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PWI coin balance

WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
edited August 2014 in General Discussion
As so many people cry horror about botting and the inflation it causes, i thought maybe its nice to try and have a look at what the coin balance actually looks like:

Coins Generated
  • BH rewards +24bil
  • botting + 3 bil

Coins destroyed
  • repair costs - 5 bil
  • AH fee < -1bil
  • NW fees -7.5 bil

Feel free to reply if there is something to add to the list or when you think my estimate for something is waaaay of. Please dont tell when you think its a little bit off or even quite a bit. We can never expect perfect answers, its all just guestimations. Also dont reply if you think its wrong but you have nothing to support the claim. If you come tell me for example how you checked WC and know exactly how many BH squads there were exactly, now that would make me very happy. Try to improve on my estimations and methods, not just cry that im an idiot and leave it at that. And please note, all is based on archosaur numbers. If you post your suggestions and i will fit them in the complete picture, i will probably translate your numbers to archosaur numbers.

Im gonna start with the easiest to estimate:

NW fees. there are about 600 participants each NW. All together they get about 100.000 tokens. (166 each on average). To convert tokens into SOWs, you pay 26k fee per token, converting them into raps/canies costs 10k per token. Other stuff is more expensive but probably relatively insignificant to these 2. Since more SOWs are made then raps/cannies, lets say the average fee is 20.000 per token.
On top of that comes the cost of turning about 1200 SOWs into gear at an average cost of about 1.5m per SOW.

So we get here 100k * 20k* + 1200 *1.5m. = 3.8b.
There are 2 NWs each weekend so we got a coinsink here for 7.5b per week.

BH rewards The other factors are unfortanately much harder to estimate. So im gonna have to start with a wild guess: I guess that 5000 toons do their daily BHs. This would mean 500 squads per day. Some of them are made in faction, most in WC. Since a day has 1440 minutes, that would make 1 squad every 4 minutes on average (more during prime time, less during off-time.)

There is 20% chance for 2mil and 5% chance for 5mil for an expected value of 650k per toon.
Total coin creation 5k * 650k = 3.25bil per day. or about 22bil per week. 2bil more is added on BH lunar days. so 24 total.

Botting This one will spawn controversy of course... And its hard for me to estimate what a bot makes per hour. I have botted a long time ago and seem to remember i made like 500k net per hour or so. But that included the market value of DQ items i think. So im gonna asume 300k for now in coin generation. I might set myself to botting for testing it sometime soon. Now to estimate the total weekly amount of botting hours. For that i just made a trip around the maps. I found 7 bots in Momagnon and 15.5 in Lothranis (the 0.5 was a stupid bot swimming in the lake b:chuckle). Morai was very hard to judge since it is full of players. Some of them pick up their drops, others dont, sometimes theres a bot picking them. All chaos. I think im gonna value morai at another 15 bots worth of coin generation. This bring us to 38 total, a few more on the high levels areas of the world map and primal maybe so lets say 60.
60 * 300k * 168h = 3 bil.

AH fees
The gold part i can estimate somewhat. Im gonna guess about 2000 gold goes trough the AH per week. both the buyer and seller pay 2% so thats 4% on 6billion coins. This is just 240 mils and thus insignificant. The 5% fees on the item AH i doubt are going to be much more significant. Note that my 2000 gold estimate does not mean PWI only makes a puny 2000USD per server per week. The vast majority of CSing probable never goes trough the AH. I base my estimate on extensive personal experience with the AH gold market as a merchant.

Repair cost
Those 5000 toons that are doing their BH and other stuff need to repair their toons. I myself pay about 0.5 - 1.0 m per day. Lets say 4m per week. But i am the top end extreme with my barb of course. So im gonna guestimate this to 1m per week per toon for 5 bil total.

Conclusion:
Im not going to draw any conclusions. It was just to have a rough idea of what the total picture looks like.
Post edited by WannaBM - Archosaur on
Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.

Comments

  • Jaabg - SanctuaryJaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Just a quick word, sanctuary has far more botters than 60. Goothe area = 10~13. 1k area = 4~7. Rhino, beetle, bats in morai = 4, the rhino, beetle, flower area = 7, around aeu enterance = 8~12.

    lower level mat farming areas = 2~5 in each spot. There are about 20 spots.

    As you said, tricky thing, trying to figure out botting, because people log in and other times they don't.
  • Socqar - Lost CitySocqar - Lost City Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Botting 3B? on a PVE server? Even on PVP servers I know people can make over 500M a week... (yeah, non-legit way having multis, we know that) so I'd say more 30 than 3... and this is on PVP servers!

    For the rest, looks kinda good
  • Aubree - DreamweaverAubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Did you check celestial lake in Morai? About 15-20 botters there, in that one area, 24/7.
  • Joe - MoraiJoe - Morai Posts: 1,299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Well thank you WannaBM!

    I never looked at it this way. Although I guess we have at least 300 Bots on Morai 24/7 it's still a way less coin income then BH, I agree with that.

    Still I estimate the Botting coin income for over 10b each week on morai and Sanctuary as well, although Sanct seems pretty screwed lately (economy-wise)...Have seen a cat on Sanct that was BUYING DoDs for 250!!!m each xDD like wth...

    I stated this example cuz it is a major indicator that this very special specimen never did anything cept botting for his money. If you cash...no matter how much money you got irl you have still earned one way or another so you would value your money way more.

    I'm not saying that ppl like those are always bots or hacker...but most of the time they are. Those ppl are the problem. Not the casual 1 or 2 Character-Botters.

    I guess the majority of those estimated 300 Bots on Morai/Sanct belong to only a small group of ppl which are gaining lots of money for nothing thus they are not having the same value-in-mind for those coins as someone who would spam TT/merch or cash for his money.

    On any other aspect your numbers seem to be close to perfect for Morai as well. So great job Bro (:
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Interesting post.

    Yeah the botting thing will vary from server to server and I can say that Sanctuary probably has way more than 60 bots running around, especially during 2x. It's hard to estimate it though. Nobody mentioned Primal World either, which has its fair share of bots along with Hell, Heaven, Morai and various world map locations.
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  • SylenThunder - Twilight TempleSylenThunder - Twilight Temple Supprot Guru Posts: 7,908
    edited August 2014
    Interesting post.

    Yeah the botting thing will vary from server to server and I can say that Sanctuary probably has way more than 60 bots running around, especially during 2x. It's hard to estimate it though. Nobody mentioned Primal World either, which has its fair share of bots along with Hell, Heaven, Morai and various world map locations.
    Judging from what I saw last night, I'd say there were 60 just in Morai.b:chuckle
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  • ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens TearImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Did you wipe all those numbers off after you pulled them out?

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  • Fryvorg - SanctuaryFryvorg - Sanctuary Posts: 299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I don't really think there are 5000 toons being logged daily to do BH or that a squad for BH is being made every 4 minutes. Maybe 3000. And as suggested, there are at least 300 bots running around all over the world(s). That would equal out BH income and bot income a bit (14b vs 9b).

    No matter whose numbers are more accurate, you can't deny that botting does speed up the natural inflation, just due to the considerable additional amount of coins it adds.
    Plus, pvp servers' gold is still quite "reasonable", not only because it is more competitive (= more people willing to charge; former reason why gold was 200k-500k cheaper there than on other servers, which was up to 25% a year ago), but also they can effectively reduce botting by killing them (new reason; hence now their gold price is almost 50% cheaper than for example Sanctuary's). The much higher difference between pvp and pve servers gives a hint that botting is a factor nevertheless.
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  • bloodedone87bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Another thread about economy?b:shocked No pls stop it alreadyb:shutup
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  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I don't really think there are 5000 toons being logged daily to do BH or that a squad for BH is being made every 4 minutes. Maybe 3000. And as suggested, there are at least 300 bots running around all over the world(s). That would equal out BH income and bot income a bit (14b vs 9b).

    No matter whose numbers are more accurate, you can't deny that botting does speed up the natural inflation, just due to the considerable additional amount of coins it adds.
    Plus, pvp servers' gold is still quite "reasonable", not only because it is more competitive (= more people willing to charge; former reason why gold was 200k-500k cheaper there than on other servers, which was up to 25% a year ago), but also they can effectively reduce botting by killing them (new reason; hence now their gold price is almost 50% cheaper than for example Sanctuary's). The much higher difference between pvp and pve servers gives a hint that botting is a factor nevertheless.

    As for the BH toons, its hard to estimate. Who feels like counting WC squads for a few hours ? ;)

    It may be very different from server to server, but i did truly fly over all of momagnon, lothranis and morai. and reported what i found. While this is only checked on 1 moment, it does look much like it did when i was botting myself. I do dailies in primal and rarely see any bots there at all. I guess i must be lucky being on archosaur then.

    Even this low number of bots are crossing eachothers territorry btw so i doubt it can be 5 times more on other servers. But hey i am not there so i cant tell. 300+ seems impossible to me though, there just isnt enough space for that. If there would be that many, their farming efficiency would go down drastically as they are constantly kill stealing eachother. (and then trying to pickup stuff they cant pickup). Maybe someone on another server wants to actually go count them.?

    Yes it does have its negative influence. Even the number of bots that i report for archo has its influence without a doubt. 15% more coin production is significant. Espescially because it is about a balance.
    If my example values are hypothethically somewhat right, it would mean 27 produced vs 13.5 destroyed for a net generation of 13.5 while it would otherwise be 10.5. So while it looks like 15% more production, it is actually 30%.*

    It wont totally destroy the economy in short notice, but yes it does inflate the gold price. If other servers have for example twice the number of bots that archo does, it would be very significant for their economy indeed and it does correspond with the different gold prices on the servers.

    I do think they should reduce all DQ items to 1 coin. And they may also reduce the gold drops from mobs imo. The only ones who benefit from them are botters anyway. Noone picks them up manually.
    It could be noted though that changing something simple like reducing the 2mil reward chance from 20 to 15 could have a great impact too. I do not know what PWI is able to control in all these factors and what is only in chinas control.

    *while i have faith that many of my numbers are within somehwat reasonable range from the truth (say +/- 30%ish or so), i have no illusion about these total numbers of 27 and 13.5 being anywhere near the truth. No doubt there are many factors that i am overlooking. While the ones here may be the biggest ones, there are dozens of other small ones and many small ones can totally change it.
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  • peckkedpeckked Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There are other coin sinks that aren't really listed here you might want to consider, though I've no idea how to estimate them.

    Lunar Fees
    Teleport Fees - might be small but with every player of every level using them....
    Recast/Reroll Fees
    Cube Fees
    FS Coin Fees

    Mirages from BH also can represent a large source of coins as I know many players (in spite or recommendations against doing so) npc them for coin.
  • Jaabg - SanctuaryJaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    peckked wrote: »
    Lunar Fees

    They don't count anymore. You spend 500k to open, you get 500k back as bh reward.
  • Xainou - SanctuaryXainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    bats in morai = 4

    You might want to double that number, ijs.
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  • Fryvorg - SanctuaryFryvorg - Sanctuary Posts: 299 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Even this low number of bots are crossing eachothers territorry btw so i doubt it can be 5 times more on other servers. But hey i am not there so i cant tell. 300+ seems impossible to me though, there just isnt enough space for that.
    Seriously, check out Sanctuary, if you can. I flew over the quarter Celestial Lake - Belighted Garden - Umbral Cove - Withering Wilds in Morai and counted over 50 different toons. Helll, the entrance area has 13 bots alone xD
    That is Morai only, there's also a lot in the Northern part of the world map, as well as the Deserted Sea/land of buried bones, and of course Heaven/Hell. Though, Morai has the tightest crowd. That's 300 for sure, rather more.
    Yes it does have its negative influence. Even the number of bots that i report for archo has its influence without a doubt. 15% more coin production is significant. Espescially because it is about a balance.
    If my example values are hypothethically somewhat right, it would mean 27 produced vs 13.5 destroyed for a net generation of 13.5 while it would otherwise be 10.5. So while it looks like 15% more production, it is actually 30%.*
    Okay, I wanted to be assured by you, as your other post (the one with the comparison of house prizes) seemed like you'd measure botting no influence whatsoever lol
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  • duffer4nowduffer4now Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The botting hysteria is so out of control now.

    Quite a deep layer of BS building up, none of it based on fact, but on figures pulled out of paranoid players worst fears about the "other" group of players. Elite players who run BH and NW are threatened by average players, running individual bots, while they work during the day. Unless you can prove other wise, every bot out here is a one person deal. Almost every player I know, runs a bot when they are playing and are at work or sleeping.

    There is a significant barrier to entry in the botting business, which is a high level, well geared toon is required to farm drops of significant value. This prevents 'fleets of bots' run by a single person or running them as a business. One can make far more coin in less time running a high level toon with good gear in BH's and NW than they can ever make botting.

    Almost every player I know runs BH's and NW as often as they can for those generous rewards. When they are not running those two activities and not playing, they run a bot in their off hours.

    With most of the player base dipping generously into the largess of PWI recently thanks to BH and NW rewards where the average player can net several millions a week for only a few hours of effort, and the resulting runaway inflation that comes about when you increase the money supply but do not increase the supply goods. The things most sought after, rare gear, skills, etc. have not increased in the game.

    If anything they have decreased due to players spending time earning coin instead of fighting monsters for high value item drops. The problem is only going to get worse until PWI balances the ability to earn coins with the supply of desirable items. Currently the pendulum has swung very far in the direction of players being rewarded with coin rather than actual drops that are of value, not mats, but complete items, weapons, gear etc.

    PWI has chosen this route as they think will stimulate Zen purchases, as the only way to get the high value items in the game is by using Zen to get gold to then turn into coin to buy high value items since almost every one has access to the same generous coin rewards.

    Non one has offered one shred of evidence that botting by players brings in anywhere near the amount that the current BH and NW rewards does.

    Prices will continue to skyrocket until such time as PWI finds a way to increase the supply of desired items in the game. There is simply too much easy coin chasing too few desired items.
  • jwillson123jwillson123 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Less people do BH now.
    To be honest I do not do BH anymore.
    For me BH is a waste of time.
    I rather use that time to farm TT and earn 5 million+ in an hour and that is just green mats.
    Or do FSP.
    FSP is 3+ million a day guarantee if you decide to get card pack instead.
    I really can't believe people getting exited for getting the Ecstasy Card reward and even WC each time they get it thanking BH NPC lol.
    Ecstasy Card is a piece of **** reward these days 2 million are nothing and is also a rare chance to get.
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  • HideYoHubby - ArchosaurHideYoHubby - Archosaur Posts: 995 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    They don't count anymore. You spend 500k to open, you get 500k back as bh reward.

    He did account the extra coins as in larger income from BH lunar days, which isnt true as you said, 3m spend on opening, 3m get handed back as reward.

    I would also argue amount of BH squads on archo is 1/3-1/2 less than what he is suggesting. Its clearly too high but hard to estimate by how much.
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  • Jaabg - SanctuaryJaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    He did account the extra coins as in larger income from BH lunar days, which isnt true as you said, 3m spend on opening, 3m get handed back as reward.

    I would also argue amount of BH squads on archo is 1/3-1/2 less than what he is suggesting. Its clearly too high but hard to estimate by how much.


    I was referring to peckked and not WannaBM. WannaBM did it for his server, in a single point and rough estimates. Just to start drawing the picture, getting accurate result is hard :D.

    Xainou: thanks, i hardly go in morai anymore beside when i have to. Too many bots. Everywhere i fly there i see bots.
  • Asterelle - SanctuaryAsterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I like your approach. At one point I came up with a Drake's equation-like formula for estimating server population based on the number of catshops in arch and came up with like 4,000 players online in sanctuary.
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  • ovenusarmanioovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    I don't think making a wild guess is a good way for estimating the number of BH squads. The problem I have with the op for a thread like this is it's based on admittedly wild guesses. When it's just a wild guess you can manipulate that data however you want to make it say what you want, when you do it that way. It's a good idea in theory though you're just going to need more actual data instead of just randomly guessing before it can have any meaning.

    For example, for the bots you would need to figure out what people can make on average.

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  • Arawin - Raging TideArawin - Raging Tide Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I think the point remains true. There's clearly more coins going into circulation than are being removed.(Thus the gold price is going up.) He didn't even count the 5 million per "best luck token" added. Though I don't think lowering the amount added is the best solution.

    A new coin sink is needed. That is, something useful to spend coins on.

    Edit:

    Just for an example (and not really a good one, as this isn't a good idea.) Imagine if you could spend 100million coins for 1 extra stat point. (That is dex, magic, etc...) Imagine what would happen. Almost no one would be interested, yet some people would. And those people would spend the billions of coins for a slight edge. Some cash shoppers would CS and sell their gold for coins to buy extra stat points, and a slight edge. Suddenly there's a large amount of coins LEAVING the economy, and things will fix themselves. Obviously 100million for 1 stat is kinda silly, but I'm sure there are useful things that could drain coins from the economy.
  • Olbaze - SanctuaryOlbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    NW fees. there are about 600 participants each NW. All together they get about 100.000 tokens. (166 each on average). To convert tokens into SOWs, you pay 26k fee per token, converting them into raps/canies costs 10k per token. Other stuff is more expensive but probably relatively insignificant to these 2. Since more SOWs are made then raps/cannies, lets say the average fee is 20.000 per token.
    On top of that comes the cost of turning about 1200 SOWs into gear at an average cost of about 1.5m per SOW.

    So we get here 100k * 20k* + 1200 *1.5m. = 3.8b.
    There are 2 NWs each weekend so we got a coinsink here for 7.5b per week.

    The problems I have with this assumption are quite simple. Firstly, only a subset of Supply Tokens are turned into SoWs. Secondly, only a subset of Supply Tokens are used as soon as they are generated.

    If you're going to estimate something like this, you should do both the minimum and maximum possible coin generated.
    BH rewards The other factors are unfortanately much harder to estimate. So im gonna have to start with a wild guess: I guess that 5000 toons do their daily BHs. This would mean 500 squads per day. Some of them are made in faction, most in WC. Since a day has 1440 minutes, that would make 1 squad every 4 minutes on average (more during prime time, less during off-time.)

    There is 20% chance for 2mil and 5% chance for 5mil for an expected value of 650k per toon.
    Total coin creation 5k * 650k = 3.25bil per day. or about 22bil per week. 2bil more is added on BH lunar days. so 24 total.

    Again, this is based on a random guess. If you wanted an actual number, I'd suggest spending a 24 hour period monitoring world chat for unique BH squads. That would give you a pretty solid minimum for the number of BHs being done per day. From there, you can indeed assume that every squad generates ~3.25m coins.
    Botting This one will spawn controversy of course... And its hard for me to estimate what a bot makes per hour. I have botted a long time ago and seem to remember i made like 500k net per hour or so. But that included the market value of DQ items i think. So im gonna asume 300k for now in coin generation. I might set myself to botting for testing it sometime soon. Now to estimate the total weekly amount of botting hours. For that i just made a trip around the maps. I found 7 bots in Momagnon and 15.5 in Lothranis (the 0.5 was a stupid bot swimming in the lake b:chuckle). Morai was very hard to judge since it is full of players. Some of them pick up their drops, others dont, sometimes theres a bot picking them. All chaos. I think im gonna value morai at another 15 bots worth of coin generation. This bring us to 38 total, a few more on the high levels areas of the world map and primal maybe so lets say 60.
    60 * 300k * 168h = 3 bil.

    Man, you're way underestimating this. Also I don't see why you would ignore the value of DQ items, when the higher ones can still be sold for more than 1 coin.

    And the areas that you should be checking for botting include: Morai, Primal, Momaganon, Lothranis, Avalanche and Land of Buried Bones, at the very least.
    AH fees
    The gold part i can estimate somewhat. Im gonna guess about 2000 gold goes trough the AH per week. both the buyer and seller pay 2% so thats 4% on 6billion coins. This is just 240 mils and thus insignificant. The 5% fees on the item AH i doubt are going to be much more significant. Note that my 2000 gold estimate does not mean PWI only makes a puny 2000USD per server per week. The vast majority of CSing probable never goes trough the AH. I base my estimate on extensive personal experience with the AH gold market as a merchant.

    2000 gold in a week? Man, you're dreaming. There are dozens of big time merchants on every single server. All of those merchants are going to be buying several hundred if not thousands of gold each.

    And I wonder about what your point here is. I don't think that anyone seriously thinks that botting is the largest coin generator in the game. The issue is that it's clearly a major, new contributor.
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  • GreenLegend - ArchosaurGreenLegend - Archosaur Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    ...
    Botting This one will spawn controversy of course... And its hard for me to estimate what a bot makes per hour. I have botted a long time ago and seem to remember i made like 500k net per hour or so. But that included the market value of DQ items i think. So im gonna asume 300k for now in coin generation. I might set myself to botting for testing it sometime soon. Now to estimate the total weekly amount of botting hours. For that i just made a trip around the maps. I found 7 bots in Momagnon and 15.5 in Lothranis (the 0.5 was a stupid bot swimming in the lake b:chuckle). Morai was very hard to judge since it is full of players. Some of them pick up their drops, others dont, sometimes theres a bot picking them. All chaos. I think im gonna value morai at another 15 bots worth of coin generation. This bring us to 38 total, a few more on the high levels areas of the world map and primal maybe so lets say 60.
    60 * 300k * 168h = 3 bil.

    ...


    Through DQ items, I've seen myself alone average about 4.5m a night (8-9 Hours, after repair costs). I'm also surrounded by what now seems like 5 to7 other bots around me.
    The coins picked up for me range between 600k-1.5m

    And with recent trips to OHT worlds, there's botting there too... not sure of the amount they gain but I'm sure it's there.
    Although very hard to judge, i feel as if this has gone underestimated.

    Through botting, the coin has been spread out much more versus before with BH where only a few lucky individuals get coin which may be kept and never spent.
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  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The problems I have with this assumption are quite simple. Firstly, only a subset of Supply Tokens are turned into SoWs. Secondly, only a subset of Supply Tokens are used as soon as they are generated.

    So supposed this week only half the tokens are used. But also the half that wasnt used last week is used. Does it matter ? Thats a simplifcation of course, but if tokens are created at a rate of 100k per week, they will eventually be used at a similar rate or else over time the token surplus would reach to the moon.
    I did not assume they are all turned into SOWs, so whats up ?
    Again, this is based on a random guess. If you wanted an actual number, I'd suggest spending a 24 hour period monitoring world chat for unique BH squads. That would give you a pretty solid minimum for the number of BHs being done per day. From there, you can indeed assume that every squad generates ~3.25m coins.

    Not entirely random of course, but indeed it would be better to actually count the WC squads instead of estimating it based on what i think it looks like from just being online every day. Im too lazy.
    Man, you're way underestimating this. Also I don't see why you would ignore the value of DQ items, when the higher ones can still be sold for more than 1 coin.

    And the areas that you should be checking for botting include: Morai, Primal, Momaganon, Lothranis, Avalanche and Land of Buried Bones, at the very least.

    I didnt ignore the value of DQ items, I looked at what i remembered to make in the past. And substracted only what they used to be worth then to other players in the form of DQ points. Green Legend is the first to claim that this coin per hour aspect is wrong. This makes me think he is probably exceptionally succesfull. If my assumption of coin per hour would be very low, there would have been more QQ there. I checked 3 out of the 6 you name and then almost doubled the number because i was too lazy to check the others as well.

    I must say i was surprised myself when i counted the bots i was thinking "heh are all these areas so small ? Are there this few bots ? noone is gonna believe me..." And this was mostly because they areas are smaller than i felt they'd be. The density of bots was pretty much as i expected. There are however only 2 nice plains in Loth and a few valleys in Momagnon that are suitable for botting. Again, in primal i go every day, all over the map and bots there are extremely rare. On my server. Indeed i did not think about OHT. I imagine it cant be too much though with the time limitations and whatnot.
    2000 gold in a week? Man, you're dreaming. There are dozens of big time merchants on every single server. All of those merchants are going to be buying several hundred if not thousands of gold each.

    I was one of those merchants, I know what im talking about. Those who buy huge amounts dont do it over the AH because simply if you try doing that, you bought the whole list that is on offer and all of a sudden youre paying 50% more for the last ones. If you put more than 2 offers per day in the AH for 50 gold each, you will strongly notice that you are pushing up the price. And there arent dozens such merchants, there is a handfull of big ones a load of tiny ones. As with any estimation i could be off a bit, but not to a degree to warrant your bullcrapping.
    And I wonder about what your point here is. I don't think that anyone seriously thinks that botting is the largest coin generator in the game. The issue is that it's clearly a major, new contributor.

    There is no point, thats the whole thing. And as i said in my openingspost, come with better numbers, dont just QQ. Unfortunately those who feel it doesnt say what they want it to say (even though i never intended it to say anything and in a response i explained that i feel it indeed has a very big influence on the economy)Youre the first i reply to because your arguments are the most unfounded/plain wrong/total bull**** just because you want to QQ.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Evryn - MoraiEvryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    First, a remark:
    There is 20% chance for 2mil and 5% chance for 5mil for an expected value of 650k per toon.
    Take and do all 7 lvl 80 Jolly Jones quests. Profit for on average 30 minutes of playing (assuming you've grabbed a cheap 3.0 eventgold flier and a basic mount for moving about): 158k+88k=774k

    Pure botting profit, provided autoculti doesn't stall out on me (which seems to happen with increasing frequency on Morai, and not just for myself - other bots, even nonlegal ones, seem to freeze up at random times) is about 4 million per day, and my char used is a BM - not the best botting char by a longshot. In order to reach that I need to sell/repair once per day - the bot will not do more then 14 hours before weapon breakage - which is fine, I let it run while I'm at work. Gives me a good bit of XP too. I have chosen a small area where mobs spawn in a small cluster, so I know no others are nearby.

    I'm going to tentatively say that archers would make roughly 6M a day after costs - they are faster (movement speed bonus on selfbuff) and can kill very quick - and tend to killsteal from melee folk (rage, stabfishies, rage). Can't say this for certain yet but working on confirming this ;)

    In the merchant-versus-botter debate, be aware of one very big distinction:
    Merchants do not "create" new coin, they simply move it from one player to the next.
    Merchants will not inject fresh coin into the economy like botters do. Players still need to make those coins from somewhere. Botting is a source of coin-from-nothing, basically free money. And even a small amount of that can have an adverse effect on an economy.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

    Ulsyr 103/103/104 BM. Working on the last R9 part (Axe).
    Khelvan 103/103/103 LA Cler. LA? LA. Deal with it.
    Evryn 103/102/101 Sagely Mystical Myst of Mystiness.
    Gromth 102/102/102 Sage Panda.
    StoneSnake - Snakeshop for everyone's common stones.
  • WannaBM - ArchosaurWannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    First, a remark:

    Take and do all 7 lvl 80 Jolly Jones quests. Profit for on average 30 minutes of playing (assuming you've grabbed a cheap 3.0 eventgold flier and a basic mount for moving about): 158k+88k=774k

    Pure botting profit, provided autoculti doesn't stall out on me (which seems to happen with increasing frequency on Morai, and not just for myself - other bots, even nonlegal ones, seem to freeze up at random times) is about 4 million per day, and my char used is a BM - not the best botting char by a longshot. In order to reach that I need to sell/repair once per day - the bot will not do more then 14 hours before weapon breakage - which is fine, I let it run while I'm at work. Gives me a good bit of XP too. I have chosen a small area where mobs spawn in a small cluster, so I know no others are nearby.

    I'm going to tentatively say that archers would make roughly 6M a day after costs - they are faster (movement speed bonus on selfbuff) and can kill very quick - and tend to killsteal from melee folk (rage, stabfishies, rage). Can't say this for certain yet but working on confirming this ;)

    In the merchant-versus-botter debate, be aware of one very big distinction:
    Merchants do not "create" new coin, they simply move it from one player to the next.
    Merchants will not inject fresh coin into the economy like botters do. Players still need to make those coins from somewhere. Botting is a source of coin-from-nothing, basically free money. And even a small amount of that can have an adverse effect on an economy.

    Thank you. The money the bots make vastly depends on their equipment (1 shotting the mobs helps a lot) So think both you and Green Legend can be right (he talks about 500k per hour while if i read you correctly, you talk about 200k per hour or so)

    Jolly jones is nice for new players who are happy about 774k in half an hour, but i dont think many people keep doing it for very long. Thats why i didnt try to make an estimate of it.
    BHs take 10-15 minutes for a similar reward. Come to think of it, i indeed probably estimated the BHs too much because there are also very unpopular BHs. While i do believe about 5000 toons do aba/sot/lunar, maybe only half that number does their BH delta/eu.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Evryn - MoraiEvryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I myself still run jollies daily - but I got 2 comps beside eachother, so I can run em synchronously for 1.5m in little over 30 minutes. Far more then you can get with bots in that time... But yea, it can get tedious. Some days I don't feel like doing the fighting quests so I just trash those.

    Botting returns vary on a few factors:
    - How fast you move (running speed). Archers have an advantage in consistently high running speed. Lunar G15 boots help too.
    - How fast you kill (dps, damage per hit too - at least 40% dmg on the first hit locks the drop to you)
    - At what range you kill. Obviously, the more range, the better - to get that first hit in. Archers and Psys have a big advantage in this.
    - How much competition is in your area.
    - How much the mobs you're attacking drop.
    - How big an area you set: does your bot run out of targets or does it keep shooting and picking nonstop? Bigger pick area is not always better!

    My BM has the issue of running out of targets on occasion... his DPS is also lower when compared to sins. So yea, he won't have the top gains, not by a longshot. I was offering my experiences as a low-end suggestion.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

    Ulsyr 103/103/104 BM. Working on the last R9 part (Axe).
    Khelvan 103/103/103 LA Cler. LA? LA. Deal with it.
    Evryn 103/102/101 Sagely Mystical Myst of Mystiness.
    Gromth 102/102/102 Sage Panda.
    StoneSnake - Snakeshop for everyone's common stones.
  • Annalyse - Heavens TearAnnalyse - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,618 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Indeed i did not think about OHT. I imagine it cant be too much though with the time limitations and whatnot.

    Only Unicorn Forest has limitations (2 hours, but if you time it right you can get more blood and go back in. I know someone that bots there like that but most people definitely wouldn't bother). But now that you don't need the chrono chain to enter the past worlds, OHT itself probably has a decent amount of bots and I know on HT Valley of the Scarred gets loads of them, because the mobs there are so easy to kill. Moonshade mobs are more difficult so I can't imagine it would have many.

    Also, Morai on HT is so overrun that people are ksing each other constantly. There is one area outside Shroud where I saw 6 people in a small amount of space, all running into each other. It's pretty ridiculous in there. My sin personally is more in the 300k/hour range (non-2x), but mostly because she's in a spot where the mobs are a little more spaced out so she is running a lot. There are so many bots that there aren't many spots left to choose from. When I do base quests I always see at least 10 botters at the basilisks.

    As far as JJ quests.... you can definitely make a lot of money there, and I know people who kept masses of alts in the 70s range just for that, but I like those quests because it is hard to make money at that level for a new character so JJ allows them to keep up with buying skills and gear.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Annalyse (veno) - Melosa (cleric) - Glynneth (archer) - Pickerel (sin)
    Florafang (wiz) - RubixCube (barb) - Laravell (psy) - Diviah (Mystic)
    Torchwood (BM) - Sataea (Seeker) - Wystera (Sin) - Allissere (SB)

    Looking for a mature faction on HT? pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=760842
  • Fissile - ArchosaurFissile - Archosaur Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    As far as gold quantity is concerned 2000 gold per week through AH is probably pretty close (within a factor of 2). I have in the past been able to buy 10,000 gold in a week (back when it was like 1.3m) through the auction house, but lately it is uncommon that I can get even 1000 gold in a week. I only know a couple other merchants that buy gold in those kinds of quantities and frequently we end up fighting over the high bid in AH.

    I'd imagine an equal or greater portion bypasses auction house to sell gold (boutique items) between players directly to circumvent the fees.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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