Archer PvP Evasion

deadwieght
deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
in Quality Corner
Type: Gameplay

Category : Skills

Location: All PvP areas

Description: Evasion does not seem to follow the believed evasion equation in PvP which is as follows...
(evade% = ( target evasion - 1 ) / ( ( 2 * attacker accuracy ) + ( target evasion - 1 ) )hit% = 1 - evade%

After several years of collecting amber shards I now have well over 20k evasion on my character (Deadwieght of Tideswell). While Evasion seems to be working well, in fact VERY well, in PvE the signifigant difference my archer has over Seekers, Barbs, BMs, and lots of other players in the game seems to give my class no advantage in PvP. Since evasion is the main boost for archers i would like to propose that evasion is completly broken in PvP. Even with "diminshing returns" my toon would be well above the 40% miss rate on nearly any player, this is simply just not the case. I have done tests in-game.

The new gear has a large accuracy bonus added to it so I'm guessing that works just fine. Please look into Evasion in PvP. I will offer my toon as a tester if needed as I believe im the only one in PWI with this much evasion.

Thank you

Comments

  • axel320
    axel320 Posts: 66 Arc User
    Considering magic classes (and seekers with magic now, if I remember correctly?) never miss, and other classes have a plethora of 100% accuracy skills or evasion debuffs (see: star smite), and I'm willing to bet just about everyone you PvP against knows you're evasion sharded -- I'm willing to chalk this up to people being smart enough to counter it.

    Yes, evasion is trash regardless, but that does not mean the formula is incorrect.
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    I may have not been precise enough in my post, I am not talking about magic classes. Yhis is purely against melle type classes as we all know true magic attacks never miss.

    Seekers magic attacks are similiar to archer magic attacks (I think) in that they are physical attacks with a magic damage conversion, meaning that the attack can miss because it isn't true magic, hence why seekers and archers dont stat magic...

    Star Smite is a interupt skill for BM's as far as I know.

    Each class has at most three 100% accuracy skills (I think), most only two, only one of which I know is spammable. With the new expansion there might be a few more more depending on how the player glyphs.

    My question remains unchanged.

  • eirghan
    eirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    I'd like to bring @jsxshadow here since he has promoted the seeker dexterity build. I dont think he owns a seeker but he seems to like dex/evasion builds so maybe he has something to say on it.​​

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  • jsxshadow
    jsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    Well I thought about Evasion alot, tested alot and I gotta say that Eva is always neat. Really, it boils down to just pure luck. For some people 40% hit chance is 100% hit chance. Ppl with 2k Accu missing less than ppl with 10k accu.

    I agree that Eva is a bit underpowered in this game but it's not completely useless, same as accuracy. I noticed that sometimes it doesnt matter but overall having higher Accu helps alot on high Eva classes and having high eva helps on low accu classes.

    It's completely luck based just like so many things in PWI. Overall it's neat to have since hits get evaded quite a bit more often if you have high eva (especially if you use BotC as an archer and even then hits go through many, many times but usually they don't).

    I'd really like to see them take out the chance factor on so many things. LEt's say you have a 50% chance to evade something...why not count it? 1 Hit goes through, the next doesn't. Or if you have 33% chance then 2 hits go through and the 3rd doesnt. This way people would be forced to pay more attention and also would be given tools to circumvent stupidly broken mechanics. I'd like that. Don't set your hopes too high tho as CN loves their chance based gamestyle.
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    You almost had me on that random stuff, but it is not true...or rather evasion does not work the same in PvP as it does in PvE. I'm not sure which is the correct statement. This is why i seek the devs. Either way the formula we all have come to believe is incorrect in PvP.

    Take an example of a Tyrant Army Remnant (http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/51661). This mob has 6.1k accuracy. It roughly hits me 25% of the time which is on point with the evasion equation. I'm going to leave all the calculations out for now unless someone needs me to do math for them.

    A barb 105x3 with accuracy of 1.9k hits me roughly 80% of the time, minus 100% accuracy skills ofcourse. That is MASSIVE difference. Even jsx has atested to BotC, which is 1000% increase in evasion and over 100k evasion for me, does not make the attacker miss attacks according to the equation.

    The equation is only applicable in PvE. Therefore it needs to be looked at. A toon with 6k-8k accuracy which is most BMs and Seekers should according to the formula be in the range of 70% miss rate. A Barb....95%+ miss rate. Sins, Archers and DBs fall into the 40%-50% range depending on rings for me.

    No other shard or buff works one way vs. mobs and another vs. players that I know except spirit (and that's a stretch). If the shard is evasion then make it evasion, not evasion vs. mobs...

    I am willing to show videos, damage logs and such to prove this if anyone doubts it.
  • jennypye
    jennypye Posts: 2 Arc User
    Eeek.. so no more amber shards DW.....
  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    I was asked through the ticket system to post my class' issue here and that a Quality or Dev. team member would respond or at least have a look into this.

    Has that happened?
  • kwixxy1
    kwixxy1 Posts: 7 Arc User
    deadwieght wrote: »
    Seekers magic attacks are similiar to archer magic attacks (I think) in that they are physical attacks with a magic damage conversion, meaning that the attack can miss because it isn't true magic, hence why seekers and archers dont stat magic...

    You're not quite right about that. While seeker's magic attacks are derived from their physical attack, the attack itself is magic dmg and it does not miss. In all my 6 years of playing a seeker, basically since the day the class was introduced, I've never missed while using either of my magic attacks. However archer's magic attacks do miss. I don't know why it's set up like that but yeah.

    Also as things are now after the glyph system the majority of seeker skills can be glyphed to never miss. I'm not sure about all the other physical classes but I think a lot also have the 'never miss' option when glyphing.

    Don't want to be discouraging here even though I don't exactly know how the evasion formula works in pvp but if for some whatever reason it's broken I doubt they would do anything to apply a fix. Simply because a lot of physical attacks from various classes can be glyphed to never miss. It would be pointless to have whatever high evasion so the devs won't bother looking into something that's not a very popular aspect of pvp. This sucks for archers because it renders their evasion skills useless but if I were you, as bad as it sounds, I would replace my evasion shards because after the glyph system was introduced I doubt you'll see any misses on you.
  • eirghan
    eirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    This is 100% wrong and i can prove it. Seekers absolutely miss.

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  • kwixxy1
    kwixxy1 Posts: 7 Arc User
    eirghan wrote: »
    This is 100% wrong and i can prove it. Seekers absolutely miss.

    Prove me wrong then I beg you because I have yet to miss while using ion spike; battousai/glowing blade; heartseeker and edged blur. Not on mobs or on players have I ever missed using a magic attack on seeker so please shatter my illusions.
  • blazerboy
    blazerboy Posts: 1,673 Arc User
    I wish physical attacks never miss.... jk jk saves me from sins but I don't believe @kwixxy1 edge blur misses since it's coded as a dot hence why tidal protection can avoid it but I believe seeker magic can miss in regards to the status ailment not applying it's been a while so I don't recall perhaps @eirghan can do a test video!!!
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  • kwixxy1
    kwixxy1 Posts: 7 Arc User
    blazerboy wrote: »
    I wish physical attacks never miss.... jk jk saves me from sins but I don't believe @kwixxy1 edge blur misses since it's coded as a dot hence why tidal protection can avoid it but I believe seeker magic can miss in regards to the status ailment not applying it's been a while so I don't recall perhaps @eirghan can do a test video!!!

    Well you can glyph all your physical skills to never miss, with the exception of bloodthirsty blitz and vortex so your wish to never miss with physical attacks is very very possible. : D
    On the other hand about the magic attacks what I meant by miss is not the status proc. For example if you're using duelist's glee stance in combination with heartseeker attack and the proc (10sec immobilize) from heartseeker is not applied but instead you apply disarmed status that doesn't mean heartseeker missed. If the target received dmg from heartseeker regardless what proc followed after, the attack was not a miss.

    As I said before I've personally never missed using ion spike; battousai/glowing blade; heartseeker and edged blur. However if @eirghan can prove otherwise I'd like t see it.
  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    Please argue about Seeker skills somewhere else. This is thread is for Dex based classes who have basic gameplay issues. Yes seekers magic skills miss. i may have mistyped in my post.
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  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    bringing this back to the top because my class still doesnt have a proper self buff that works correctly in PvP. 0 staff comment
  • syxz2
    syxz2 Posts: 5 Arc User
    deadwieght wrote: »
    Please argue about Seeker skills somewhere else. This is thread is for Dex based classes who have basic gameplay issues. Yes seekers magic skills miss. i may have mistyped in my post.

    you, sir, are very wrong. seeker metal skills do not miss. they never miss. they have never missed. how are you trying to figure out evasion when you don't understand basic game and class-specific mechanics. now with the glyph system the 3 main seeker spam skills(physical) never miss along with all their metal skills. in 5 years of playing seeker i have never seen battousai miss a target in pve or pvp.
  • cbmelo97
    cbmelo97 Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I gotta say I only notice other classes miss my archer, significantly and as expected, if i use the 79 evasion skill. Otherwise, I can say, with property, that my evasion is useful as fashion wep: its there for the looks. Every other advantage archers had, are no longer advantages - evasion being one of them. Im more than happy to make videos to help DW prove his point. I do not posses as much evasion, or accuracy, as he does, but i do believe i represent thr average r9 archer evasion and accuracy numbers.

    PS: Syx2, read what sontzu said. Plus, DW's information can be easily backed up and im sure he will if staff requires him to; not to mention he offered his toon for testing. One class is simply one class, how manu races r in this game? How many toons? How many skills? How many of them miss? How many of those do actually obey evasion rule? This is the issue. The overall, not the one skill of that one class that he isnt sure. For every skill we are unsure about, there are at least triple that we are that can miss and honestly seems to never do like its supposed to.
  • nadss
    nadss Posts: 21 Arc User
    Honestly the pure fact this guy sharded amber shards is laughable lol. If u had a point doing so why ppl would spend bilions on jades/deities?
  • cbmelo97
    cbmelo97 Posts: 16 Arc User
    This is the point nadss.... there is no point on investing on evasion because it doesn't work like its supposed to, in PvP....

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