Veno skill update is a huge dissapointment.

socean#3691 · July 2016

Come on! This is that primal update all over again where venos got the short end of the stick.

Malefic crush- Who even uses this skill? This skill isnt worth any of my chi.
Dark Taboo- venos are casters none of them want to get up close to fight like a melee.
Stunning blow- Not worth any chi(unless it becomes a 8second paralyze wahahaha)
Ultimate- To be honest i find that skill useless and highly predictable. Id rather have the db ultimate.
Grudge Strike- This was a slight bonus to demon venos i guess, but not really all that helpful.

My personal feelings on these skills getting updated: WHY DO THEY HATE VENOS SO MUCH? Now honestly hey maybe they make these skills have some really good debuffs or something, but i doubt it. I was hoping they would finaly make Bramble Hood a one spark skill instead of two because db's get that much damage reduction as a passive for no chi. Maybe they couldve upgraded the damage on our skills we actually use. They hate venos thats the conclusion ive come to. They havent even updated our pets with spirit...

catgirldesu · July 2016

Weapon damage on Fox Form attack skills was something we should have gotten in the first Primal World update. Still, I don't want to completely dismiss the update without trying the skills myself.

The damage might come in handy in some situations. There are times someone escaped alive because I had to switch to human form to cast the finishing blow while my team mate got stunned, alas the charm ticked or the player used genie etc. before I could finish them. I don't excpect the damage to be noteworthy, but I rather try the skills out first. At least Malefic Crush looks a little promising.

I personally think Stunning Blow is nice, but I do think Malefic Crush needs an update to increase the Paralyze duration or something. I can see why the skill was given low duration, chance to proc and long cooldown when Paralyze was new... but now it's common, so I think an update on the skill is in order.

Our ultimate skill is nice, but not as crazy as people think. The most important part is the purge, and you have plenty of time to react to that. The skill is flashy, hard to miss. It's easy to interrupt it and I can't use an immune every time I want to cast it. It's mainly for the big crowd AOEs. Some classes got worse ultimate skills though so I'm not complaining... except for the fact that it kills my FPS.

I actually had brainstormed once about a hypothetical Venomancer update for Sage and Demon which included nerfs to some skills and improvements to others to bring the class in line with the current state of game. But I know I'd just get flooded with "Venos are OP pls nerf" if I posted it. When class balance is brought up, people just complain about how weak their class is and how OP the others are. Well, I'm likely biased too, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Ah, well. I ended up writing more than I had planned, but I'm stuck in my hotel room. It's raining outside so I can't go at the beach.

eirghan · July 2016

devapathpain1229 wrote: »

Come on! This is that primal update all over again where venos got the short end of the stick.

Malefic crush- Who even uses this skill? This skill isnt worth any of my chi.
Dark Taboo- venos are casters none of them want to get up close to fight like a melee.
Stunning blow- Not worth any chi(unless it becomes a 8second paralyze wahahaha)
Ultimate- To be honest i find that skill useless and highly predictable. Id rather have the db ultimate.
Grudge Strike- This was a slight bonus to demon venos i guess, but not really all that helpful.

My personal feelings on these skills getting updated: WHY DO THEY HATE VENOS SO MUCH? Now honestly hey maybe they make these skills have some really good debuffs or something, but i doubt it. I was hoping they would finaly make Bramble Hood a one spark skill instead of two because db's get that much damage reduction as a passive for no chi. Maybe they couldve upgraded the damage on our skills we actually use. They hate venos thats the conclusion ive come to. They havent even updated our pets with spirit...

I agree with some of your points seeing how Venomancer is played in our version, but I think some of your statements are more personal preference than ultimate truth.

Personally I think this has potential to be an excellent update to bring foxform skills improvement in any version, but most particularly in versions where fox/HA venos are actually a force to be reckoned with. That said, as a 100% support veno i DO use these skills (malefic crush, stunning blow, dark taboo) and am in fox quite a lot. Currently these skills do pretty much 0 damage and only offer the utlity side effects of each skill. Give me a bit of damage, increased heals... Looks good to me. If it improves it enough to be noticeable (even a little bit) I will give it my nod of approval.

noctusvenator · July 2016

I am kind of look forwards to the update on fox skills but find myself very dissapointed with how Venomancers are being left behind. The update to add weapon % damage to the skills was something we should have recieved with the skill upgrades into primal version.

Venomancer Pets are now all but useless in pvp when you fight anybody even close to being up to date with content. This needs to be addressed as the elysium expansion gave us a damage boost with venomous scarab while a pet is summoned. We have one of the slowest channel/cast times in the entire game, I believe that this is one of the reasons we have pets. The pets are supposed to deal the extra damage that we miss because we cast skills so slowly and lets be fair, we do not have amazing damage output.

Using a pataka as the main weapon offers beautiful high end spike damage but then there are the moments where we consistantly hit the lowest end of the spectrum and these are the moments that the pets are supposed to come into effect as they are meant to deal decent damage to make up for what we as a class just do not.

Unfortunatly Orinj has said in his 'Ask Me Anything' that there are no plans to upgrade venomancers or their pets and so I hold very little hope that these issues will ever be addressed.

People are still hung up on the fact that Venomancers were very OP 3-4 years ago when pet bleed would deal siginifcant damage that could easily kill people and so any hint that Venomancers will get any kind of significant boost has people back stepping and claiming how we are already strong enough and thus do not require any kind of skill/pet upgrades completly ignoring the fact that pets are now one shot and decent damage combos take a frustratingly long time to chain together because of the slow channel/cast times.

chary · July 2016

Never understood how people think Primal Malefic is a waste of chi. Could the paralyze proc on it be better? Sure. But it's a good skill regardless.

eirghan · July 2016

I have to agree with @chary (i keep wanting to tag your other name >.<!) a well placed maelific is the most beautiful thing ive ever seen and the perfect melee gank escape tactic. Paralyze and later haters

ballenato · July 2016

I've seen plenty venos using that paralyze skill. Specially when they're ganking you with other players. Most common combo i've seen is Purge-Paralyze-Amp then run away.

Veno ultimate is a POWERFULL skill. If u dont know what a crappy ultimate is, look at BMs.
Multiple debuffs, at all once, with 12 meters aoe range. How can this be bad? Ofc, it takes a while to apply all debuffs, what did u expect? 1 blink and apply 5 debuffs? keep dreaming '-' There has to be some balance/chance to defend yourself. Usually ppl try to IG/AD/Faith, ocne they notice a veno is casting the ulti.

U just need to time it right, that's all it takes. This is the moment to say, L2play.

Timing + allies assisting = No1 survives after that, those purge-amp-magic def reduction are a killer.

blazerboy · July 2016

Personally if venos weren't the cheapest class in the game to make a factor (full rank 9 +10 with atleast+11 orns) do that and follow simple purge nova and amp commands and ur loved.. So much skill so cost effective... Not saying this is fact but it's mainly as I see which in my opinion is horse ..... If you literally can get by with subpar gear for specific abilities only you effectively bring to the table

than you don't deserve major upgrades

catgirldesu · July 2016

Venomancer isn't the only class that can be played at the bare minimum. For quite some time I played a Cleric that was R9 +10/11 (not R9r3) with R8r defence level weapon, random A cards, and the ornaments I borrowed from my main. She was mostly a two-shot, but I still did pretty well (I had a TW video somewhere, but I can't go looking for it, I'm on mobile). During my time as a member of a smaller faction I've also seen some G16 Nirvana Blademasters do a pretty good job providing Roar & Heaven's Flame for the R9r3 players in squad (often using IG and timing it).

I respect your opinion, but Venomancers weren't the only "cheap" class I've witnessed. I don't believe developers should only measure the balance on how effective classes can be using sub-par gear, doing the bare minimum. While that can certainly be taken into consideration (one of the reasons I would support a Demon Ironwood nerf, which currently allows people to get kills despite a big gear gap), they also need to consider updates when classes are played with good gear, to the fullest extent of their abilities.

Let's also not forget that in other versions of PW, the average gear level they need for PvP is achievable by most. And I don't want updates to make the class overpowered, just good updates. Look at Natural Synergy; lower chi cost? Cool, but my pet is dead most of the time when I really need the skill (for the anti-stun) and using it as an opener is often wasted (when it's not 1vs1).

Obviously this applies to other classes as well, as there have been other classes getting poor updates on some of their skills, but I speak for Venomancers because that's my main.

socean#3691 · July 2016

I can only see how you would think Malefic is not a waste of chi as a sage. A demon using chi on that skill is definitly wasteful when you could use other skills. Sure the paralyze is somewhat useful(not really). Ive never been killed because of that skill. It has a paralyze, but it might as well not. I dont know how it could ever be worth a whole spark. Im taking this completely from a demon's perspective and 2seconds for a spark is not worth the effort of getting close to people with true paralyzes. The Irony in using it would be you going in for a paralyze and then getting paralyzed yourself lol. Do barbs use a spark for their 2sec paralyze? BM's use a spark for a 7 second paralyze that also deals more damage than our malefic crush. Not even going to mention db's who pretty much use every skill for no chi.

The Veno Ultimate im probably just jealous because dbs, sins, clerics,psychics,seekers,and stormbringer's got better ultimates. Of course atleast we didnt get the worst ultimate id say.

Ultimate's in order of opness:
1.DB 2.Sin 3.stormbringer 4.Cleric 5.Stormbringer 6.Seeker 7.Psychic 8.Venomancer 9.Barb 10.Wizard 11.Archer 12.Mystic 13.Bm

This is just opinion of course, but im pretty sure everyone could agree db is definitly #1

Of course im biased towards venomancer's since it is one of my favorite classes, but all of these recent updates have done very little. It's like they want to be fair and give everybody new skills, but because they despise venomancers they pick small upgrades to fox form skills knowing we hardly use them. Ive honestly never seen a version of pw where HA venos were a force to be reckoned with. It's kind of pointless when you cant have HA r9 gear. Even around the "olden days" I found them to be quite weak as i even killed G16+10 HA venos when i was just a tt90 veno. I say forget all of the fox form skill updates in this update they are planning and just give our pet's a spirit passive.

dregenfox · July 2016

To be fair, the skill updates are lackluster for almost every class except sins. Clerics got a very minor update to guardian light. Mystics got upgrades to a bunch of unusable skills. Seriously I've tried using the heal plants and 9/10 times they die before they even get one tick off. 40% evasion won't do jack. Salvation update would have been nice except that there's 0% chance the pet actually survives long enough to cast it's 3rd skill in any serious pvp.

Buff to sublime was the best thing in the patch for us. The buff to leech was more a quality of life change because our pets simply don't survive long enough for a 1-second channel anymore.

chary · July 2016

You either don't know how2demonveno or you need to gear up. Demon venos really don't have chi issues after the first set of primal updates provided they're geared well enough.

socean#3691 · July 2016

chary wrote: »

You either don't know how2demonveno or you need to gear up. Demon venos really don't have chi issues after the first set of primal updates provided they're geared well enough.

Yes the 20 chi from grudge strike is such a humungous improvement...not. It was a slight improvement as I said. Somehow this 20 chi is supposed to be our salvation on chi management is what your basically saying. Crush vigor is a chance your relying on a chance to get a spark back it is not consistant like sage fox form is for getting chi. Once you Nova thats over half of your chi gone just like that. Hey if you cast another skill you might have enough time to toss on bramble hood for some defense. Oh hey look you used all of your chi. Time to Crush Vigor...10 chi gained. Cloud Eruption. Honestly I dont know how i could possibly live without cloud eruption, but then i take away my genie for some chi. When it comes to veno's ive lost to like 1 consistantly ever and i have fought alot of venos.

jsxshadow · July 2016

Lol. I disagree here. Venos are perfectly fine. They are still a class that rocks in 1on1s and mass-PvP alike but they require some good amount of skill to be useful beyond IW and purge.

And lol, complaining about pets. May I point your view to a certain other summoner class? Mystics got shafted hard amd literally have the worst ulti in the entire game. Cause its oneshot. By anything and everything. Just like all the other pets. They are just useless. Sure you can spam them for CC but since pets are still broken (also effects venos I guess) thats no use.

They should revamp the petsystem in general ._.

I wanna see anyone surviving Nova + Veno Ulti + Occult Ice in a 1on1 vs a demon veno. The ulti is absolutely OP. DMG, Purge,Debuff,Amp. Like wtf. (I know you can also use LS instead of occult but venos should use str-based genies for 1on1s anyways, most of the time)

Venos are one of the strongest classes in this game and that is beyond purge/amp.

chary · July 2016

You can just use blazing barrier instead of bombing your chi with hood, tbh. Literally hood is a last last resort for me. I'll use immunes all up first.

socean#3691 · July 2016

superfedee wrote: »

veno is the only class with unpurgeable pdef self buff,

aoe purge (ult) + single target purge
aoe seal-freeze-dg

debuffs + amp

a demon veno with 35k+ base damage and equal spirit can oneshot any other endgame class with an ironwood proc+antinomy

3spark adds 900% instead of 700 and less

they have 3rd part CCs with pets

it's the only class that is factor w\o wearing gears... and the ult it's top broken in mass, you have no idea what it means to land veno ult in a vortex do you? perhaps with a sb ult too on top meaning you just 0deffed a cluster?

Hmm only class with only unpurgeable self def buff? So I guess Stormbringers dont gain any defense from reaper form do they? Bms cant just put the buff right back on a second later? I kind of consider gaining unpurgable extra health is basically the same thing so barbs also have it. Also its not a buff it's a transformation they are kind of different things. You cant purge transformations like Ultraviolet,reaper form,fox form,tiger form. Lol

Not every venomancer is a demon so its not always true. What demon venomancer would use 3 sparks that is almost suicide. 0.def is quite easy to block if your any good. Balance pretty much makes 0def useless.

Pet's are 1shots because of spirit.

you say its the only class that is a factor w/0 wearing gears? Not true. Any class is a factor without gear. Random noob db's can keep anybody at bay, random bms can keep anybody at bay, random nub clerics can hold off people for an entire fight sleep and sog. These are factors. I play noob sb and run around with clone and just stun people.

Anybody with half a brain knows to run out of range of this highly flashy and highly predictable ultimate or atleast AD. Maybe if this ultimate did something in the form of cc instead of freeze it would be good.

chary · July 2016

You can literally cancel transformations like reaper form with bewitch.

nene#6448 · July 2016

Im just waiting for the day when they finally release a squad version of bramble.

socean#3691 · July 2016

chary wrote: »

You can literally cancel transformations like reaper form with bewitch.

yes you can, but that is not purging now is it? But if you want to call that a purge, I guess we can say that fox form is purgable because a db or a veno can knock you out of it. Hey looks like veno def is purgable

socean#3691 · July 2016

chary wrote: »

You can just use blazing barrier instead of bombing your chi with hood, tbh. Literally hood is a last last resort for me. I'll use immunes all up first.

You could, but theirs a huge difference in damage reduction. Honestly you cant say that it is fair that to get that type of damage reduction venos have to use 2 sparks for it while dbs have a passive that does the same thing basically. Of course you go through immunes first that is like you said "a bomb". To be honest i completely come from a pk perspective when mentioning any class and i hate that they nerf venomancer hood in pk only so that it doesnt reflect. Sins get to run around with tidal(which honestly should be purgable atleast have a chance) which goes completely unnerfed. Hood would be worth it if it still had that reflect.

socean#3691 · July 2016

superfedee wrote: »

what the **** you talking about you are being delirious, again db damage reduction is from ranged damage, sb damage reduction from melee damage

fox form can only be removed by another veno or a db

stone barrier marrows etch can be purged by anything with a purge weapon, eruption fist and venos

why are you QQing about a class that is actually good atm

are you delirious lol? In this comment all you did was restate what I said against your post. Fox form is only phy dmg just like sb reaper form is what i said. I stated it can be removed by a db or veno which is what u didnt state and that is basically purging. You said UNPURGABLE. I stated bm buff can be purged, but put back on right after.

seriously the only thing u did was restate everything i just posted against your comment.

noctusvenator · July 2016

Why the arguing about fox form? It can only be 'purged' with the bewitch skill however this is true about every transformation state in the game as purge will not work on them, Reaper form for Duskblade/Stormbringer, Ultra violet dance for Clerics, True form for Barbarians and Fox form for Venomancers. This means that Venomancers and Duskblades (with the presence of a venomancer anywhere on the field for them to copy the skill) have the ability to cancel the transformation state of every class.

Just because one class has a good transformation state does not mean they do not need or deserve skill upgrades (or pet upgrades like I am hoping for).

I find it kind of annoying that everyone focuses on the 0 pdef proc from Demon Ironwood. As a sage venomancer I dont actually have this and so I find saying that Venomancers shouldnt get any upgrades because of a proc on a skill that only one cultivation side can actually obtain to be highly irritating.

I would never switch over to a Demon cultivation however as I love the perks of being sage (stronger amp, hp reduction, more pdef in fox form ect) if only the cooldown on Fox form was the same as a Barbarians True form

I can't really complain about the Venomancer Ultimate because personally I love the skill. It is highly effective and very strong.

shopcheese · July 2016

Malefic is good.. in PV to kill frogs lol.
I never use it in pvp on demon, have done it a few times on sage but it's rare. I find stunning blow much better.
Malefic not a very good skill. It's not that great for CC. Sure the sound of aoe paralyze sounds amazing, but the cast is too long, the enemy can move again when you can as well. You might as well say you also paralyze yourself when you use the skill. Sure you are immune meanwhile, but the paralyze chance isn't 100%. You will however be paralysed yourself 100%.
Casting nova is better. Or making a bm run in and roar is better.
There so few situations where it becomes useful. I used it maybe 1-2 times a month while I was active in mass pvp.

Though I don't really think venos needs adjustments other than their pets and the summon time..
I think we more need NERFS to certain classes, like sbs and dbs.

eirghan · July 2016

On seekers getting a better ultimate than veno... From the perspective of having both and using both regularly, I would 100% trade my seeker's ultimate for my veno's any day.

The best use of seeker ultimate is being a giant on a pygmy camel

arspaulina#4310 · July 2016

eirghan wrote: »

On seekers getting a better ultimate than veno... From the perspective of having both and using both regularly, I would 100% trade my seeker's ultimate for my veno's any day.

The best use of seeker ultimate is being a giant on a pygmy camel

Ok I know I'm derailing, but I had no idea you could use that on a mount-or are you casting before getting on and it just MAKES your mount huge? If so that is amazing XD

As far as I can read it-sounds like they buffed fox form more (?) If anyone messes around with HA Veno, what does these skill updates do for that build? Just for lols theorycrafting. ((yes I know I'm going to get alot of "lul HA Veno is so 200x" "Or just roll barb" "delete char, uninstall your client" "What is this 200x?" but it's for my own amusement))

eirghan · July 2016

arspaulina#4310 wrote: »

eirghan wrote: »

On seekers getting a better ultimate than veno... From the perspective of having both and using both regularly, I would 100% trade my seeker's ultimate for my veno's any day.

The best use of seeker ultimate is being a giant on a pygmy camel

Ok I know I'm derailing, but I had no idea you could use that on a mount-or are you casting before getting on and it just MAKES your mount huge? If so that is amazing XD

As far as I can read it-sounds like they buffed fox form more (?) If anyone messes around with HA Veno, what does these skill updates do for that build? Just for lols theorycrafting. ((yes I know I'm going to get alot of "lul HA Veno is so 200x" "Or just roll barb" "delete char, uninstall your client" "What is this 200x?" but it's for my own amusement))

I was casting before getting on - unfortunately it doesnt make the mount bigger, just you're big on your regular mount! BUT you can become a giant frog (in FSJ) and a giant turtle (with the quest reward) Lots of fun

Yes they buffed fox form veno (< ex fox veno) Absolutely gives more possibility for HA to be much stronger if built correctly. Can't wait to get out my old G16 and try it after the update

shade13 · July 2016

jsxshadow wrote: »

Lol. I disagree here. Venos are perfectly fine. They are still a class that rocks in 1on1s ...

Name any class which can't win 1v1 vs a veno

Or better to say, who will surely die 9 times out of 10 in 1v1 vs a veno. The only real killing combo veno has is stun-nova-hit-stun (one can't die to a simple hit spamming). And it deals poor damage on endgame players.
Much-vaunted 0 pdef combo is nerfed into nothingness by double def charms (kill the pet, so that nothing would remove your charm and be 100% safe under 67% reduction). It has some value in mass pk, but also based on big luck. No control in foxform, occult ice ruins genie. What you need to do in 1v1 vs a veno - wood immune after nova or expel after 0 proc and keep the pet dead, which is easy since they are squishy. Of course, you will say that good veno do this and that and prevents you from using this blablabla..., but if an opponent is not brainless, he has all means to successfully oppose.

New ulti is not that good, because it's easily interruptable and it's the only ulti of all classes that takes 5 sec to cast (other classes cast their ulties instantly or in 2 sec max), which makes it pretty hard to apply in stunlock combos. And we all know, stunlock is the key to the win (= No stunlock -> uncontrollable use of def charms -> no damage.

Yeah, devs hate venos for i dunno what. We had no decent skills update since morai, and with every update it gets worse, cuz others gain, while venos don't. Looks like we have fox form skills just for devs to pretend they work at venos, but in fact they make changes which affect nothing and make no difference for the class in terms of overall balance.

Pets need update badly, but devs are not doing it and not even planning (look latest interview).

p.s. Not complaining, but stating the fact

p.p.s. Maybe it's not the most neglected class (there are others with different kinds of problems), but apparently one of.

Veno skill update is a huge dissapointment.

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