R9.3 Warsong vs R9.3 Nationwar

tek1nig · July 2016

Hello,

As you all know recently this year perfect world decided to provide a method for us to finally gain access to side-cast R9.3 from Nationwar after 3 years of waiting. Unfortunately they did not provide the full recipe to properly create the gears but they did create a new recipe to side-grade.

With recent sales the side-grade gear and weapon are actually obtainable now. And as i've been farming my **** off I saw an opportunity to join in on this side-grade which I didn't think I would ever go for until now.

As an assassin I've been having my doubts about the side-grade daggers:
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/36354

I noticed they lacked any crit stat meaning my crit will go down some 6%. During PVP this is most noticeable as I purely rely on my crits to attain my kills. I know its not a huge factor as if I wanted 100% I could just use Powerdash and get it that way. But it was just something I found weird that 0 crit would be added to endgame daggers.

Im also not too amazed by the interval stat as any endgame player can tell you interval has went the way of the dinosaurs and anyone endgame with interval is merely a relic of the past. I mean I can imagine a few scenarios where having interval could help "without chill" as i'm a sage. But even then the effectiveness is moot.

What peaked my interest for going for the side-grade is the extra 5 attack levels as i'm a deity assassin and every % matters and the blue stat of even more physical attack which is very nice as well.

All and all I want to know is it "REALLYYYYY" worth it to side-grade as i'm going to have to go through the trouble of re-refining (as the chienkun transfer fee is absurd), re-sharding drake flames, and re-engraving is it all truly worth it o.O - Side-note I am going for G17 but even that at a tier where it means something is only 5th tier in my eyes which is what ? at least 2 years away for me based on current methods?

So yea, any input would be greatly appreciated.

dblazen1 · July 2016

You've added an extra 3 to your link, so it's broken, correct would be http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/36354

The sidegrade is "meh" at best for some classes, sin included.
Base attack, combined with our own R9r3, would be higher than our current R9r3 weapon, so in that way it's worth the upgrade.
It's the only part worth upgrading, if anything.

To be honest, I don't really see any reason to sidegrade to it, you're better off saving your coins and investing it into G17 (buy materials instead of sidegrading).

That's just my opinion though, i've always been shouting that the sidegrade has a **** price as it's not worth doing at all.
Weapon is slightly better, armour is absolute garbage compared to ours.

I still think they should allow us to switch to the sidegrade for free or for a lot cheaper, instead of making us pay the price to get what should actually be the R9r3 gear (china has that one instead of our version). But yeah, powercreep happened and now we're stuck here.

jsxshadow · July 2016

Like I said before. The interval is OP for those that are willing to go all out. Now with the new r8rr helmet it is even possible to get 5.0 base Sage sin or even 5.0 (sparked demon sin with cotd on!) and thats absolutely crazy. As far as PvP goes there is nothing that comes even close to that dmg cept ofc for Stormbringer and their passive autoattack dmg reduction.

If I really wanted to go all out in this game as a sin I would roll a max defensive, full jade gear set (r9rr + base helm/nw cape or woa/com) and switch to a full deity, aps set (r8rr helm, chest (min 0.1 int) and shoes (min 0.05 best if 0.1 as well), g15 vana leggins and arms and g13 lunar cape. Depending on your aps on the shoes u dont even need to use the g12 ornaments for additional aps.

With this setup and ofc if done right, a sin would be undefeatable in a 1on1. For comparision...a 220 att lvl demon trip sparked sin with 60k base attack sparked could kill a full jaded barb on selfbuffs in 6 seconds without any additional debuffs. Add Subsea, tangling and lock the enemy with occult meanwhile and you win by default.

Another aspect of the game no one utilizes (sadly) and would be OP as heck in the right hands. Now we just have pure aps and pure r9rr sins.

"Blablabla i dont wanna use 2 gear sets blablabla" Do you guys wanna be absolute top or just play around?

tek1nig · July 2016

dblazen1 wrote: »

You've added an extra 3 to your link, so it's broken, correct would be http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/36354

The sidegrade is "meh" at best for some classes, sin included.
Base attack, combined with our own R9r3, would be higher than our current R9r3 weapon, so in that way it's worth the upgrade.
It's the only part worth upgrading, if anything.

To be honest, I don't really see any reason to sidegrade to it, you're better off saving your coins and investing it into G17 (buy materials instead of sidegrading).

That's just my opinion though, i've always been shouting that the sidegrade has a **** price as it's not worth doing at all.
Weapon is slightly better, armour is absolute garbage compared to ours.

I still think they should allow us to switch to the sidegrade for free or for a lot cheaper, instead of making us pay the price to get what should actually be the R9r3 gear (china has that one instead of our version). But yeah, powercreep happened and now we're stuck here.

For me it was for free because I farmed and merchanted to make sure it was free from the ground up. The only thing that is a little disturbing is the transfer fee which makes no sense how HIGH it is. So I will not be transferring anything and starting over form +0 should I choose this route.

jsxshadow wrote: »

Like I said before. The interval is OP for those that are willing to go all out. Now with the new r8rr helmet it is even possible to get 5.0 base Sage sin or even 5.0 (sparked demon sin with cotd on!) and thats absolutely crazy. As far as PvP goes there is nothing that comes even close to that dmg cept ofc for Stormbringer and their passive autoattack dmg reduction.

If I really wanted to go all out in this game as a sin I would roll a max defensive, full jade gear set (r9rr + base helm/nw cape or woa/com) and switch to a full deity, aps set (r8rr helm, chest (min 0.1 int) and shoes (min 0.05 best if 0.1 as well), g15 vana leggins and arms and g13 lunar cape. Depending on your aps on the shoes u dont even need to use the g12 ornaments for additional aps.

With this setup and ofc if done right, a sin would be undefeatable in a 1on1. For comparision...a 220 att lvl demon trip sparked sin with 60k base attack sparked could kill a full jaded barb on selfbuffs in 6 seconds without any additional debuffs. Add Subsea, tangling and lock the enemy with occult meanwhile and you win by default.

Another aspect of the game no one utilizes (sadly) and would be OP as heck in the right hands. Now we just have pure aps and pure r9rr sins.

"Blablabla i dont wanna use 2 gear sets blablabla" Do you guys wanna be absolute top or just play around?

No PVP assassin in their right mind would go interval for pvp. PvP does not mean 1 v 1. As a matter of fact 1 v 1 isn't even a concept for discussion for me, you know my gear, you know my assassin, I simply want to know mathematically should i choose this route is it really that much better?

superfedee wrote: »

lmao "i want 100% crit"
man crit is capped @ 95% even if you read 100% on C menu
switch weapon already ffs, sin problem (problem? lmao) is that it has cards\star chart weapon damage (p atk) nerfed respect other classes, this weapon adds more weapon damage which scales with your base damage and scales with the 500% 900% etch added by your skills.... just do it xD

Where is your reference for this statement you've made? Because I recall them increasing the cap to 100% a long long time ago, also BankaiGOD Director KateMonster created a side by side comparison chart for both weapons and the base damage goes up slightly on the low end but goes down on the high end if I were to switch over. The only reason I'm willing to overlook this issue is because of the extra blue stat on the weapon which also gives a bit more physical attack. Honestly my only concern is losing the crit stat because in my mind, that means i'll crit less potentially when going in for my stealth kills.

This can be referenced here in the BankaiGOD Public forums:

http://bankaigod.pwfactions.com/forum_threads/2471150

jsxshadow · July 2016

Even for non-1on1 PvP sins should consider going that route. the speed in which someone can kill another with the aps dmg that is now possible will catch alot of people off guard, especially in mass-PvP. Ofc that requires alot of skill to permanently switch between gear sets depending on the situation but lets be serious. even with just aps gear at +12. With tidal and the def charms we have now sins should still be very very tanky..so that is no issue imho.

eirghan · July 2016

Interval has "gone the way of the dinosaurs" because no class could obtain enough of it to matter while being strong enough to tank any kind of retaliation. A full r93 class with 5.0 interval would be and is formidable.
I think we will see a limited renaissance of interval

dregenfox · July 2016

eirghan wrote: »

Interval has "gone the way of the dinosaurs" because no class could obtain enough of it to matter while being strong enough to tank any kind of retaliation. A full r93 class with 5.0 interval would be and is formidable.
I think we will see a limited renaissance of interval

Depending on the G17 proc rates it probably won't be worth it to invest so much in a gimmicky interval set only to get constantly denied by defensive invincibility/absorption/purify procs. It would certainly wreck non-magic classes and non-endgame/unbuffed casters though.

But then again those weapons are at least a year away, depending on how good the drop rates for judegement UP are.

jabq · July 2016

eirghan wrote: »

Interval has "gone the way of the dinosaurs" because no class could obtain enough of it to matter while being strong enough to tank any kind of retaliation. A full r93 class with 5.0 interval would be and is formidable.
I think we will see a limited renaissance of interval

My dream build for bm

. I won't require two sets that way

.

5 aps bm vs barb = can be done, axes = takes too long. Just hope there is no demon roar involved

.

One should stay away from all venos

. They love seeing a cute kitten go 5 aps on them and kill themselves. A bit odd, one would imagine.

Aps build is still viable for PVE, most solo farming still has aps bosses. They can be done with r9r3 axes, but the mp cost is too high to make the efficient.

tek1nig · July 2016

Well guys remember interval is not a factor for me in this conversation that I posted. Beyond the "interval stat" is it worth switching over and can anyone provide damage increase formula?

dregenfox · July 2016

tek1nig wrote: »

Well guys remember interval is not a factor for me in this conversation that I posted. Beyond the "interval stat" is it worth switching over and can anyone provide damage increase formula?

You will probably have to play with it on the gear calc website because it's different for every class. For stormbringers it's like a 10% damage increase, while for mystic/wizard it was only like a 5% increase.

I think the best answer I can give you is that you can probably live without it, but if you have the 350 gold + 12 star orb to spend then the upgrade is at least noticeable, if not particularly impressive.

Edit: After comparing the daggers, personally I would not upgrade for 117 phy attack while losing 3-6% crit rate. At least not for the current cost.

eirghan · July 2016

Looking at your mypers for your sin, you will gain top end 1047 more Phys attack overall by getting the sidegrade weapon, gain an additional 6 attack levels and lose as you mentioned the 6% crit in exchange for that.

If you will be focusing on channeling skills as you suggested, int will mean nothing to you, so we will table that opportunity.

I decided to test your damage on mine for fun and you it on average 278 more damage top end on my character. You will of course see a bigger difference on lower geared players with less defense levels due to that amplification. (I tested this on my character on various characters with the different weapons and saw the same)

Ultimately you want to calculate if overall your damage output will be that much different after accounting for the loss of your crit. I'm not a math whiz, but i usually just work it out like this in my head.

R93 Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 35597
Crit damage (top end x2) 71194

Out of 100 hits:
81x 71194 (crit percent and damage)
19x 35597 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 64430 damage per hit

R9"4" Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 36644
Crit damage (top end x2) 73288

Out of 100 hits:
78x 73288 (crit percent and damage)
22x 36644 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 65526 damage per hit

So r9"4" Daggers will give you 1096 more damage per hit on average factoring in crit (and NOT factoring in the attack level advantage so it has that going for it as well).

I know thats kind of basic but thats how I think of it xD. Will you have to wait 6% longer for that crit advantage? Sure. But youll be doing overall more damage in the long run so if it's worth the money to you it IS an upgrade.

Keep in mind 1096 is not an actual number used on characters for damage. I didnt take actual hits from the calculator to test them but I suppose you could do that too. I just mathed it quick using the calc and got 189 damage per hit more damage average on my character.

ninjakitchenrulr · July 2016

The upgrade is small but for myself it tied up a couple loose ends as in what I wanted for my sin. Also I already had all the dragons, most of them from charge rewards. So Basically the refine was a bonus for me. Overall, because of not having to pay to refine, it was worth it for me.

spaz95 · July 2016

eirghan wrote: »

Looking at your mypers for your sin, you will gain top end 1047 more Phys attack overall by getting the sidegrade weapon, gain an additional 6 attack levels and lose as you mentioned the 6% crit in exchange for that.

If you will be focusing on channeling skills as you suggested, int will mean nothing to you, so we will table that opportunity.

I decided to test your damage on mine for fun and you it on average 278 more damage top end on my character. You will of course see a bigger difference on lower geared players with less defense levels due to that amplification. (I tested this on my character on various characters with the different weapons and saw the same)

Ultimately you want to calculate if overall your damage output will be that much different after accounting for the loss of your crit. I'm not a math whiz, but i usually just work it out like this in my head.

R93 Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 35597
Crit damage (top end x2) 71194

Out of 100 hits:
81x 71194 (crit percent and damage)
19x 35597 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 64430 damage per hit

R9"4" Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 36644
Crit damage (top end x2) 73288

Out of 100 hits:
78x 73288 (crit percent and damage)
22x 36644 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 65526 damage per hit

But the less crit rate means less zerk crits to happen. Thats what LA classes rely on, the zerk crits. Doesnt matter if you gain an over all 1k damage.

Thats why for pk its better for a db or assassin to have a GoF Nv2 (G16) weapon rather than Ws2.

eirghan · July 2016

spaz95 wrote: »

eirghan wrote: »

Looking at your mypers for your sin, you will gain top end 1047 more Phys attack overall by getting the sidegrade weapon, gain an additional 6 attack levels and lose as you mentioned the 6% crit in exchange for that.

If you will be focusing on channeling skills as you suggested, int will mean nothing to you, so we will table that opportunity.

I decided to test your damage on mine for fun and you it on average 278 more damage top end on my character. You will of course see a bigger difference on lower geared players with less defense levels due to that amplification. (I tested this on my character on various characters with the different weapons and saw the same)

Ultimately you want to calculate if overall your damage output will be that much different after accounting for the loss of your crit. I'm not a math whiz, but i usually just work it out like this in my head.

R93 Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 35597
Crit damage (top end x2) 71194

Out of 100 hits:
81x 71194 (crit percent and damage)
19x 35597 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 64430 damage per hit

R9"4" Dagger
Phys Damage (top end) 36644
Crit damage (top end x2) 73288

Out of 100 hits:
78x 73288 (crit percent and damage)
22x 36644 (non crit percent and damage)
Divided by 100 to get an average
= 65526 damage per hit

But the less crit rate means less zerk crits to happen. Thats what LA classes rely on, the zerk crits. Doesnt matter if you gain an over all 1k damage.

Thats why for pk its better for a db or assassin to have a GoF Nv2 (G16) weapon rather than Ws2.

That can be argued. I'm just showing the numbers. It can also be argued that 81% is ridiculously high and going down to 78% is still more than 3/4 of your hits being crits, therefore having a chance to zerk crit.

Ultimately these questions are kind of pointless. The build and creation of a character is entirely up to the player and not up to the playerbase to say which is better.

Which is why I gave averages to help the OP make an informed decision, rather than say "this style of play is always better because____"

beast21g · July 2016

dont forget that on the new expansion with the new passive skills crit% will be reduced

blazerboy · July 2016

Way I see it besides duskblade losing 2.0 range on their R9 and g17 weapon (but let sins keep it why?) I think switching to the r9CN wep is worth the upgrade if u can afford it

eirghan · July 2016

beast21g wrote: »

dont forget that on the new expansion with the new passive skills crit% will be reduced

Also this. +1

tek1nig · July 2016

beast21g wrote: »

dont forget that on the new expansion with the new passive skills crit% will be reduced

Crit damage * will be reduced not actual crit rates o.o

Also-

I found a fatal flaw. Being as the side cast r9.3 daggers have a lower base physical damage each of the attacks with "base physical damage + Weapon damage" become nerfed. One could accurately state that in a span of 10 seconds in pvp I could lose out on 5k worth of damage. Which overtime in a long fight would prove to be a huge disadvantage to myself.

I did this by comparing my char vs my char and switching the daggers out for the new "Chaos Crossers":

http://mypers.pw/9/#414397/414397

So officially I have decided I will not be moving over to Side cast r9.3 because even though there are 6 more attack levels and a bit of a gain for me - due to the new primal "homestead" assassins skills I actually lose damage by switching over.

eirghan · July 2016

Im surprised your tests showed lost damage because the weapon attack is actually slightly slightly higher with the chaos crossers, same with the base physical attack.

Weapon attack r93:1682-2130
Physical attack r93:57868-63961

Weapon attack r94: 1714-2121
Physical attack r94: 59883-65459

Physical attack is about 1k higher on both ends, weapon attack is about 30 higher on low end and 10 lower on high end. Overall an improvement on chaos weapon.

Id do actual math but on phone and too lazy.

dayk0u · July 2016

Actually, agreed to eirghan, take sometimes to check it, you would hit a bit higher with Chaos Crosser(I hope you didn't forget Drakeflame stones+ considering there're more attack levels & physic attack +84, it's slighty, but it stay an improvment.)
Sad part is, there's no critical hit rate on r9 "4" daggers, so you'd drop to 78% crit rate.

Anyway, did another test with Mistress of Night (rb 1 & rb 2)
Even with Adversity & Mistress of night(rb 2) you'd be hitting a bit less than with Chaos Crosser with mistress of Night(rb 1).

tek1nig · July 2016

I am familiar with how to use the website and I took much time to ensure all values were correct. According to the data it shows the Chaos Crossers hit less for skills involving weapon damage. The skill utilized in this test was Earthen Rift, the gap in damage is even more pronounced in other skills like elimination.

eirghan · July 2016

Hard to see because your toons are named the same! Lol. I tested this earlier as well and came out with exact opposite. Well. Maybe i misunderstood. I will look at it again tomorrow

ebisama · July 2016

Somehow his chaos crosser char has 17 attack level less then the other while it should have more then r9rr thats what is off setting the damage charts. adversity maxed is 65 attack lv vs chaos crossers 70 so how it got 17 less is a mystery

dblazen1 · July 2016

tek1nig wrote: »

I am familiar with how to use the website and I took much time to ensure all values were correct. According to the data it shows the Chaos Crossers hit less for skills involving weapon damage. The skill utilized in this test was Earthen Rift, the gap in damage is even more pronounced in other skills like elimination.

Your calcs are definitely wrong, I am getting completely different numbers when I switch out your weapon on this link:
http://mypers.pw/9/#414397
For a chaos crosser +12 and drakeflames

The calc probably screwed something up, but here's an actual correct comparison between the 2 characters, both completely identical, only the daggers switched (the link you used compares the 2 same characters (414397/414397)) (just like @dayk0u did):
http://mypers.pw/9/#415051/414397
(left is chaos crosser, right is adversity)

Testing earthen rift:
*Chaos crosser: SyntherosXHL2 takes 4657-5054 damage. Critical hit 9314-10108 damage.
*Adversity: SyntherosXHL2 deals 4425-4850 damage. Critical hit 8850-9700 damage.

There's not a single way attack stats, apart from crit, can be lower on chaos crosser compared to adversity when both are +12 and drakeflamed

Your chill of the deep was set to level 1 when you used chaos crosser.

ebisama · July 2016

the prob was the chaos crosser was using lv1 chill of the deep dropping it to 220 attack lv thats what offsets it

dayk0u · July 2016

Actually, with your Chaos Crosser you must have 243 attack levels instead of 220...I guess you took chill of the deep level 1 instead of level "12" one upgraded by primal. I think you should just check tests made by people and move on lol

tek1nig · July 2016

I loaded the exact same character but yes as you guys pointed it it does not have the same attack levels for some reason - but rest assured this is not from an error on my part.

Clicking the button again and setting it again seems to have fixed this issue, seems like I will be going side-cast r9.3 afterall - Thanks for pointing that out!

R9.3 Warsong vs R9.3 Nationwar

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