgearing me.
(Face rolling a barb is not the full combo being successfully pulled off. Thank you for providing proof.)
Also, I never speak from my personal PoV, I try to be objective. IF you would rate those debuffs on a scale between 1 to 10. All SBs debuffs are a 5, Wizards is at 6 and IW is 11 and I pray for the day it is finally removed.
(These statements smh.)
I think it is time for the moderator to close this derailed thread.0 -
@mistressmuerta You are completely biased. You know, unlike you, I play all the classes. I just don't assume things like you do. I've been there, done that.
Some logical fallacies on your part:
1. The game now obviously only consists of serenity seeker. Sure.
2. The game also only consists of classes that have no defensive procs, thus you don't have to worry about multiple hits triggering a proc that will ruin your 5 min CD combo. Sure.
3. I didn't even need to use the full combo vs the barb despite having all disadvantages in the world. Yeah, i am a great player, thanks for pointing that out.
4. Random possible oneshot debuffs are easily avoided by manually using def charms. Sure. Must be hard if you don't know how to CC.
5. Since all players are serenity seeker, pets surely deal no damage on players and here there are venos hitting other jaded arcanes for 13k hits with their battlebot.
6. All other combos but your own extremely broken BS are so much better cause you have to feel lile you are not abusing unfair BS to get through the night. Too bad that Fire combo and SB-debuff combos are absolutely unpredictable and unavoidable. You will always instantly die (...if you are a skill-less fool
).
7. Good thing that items you get from charge rewards (which are tradeable) have no value at all so ofc 1b for a level 8 glyph seems legit (still 5b+ for intelligent ppl).
8. Accuses me for getting personal when in fact you started it yourself. Go read back. If any sort of criticism is being personal for you..welp. but if ya want it, you get it.
9. Worst of all: you are talking to me. Make the same mistake as dozens before you. You seriously think you know better than me? Really? Well, obviously not.
Sorry, I love to 1v1 on forums but your are unfortunatly way undergeared. Keep making your excuses, keep acting as if easy to avoid stuff is soo powerful and that your broken BS is in fact soo harmless. One might get the impression that your skill-level is just massively lacking.
If you need assistance with CC to get your broken IW combo through in 1v1, come to DA and ask kitashi. You can learn loads from her.
PS: I dont wanna be that mean, or boast my own ego, but if you accuse me and falsely boast your own ego before..well, I simply beat fire with fire. Mine is stronger.0 -
Will you stop adding things with your assumptions. The second part of this thread is literally defending IW. There are weapons with defensive procs and classes that have defense skills with procs. The only def procs/skills that can foil the combos are skills/def procs that grant immunity,tidal,purify,untargetable or SOS/SOS. The weapon procs are also chance based as well as some of the skill effects. Those all fall in the same category as ways to avoid and can affect all the combos listed in some form. All I did was point out a combo that can be done 100% vs not. A moderate to long cooldown on a skill that debuffs 100% of what the skill description reads is justified to have it's long to moderate cool down vs a skill with a low success rate. What I am saying is just not processing to you. Scenario. Lets say a veno and an sb/wiz are fighting someone and all the taregt's resources are burned through who is more likely to get the kill using the kill combos listed? Hoping IW is going to proc or using a 100% debuff combo. You also fail to realize the seeker post is an example of the effects of def lvls on IW effectiveness. The barb video. I never said you were great player. I said that you failed to provide what I requested(full mdebuff combo).The only success was showing a reliable strong debuff. You also assumed that I traded the glyphs from the rewards promo. Why would I trade glyphs when I need to combine them to get higher lvl ones. You also have no idea how many gylphs I already had on hand before the promo. So it was an easy 1.8b. LOL please show me a battle bot dealing 13k on a jaded character with only IW proced. Screen shots of the target gear and pet while it is doing this(from an offical server). I provided data anyone can go verify for IW for what i stated on pw calc. Where is your proof? Another thing to add using your logic, everyone killed by the fire combo on that wizards channel is a skill-less fool.
Your opionion is IW is a cheap trick. I provided an argument with data/evidence to show why is not.
I'm starting to get the impression that you have just been caught by IW one too many times and too slow to click a def charm or genie save skill.0 -
This thread is glorious, just glorious.
The main problem with IW proc is how it works, back in days it was somewhat balanced because ppl had barely any defenses so the IW proc only increased dmg by 3-4x. Which is still extremely powerful but not quite as broken as its nowdays. I got 89% p.dmg reduction on my archer w/o buffs. IW proc and I take 9x more dmg from physical attacks.
And what costs are there with IW? 30 chi or something silly low like that? How bout archers get 0 m.def proc on thunder shock with same "Low 20% success rate"? Cause I can promise you, not a single archer would keep the "80%" 100% rate debuff if we got to choose. Then again CN clearly thought, understandably, that 80% debuff w/o channel time was broken and nerfed it slightly. But what we got nerfed wasnt remotely as broken what IW proc is.
So in short, problems with IW proc are it was created on outdated defense numbers, making it way more powerful than it was intended to be. And it has almost no cost for the extremely high reward.
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I wouldn't attribute the power of IW to low defenses back in the day. There was no scaling from attack levels/spirit and the levels of attack/magic attack were significantly lower back then. A wiz with 8k base was considered OP then compared to classes having anywhere from 40-70k base now. Your 89% is from gear defenses. IW sets that to 0 so at that point you either need high def lvs, stacks of % dmg reduction, or a combination to reduce its damage. I don't think the devs would give archers a debuff that powerful because of thier high crit rates/hyper mobility so they settled on a purge weapon.0
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mistressmuerta wrote: »I wouldn't attribute the power of IW to low defenses back in the day. There was no scaling from attack levels/spirit and the levels of attack/magic attack were significantly lower back then. A wiz with 8k base was considered OP then compared to classes having anywhere from 40-70k base now. Your 89% is from gear defenses. IW sets that to 0 so at that point you either need high def lvs, stacks of % dmg reduction, or a combination to reduce its damage. I don't think the devs would give archers a debuff that powerful because of thier high crit rates/hyper mobility so they settled on a purge weapon.
Depends how far back you want to go but ever since R9 became the norm, attack/def level ratio has been there more or less unchanged. Some go Deity, some go Jades, affecting that ratio but the basic attack/def levels have been there for a while now. And its a lot more attack levels than defense levels. As for spirit, it matters not due you would imagine in theoretical situation for both parties to have the same spirit or the conversation leads to nowhere. Even spirit = no dmg multiplier.
Due we being locked into R9 gear, there isnt exactly much % dmg reductions to be had. And certain classes, namely archers, cant go defensive sharding w/o becoming purify pets. Assuming there is no major gear disparity in place.
As for it being too powerful debuff for archers, I agree. But by same logic its way too powerful debuff for venos too and thus should be nerfed. Archers literally have least dmg of all the classes and thats with effectively 100% crit rate. Venos can pretty much match archers mobility. There is no major upside/downside between classes to justify that debuff on one of them but not on the other one.0 -
@mistressmuerta you need to experience some more 1v1 then. SB vs Veno, both jaded. Veno will ultimately win due to IW. Why? Cause in that situation..a veno is hardly forced to use any sort of genie/apo as long as the sb doesnt use the full debuff combo and the CD is way longer than apo/genie need to recover. All a veno needs is IW proc, spam AA, Fox skills, w.e.
Being able to 100% pull something off is nice when its the only way to kill and has 5 min CD, so OP. Any other class in the entire game would gladly give up their strongesz skills in exchange for a skill like IW. Gladly, no second thought needed.
If you think that wizards or SB arr more OP cause they manage to kill others reliably in 1v1 then you got fooled. Being able to trick people into wasting their stuff to blow them away 100% afterwards is skill, that's not the class itself, its the player.
IW needs no trickery, its just BS..and you still argue as if anyone uses IW brainlessly...giving you a chance to counter it with def charms..LOL. heard about CC? Its nice. You should watch a great veno playing 100% IW abuse in 1v1..not much you can do about it. If the class with the most saves in the entire game wouldn't have IW, it would be somewhat okish. Venos can just slap max vit on, get as much tankieness as possible and be nearly impossible to be killed while still being able to kill anything with just IW + 1 physical DD friend, preferably a sin. GG WP.
PS: also that logic...so you found all the glyphs you had on the ground somewhere, they have been worthless and you couldn't have resold them,m no matter what you did? If not, they had value, you could've made those billions by selling them abd hence thats what it cost you. What nonsense is that..just cause you farmed a bulk of it makes it lose the value? Wtf? Weird logic.0 -
There is a reason lost city was full of vit build demon venos but ok let's give IW to all classes it's not broken guys all good lel.0
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