Sacrificial Strike vs g16

peckked

The chance of getting -0.05 int in one specific spot is the same. However, NV3 having 3 spots which can host that -0.05 int vs NV2s results in 50% greater chance to have of getting one -int.

To illustrate:

P(NV31xint) = 5% + 5% + 5% = 15% or 1 in ~7 rolls
P(NV21xint) = 5% + 5% = 10% or 1 in ~10 rolls

This doesn't seem like much of a difference and in truth it's not. However, looking at 2x -int is very different.

Since I know the chances of getting 1x int I'll use that as a base.

P(NV22xint) = 10% * 5% = 0.5% or 1 in ~200 rolls
P(NV32xint) = 15% * (10% + 0.5%) = 1.575% or 1 in ~63 rolls (includes the possibility of 3x int)

And just for fun let's see what happens when we want specifically SS or GoF on NV2

P(NV22xintSS) = 1.575% * 46.5% = 0.732375% or 1 in ~137 rolls
P(NV22xintGoF) = 1.575% * 2.5% = 0.039375% or 1 in ~2540 rolls

Keep in mind that only these last 2 options will be close to being able to compete with NV3 with 1x int in terms of average DPS and even the latter will still fall short more often than not due to 2 more spots for additional damage adds on NV3.

Edit: Just did a quick check with an old spreadsheet I stole somewhere. Used 650 dex and 2.86 base APS in case someone's interested.

For Demons:
NV3 -0.05 @ +10 has 330,854 DPS
NV2 -0.1 w/ GoF @ +10 has 294,476 DPS
NV2 -0.1 w/SS @ +10 has 282,206 DPS

Oddly enough it's the other way around when looking at Sage it's the NV2 with 2x int and SS/GoF that pulls ahead, though I've not taken into consideration other possible damage adds.

For Sage:
NV3 -0.05 @ +10 has 217,095 DPS
NV2 -0.1 w/ GoF @ +10 has 232,103 DPS
NV2 -0.1 w/SS @ +10 has 222,432 DPS

WannaBM - Archosaur

Ah only 2 stats. I saw 3+ on the linked pages and assumed 3. But now i see it includes the extra stat.

In that case of course it is 1 in 400 for the G15 vs as mentioned earlier and is indeed in my memory, 1 in 130 or so for the G16.

edit:
(5%*5%*95%) * 3 = 1 in 140,35 for 2 out 3 (+ 1 in 8000 chance for 3/3 makes indeed 1 in 13x.)

2 out of 2 requires ofc no math. 5%*5% = 1 in 400

I dont see those numbers in your post and im quite confident about them. something is wrong in your math i think.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

She does not use her skills and genie, I do. I out DPS her because my playstyle is build around killing things efficiently. I make use of all the advantages. Yes, skills take time, but they are worth it. If you can not see that, I have nothing else to say to you.

GG.

what is the point in this? u out dps somebody who not use genie but u use? i dont understand it how u compare if one use potion another no, something like in pk someone use charm and another no

I can do 3-3 Colleast with no buffs, the same from Primal fear. But I also kill these bosses in a reasonable amout of time, because attack lvs actually matter, much more than an over flow of chi.

could do same with r8 set+12 and full deity stoned with demon sin... no need buff at all, buff just save your charm after ur gear refined to +12 and got maxed def passive...

+attack level is nice, but after u use example deity aps set for farm and blessing box the CoD advantage is less

You will find that the loss of DPS when using skills is MINISCULE compared to the dps G16 gives.

yes not huge but exist because during u do a skill another do 7 attack what is 700% base dmg, this difference higher with more stat and 3rd spark when u use skill without really higher base dmg ratio (so any skill except elimination)

(thats the best example why casters with high weapon% or fixed dmg skills get after r9+rebirth stats alot less advantage compared with fast skill with low %weapon dmg)

WannaBM - Archosaur

as for the chi stuff, i think it greatly depends on how much chi you need. If you can make do with only the instant casts (inner harmony, cloud eruption, master Li) no or virtually no time is lost.

If you are going to need to use shadow escape and rising dragon, you lose so much time that it could get you killed.

The value of all the extra chi a 5aps can have is limited. Both subsea and powerdash are not as great as they look on first sight. They give a few seconds worth of extra dmg (their dmg enhancement * 8s) but cast time must be substracted. If the chi needs to be special made for them, its terrible.

Conclusion:

Having more chi than needed to maintain triple spark is worth something, but not huge in dmg output. Much more se though in the ability to spark resist extra often and to not run dry when stunned / sleep a bit.

If you are short on APS to maintain perma spark but you can fix this for the duration of the fight with instant chi skills, not much is lost. If you need to cast non instant skills, then indeed much is lost.

Little use to cast non-instant chi skills in order to generate chi for subsea/powerdash for apsing. It might look fancy but youre not killing stuff faster really.
(it is very usefull of course for example for aoe 2-shotting mobs)

Dblazen - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

If you are going to need to use shadow escape and rising dragon, you lose so much time that it could get you killed.

1. Why would you use shadow escape to gain chi over RDS and tackling?
2. Could get you killed vs what? The semi-aps set I use is a R8r one, 2.5 unsparked, 3.33 sparked, and I use RDS/tackling slash to make up for the "lost" chi. So far it never got me killed in... ages.

Nothing in this game, also pre-nh, requires 4-5 aps to farm, nor does it need sage for the protection from the spark.
If you know what you're doing in PvE at least.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Dblazen - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1. Why would you use shadow escape to gain chi over RDS and tackling?
2. Could get you killed vs what? The semi-aps set I use is a R8r one, 2.5 unsparked, 3.33 sparked, and I use RDS/tackling slash to make up for the "lost" chi. So far it never got me killed in... ages.

Nothing in this game, also pre-nh, requires 4-5 aps to farm, nor does it need sage for the protection from the spark.
If you know what you're doing in PvE at least.

1 You dont choose 1 skill over the other. One maybe could consider doing so when the other chi gain skills are on cooldown. If cooldown werent a factor, one would only ever use innerharmony.

2 Getting killed was maybe an overstatement. But it does take a considerable time where you have no BP heals. There probably are things where it could get you killed, depends on your toon what is the edge of your abilities where it can get you killed. For me it would be an apsing steelation for example. I tank its aps with sage BP, but if im gonna stop attacking for 2 seconds, that will be a serious suicide attempt.

nothing in this game requires what ? Surely it doesnt REQUIRE 4-5 aps to solo 3-3. A caster can for example tank steelation with 0.5 aps or whatnot. If you are talking about a sin solo farming, the requirements to solo 3-3 are very considerable and either 5aps or sage spark is not your main worry, it is a basic, something that you obtained long before already.

peckked

@WannaBM afraid your statistics are flawed. The method you used would assume that there is not a finite limit to the number of times int can be obtained, kinda like flipping a coin or rolling dice (ie. what are the chances the next 2 will be -int). When you are limited to a specific number of chances (ie 2 for nv2 and 3 for nv3) a different tact is necessary to get the correct probability.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Im afraid i dont agree

Ok.. Ill explain how it works, but im gonna leave it at one post this time. Had too many multipage endless math discussions on this forum alrdy.

you have 3 slots that can be int or not. 5% int 95% not.

To have double int, that makes 5%,5%,95%. The chance of this happening is easy multiplication, makes about 1 in 420.

You can have them in different positions however. You can have the 95% at 3 diffeerent spots. so 3 options to get the double -int. Therfore, we can multiply the chance by 3. This makes the 1 in 140.

If you want 2 out of 2, it is of course simple. Both are 5% chance, only 1 possibility so 5% * 5%. is 1 in 400.

If you want 3 out of 3, the same. only 1 possibility, 5% * 5% *5% = 1 in 8000. You can add this to the 2 in 3 chance if you want 2 or more.

peckked

The probability of getting 2x int on say nv3.

Chances of getting 1 is 15%. I think we agree up to this point. The probability of getting a 2nd assumes that you have gotten that first 1 in any position. This leaves 2 more spots where you can get int. Chances of you getting int in one of those 2 is 10% and there is a small chance to get both -int, 0.25% (seems I put 0.5% in my earlier calculations earlier... oops).

So to get the possibility of 2x int would be 15% * (10% + 0.25%) = 1.5375%

1/0.015375 = 65

Therefore, 1 in 65 rolls should be 2x int or better (3x int).

WannaBM - Archosaur

OH well 1 more then.

Sorry, i am sure my calc is correct and yours is wrong. Read carefully my explanation, look at the existing formulas and even online calculators that you can google for this stuff and you will find out

I just realised it is **** to calculate the 3 out or 3 seperately from the 2 out of 3 and then adding them though.

instead should just do 5% * 5% * 100%. since it doesnt matter what you get on the 3th (int or non int) So that leaves 1 in 400 * 3 = 1 in 133.3 to get 2 or more.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

peckked wrote: »

The probability of getting 2x int on say nv3.

Chances of getting 1 is 15%. I think we agree up to this point. The probability of getting a 2nd assumes that you have gotten that first 1 in any position. This leaves 2 more spots where you can get int. Chances of you getting int in one of those 2 is 10% and there is a small chance to get both -int, 0.25% (seems I put 0.5% in my earlier calculations earlier... oops).

So to get the possibility of 2x int would be 15% * (10% + 0.25%) = 1.5375%

1/0.015375 = 65

Therefore, 1 in 65 rolls should be 2x int or better (3x int).

seriously how u got that formula? if chance for something 0.16% then getting 2 is 0.16*0.16=0.0256%*3 (i guess need multiple by 3 because 3 slot) = 0.0768%

arent this way calculated?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I agree with hubby. It is like comparing gas milage of your hummer and my toyota. You can say "oh but its all about driving style" and sure maybe your grandma can get a better milage in the hummer than me pushing the toyota to its limits. But that is irrellevant. Its about the car, not the player.

Similarly whilee some player may not use its genie skills and do worse with better gear than the one who uses genie skills with inferior gear, both players will do better with better gear.

I would have to disagree here. Objectively speaking if a player lack in a certain area, they can use gear to make up for what they lack.

This was a strawman and very dishonest to say the least. We are comparing toyota to toyota, not hummer to toyota. If you want to make that comparison, its similar to aps sin vs aps seeker. To say how a player uses the tools provided does not make a difference is ludacris. Just because you can not do something with a particular peice of gear, does not mean another player can not. And IF that player can do what you can not, its better to ask yourself why rather than just complain they are different. Obviously they have some knowledge you lack. It's always a factor, even when considering these discussions. Chi is the only advantage g15 has to g16 in this discussion. It even loses then with higher odds for int on g16. It then loses again when comparing SS dps to 40 atk lvs.

DPS wise and BP heal wise g15 is left in the dust, therefore at some piont that extra chi becomes irrelevant, and you would be better off with more DPS. Hence 'better gear'. But one player will make better use of said better gear than the other, increasing the efficiency gap. Making playstyle a bigger factor. You can not say it is not, even when talking about the daggers themselves.
Some players get used to sparking as soon as they get 3 sparks, they actually lose several seconds of DPS. This is one example.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Starting to remember why I usually simply ignore Dion, walls of text which make little sense.

More chi > less chi. You can argue bout playstyles but it wont change facts, the other will always be better. Just cause it can be managed with weaker option doesnt make weaker option better or even as strong. I will have just as much knowledge bout my class if my weapon is N2 or N3, skill in discussion like this really doesnt matter one bit as it is constant to both options. I really cant put it any simpler than that.

Ps. But I think I am done with this convo, just the whole "my only defensive skill is ToP" is stupid on so many levels I doubt there is much we can offer to each other.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Some players get used to sparking as soon as they get 3 sparks, they actually lose several seconds of DPS. This is one example.

then they do 500% base dmg per sec (that include the 500% weapon dmg from spark aswell-totally the base dmg with spark is around 1700%-1800% weapon dmg) vs skill damage per sec

if we are here then also +40 attack level not +40% damage in pve if ur base attack level is 100, with 1k normal damage then 100attack level make 2k dmg, the 140 attack level make 2.4k, so 20% dmg boost in this case, what is egually with e. posion and became more less boost how ur attack level going up (example both sin add jonas blessing etc)

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Starting to remember why I usually simply ignore Dion, walls of text which make little sense.

More chi > less chi. You can argue bout playstyles but it wont change facts, the other will always be better. Just cause it can be managed with weaker option doesnt make weaker option better or even as strong. I will have just as much knowledge bout my class if my weapon is N2 or N3, skill in discussion like this really doesnt matter one bit as it is constant to both options. I really cant put it any simpler than that.

Ps. But I think I am done with this convo, just the whole "my only defensive skill is ToP" is stupid on so many levels I doubt there is much we can offer to each other.

Sorry but I distinctly remember T3 G16 being the stronger option regardless of the chi. As I stated, the only arguement for 5 aps g15 IS chi. I guess you missed that point.

You seem to be so wrapped up in trying to attack my credebility rather than argue. You then dishonestly make this comparison simply about chi. Well I can do the same.

More DPS> less DPS.

See how that works? By that same comparison:

G16>G15.

You argue one thing, while ignoring that this argument was never simply about said one thing. It was about DPS usefulness vs the use of extra chi. If you can't argue both comparisons, rather than 1. Then why argue at all?

Provide me a premise (other than chi), as to why the 5 aps g15 is the better option vs 4aps g16. If chi is your ONLY premise, which i have already stated g15 wins on, then you are not only misrepresenting the OPs post, but mine as well.

GG.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

then they do 500% base dmg per sec (that include the 500% weapon dmg from spark aswell-totally the base dmg with spark is around 1700%-1800% weapon dmg) vs skill damage per sec

if we are here then also +40 attack level not +40% damage in pve if ur base attack level is 100, with 1k normal damage then 100attack level make 2k dmg, the 140 attack level make 2.4k, so 20% dmg boost in this case, what is egually with e. posion and became more less boost how ur attack level going up (example both sin add jonas blessing etc)

My normal attack on TT bosses does about 7-20k (average). This comparison doesn't even scale that high, and I can barely comprehend it. Also attack levels have diminishing returns.

Verenor - Morai

Since this thread is a bit far off the tracks..
Thank you all who contributed to my question and have helped me somewhat resolve the reason this thread was made. As reminder:

5-aps G15: 124,348 dps (not counting Sacr.Strike)
4-aps G16: 137,378 dps

Adding Sacr. Strike to that brings G15 5aps to:

5-aps G15 + SS: 139,892 dps

A difference of 1.8%, higher than 4aps G16.


In terms of numbers, G15 is more DD (and purely focussed on DD. Chi-gain, survivability and skill-use were, and still are out of the question at hand.)

In terms of being practical: Rolling double -int g15 can be tricky, and as other's have mentioned as well, it could take in the hundreds of rerolls. Rerolls are luckily cheap and almost free by doing NW regularly.
Rolling single -int g16 is as easy/easier than getting a single -int on G15 due to the 3 additional effects instead of the 2 on G15: with G16 3 times 5% chance to get -int. However rerolls are about 10 times as expensive, making it inadvisable to go for double -int.

In the end it is far more practical to use G16 4aps over G15 5aps, not only for the DD purpose, [insert other purposes previously mentioned in this thread], but also for the fact that 4aps can always be upgraded to 5 aps swapping -int Tomes around. We will all agree 5aps G16 > 5aps G15.
With that feature which G15 has not, I have my answer from this thread as G16 being the better solution. The 1.8% in DD can be neglected, wether you do 100k dmg in one sec or 102k damage is really not worth rerolling 500 times for.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but I distinctly remember T3 G16 being the stronger option regardless of the chi. As I stated, the only arguement for 5 aps g15 IS chi. I guess you missed that point.

You seem to be so wrapped up in trying to attack my credebility rather than argue. You then dishonestly make this comparison simply about chi. Well I can do the same.

More DPS> less DPS.

See how that works? By that same comparison:

G16>G15.

You argue one thing, while ignoring that this argument was never simply about said one thing. It was about DPS usefulness vs the use of extra chi. If you can't argue both comparisons, rather than 1. Then why argue at all?

Provide me a premise (other than chi), as to why the 5 aps g15 is the better option vs 4aps g16. If chi is your ONLY premise, which i have already stated g15 wins on, then you are not only misrepresenting the OPs post, but mine as well.

GG.

You really dont read posts. In my first post I said I preferred N3 as the weapon choice for farming toons for having great quality compared to low cost. I have nowhere said N2 is better, period. Arguing like I have is the dishonesty you are talking bout.

I only commented due you babbling nonsense how chi is only bout playstyle. I never spoke of weapons(outside of my comment regarding N3), only bout chi and its impact. If and when there is same dps, higher aps due chi gain will be better for farming toon. Though due the reasons in latest post I would agree N3, even at 4aps, is more appealing due the ability to go 5aps with tome.

Ps. You lost any credibility to me with your comment regarding ToP. Not that it had really gone up from "Leveling headhunt is waste" days.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

You really dont read posts. In my first post I said I preferred N3 as the weapon choice for farming toons for having great quality compared to low cost. I have nowhere said N2 is better, period. Arguing like I have is the dishonesty you are talking bout.

I only commented due you babbling nonsense how chi is only bout playstyle. I never spoke of weapons(outside of my comment regarding N3), only bout chi and its impact. If and when there is same dps, higher aps due chi gain will be better for farming toon. Though due the reasons in latest post I would agree N3, even at 4aps, is more appealing due the ability to go 5aps with tome.

Ps. You lost any credibility to me with your comment regarding ToP. Not that it had really gone up from "Leveling headhunt is waste" days.

In my humble opinion. The best for farming is the one that farms the most efficiently, and for the least cost. I do not find G15 efficient.

Sorry that I have a preference in genie skills, it's too bad. However I don't dismiss anything you have said due to simple preference, I only dismiss it when you can not explain why you think like you do. As for ToP, I prefer the HP gain since it scales nicely with me having a swapable r9rr set, in which i can gain massive amounts in a short amount of time. And i can do it while, stunned, sealed, or slept.

As for leveling headhunt. Would you level a skill you barely use in PvE, just because someone else tells you you should? Cursed Jail is probably one of my most used skills in PvP, but in PvE, I rarely use it. I do what is best for you, and you do what is best for you. Until you can give me explanation as to why something is better, that I DON'T know about, then please do. But I am very aware of why you feel the way you feel about certain things, but I operate differently. The least you could do is respect that. And your superiority complex is off putting. To say the least. Or do you think you always know best?

"More chi > less chi. You can argue bout playstyles but it wont change facts, the other will always be better. Just cause it can be managed with weaker option doesnt make weaker option better or even as strong. I will have just as much knowledge bout my class if my weapon is N2 or N3, skill in discussion like this really doesnt matter one bit as it is constant to both options. I really cant put it any simpler than that. "

See in this example you never state, that the DPS is equal, you only state that "more chi>less chi". Now where in this quotation is direct mention of DPS? Was it implied? Because if so, I missed that notion.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

Since this thread is a bit far off the tracks..
Thank you all who contributed to my question and have helped me somewhat resolve the reason this thread was made. As reminder:


Adding Sacr. Strike to that brings G15 5aps to:

A difference of 1.8%, higher than 4aps G16.


In terms of numbers, G15 is more DD (and purely focussed on DD. Chi-gain, survivability and skill-use were, and still are out of the question at hand.)

In terms of being practical: Rolling double -int g15 can be tricky, and as other's have mentioned as well, it could take in the hundreds of rerolls. Rerolls are luckily cheap and almost free by doing NW regularly.
Rolling single -int g16 is as easy/easier than getting a single -int on G15 due to the 3 additional effects instead of the 2 on G15: with G16 3 times 5% chance to get -int. However rerolls are about 10 times as expensive, making it inadvisable to go for double -int.

In the end it is far more practical to use G16 4aps over G15 5aps, not only for the DD purpose, [insert other purposes previously mentioned in this thread], but also for the fact that 4aps can always be upgraded to 5 aps swapping -int Tomes around. We will all agree 5aps G16 > 5aps G15.
With that feature which G15 has not, I have my answer from this thread as G16 being the better solution. The 1.8% in DD can be neglected, wether you do 100k dmg in one sec or 102k damage is really not worth rerolling 500 times for.

Good luck on your daggers. A friend of my got hers today and rolled 2x int, and +1 atk lv, on the first roll. She could barely breathe.