Wiz Question

npc15
npc15 Posts: 229 Arc User
I've been leveling a wiz alt (atm 77rb) and something I've been noticing is that I only ever use the 3 base attack skills (gush, pyrogram, stone rain). Other higher level skills take longer to cast and don't seem to really do so much more damage to make them worth it. It seems to me like I would be doing the most damage just spamming those 3 skills because of the quicker channel/cast times and the comparable damage (in my experience). Granted I only have level 10/11 skills (no primals) and am just using a g16 weap doing some pve, but am I misunderstanding things? I have seen no reason to use any other skills so far (just to dd i mean)​​
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Thanks Adilynne for the awesome sig :)
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Comments

  • hawke1000
    hawke1000 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Choice of skill during fights is going to be highly subjective in every situation. In some situations you might be forced to use skills with longer channeling despite having other options (which would be inferior in certain cases), for instance, facing a Wizard (who has Pyroshell enabled), your choice of skill usage will be Gush, Stone Rain & Sandfall and not Pyrogram (Pyrogram perhaps for CHI gain via Sage proc, if you're Sage that is). Similarly in a scenario where you have your opponent Stunlocked & you go for a 0 Channel combo, you might wanna go for the stronger skills over the ones that cast faster (Since the faster cast will be significantly less beneficial due to your 0 Chan [Essential Sutra or Sutra Pot] in effect). Then later on once you start reaching end game & get better gear/refines, the damage difference between skills becomes more and more apparent. With a R9rr weapon + 12 you will notice a significant difference between a Skill that adds 100% Weap damage and one that adds 800%, for example.

    Tons and tons of different situations for using these skills but to keep things simple: Pyrogram, Gush & Stone Rain are your primary skills that should be spammed most often. Cheers! :)


    ~ Ruby_Inferno
    Post edited by hawke1000 on
  • npc15
    npc15 Posts: 229 Arc User
    Well this is just a wiz alt with g16 for occasional pve so im not so worried about facing wizards with dif shells on. thanks for the info though​​
    WbG9jxx.png
    Thanks Adilynne for the awesome sig :)
    My Youtube Channel

    Tempest <3
  • hawke1000
    hawke1000 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    npc15 wrote: »
    Well this is just a wiz alt with g16 for occasional pve so im not so worried about facing wizards with dif shells on. thanks for the info though​​

    No problem my man! Yeah, that was just a typical scenario that came to mind, but sure with PvE it doesn't really matter much so you're good! :)
  • notanyfox#3644
    notanyfox#3644 Posts: 190 Arc User
    hawke1000 wrote: »
    Then later on once you start reaching end game & get better gear/refines, the damage difference between skills becomes more and more apparent. With a R9rr weapon + 12 you will notice a significant difference between a Skill that adds 100% Weap damage and one that adds 800%, for example.

    You are wrong. The matk of a R9rr weapon +12 also affects the base matk of the character. So it scales the same.
    Stupidity at its finest :
    "Deity sin vs Josd Dusk -> Dusk wins.
    Josd sin vs deity dusk -> Sin wins by far."
    Special Kid Joe 2016
  • hawke1000
    hawke1000 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    You are wrong. The matk of a R9rr weapon +12 also affects the base matk of the character. So it scales the same.

    Oh so you mean that the % weapon damage added remains the same despite the refines? I thought the % weapon damage is affected by the current value of weapon attack (refine inclusive).

    Edit: I just checked the equations on PWpedia and according to them refines do affect the % of Weapon Damage (seen as weapon attack on PWpedia), thus affecting amount of damage added. for anyone else reading, the equation is:

    weapon attack = attack from weapon + attack from shards in weapon + attack from rings and other equipment + character level

    Note that: weapon attack is "Weapon Damage" in the in-game skill descriptions.

    PWpedia states that the Weapon Attack is affected by factors including refines. Basically the independent variable attack from weapon is increased (with refines) that increases the overall Weapon Attack (Weapon Damage in skill descriptions), thus affecting the amount of % of weapon damage added.

    Now: Base Damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

    Note That: Base Damage is shown as Magic Attack under your player info.

    From this equation, yes the base damage is being affected by weapon attack (Weapon Damage), however, the skill descriptions clearly state % of weapon attack (Weapon Damage) being added on top of Base Damage, which is already being affected by the weapon attack (Weapon Damage), thus significantly increasing the total damage difference between skills with (lower % of weapon damage + less constant damage) vs (Higher % of Weapon Damage + higher constant damage), basically the added % weapon damage on top of base magic attack is what mainly makes the difference (also the higher constant damage from skills). Cheers!
    Post edited by hawke1000 on
  • notanyfox#3644
    notanyfox#3644 Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    hawke1000 wrote: »
    You are wrong. The matk of a R9rr weapon +12 also affects the base matk of the character. So it scales the same.

    Oh so you mean that the % weapon damage added remains the same despite the refines? I thought the % weapon damage is affected by the current value of weapon attack (refine inclusive).

    Edit: I just checked the equations on PWpedia and according to them refines do affect the % of Weapon Damage (seen as weapon attack on PWpedia), thus affecting amount of damage added. for anyone else reading, the equation is:

    weapon attack = attack from weapon + attack from shards in weapon + attack from rings and other equipment + character level

    Note that: weapon attack is "Weapon Damage" in the in-game skill descriptions.

    PWpedia states that the Weapon Attack is affected by factors including refines. Basically the independent variable attack from weapon is increased (with refines) that increases the overall Weapon Attack (Weapon Damage in skill descriptions), thus affecting the amount of % of weapon damage added.

    Now: Base Damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

    Note That: Base Damage is shown as Magic Attack under your player info.

    From this equation, yes the base damage is being affected by weapon attack (Weapon Damage), however, the skill descriptions clearly state % of weapon attack (Weapon Damage) being added on top of Base Damage, which is already being affected by the weapon attack (Weapon Damage), thus significantly increasing the total damage difference between skills with (lower % of weapon damage + less constant damage) vs (Higher % of Weapon Damage + higher constant damage), basically the added % weapon damage on top of base magic attack is what mainly makes the difference (also the higher constant damage from skills). Cheers!

    Hi LiquidLove :),

    Base Damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack
    With no constant add :
    Skill bonus damage = skill multiplier * weapon attack

    Skill damage = Base damage + Skill bonus damage
    Skill damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack + skill multiplier * weapon attack
    Skill damage = (attack multiplier + skill multiplier) * weapon attack

    Skill damage increases proportionally to weapon attack.
    So with 900 mag (base damage = 1000% weapon attack), a skill with 800% weapon attack and no constant will always do 63.636% more damage than a skill with 100% weapon attack and no constant. (18/11 =~ 1.63636)
    Stupidity at its finest :
    "Deity sin vs Josd Dusk -> Dusk wins.
    Josd sin vs deity dusk -> Sin wins by far."
    Special Kid Joe 2016
  • hawke1000
    hawke1000 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    I am not LiquidLove :D

    Yes I know the ratio of increased damage from 800% weapon damage vs 100% will remain constant, same Weapon Attack is being used in both cases. That was not what I was saying I was talking about the multiplier itself, as in 800% (or 8x) vs 100% (1x).

    and yeah, very good. 63.6% higher damage extra from multipliers only with the constant ignored, throw that in and the difference becomes larger between weaker and stronger spells, that was my main point. Thanks for the input! (Y)

  • notanyfox#3644
    notanyfox#3644 Posts: 190 Arc User
    hawke1000 wrote: »
    I am not LiquidLove :D

    Yes I know the ratio of increased damage from 800% weapon damage vs 100% will remain constant, same Weapon Attack is being used in both cases. That was not what I was saying I was talking about the multiplier itself, as in 800% (or 8x) vs 100% (1x).

    and yeah, very good. 63.6% higher damage extra from multipliers only with the constant ignored, throw that in and the difference becomes larger between weaker and stronger spells, that was my main point. Thanks for the input! (Y)

    If you consider the constant it depends on the value. Compare :
    pyrogram : base damage + 100% weapon attack + 3620
    mountain seize : base damage + 500% weapon attack +12149
    frozen flame : base damage + 800% weapon attack + 9779

    Both pyrogram and frozen flame scale higher with refines than mountain seize. One has less %weapon attack than ms, the other one has more.

    You are not LiquidLove but your logic is the same. :)
    Stupidity at its finest :
    "Deity sin vs Josd Dusk -> Dusk wins.
    Josd sin vs deity dusk -> Sin wins by far."
    Special Kid Joe 2016
  • hawke1000
    hawke1000 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2016
    Both pyrogram and frozen flame scale higher with refines than mountain seize. One has less %weapon attack than ms, the other one has more.

    How? can you explain a bit :o

    and you didn't quite get my point when I talked about 100% weapon damage vs 800%, I knew the ratio of increased damage via 800% weapon damage to 100% remains the same. I was talking about it in terms of actual damage dealt. For insance:

    With constant damage adds ignored:

    At some low level you deal: 1000 with the skill that adds 100% Weapon Attack, then the one with 800% Weapon Attack will deal 1000 x 1.636 = 1636 roughly. 636 extra damage dealt.

    At a higher level (with higher refines) you deal: 10000 with the 100% Weapon Attack, then the one with 800% Weapon Attack will deal 10000 x 1.636 = 16360. 6360 extra damage dealt.

    The "increased" damage with the same scaling factor has increased ten times in this case (Becomes more apparent, if you see my OP) & will become even more as Base damage increases (More towards end game). :)
    Post edited by hawke1000 on
  • choasdriver
    choasdriver Posts: 59 Arc User
    far as wiz goes gush pyro and stone are steady fast skills good for consistant DD in pve. as u enter higher lvled instances ie: using said wiz to farm fsp u might wanna consider fire combos .. ulti skill triplespark (white tea) essential sutra for instacast then undine strike follow by spam of insta channel fire skills .. pyrogram divinepyrogram ..will of phonix.. and possibly slip in frozenflame all in same insta cast with genie skill spark amping damage more u can drop toad or mushi in 3 or 4 seconds with seeker SS and bm hf. as ruby say pvp is all based on situtions for wizzy we are very versitile and macros jus dont do a wiz justice. we go by what is happening at the moment and adjust to the sitution occordingly anything else jus make u predictable.That said back to pve, there are other usefull skills for wiz in pve. Wiz also has thier renown dragons breath skill great for
    delta, pv, ect. anywhere mass mobs need mass murder. To be honest pve isnt what wiz is for we are decent for it but other class better. Wiz is best for mass pk, tw, xtw, nw. This is where wiz full talents shine.
  • sylenthunder
    sylenthunder Support Guru Posts: 3,061 Community Moderator
    Why all the necros today?​​
This discussion has been closed.