g15 vs g16. Zerk or +40 Attack Level ???

filipenogueras · December 2016

The question may have more than 1 answer.
eg: talking about pvp

- Zerk works best vs low def lvl targets (citrine/vit stone/atk lvl/garnet & saph shards build)
- +40 atk lvl works best vs higher def lvl targets (def lvl shards build)

Now talking about pve is where I get really confused.

- For apsing, which one would make the highest dps
- For skill spaming... Basically it would follow the result of the "apsing" but when you spam skills you go for a combo where after several debuffs/buffs you land a few big hits (the zerk gets very interesting here)

So, the questions are:
For pve
1) Which one has the best dps under auto attacks ?
2) How harder g16 hits under skill spaming? (is it enough to forget about the zerk combos from the g15 ?)

eternalghost · December 2016

Basically in just about all examples G16 will win vs g15 zerk not just because of the attack levels but because of the higher refine rate. Add in that you get 3 rolls on top of attack level means that even if you got double dex on the g15 you could of gotten triple dex on the g16, which means your potentially down like 400 patk at the cost of GoF which by itself isn't the most useful thing.

Tldr g16 wins in all examples unless you start to get r9/warsoul/g17 involved.

fairymaster1 · December 2016

I would like to add that not only is g16 have higher dph and dps, the damage is more consistent.

filipenogueras · December 2016

It's not that simple guys trust me. I've tested APS sin and g15 outdamaged the g16 by alot.
PS: the g15 I used had only Sacrificial Strike and not God of Frenzy...

I wish I could invoke Aster now : c

keihan007#7641 · December 2016

filipenogueras wrote: »

It's not that simple guys trust me. I've tested APS sin and g15 outdamaged the g16 by alot.
PS: the g15 I used had only Sacrificial Strike and not God of Frenzy...

I wish I could invoke Aster now : c

I would be interested in what kind of build thats even possible. The only situation where G15 would out dps G16 is if G15 had more -int than G16 and thus had more aps than the G16 version. People have done so much math regarding this subject and nobody I can remember has ever gotten conclusion where G15 is stronger if and when attack rate was the same fot both weapons. Obviously zerk crits are higher than just crits from G16 but G16 has significantly higher damage outside of zerks.

filipenogueras · December 2016

The test was made on private server. I got surprised myself, because after making some math I was so sure that they would be very similar with the g16 having a little advantage. So the choice would be between the g15 spike dmg vs the g16 consistent dmg, but I got the following results...

The g15 had +12 with drakeflames and Sacrificial Strike (5.0 aps)
1 spark on TT boss > 1,2mi dmg

The g16 had +12 with drakeflames (5.0 aps)
1 spark on TT boss > 900k dmg

That's 33,33% more dmg.
Ps: The server had no Blessing (+30 atk lvl)
Used exactly the same boss
Same character with same stats
Numbers may vary a little. It was long time ago I can't be precise.

filipenogueras · December 2016

My biggest doubt is when it comes to spaming skills

keihan007#7641 · December 2016

filipenogueras wrote: »

The test was made on private server.

The g15 had +12 with drakeflames and Sacrificial Strike (5.0 aps)
1 spark on TT boss > 1,3mi dmg

The g16 had +12 with drakeflames (5.0 aps)
1 spark on TT boss > 900k dmg

That's 44.44% more dmg.
Ps: The server had no Blessing (+30 atk lvl)
Used exactly the same boss
Same character with same stats

I am gonna say there is plenty of random involved in DPSing a boss even if those results are weird. The less attack levels involved, the stronger G16 becomes by comparison due the nature of attack levels I am curious though, was the toon full deity? Because that might explain a lot of things.

filipenogueras · December 2016

It had 18 attack levels from shards. Full deity would give 48.
It wasn't a "1 time test". Those are average results as well.

eternalghost · December 2016

I would argue that you did not set up the private server yourself, so how do you know the odds for GoF/Sac to proc are the same. What you said about g16 being out damaged by g15 in the same aps and refine seems very far fetched as well since g16 refines soooo much higher then g15, and 40 Atk levels as a constant damage increase over a random proc does not seem possible. Also one test is nothing, you need to find a constant. Not just this one sacrificial procced a lot so it out dd'd g16. You'd probably have to roll the same odds as winning the lottery to make that happen. If anything id expect the results to be even based on proc chance and how Atk levels affect damage, but g16 just has so much more fire power.

Last but certainly not least you have to take into account the final add on the g16. Let's say you get double int on both daggers, you still have the extra add on g16. If that is +20 magic then you will deal a lot less damage. If it's +20 dex your going to be dealing a very significant amount more damage.

Tldr it's very situational, and I can see in some circumstances that g15 with GoF or Sac could potentially out dd g16, but overall g16 will win almost all the time.

fairymaster1 · December 2016

I had ss int and patt on my g15 niv daggers(+10 5aps demon) and they and no way out aps'd my r8 (+11 4aps demon) and don't come close to my g16's (+10 2x int, range 4aps sage). I have done similar tests on various priv servers and their dmg is always different than here at pwi using the same builds.

I always did the tests on the dog in sp. It is one of the few non-? mini-bosses that have enough hp to do a decent analysis. It was not till g16 niv I could take the boss down through a single spark apsing. This was 3+ years ago and that boss was generally the same across the servers I tested on. It was generally not messed with.

filipenogueras · December 2016

eternalghost wrote: »

I would argue that you did not set up the private server yourself, so how do you know the odds for GoF/Sac to proc are the same. What you said about g16 being out damaged by g15 in the same aps and refine seems very far fetched as well since g16 refines soooo much higher then g15, and 40 Atk levels as a constant damage increase over a random proc does not seem possible. Also one test is nothing, you need to find a constant. Not just this one sacrificial procced a lot so it out dd'd g16. You'd probably have to roll the same odds as winning the lottery to make that happen. If anything id expect the results to be even based on proc chance and how Atk levels affect damage, but g16 just has so much more fire power.

Last but certainly not least you have to take into account the final add on the g16. Let's say you get double int on both daggers, you still have the extra add on g16. If that is +20 magic then you will deal a lot less damage. If it's +20 dex your going to be dealing a very significant amount more damage.

Tldr it's very situational, and I can see in some circumstances that g15 with GoF or Sac could potentially out dd g16, but overall g16 will win almost all the time.

Read again.
I said it wasn't a 1 time test. (wasn't = was not)
I said those are average numbers.

And I agree with everything you said but the numbers showed me I was wrong. At least for aps.
I don't think 20dex or w/e stats you choose, would make it go from 900k to 1.2mi+, not even close.

PS: The private server had same numbers as pwi, because I used "pwdatabase.com/pwi" to look for the stuff. And the proc rate of the SS was very lower than what i'm used to have with my GoF in pwi, so I guess it was also pwi's copy.

filipenogueras · December 2016

fairymaster1 wrote: »

I had ss int and patt on my g15 niv daggers(+10 5aps demon) and they and no way out aps'd my r8 (+11 4aps demon) and don't come close to my g16's (+10 2x int, range 4aps sage). I have done similar tests on various priv servers and their dmg is always different than here at pwi using the same builds.

I always did the tests on the dog in sp. It is one of the few non-? mini-bosses that have enough hp to do a decent analysis. It was not till g16 niv I could take the boss down through a single spark apsing. This was 3+ years ago and that boss was generally the same across the servers I tested on. It was generally not messed with.

You said your g15+10(5.0aps) was worse than your r8+11(4.0aps) ?
And now you're 4.0 g16 and you're hitting more than 5.0 g15 ?
Is that correct ?

filipenogueras · December 2016

I guess i'll end up downloading a private server based on pwi again to make updated testes with precise numbers. Even tho I didn't want to spend too much time on it.

fairymaster1 · December 2016

filipenogueras wrote: »

You said your g15+10(5.0aps) was worse than your r8+11(4.0aps) ?
And now you're 4.0 g16 and you're hitting more than 5.0 g15 ?
Is that correct ?

yes that is correct. I would like to also note that if I remember right, the g15 morai daggers had the possibility to exceed g16 niv (pve only)with the right add's if the player is a dot build, as how attack levels and slaying levels stack. One day I may try this as I do have them.

keihan007#7641 · December 2016

fairymaster1 wrote: »

filipenogueras wrote: »

You said your g15+10(5.0aps) was worse than your r8+11(4.0aps) ?
And now you're 4.0 g16 and you're hitting more than 5.0 g15 ?
Is that correct ?

yes that is correct. I would like to also note that if I remember right, the g15 morai daggers had the possibility to exceed g16 niv (pve only)with the right add's if the player is a dot build, as how attack levels and slaying levels stack. One day I may try this as I do have them.

Morai dags definitely have chance to exceed even G16 nowdays for PvE. The reason for this is all the physical attack we get from things like star charts, cards, titles and so on. Obviously you gonna need extremely high refines on top of pretty major gear for Morai dags to be better but its definitely possible. Not practical but possible.

fairymaster1 · December 2016

saxroll wrote: »

Morai dags definitely have chance to exceed even G16 nowdays for PvE. The reason for this is all the physical attack we get from things like star charts, cards, titles and so on. Obviously you gonna need extremely high refines on top of pretty major gear for Morai dags to be better but its definitely possible. Not practical but possible.

Well all the passives, spirit and stuff is not where the high dmg comes from the standpoint of dagger comparison. It comes from the 60 slaying levels. By itself those 20 extra levels more than likely overcome the lower base damage values(unrefined) and I think may very well exceed it.

I think the best add's for the Morai's would be between 3x dex, 3x max patt or a combination of the two on a dot sharded build. The max patt on my r8's helped with some freakish peak dmg auto attacking. I am also all dot(except 6 shards) in pve gear.

Even unrefined with junk stats on the morai's, on my dot build they do pretty nice damage. I will eventually switch back to corona so i can reroll the stats on them to do some real comparisons one day. This may be a while I am working on r9 daggers now that I have returned from a 2 year absence.

jabq · December 2016

Here is my experience with g15 2nd cast, sac strike vs g16. It is on a standard 5 aps bm build. Only the weapon changed.

Below are what i saw in my squad with regards to maintaining agro on warsong bosses. We did not test refine level by refine level. Those were the levels that people refined at over the time.

G15 at +5 refine <= g16 +1 refine
G15 at +7 refine < g16 +3 refine
G15 at +10 refine < g16 + 7 refine

G15 at +12 refine < G16 +10 refine

G15 damage is also finicky for a sin. Before when i dual cliented with my sin bm team. I had to use pots frequently when sin was using g15 sac daggers. When i used g16 daggers, leaving sin on auto became an easy option.

The above is not formal testing, just normal observations through game play.

If you really want to test the weapon different. Remove all gear, and hit an opponent where damage can be calculated consistently. There are a few monsters in the world with high hp and very low damage where you can do this in pwi. Not sure about private servers, never played on those.

mooglemonger · December 2016

Same aps. Same refine level the g16 with 40 attack levels wins everytime. Tbats consistent damage. Sure the g15 with gof will show you a lil spike damage here and there but guaranteed after 1 sec of auto attack from both daggers the g16 will have caused more damage.

skyte325 · December 2016

This comes down to play style. Just like any other decisions. As others have stated, g15 will have good spike damage, but only when the zerk happens. I prefer constancy. Is also why I chose a wand for my magic classes. So if you like to gamble, stick with your g15.

Another note, dealing with slaying levels. As a sin, we can get 130 atk lv from g16 gear and (sage) chill. But switch weapon for 60 slaying, and can deal equivalent to 200 atk lv for PvE.

g15 vs g16. Zerk or +40 Attack Level ???

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