Rework the defense reduction skills and remake old lv79/100 skills

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Like title say could be nice if we dont get another huge nerf to class debuff skills like:

Blademaster: Glacial Spike
Wizzard: Undine Strike
Archer: Thunder Shock
Cleric: Elemental Seal / Dimensional Seal
Barbarian: Penetrate Armor / Devour
Venomancer: Ironwood Scarab / Myriad Rainbow
Mystic: Spidervine debuffs

How it worked when the 3 class was out:
-no 150 stat from 2 rebirth
-no 100+ stat from 3rd set and engrave
-no primal passive with 56% pdef/mdef (yet, but look like later will be more level for passive)
-no nw tome, 90 less stat

Now:
overall now nearly endgame caster get DOUBLE mag, same with str the BM, Seeker etc

Result:
450 more stat is 45*1.2% defence what is 54% defence (pdef or mdef) + 56% from passive is 110% new defence near the base 100% (unbuffed) and buffs (60% mdef or 120%-255%def depend on class)

The debuff applied to equipment defence so to 100% base defence only not defence from stat point and skills but now another 54% defence from stat and 56% defence from pasive made huge nerf on debuffs


if u reduce opponent defence by 50%, have difference between opponent got 150% from 200% or 250% from 300%? i guess

more visible on non buffed caster if a sage barb use sage devour then pdef droped from ~100% to 50% but now dropping to 106% from 156%

or thundershock vs unbuffed end game caster was 104% from 154% and now 214% from 264%....

also few old lv79 skill range like udine strike kinda outdated, same with effect like manifest virtue, but overall already dph skill get less advatange than in begining be cause with double mag/str/dex the bonuse 100% equipment damage not really visible at all after 900 mag dex etc stillting time long on dph skills casting time or cooldown sometimes

Zoldi - Morai

First thing would be to know why they added new defensive armors and passive buffs.
If the goal was to make debuff less effective and people harder to kill, then...

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

First thing would be to know why they added new defensive armors and passive buffs.
If the goal was to make debuff less effective and people harder to kill, then...

u mean they made useless... u played this game around 2008 (or 2007 who played pw my-en)?
was debuff and still was balanced alot alot more than no, now then 50/60% debuff on full buffed target less effective than extr. posion...

so nice if long ago they made 79 debuff example to wizzard for make balanced then few year after that they destroy it totatly and not even update the range on skill or something, but similiar on bm ulti what cost 2 spark but now on endgamed full buffed target not really hurt too much the debuff....

if they want reduce the damage that ok, make damage reduction passive, its make the dmg less on peoples but sometimes dont destroy the buff/debuff's

Zoldi - Morai

Yeah I played on PW-MY so even if I took a huge break at some time I was there when they introduced 79 skills and so on.
And anyway I didn't say if this was a good thing or not. I just meant that if this was intended, then they probably won't change anything back before some time.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Yeah I played on PW-MY so even if I took a huge break at some time I was there when they introduced 79 skills and so on.
And anyway I didn't say if this was a good thing or not. I just meant that if this was intended, then they probably won't change anything back before some time.

i think they breaked the system... in pw my i felt this game balanced, was chance vs every class with every class (exclude barb because they was very hard to kill but this is ok if they are tank then must be tank)

since defence vs ressist%, jumped so high but we use same old ressist% formula, with same old reduction curve formula, i think its breaked the debuff with their new solution to other problem and i hope they once realize and try fix it and not just make it more screwed like atm...

they just shift the problem to different offset

i would live if once they reconsider about why was alot more balanced the game and why was roll for each class long ago and now not even close to that...

trands

I see what you mean but I can't say I'm all that unhappy with how it became. With genies, there became a pretty big gap between classes with no/moderate defense debuff ability and those who could totally wreck defenses. Like 1 class (wizards) almost forcing every class to have a counter genie skill with no other use ... Can't say I want that back.

Personally, I kinda enjoy the fact that things favor group pvp over 1vs1. I don't particularly like that last one, so I don't care that much. Classes with the ability to reduce defenses to 0, no ty, never again (though I didn't have issues with the low proc chance of demon ironwood). If they rescale things overall, sure why not. But the ridiculous gap in % of debuff that can be attained will make that impossible imo.

In the old days, the problem didn't exist that much. Wizards had the best debuff, but they were squishy back then and they couldn't use 3 different debuffs on 1 target themselves. For me the starter issue lies there : genie giving to much debuff ability to 1 player. Which now gets overly-compensated which actually still hurts the classes without own defense debuff (or same as accessible through genie) most but makes the ones who previously had a too powerful tool rage.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

i don't said make spark again that strong, i talk about class buffs/debuffs only, also was bad when barbs reicived high damages after r9's and attack levels thats why said balance broked but this ain't fix too much, now few class became superior in defence what was built to be different (ex. end game assassin with full buff), broken the rolls "who dph, who dps caster" after the weapon % dmg on skill became non noticeable sometimes

The class debuff: (i dont talk about the genie debuff)
-they could make something like class debuff skill reduce stat+base+primal passive defence (still higher with primal passive after passive than before) but genie debuff dont reduce only the equipment defence, then spark not op, still player can use his class debuff with normal effiency

The class magic attack buffs:
i would say about changeing the mattack buffs, now 50% equipment fire damage/water/wood damage kinda nothing, why? i doubt any barb use mdef debuff on target and end game heavy get over 15k mdef (really over with buff maybe 20k with nw neck +12), 50% wood damage became nothing after most of damage comeing from stat now, just a bit math lets say axe+ring have 3k avarage dmg, pvp penalty is 1/4 so 50% eq dmg became less than 400 then lets add the 75-85% magic damage reduction on class, what u see? u deal in good case 80 wood damage? this not lol?

so instead of 50% equipment magic damage they could make 10% base physical attack bonus dmg in magic, then have a bit more sense and not same on 300 str/dex barb/archer or on 900 str/dex char.

trands wrote: »

I see what you mean but I can't say I'm all that unhappy with how it became. With genies, there became a pretty big gap between classes with no/moderate defense debuff ability and those who could totally wreck defenses. Like 1 class (wizards) almost forcing every class to have a counter genie skill with no other use ... Can't say I want that back.

Personally, I kinda enjoy the fact that things favor group pvp over 1vs1. I don't particularly like that last one, so I don't care that much. Classes with the ability to reduce defenses to 0, no ty, never again (though I didn't have issues with the low proc chance of demon ironwood). If they rescale things overall, sure why not. But the ridiculous gap in % of debuff that can be attained will make that impossible imo.

In the old days, the problem didn't exist that much. Wizards had the best debuff, but they were squishy back then and they couldn't use 3 different debuffs on 1 target themselves. For me the starter issue lies there : genie giving to much debuff ability to 1 player. Which now gets overly-compensated which actually still hurts the classes without own defense debuff (or same as accessible through genie) most but makes the ones who previously had a too powerful tool rage.

trands

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

i don't said make spark again that strong, i talk about class buffs/debuffs only,

The problem was that class debuffs and genie debuffs stacked to create ridiculous defense reductions. If you make the class defense reduction debuffs stronger, combined with genie debuffs we'll be back at the state before : no ty.

The gap between classes without defense debuff and those with is smaller now, and I'm happy with that. The pvp gets forced more towards teamplay to take down targets quickly, and I'm not unhappy with that.

Yes I understand your point, but I don't agree. The current state makes it almost impossible to kill any full buffed enemy solo. But at the same time it makes me way more tanky as well in that case. This makes NW and TW more interesting. I also can get rid of SoF, which was the only frequent enough counter while my servers has barely any strong wizards. Selfbuffed 1vs1 is pretty much the same.

Again : I understand what you say but I like that PWI gets forced more into teamwork for group pvp, and I like that the gap between debuff and non-debuff classes got smaller. And since I know your next "argument" coming up : I'm around since october 2008 while playing most classes at least a bit.

Flarephoenix - Dreamweaver

Your equations only show the defense side of the increases we've seen ingame, what about the attack aspect where all classes have had a huge attack gain in added stats from rebirth and the war avatar cards?

I think the passive defense buff was required with further increases to attack and defense because the gap between attack and defense has been getting larger and larger with every gear upgrade. This expansion IMO did not take away the ability to debuff for extra damage as much as moderate the effect of purge and debuffs, which had been left to get stronger in past upgrades.

Some debuff skills probably need a rework but without looking at the whole picture, particularly the recent attack increases, how can we judge how that aspect of gameplay has been affected?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

trands wrote: »

The problem was that class debuffs and genie debuffs stacked to create ridiculous defense reductions. If you make the class defense reduction debuffs stronger, combined with genie debuffs we'll be back at the state before : no ty.

The gap between classes without defense debuff and those with is smaller now, and I'm happy with that. The pvp gets forced more towards teamplay to take down targets quickly, and I'm not unhappy with that.

Yes I understand your point, but I don't agree. The current state makes it almost impossible to kill any full buffed enemy solo. But at the same time it makes me way more tanky as well in that case. This makes NW and TW more interesting. I also can get rid of SoF, which was the only frequent enough counter while my servers has barely any strong wizards. Selfbuffed 1vs1 is pretty much the same.

Again : I understand what you say but I like that PWI gets forced more into teamwork for group pvp, and I like that the gap between debuff and non-debuff classes got smaller. And since I know your next "argument" coming up : I'm around since october 2008 while playing most classes at least a bit.

this absolute not true, few class can kill, others can't solo now, fact few class needed to be tanky but few was maded for deal damage, until now few class really easier killable in 2vs1 until few NON tanky class still hard to kill even 3vs1...

also not make defensive passive was the problem, just make non instant debuff what sometimes also cost chi sometimes or other stuff now became more useless, really ineffiecient until ex. zerk crit/non elemental damage/attack level stuff etc don't really was nerfed that much with def passive, kinda no point if u say genie debuff stacking was op then instead nerf genie skills and rescale then they nerfed class debuff and buff aswell

what about the attack aspect where all classes have had a huge attack gain in added stats from rebirth and the war avatar cards

and yes we got alot damage from card and stat, same with defence.
this look by 1:1 on offense and defence part until u dont start firgure out this also nerfed the debuffs ( and few buff what worked based on eq% but this i guess less annoying), so became 1:2 advatange to defence

scaleing something what maybe too strong is 1 thing, but use universal fix sometimes break the balance.

in old pw not was easy kill other class without luck or sometimes still was chance (y, even wizz vs archer was both sided) (i don't talk about genies because genie not was part of the game when lv79/100 skill was made for make balance but sadly genies was out they dont scaled to much them after few month [only in beging when was different more stat type depend concept like mag needed for more skill etc])