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Why are sins so broken?

jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
If anyone could enlighten me on this I would really appreciate it.

I know in CN things might be a bit different, considering that some people already have g17.5 weapons there I tend to doubt it, tho.

I mean, if you are tanky enough and play, lets say a barb or BM, they are still somewhat ok but thats also only due to the fact that most sins suck and cant properly CC.

Anyways, seeing sins one-skill killing people with cursed Jail, Elimination or even knife throw at that on selfbuffs (mostly AA/LA classes) is just getting out of hand. I experienced this myself on some of my chars and that has been dealt through a full josd sin...nothing too fancy in terms of damage potential and thats WITHOUT debuffs nor any kinda of Sparking used.

Those multihit-skills specifically disable your def-charms completely and you can pretty much say that a comparably geared sin can easily charm bypass any other LA/AA class if just the finally hit zerkcrits. Literally any single time. ONE FRIGGIN SKILL.

Now, you can go ahead and say that you can just buff up to increase your survivability and while that is true...you are going to have a hard time killing a sin if he does the same. Simply no other class cept for maybe Duskblades have enough CC/Speed/Damage to kill a maxbuffed sin especially if they are josd sharded. While tidal is up? Forget it. A 30 second frame through skills, apo, stealth+ulti and genie to kill a sin is just excruciating especially if its a good player then it becomes literally impossible. Sins however still deal enough damage to kill even the tankiest targets with an efficient use of CC and Debuffs.

While I know most people dont care for 1v1 I gotta say that this doesnt only affect 1v1 scenarios. Sins also have a massive upperhand in mass-PvP. When a single deity-sharded sin needs 6+ endgame people to get killed solely cause no CC can stop him from running away then, in all honesty, something is terribly wrong. I dare to imagine a 80 Def lvl g17.5 weapon with purify spell on a sin. Can't disarm, can't CC, can't debuff and if you do has a chance to break free with max speed on potentially 200+ def lvl and max buffs. There is only one word for that: Stupidity.

IS CN going to perform any kind of nerfing, that is neccessary since ages, in the recent future? NO! They will make sins even stronger. I can't stop shaking my head. Seriously.

Anyone please explain to me how they can break this class more and more. While our versions are different...they still have an equivalent power-creep. The devs can't really be that dumb to boost up different classes just because a majority of the players could be fighting max geared players with r8r gears. How can they disregard gear difference that much..in a game like this.

Well, I came to a point in which I won't consider 1v1ing sins anymore on all my chars cept my Barb. With the barb...the sin at least has to be somewhat good-ish to land a kill, even if he outgears me. Why would any other class bother? Getting randomly oneshot for no reason at all is no fun. No fun at all. However, I can imagine that being even worse for all those 1v1-only sins out there since the status sins are on atm takes out any challenge for them whatsoever. Poor sins. Good for all those pride-less players that just wanna get kills in at all cost.

I don't expect this post to change anything, just wanna hear about fellow players how they think about this sin-situation at this point of the game.

Comments

  • mooglemongermooglemonger Posts: 111 Arc User
    I think the Assassin is just a popular class to cash shop. On all the servers there are lot's sins with really nice star charts, Aeu or better card set usually r/aed at least once, then combo that with diety/ josd shards and +12 refine and have alot of spirit.
    Any class with the gear I just mentioned would be a " demi god" but some how I think you already knew this.

    Like its been mentioned, things are different in China. They don't have our powercreep and lets be honest, how would you even balance this version? How do you balance the cash shop? How do you balance what people are willing to spend?

    There is a reason why the developers don't bother to balance our version. They just simply can't, the damage has been done, Pandora's box has been opened. Just my opinion. I play a wiz and I've seen them get some balancing skills that puts them back on the playing field. I guess just hope that other classes get buffed up around the Assassin ( and Duskblade, Stormbringer, Cleric, Seeker) in the future...
  • scythepwiscythepwi Posts: 5 Arc User
    I think the Assassin is just a popular class to cash shop. On all the servers there are lot's sins with really nice star charts, Aeu or better card set usually r/aed at least once, then combo that with diety/ josd shards and +12 refine and have alot of spirit.
    Any class with the gear I just mentioned would be a " demi god" but some how I think you already knew this.

    Like its been mentioned, things are different in China. They don't have our powercreep and lets be honest, how would you even balance this version? How do you balance the cash shop? How do you balance what people are willing to spend?

    There is a reason why the developers don't bother to balance our version. They just simply can't, the damage has been done, Pandora's box has been opened. Just my opinion. I play a wiz and I've seen them get some balancing skills that puts them back on the playing field. I guess just hope that other classes get buffed up around the Assassin ( and Duskblade, Stormbringer, Cleric, Seeker) in the future...

    Well, that is a kind of misconception alot of people have...just because their r9 gear doesnt have that much added magic and is a bit more defensive and that they usually don't have blessings like jones/O'malley's doesnt mean that they dont have our powercreep. That is especially true since there are Heavenfall blessings and like I said before, they already have some g17.5 weapons which means that they have an even bigger powercreep than we do. r9 for our version is easily considered average. Now imagine some max geared players on PWCN fighting the majority of people that is just r8r geared...just wth?

    Here or PWCN. A max geared sin can still Oneshot equally geared LA/AA classes with those kind of skills. there is no difference, really. That's exactly why I dont understand this massive imbalancing.

    Even if they make it so that more spineless, win-at-all-costs people get their cheap thrills just from playing a class that requires 0 skill roll the class and actually spend money on it then it's still weird. The other 12 classes will get ultra-annoyed and eventually leave the game.

    Well, idk :(
  • mooglemongermooglemonger Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    @scythepwi my point with the powercreep is in the chinese version that top tier gear is not their norm. Most people will not have that. So the new skills, skill adjustments, make sense to them.

    I hear you on the part of being frusturated. Yea it sucks constantly being one shot, then watch that same sin tank a squad for a few minutes before it finally goes down.

    Like I said, Pandora's box has been opened and this game will continue to lose players. It has been since packs existed and gold shot up in price. This publisher ( PWE, Arc w/e they call themselves) chose the quick dollar over longevity, but hey we just had our eight year anniversary so what do I know?
  • dblazen1dblazen1 Sh*tposting at the speed of light.Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    You answered your own question, so why are you making this thread?
    CN does not have this problem == CN will not implement nerfs.

    Blame PWE for making this a ridiculous power creep fest. One of the few cases you can actually blame PWE and their cashshop policy.​​
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  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    That all may be true, I don't disagree but still...even from CNs PoV...how can you "balance" a game in a way that a class is now able to kill people that are 5x times better geared than them just because the majority is lower geared? CN has alot more CSers than our version..why are they not ultrapissed? I mean they have to spend ridiculous amounts to get that hardcore advantage there and a Class like a sin with r8r GoF dagger can most likely kill an unskilled, nearly max geared archer (for example) there if lucky.

    Don't get me wrong. I am all up for balancing the game more towards skill and not gear..but it's pretty one sided here. No other class (cept db in the case of an Archer) can even put as much as a tent into an endgame archer before they get obliterated. So the biggest question isnt only why CN imbalanced classes..its why it mainly only imbalances Assassins. Really..any other class and even Duskblades are OK to some point (duskblades are ok compared to sins cause when you spam skills brainlessly you will get destroyed easily whilst sins can just oneskill-kill nearly anything) but sins...well ._. They must've had a reason why they buffed sins..and that is what I dont understand..what kind of reason could they've had for this nonsense :D
  • evilsmakersevilsmakers Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    well its a Yes and a No in the same time.....


    Defensive wise


    We do always hear such words *i lost cuz tidal was ****/Tidal didn't work/China Tidal and such*

    Tidal is 66%,which isn't low...but still it's a Luck defensive skill,so when you play,you can't really tell how the fight can ends,i do understand that genie do work to fix such lack,but at some point if you got stuned twice in a row its 100% The end of the fight

    Lets look to other classes

    Wiz---->Got Phy shield which is 100% defensive skill that don't depend on luck ,The reduce crit damge(can stack with the new passive prolly) which is also 100% skill not don't depend on luck.


    BM
    >Leaps are just a HUGE **** advantage and its 100% to happen(ignore the tidal/mind effect) ,Buddha's Guard


    seeker---->the def lvl buff /last stand/

    and i can go among all class and all of their defensive skills are just 100% chance to happen,which allows you to really plan on ur fight without having the *IF The skill works ima do this and then this after*



    Offensive wise

    Sins Do really have huge damge duo to Wolf emblem and chill of the Deep,but Its hard to make sin be able to Hurt HA Classes ,and in the same time Don't 1-3 shot AA classes,so fixing their damge is something close to impossible task.

    As for the offensive of sin class vs other classes


    Wiz--->Can 1 shot classes easily with *spark genie skill*

    Seeker--->sacrifice slash and how epic it is(if it was done right most of the time 1 shot)

    Bm---->Hf+Para Combo


    DB--->The locks and how godly it is xD


    what ever i mentioned up is part of great offensive skills that need NO luck to happen and once it occurs, it's a win, if we ignore a hit that miss which is not that much to worry about,while if you look at sin Its a ZerkCrit which REALLY Hurt, and what chance of it ?25% for zerk and let say 80% for Crit and to have a zerkcrit happening its for sure under 20% to happen,then the chance to get that while def charm is on CD,which make the chance even less.


    Even after Tidal ends,and you trying to Lock an AA class,you won't be sure How to use ur genie ,either for offensive and get a kill before Re-Tidal,but then IF purify will Hit you going to get REKT,cuz you have no mana left on genie,Or keep locking while saving genie in case purify hits so you can defend your self till tidal goes up

    As for such scenario The luck associated to it is just really huge,you might not be familiar with it since you never played sin,but its like something similar to your Barb para proc rate,its like you have every chance to win but then para Don't occur and whatever debuffs you used will go in vain



    Lastly AGAIN cuz i know someone will come and say its your class and you are defending it,which not really the case..i like my class to have less luck base skills and more 100% skills,i never like to let a fight be decided by luck instead of great planning and skills.






    Post edited by evilsmakers on
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  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    Well, sins damage and survi is only a problem when the gear is too extreme. So to say..sins get the most out of endgame gears by far compared to all the other classes. IF a sin only has 20k HP, 60 def lvl and barely 20k pdef/mdef and "only" 30k base damage then you can still beat the sin if you outplay him because the sin will most likely die before he can do major shananigans. However, if you are fighting a 45k+ base damage sin with 30k+ HP, 30k+ on defenses and 120+ Def level...while such a sin can still OneSkill-Kill most LA/AA classes if lucky it will become nearly impossible to outplay all defensive mechanism a sin has. Bypassing tidal, deaden, def charms, genie, apo, stealth, ulti, anti-stun AND dealing enough damage, knowing that once your genie is in Cooldown you most likely die from a single counter-stun duration is literally impossible.

    This is the only reason that sins are so strong. They can easily outplay each and every cooldown..even from duskblades (but they are the only real challange since they can reset CD via ulti and if a sin uses IG + ulti to bypass the first tidal gap and the dusk resets skill then the fight ends on the next tidal gap for sure). I wouldnt complain if sins would still need to perform a decent lock to win a fight...like Stunport, tackling, subsea, sting, innerharmony, throatcut, rising, cursed then yeah, totally fine. But the fight mostly ends right after subsea with just a crit from the next hit being enough to kill most people already.

    I stopped playing sin right after primal was released because the class became way too easy (played sin on other server). Before that you actually had to use all the CC you have to win a fight but, as mentioned above, it got easier and easier for sins to kill people. Heck you are not even forced to use Occult Ice anymore vs HA targets because of that ridiculous damage.

    the worst thing about all this is that PWI players dont even use the full potential of the Assassin class. 2 gear sets, full deity/devil stone r8rr aps set (5.0 basic Sage is so easy now with r9.4) and a full r9.3 gear set with full josd/serenity stones. Now use your hardware makrotool to switch between those sets with a press of a button and you are literally unbeatable in 1v1 and can still rock like crazy in any other aspect of the game. Ultra-expensive. Yes. But also friggin uber-broken. 5.0 aps with 35k+ base damage on 200+ Attack level is damage beyond comprehension. AA classes can trigger purify spell all they want because they are dead before they can even move after a stun. Sins are just too strong. they are OK if you have a massive gear advantage but can still kill you if they are really good. On same gears you better be a barb and now how to use your Cooldowns and be friggin tanky if you wanna win :D
  • saxrollsaxroll Posts: 1,190 Arc User
    I wouldnt say sin only becomes a problem at max gear, as long as sin has the dmg to drop enemy they are favorites to win on pretty much any matchup out there. They got way too much CC, combined with ridiculous damage, which alone is justification to call the class broken. On top of that they got all the "get out of jail free" cards, which makes dropping even **** geared sins take fair bit of time. Never forgetting tidal, which is imo the strongest buff in game.

    I played sin myself years back and I have to admit it became relatively boring. The class was way too strong back then and they have only buffed them since. And mind you mine was the cookiecutter demon sin made for farming, which was still dropping players who outgeared her. Heck, I 1vs2d 2 seekers both of whom outgeared me. Didnt genie, didnt apoth, killed both. The class has always been broken, its pretty ridiculous its getting major buffs each patch.

    As for the ultimate aps build, Etherblade has one. Not sure if they are full +12 but mostly if not full. Full deity, 5aps base sage and never leaves sz w/o psy buffs that I`ve noticed. The impact on mass PK is the biggest I have ever seen because you cant just DPS it down despite it wearing relatively weak armors, you cant CC it and you cant tank it. Basically the moment their target has no genie the target is as good as dead if they arent +12 JOSD HA. With the jumps, stealths and so on its hard to even apoth beforehand as throwing on useless apo that was never needed is always fun.
    BlackList vs Frenzied 3/17

  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    saxroll wrote: »
    I wouldnt say sin only becomes a problem at max gear, as long as sin has the dmg to drop enemy they are favorites to win on pretty much any matchup out there. They got way too much CC, combined with ridiculous damage, which alone is justification to call the class broken. On top of that they got all the "get out of jail free" cards, which makes dropping even **** geared sins take fair bit of time. Never forgetting tidal, which is imo the strongest buff in game.

    I played sin myself years back and I have to admit it became relatively boring. The class was way too strong back then and they have only buffed them since. And mind you mine was the cookiecutter demon sin made for farming, which was still dropping players who outgeared her. Heck, I 1vs2d 2 seekers both of whom outgeared me. Didnt genie, didnt apoth, killed both. The class has always been broken, its pretty ridiculous its getting major buffs each patch.

    As for the ultimate aps build, Etherblade has one. Not sure if they are full +12 but mostly if not full. Full deity, 5aps base sage and never leaves sz w/o psy buffs that I`ve noticed. The impact on mass PK is the biggest I have ever seen because you cant just DPS it down despite it wearing relatively weak armors, you cant CC it and you cant tank it. Basically the moment their target has no genie the target is as good as dead if they arent +12 JOSD HA. With the jumps, stealths and so on its hard to even apoth beforehand as throwing on useless apo that was never needed is always fun.

    Yap, pretty much. That guy really should consider getting a jaded r9 set to switch as well. that will make him even deadlier. Just saying.

    Fixing sins is so easy actually. Make tidal to let through purge and paralyze 100% and remove chill of the deep. Then, aps sins can still devastate people BUT they would have to be cautious. One Para jump from a DB can end their life when they get caught in Aps-gear. At the very least it would balance out the damage issue for the majority of non-aps sins a bit and would also create a more balanced and fair situation between the classes. Any class has to pay attention to paralyze if they dont wanna get destroyed or at the very least massively interrupted with what they were doing. Sin would still be strong with a 60 second kind-of immunity to everything else (especially considering debuffs) but they could be stopped by any paralyze skill. No more careless gameplay for anyone. We need this.

    The majority of sins would QQ but the majority of sins are also skill-less noobs so even if they quit we dont miss out too much. The majority of hardcore CSers play different classes anyways. Sins are a minority (depending on the server), really. This minority pis.ses off the other players tho and made alot of people quit already. Unfair.

    And hey!!! If they fix sins and they become a challange to play I might even gear my own sin a little :D
  • weapon762weapon762 Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I just laugh when anybody says of hey look seekers got last stand Looooooool u do understand u can't use this skills successfully with a charm on right?

    last stand isn't a defensive skill, it's literally if your charm breaks and your about to die and u have nothing else left to spam to stay alive (any seeker will know exactly what I mean cause like how many defensive options are even available to us gg)


    Because a charm pops first before your almost dead enough even use the last stand's primary secondary ability which is heal+anti stun (don't block silence or paralyze mind you ) (and don't give up purify which tbh it actually should).

    Also your can't even use this skill while being silenced or stun or paralyzed to break you out.

    And don't give me that oh hey but u can activate the skill whenever ! ( specially not when being gank locked)

    Because if you do that before a charm tick it will double tick your charm and heal exactly at the same time charm does which will not only double tick your charm,
    But it will also not activate last stands anti stun and only instead will heal you.

    Again that will only just double tick your charm and let somebody 1 shot u or hit u with multi hit skills since at that moment u just made your self even MORE vulnerable since your almost dead and by that time your def charms are already burnt and on cd.

    Number 2
    Stop bringing up seeker with adrenal rush's 40 more def lvs like that actually means anything ,( except in the land of make belive) cause u ever heard of that thing called spirit? Oh yeah that that thing that is worth 10 spirit =1 atck and 1 defensive level , cause guess what?

    You can actually have more spirit than attack and defensive levels meaning those mean nothing anymore, unless u have an ungodly amount of def lvs and then you sacrifice def for attack, see that's fine for every other class except seeker, because our only debuff ARE attack and defensive levels and we cannot debuff spirit!

    So again with freaking spirit thrown into the mix it's an auto nerf for seekers and since 40 def lvs don't stop u from getting cc, and killed evertually from it , and being we are the easiest class to get cced, and we just have to stand, knowing full well we don't have leaps and **** to get us out of somthing like that.

    ( I've actually had a cleric sog me and actually literally dance around me knowing full well I'm not gonna break out, then sent a bm, sb , Db and a mystic and a veno over to air lock , purge and amp, hf, tornado paralock me, only reason I was even able to take all that and survive was nw timer ran out and ported us all out.

    Amazing for a HA class to not be able to tank quite as good as it sound right ?
    Vae Victis.
  • weapon762weapon762 Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    And another thing have you ever seen what tidal does to edged blur ? It eats it a what 6 hit skill that can be completely ignored.
    I had a fight with sin recently in nw he's a friend of mine and I know he's a good player and I out gear him alot now we killed everybody else out of our instance in bridge battle so it's just the 2 of us so it's a clear 1 on 1.

    Def charms stop me from, even with my usually overwhelming atck lvs ( 290 if i focus ) from simply unintstalling him, the guy has garnets and vit stones and random shards but high lvs ones.

    My first attack usually is heartseeker because I'm not stupid enough to poke with a less bankable clearly more fail acc skill like rock splitting and stagger, even while spammable and also being p.attack skills (which technically is a LA weakness vs m.attack skills) I know any p. attack skill I throw, will simply more than likely miss due to high evasion and I use them only when I am forced too.

    Second I know I cannot debuff him due to tidal anywhere near as I could any other class for 1 pop into stealth bam wait it out.

    He also has the options of stun locking me by jumping to me first and locking me, and my voidstep again vs tidal is not an assured way of ending his life.

    Also he has multi spark options to use in case of debuff and and spark blocking sacrifice slash or purifying it so that's out too, interrupting channeling is also out as tidal again can block it.

    Keep in mind passively def charms he's has to use in between those attacks I do .

    I have edged blur which is commonly used against anything without magical defenses ok so it means my method to attack is bacially gonna be this.

    I run at him full force with a timed unfettered anti stun to block his just-in-case-telestun and would counter giving me still much needed momentum.

    Heartseeker + blade affinity (bleh tidal i need it for the chan ) when I'm only a few feet away to rewinding gesture to increase my crit rate and reuse unfetter anti stun again when I'm right near him, knowing full well he has spark and I mean to make him blow that because I want those def charms on cd first and with spark gone I have to make him blow his inner harmony to panic him to spark , not to mention his ad and pots (I'm just saying look at those options).

    I have soul server stance on because I plan on chaining after edged blur and procing geminislash for that extra damage which is a metal hit so will do more damage.

    So after I use blade affinity I am already in melee distance I use edged blur +occult ice in rapid succession (now I made sure his back was to a wall to prevent him from simply running plus I wrecked his towers almost about to win so he had to fight me)

    I use my fav combo of dark cloud bolt to A.O.E to interrupt, and stalagstrike because A.O.E tend to still hit LA even though they can miss alot those less frequently than spam ables like rock and stagger, to Gemini slash did u know every single proc missed simply on tidal alone he survived that very very quick about of procs in a short time thanks to being slightly tanky and buffs and tidal on and having slightly higher spirit that I do.

    The verdict ? Even single proc in that combo failed where I know any other class it wouldn't, it may not kill them but won't be broken due to a basically passive skill.

    Heartseeker immobilization failed ( 100% skill% remember? GG) , so did the occult ice I use a absurdly high lvs one too so it pretty much never misses , he managed to get a sleep proc on me after edged blur but every single attack was eaten by tidal from blur meaning he took 0 damage from a skill which alone could kill him.

    Dark cloud bolt failed, meaning no interrupt during when I KNEW he would counter with sleep, stalagstrike simply missed due to high evasion and my obvsoiuslly fail seeker acc, geminislash slash he spark blocked knowing I'm running out of things to disable him quickly with , because it's stupid drawing out a fight out with a sin that clearly has tons of options and advantages and knows it.

    I threw my last card down and quickly changed into my defensive gear which grants me 184 def lvs( will be 190 when I finish passives) so I can utilize my sacrifice slash by dropping my def lvs shortly and increasing my atck lvs to 270 so I can attempt to end this fight quickly by debuffing and using metal skills, and I throw out fortify so he cannot lock me for a few seconds while I set up my combo also it would drop his magic def by 37% increasing my damage even more.

    Sacrifice slash and quid pro quo and fortify debuff failed as well.

    Now I was able to get out of 1 of his locks simply cause he's does not do insane damage Ike many engame sins because he's not max geared so I was able to tank him.

    Tidal ate a total of 11 gaurnteed procs that would work on any other class .

    Then when I regrouped I finally tagged him with heartseeker proc, but failed 12 more procs, missing rock and stagger hits completely after switching to northern sky stance, hit him with ion which brought him near death and battousai which only killed his deaden then he igs, then pops stealth I blow a pot on that , then uses ultimate meaning his def charms are kicking in during the period of time he pops outta stealth and back in so any hits are nerfing.


    About to tag him again and uses AD and by this time still has access to inner harmony meaning bacially double 3 spark I saved avatar of the blade increasing my weapon damage 500% but then he silences me meaning I clearly can't attack regardless of all my damage now since and he knows he can pop stealth soon and my radiant eye was on cd.

    I finally get out and attack him again missing 3 more times hit's and miss 5 more times procing due to tidal he , finally can stealth again and runs.

    Tidal ate 28 procs and only taking 2
    Me and him laughed about it later he said he was sweating bullets in rl cause I should have him dead to rights so many times cause he knew tidal saved him.

    If he was a max engame sin he would be the only one laughing.
    Vae Victis.
  • jsxshadowjsxshadow Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    Seeker got a crapton of antistuns now. Seeker got a revamped sacrificial slash which allows max def lvl seeker to nearly oneshot any other class if they ger a decent hit in. Seeker are by far the tankiest class and benefit the most from def lvl. Seeker have a relatively easy time vs sins if you use the right genie/strategy/built. If you have issues hitting LA classes with your physical skills then stat 300 dex and use golden soulgems in your weapon just like any decent endgame seeker would. Missing someone deals 0 damage. restatting to 300 dex will reduce your average damage by 12% but you will hit 4 times as much. GG?

    Spirit is long since outdated since everyone is 1.6k+ due to twilight sky. Literally any stat is better now compared to spirit. Especially att lvl, def lvl, phys/magic attack, defenses and accuracy.

    The game changes and everyone still wants to fight as if it didnt. your skills changed. the enemies skills changed. Adapt to it! Seeker are amongst the strongest classes now if you can abuse all their advantsges to the max. Skill spamming and hoping for a lucky SS/QPQ will get you nowhere when you are fighting good players.
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