Cleric (Sage) Vs BM

HESOKA - Raging Tide

Okay so read the following and you will just notice how ridicules of a fight it would be between a BM and an end game sage cleric.

Things to note:

Cleric Skills:

Plum shell: absorbs 85% of incoming physical damage for 20 seconds - 30 chi - Cool Down 30 seconds
Chromatic Seal: Puts the enemy to sleep for up to 38 seconds. 20 chi
Seal of God: sealing the enemy and imoblizing it for 15 seconds ( the enemy takes 90% less damage)

Vanguard Spirit: grants an additional 100% physical defense for 10 seconds.


Now lets us begin:

During a 1v1 between a BM and a Cleric, Due to Plum Shell The cleric will always survive 20/30 seconds of the fight - mana Charm CD is only 5 seconds - Therefore the only chance the BM has is on the duration Of CD a 10 seconds Gap, so now picture this scenario : (Note: all of these Scenarios are supposing the BM never gets killed)

Mana shield has gone for almost 20 seconds and the BM is ready to cary out the DD plan:

Case 1 :

The Cleric Sleeps the BM (up to 38 seconds) before Plum Shell is gone and rebuffs Plum Shell after 10 seconds , the bm then will have to wait another 20 seconds, only to get Seal of God before Plum Shell disappears, the BM will than wait another 20 seconds to cary out his/her DD plan only to get slept again for up to 38 seconds - the BM will then have to wait another 20 seconds and its deja-vu all over again.

Case 2 :

Suppose the cleric has already used up both his sleep and SoG (Seal of God) and His Plum Shell is about to run out (Almost never is the case):

The BM is about to Cary out the DD plan however the cleric buffs him/herself with Vanguard Spirit, For the next 10 seconds it is impossible for the BM to out DD 100% more physical res of an endgame cleric. by spamming the skill and heals for the next 10 seconds they can rebuff Plum Shell and start all over again, in order for the BM to by-pass this scenario the BM will need to keep the cleric locked for 10 seconds and another absolute minimum of 5-7 seconds in order to evan come close to a kill. That is equivilant to 17 seconds minimum of stun lock.

Case 3 :

Supose the BM is attempting to disable the cleric for the 10 seconds of Vanguard Spirit buff, allowing the cleric not to spam buffs nor heals, he manages to do so for 10 seconds now it is time for the BM to cary out the actual DD skill, However Weapon prock ticks, the cleric kites rapidly away from the BM due to it and rebuffs mana shield again , now the BM will have to wait for another 20 seconds and hope to by-pass case 1 and case 2 again.

Case 4 :

The absolute incredibly rare occasion : The BM Has by-passed Case 1, Case 2 and Case 3 ("Weapon did not and will not prock") The cleric than will finaly use his/her genie - kite - and rebuff mana shield or Vanguard Spirit - now the BM has to wait for another 20 seconds by which genie is already back not to mention if he will have another chance he will need to by pass Case 1 , Case 2 and case 3 all over again.

Case 5

What must actually occur for a BM to kill a sage Cleric:

The BM needs to tank the cleric for 20 seconds , immune to stun and time will serge perfectly to bypass SOG when the cleric buffs up Vanguard Spirit the BM will than disable the cleric from healing buffing for 10 seconds, and than keep the cleric stun locked for a minimum of 5-7 seconds and pray for zerk-crits (All in which Weapon prock must never prock) The cleric than uses Genie to survive (suppose expel) The BM is also required to keep the cleric stun locked during expell so that they are not able to tab apoth ( vacuity powder or any other) for 9 seconds duration, After expell is over the bm will continue his stun lock which has now already piled up to a 26 seconds lock and finally stun lock for an additional minimum of 5-7 seconds and hope and pray for zerk-crits. Keep in mined that is a total of 33 seconds of stun lock by which if weapon procked at any point the whole DD plan is ruined.


Now that you've read through this, what kind of bull ***** advantage do sage clerics have towards Physical DD class? it is as if a Seeker was given a Plum Shell-like skill for magical damage which a wizard is trying to kill

Adroit - Lost City

Or you could just derp around with purge pole and attempt to kill after a purge. Bonus points for a chi drain genie or a high vit/mag genie with faith, adrenaline surge, will surge, and heart of steel. It may not be easy, but it isn't nearly as hopeless as you seem to think it is.

HESOKA - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Or you could just derp around with purge pole and attempt to kill after a purge. Bonus points for a chi drain genie or a high vit/mag genie with faith, adrenaline surge, will surge, and heart of steel. It may not be easy, but it isn't nearly as hopeless as you seem to think it is.

Yes in fact that is the best chance a BM would have, what i stated above in Case 5 is impossible i was being sarcastic, but Why should a 1v1 be reversed to a purge scenario? it is too unpredictable,

1) You can purge the cleric but get slept or sealed b4 stunning.
2) Who knows how long you'd be hitting before you get purge prock.
3) Evan if you manage to get a purge prock you still have weapon prock which will ruin the DD plan.
4) they can always use there genie and rebuff again -> sleep/seal and in the mean time genie is back

In my Opinion:

(i will not state that Plum Shell, Vanguard spirit or Chromatic Seal should be nerved). However

Seal Of God must and should be 2 Spark Cost, creating a limit on how long they can keep the opponent locked, ATM SoG only requires 1 spark by which can easily be gained back in 15 seconds. (what do you think about this?)

Edite : 2 sparks cost

Adroit - Lost City

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes in fact that is the best chance a BM would have, what i stated above in Case 5 is impossible i was being sarcastic, but Why should a 1v1 be reversed to a purge scenario? it is too unpredictable,

1) You can purge the cleric but get slept or sealed b4 stunning.
2) Who knows how long you'd be hitting before you can a purge prock.
3) Evan if you manage to get a purge prock you still have weapon prock which will ruin the DD plan.
4) they can always use there genie and rebuff again -> sleep/seal and in the mean time genie is back

In my Opinion:

(i will not state that mana shield should be nerved or sleep or Vanguard spirit). However

Seal Of God must and should be 3 Spark Cost, creating a limit on how long they can keep the opponent locked, ATM SoG only requires 1 spark by which can easily be gained back in 15 seconds. (what do you think about this?)

I think you are just complaining about nothing. If it bothers you that much.. use a chi drain genie. I can guarantee you that if you are draining a cleric's chi it won't be using sog every 30 seconds. You seem to forget that after a purge you have a one shot combo (glacial spike -> smack) just catch them once w/o genie and it's over.

CielDeLumen - Raging Tide

It's certainly true that the purify proc is really hard to get around.

Aside from that, though, a couple points:

Granted, I am only 86, however I have beaten several 100+ clerics, up to T3 gear, so I have a slight idea of what it is like.

For the plume shell, I have little trouble stunlocking the cleric until it disappears. It has never taken 20 seconds (to my knowledge), but granted I am not fighting top-end r9rr+12 clerics. Even after it disappears, I can still stunlock them until I win.

With regards to the sleep, it is fairly predictable when the cleric will use it, and I usually time a forward leap or will of the bodhisattva to avoid it. After all, if one of my stuns does not proc and they escape the stunlock, the first thing they do is run about 3 steps and try to sleep me. Also, the sound and action are recognizable. If nothing else, an anti-sleep skill on genie would be usable.

Though I have not had SoG used against me, it has a 1 second cast time. I typically save my Smack for quick interrupts when needed, and would likely use it at this time. Furthermore, even if hit by it, you essentially have a free invoke, and the cleric will use this time to heal and/or debuff rather than kill. You can retsart stunlock once it begins.

With regard to the stunlock time, even though I am only 86, I have had no difficulty stunlocking for the 33 seconds you mentioned. Depending on how much I depend on aeolian blade, I may use smack, looking like this: roar (6), DB (6), AB (3), roar (6), DB (6), smack (3), AB (3), roar (6), DB (6), AB (3), roar (6). I'm usually at 30-50 chi by this time due to chi usage, but strictly using an axe combo of mine I can get about 54 seconds of stun time. Fairly reliably, too. A sage bm with all his skills would have blade hurl (added gets rid of purify chance during this time), flame tsunami, reckless rush, and reel in added to this. Also, all his stunlocks would cost less chi. I didn't mention genie here, but you could also add occult ice in here.

Granted, I have no endgame pvp experience. However, only concerning the things you mentioned, with the exception of purify, this is still fairly 'balanced' (I use this term with care, but in this case it means that both classes have chances of winning depending on skill). Even expel can be stunned through with roar or even just sharding with elemental attack rather than physical.

Just my two cents. Hope it helps!

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I've never been beaten easily by blademasters in 1vs1, but then again, on my server there are none with gear even remotely close to mine (that pvp regularly anyways). But I have seen videos of what bms can do, and I've been on the receiving end of some good bm strategies in group pvp situations, so I theorize that in 1vs1, a bm should be able to have a chance at killing me.

Some things bms can try to take advantage of:

-save your running skill for when cleric gets a purify proc; clerics are slow buggers, start your fighting by leaping to them instead

-keep your magic marrow and (if demon) demon bell up frequently, and you won't take much damage from a cleric

-purge pole is a must

-keep a mental timer on seal of gods (30s) so you can know when to expect it next, and then use will surge to ensure you get time to attack

-drain chi as much as possible, and most clerics won't be able to use a 1 spark skill every 30 seconds (even I can't do that if in violet dance, though I can easily do it if in normal mode; but then in normal mode, you have no fear at all of dying to me)

HESOKA, you may want to reword your opening post; you are confusing the terms 'Chromatic Seal' (our sleep) with 'Plume Shell' (our skill to absorb physical damage using our mana pool).

HESOKA - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

HESOKA, you may want to reword your opening post; you are confusing the terms 'Chromatic Seal' (our sleep) with 'Plume Shell' (our skill to absorb physical damage using our mana pool).

Ops xD

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ops xD

You said oops, but you didn't fix your post lol.

HESOKA - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You said oops, but you didn't fix your post lol.

b:surrender Fine i fixed it xD

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I should point out something important here. Yes, a cleric who doesn't want to die to a blademaster can keep a bm at bay ALL DAY LONG. True story. However, a cleric who wants to KILL a blademaster can't keep the bm at bay at all times.

The first problem is chi management. If a cleric is constantly spamming plume shell (20 chi), sleep (20 chi) immobilize (20 chi), seal of gods (1 spark), as well as purify (also 20 chi), they can zap through their chi really fast. No chi, no lock. When I just want to keep you at bay, I can make up that chi by spam healing, say, stream of rejuvenation. However, in violet dance mode, gaining chi takes a lot longer, and I'll need to be in violet dance mode to kill any worthy bm.

The second problem is, a bm is rather tanky at end-game. Ordinary combos won't do. You actually need to attack the bm consecutively for a number of seconds. Forget about trying to charm bypass an endgame bm, it just will not happen. A cleric needs to be in violet dance mode, have a full stack of healing debuffs on the bm, have the bm fully debuffed, tick that bms charm, and get 2-4 hits off on the bm before the bm reacts (which he'll have ample opportunity to do via ports, stuns, genie, apoth, running skill, sparking...).

Think about our two main skills: sleep, and seal of gods. Unlike a stun or immobilize, I cannot really kill you with those debuffs on you. If I hit you with sleep, I break the sleep, then you can react. If I hit you with seal of gods in, yes, I can do *some* damage to you with mark of weakness, but you'll never die inside of seal of gods, only afterwards.

When I have actually fought decently geared bms, I sometimes have to let them catch up to my melee range. I cannot, after all, outrun a bm, nor can I prevent him from using anti-stun to catch up to me. Sometimes I put some distance between me and the bm, just to have them leap back into my melee range.

Add to this the fact that I have to find the time to actually hit the bm a number of times, and often I'll end up doing some damage with bm hitting me at same time. In other words, the situation isn't quite as hopeless as you'd think. I cannot kill and perfectly lock a bm down. I have to give up part of my lock to do enough damage, and that means a bm has quite a few opportunities to attack me, and lock me down instead. I cannot have fortify ready for every stun lock a bm can dish out.

Plus it goes without saying that any bm worth his salt will have a spirit blackhole pole. The ideal time to get a purge is right after I've put plume shell in...an occult ice at that point can often kill me if combined with hf. This is actually the reason why I tend to *avoid* plume shell unless absolutely necessary (that, and chi management).

HESOKA - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I should point out something important here. Yes, a cleric who doesn't want to die to a blademaster can keep a bm at bay ALL DAY LONG. True story. However, a cleric who wants to KILL a blademaster can't keep the bm at bay at all times.

The first problem is chi management. If a cleric is constantly spamming plume shell (20 chi), sleep (20 chi) immobilize (20 chi), seal of gods (1 spark), as well as purify (also 20 chi), they can zap through their chi really fast. No chi, no lock. When I just want to keep you at bay, I can make up that chi by spam healing, say, stream of rejuvenation. However, in violet dance mode, gaining chi takes a lot longer, and I'll need to be in violet dance mode to kill any worthy bm.

The second problem is, a bm is rather tanky at end-game. Ordinary combos won't do. You actually need to attack the bm consecutively for a number of seconds. Forget about trying to charm bypass an endgame bm, it just will not happen. A cleric needs to be in violet dance mode, have a full stack of healing debuffs on the bm, have the bm fully debuffed, tick that bms charm, and get 2-4 hits off on the bm before the bm reacts (which he'll have ample opportunity to do via ports, stuns, genie, apoth, running skill, sparking...).

Think about our two main skills: sleep, and seal of gods. Unlike a stun or immobilize, I cannot really kill you with those debuffs on you. If I hit you with sleep, I break the sleep, then you can react. If I hit you with seal of gods in, yes, I can do *some* damage to you with mark of weakness, but you'll never die inside of seal of gods, only afterwards.

When I have actually fought decently geared bms, I sometimes have to let them catch up to my melee range. I cannot, after all, outrun a bm, nor can I prevent him from using anti-stun to catch up to me. Sometimes I put some distance between me and the bm, just to have them leap back into my melee range.

Add to this the fact that I have to find the time to actually hit the bm a number of times, and often I'll end up doing some damage with bm hitting me at same time. In other words, the situation isn't quite as hopeless as you'd think. I cannot kill and perfectly lock a bm down. I have to give up part of my lock to do enough damage, and that means a bm has quite a few opportunities to attack me, and lock me down instead. I cannot have fortify ready for every stun lock a bm can dish out.

Plus it goes without saying that any bm worth his salt will have a spirit blackhole pole. The ideal time to get a purge is right after I've put plume shell in...an occult ice at that point can often kill me if combined with hf. This is actually the reason why I tend to *avoid* plume shell unless absolutely necessary (that, and chi management).

Agree in some and disagree in some things:


Yes, a cleric cannot easily kill an endgame BM during magical marrow, taking damage of 2ks (1k on magical charm) will never get anyone a kill, however By Seal + Sleep + Seal, The BM will no longer be on magical marrow, and even being endgame, with de-buffs can take 16k Crits or more if the cleric decides to 3x spark.

You stated that when playing a cleric you do not have Stun or sealing skills to keep the BM at bay, When slept or sealed, the moment those end you have time to react , but whats there to react If the BM is down to 30-35% HP (without marrow), by-passed charm already and considering these following cases:

Will Die if crit (outside of magical marrow) :

40% of occurring after Mark of weakness

Will Die if Elven Bloom procks works:

Elven Bloom : 35% Chance to seal

.:.Thus 75% the cleric will kill the BM, every time they go offensive.

To add i-mobilizing a melee target wile being long cast yourself does in fact come very close to being considered a stun or a steal. or at least a way of causing the target to use up CC Skills, genie or apoth.


Both Class's being endgame, the fight might last a little while, but my point is, the cleric is too in control of the fight, they are immortal when playing defensive, and are extremely dangerous when going offensive. and can be both at the same time (with plum shell), after facing a cleric in a 1v1 Private server, it occurred to me that they can go offensive, burn my apoth & genie, go back to defensive, by which i cannot come close to killing, than quickly return to offensive and the fight usually ends after two offensive combos.

I've also played a cleric in a private server, (very boring class to play in my opinion, due to being the same constant method of killing ) prefer melee class's , barbs , sins and BMs but anyways, I've never gotten killed by a BM, he may have been unskilled, but i was hardly ever close to dying.


Honestly the only way i manage to kill clerics is, purge - occult (a quick stun to not allow them to rebuff) and land a few zerk-crits,. evan so, you will need two purge procks (the first to get the cleric to use genie) the second (is to actual ill the cleric), but non the less but you'd be stupid to think the cleric will give you that kind of time to be smacking with purge pole, try it yourself, see how long it takes to get two purge procks - when you consider a high Vit & Mana genie, with sleep and seal , always kept at bay, it becomes close to hopeless.

It takes far too much prediction, timing , luck , and skill overthrown over Purify prock to attain a kill, it is not out of the blue, suggestion SoG to cost 2 sparks. i can only imagine how a wizard or a psychic can handle such a class with no Immune to CC skills.

P.S: After a 1v1 challenge with a cleric as a BM, it occurred to me what a blessing Tidal Protection is. In fact i do not 1v1 clerics with any other class's anymore, the constant seal - sleep - seal (plum shell, heals ) seal-sleep-seap becomes really irritating of a fight.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I dunno... I think you underestimate bms.

Firstly, if ANY class triple sparks on you, you'll need to react with genie. Cleric's aren't special in that way.

Secondly, if I'm not triple sparked, there's no way I can tick the bm's charm while he is slept, and then kill him in one hit. Not endgame, jaded bms, even if marrow did run out.d At minimimum it would take two crits that aren't blocked by magic defense charm (hence why I said 2-4 attacks).

Thirdly, my combo takes a while to set up. If I execute a perfect lock, then the bm has oodles of time to recover his genie or apoth cooldowns. (Already mentioned that maintaining a lock burns a lot of chi, so me triple sparking frequently isn't all that easy either.)

Fourthly, heart of steel really benefits heavy armor classes. Unlike light or arcane armors, if a bm sticks in heart of steel, I cannot kill him with plume shots, even if magic marrow is in. A smart bm would use spirit of defense apoth, and then save heart of steel for when I triple spark, knowing that unless I get super lucky, he won't die from an unsparked metal combo.

'But he is self-buffed'. I had this same discussion already with archers: why the hell would a bm stay self-buffed? My chances of purging the bm are low (purge genie) to none (no purge genie). Spirit of defense already! If a bm genuinely feels he has a disadvantage, then he should have no qualms about using spirit of defense buffs. Buffs are often in a bm's favor: the bm can purge a lot more easily than the cleric can. Which is my fifth point:

Bms can purge pretty easily. If I were the bm, I'd start the fight with pole, and use it to execute the basic stun lock when I get the chance, to increase chance of random purges. There is no question that a bm can do enough dmg with a decent tangling mire + zerk crit, or hf + crit to bypass my charm. In a recent fight the other day, I had a 9.9k zerk crit on me from a bm when I had only blood vow's debuff on me, and nothing else, while I was buffed.

Finally, bms have lot of 'outs'. They have all of the usual ones: genie, or apoth (dew is preferred since then I can't chip hp back to half again very quickly after your charm ticks). They also have leap back, weapon disable, their ranged seal, and of course a variety of stuns. They can also put their marrow back in instantly. No matter where I attack the bm from, he has an 'out'. If I immobilize him when he is more than 10 meters away (11m is ideal for me) he can leap back out of my attack range. If I immobilize him when he is closer, he can occult ice me or seal me. Weapon disable's range is pretty far too, not exactly sure what.

All of this together means that a good bm will take a lot of resources for me to kill. The very fact that I probably need to triple spark to kill the bm lets him defend more easily, by saving genie for triple sparks. Heart of steel is a low energy, low cooldown skill. The rest of the time, the bm can use his genie for occult ice, chi burning, or tangling mire, to pressure me and create openings. My strategies are reliable but take a lot of time and some luck to work. A bm's strategy is to survive *until* he gets lucky, at which point the fight could end in a blink.

Quilue - Sanctuary

So you're saying clerics can't use buff pills as well?

Clerics advantage in 1v1 is being in control of the fight, and this applies to cleric vs most classes. I can't believe more people haven't noticed it so long after Morai update, but whatever. Most people are still in that stage of PvP awareness where they think archers are OP.

Inb4 someone actually faces a well geared veno in 1v1 and realizes that, too, can be pretty ****ed up.

Unholly - Morai

I think the point was that the bm has an easier time purging a buff pill than a cleric does.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Im not the greatest bm but personally I find a cleric a rather comfortable ride as a sage bm. Even if they manage to lock you down for long enough for marrow to drop it can be recast very very quickly + HoS, makes a bm a metal magic eating machine.

Probably a rather noob strategy for killing a cleric but I have a thing for high strength tangling mire + Drake bash/Smack, if they are at 50%~ health. It is relatively low cost and if they GoF/Crit will do substantial damage. Even if this doesnt manage to simply charm bypass you have just ticked their charm, started your stun lock with a substantial pdef debuff. At the least you normally make them burn something. Fingers crossed PS doesnt proc.

Doesnt Blade Tornado still go though plume shell?

Edit: I dont know if this will help but I bind my marrows to E/Q and just mash them every 10/11 seconds. It helps if you can still have all your damage skills on your 1-5, minus one for sutra if so needed. From what I have experienced people who are relatively new to Bms tend to either have their marrows unbound and so they get neglected a bit more than they should or they bind them to their 1-5 and so cut down on other skills that can be used in those slots. Having them bound to keys will get them back up that little bit quicker if a cleric has slept you for long enough for them to wear off.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

I think the point was that the bm has an easier time purging a buff pill than a cleric does.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Im not the greatest bm but personally I find a cleric a rather comfortable ride as a sage bm. Even if they manage to lock you down for long enough for marrow to drop it can be recast very very quickly + HoS, makes a bm a metal magic eating machine.

Probably a rather noob strategy for killing a cleric but I have a thing for high strength tangling mire + Drake bash/Smack, if they are at 50%~ health. It is relatively low cost and if they GoF/Crit will do substantial damage. Even if this doesnt manage to simply charm bypass you have just ticked their charm, started your stun lock with a substantial pdef debuff. At the least you normally make them burn something. Fingers crossed PS doesnt proc.

Doesnt Blade Tornado still go though plume shell?

Edit: I dont know if this will help but I bind my marrows to E/Q and just mash them every 10/11 seconds. It helps if you can still have all your damage skills on your 1-5, minus one for sutra if so needed. From what I have experienced people who are relatively new to Bms tend to either have their marrows unbound and so they get neglected a bit more than they should or they bind them to their 1-5 and so cut down on other skills that can be used in those slots. Having them bound to keys will get them back up that little bit quicker if a cleric has slept you for long enough for them to wear off.

Correct about blade tornado. Seems like your post contains some sound advice to sage bms out there. At endgame, you won't be hurt by a few plume shots, so heart of steel becomes a really great counter to metal damage.

juicybluca

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Correct about blade tornado. Seems like your post contains some sound advice to sage bms out there. At endgame, you won't be hurt by a few plume shots, so heart of steel becomes a really great counter to metal damage.

^this

HoS on genie = gg wp cleric

@ very endgame, gettin killd by a cleric is really a shame... since, with HoS, anyclass kinda becomes impossible to kill for a cleric
its not like a wizard where the debuff comes almost simultaneosly with the nuke,

a cleric needs to chain multiple debuffs and ofc after the debuff chain u press HoS and gg wp





oh i almost forgot, nerf sage tidal b:chuckle

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Blade tornado very much goes through damage reduction buffs; it's still an aoe bleed of sorts (the closest I can describe)

Quilue - Sanctuary

Let's just say at endgame a cleric won't have much of a chance to die unless the cleric takes the necessary risks to try for a kill. You have HoS, they have Expel.

This is especially true if the fight is in the air.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let's just say at endgame a cleric won't have much of a chance to die unless the cleric takes the necessary risks to try for a kill. You have HoS, they have Expel.

This is especially true if the fight is in the air.

One on one every class stands a FAR better chance of killing the other, it becomes more about skill than just differences in gear/innate abilities. In other words 1 on 1 fights depending on how well prepared/skilled they each are... will determine how long the fights go on.

In that sense I think I can see why a few people say its your skill... but yea in my honest opinion skill becomes more relevant in 1 on 1 fights... but in mass pvp... its more about out-gearing/being able to survive a but load of attacks, or being able to easily close the distances with a significant amount of ease.

When the fights are one on one, and they are both in equal gear it becomes a question of who has more skill... you could have the most haxed skill in game, but if your opponent can counter it, or knows it well enough, and can indeed counter it... then your opponent will win. (There is an unfathomable number of intangibles to take into consideration when trying to figure out why you or your opponent may have lost.

Also this is so true. + It's an EPIC song. :P

In other words I feel like melees are the knives, and casters and archers are the gunfight(er)s. (I am not saying they should be weakened or anything, but still they do have some innate advantages that I feel should be taking into account before boosting their def or attack any further... but yea others feel differently and that's fine they are more than allowed to do so... its their mind not mine.)

Quilue - Sanctuary

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One on one every class stands a FAR better chance of killing the other, it becomes more about skill than just differences in gear/innate abilities. In other words 1 on 1 fights depending on how well prepared/skilled they each are... will determine how long the fights go on.

Sure...except 1v1 is when a cleric's single target disables become more pronounced than if it were a mass fight. Every class does not stand a better chance to kill each other in 1v1, that doesn't even make sense. I can kill people fast when I'm not their target.

In that sense I think I can see why a few people say its your skill... but yea in my honest opinion skill becomes more relevant in 1 on 1 fights... but in mass pvp... its more about out-gearing/being able to survive a but load of attacks, or being able to easily close the distances with a significant amount of ease.

Actually skill shows in mass fights as well. Nobody really survives a butt load of attacks unless the other faction is just really, really outmatched. However good your gear is, there are 10-30 people on the other side with the same or better gear and you can drop in an instant. Teamwork, awareness of surrounding, and timing makes a lot of difference. Some people get R93 and become another cookiecutter DD, other people get R93 and get called out as serious threats. At some point, it's just not about gear anymore.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sure...except 1v1 is when a cleric's single target disables become more pronounced than if it were a mass fight. Every class does not stand a better chance to kill each other in 1v1, that doesn't even make sense. I can kill people fast when I'm not their target.

I stand by my opinion that each class does have a better chance of killing another class in 1 on 1 fights, as 1 on 1 fights removes a LOT of the intangibles that come up during mass pvp play. (You only have to focus on the skills of your opponents and not a billion (YES a hyperbole) others... ergo its far easier to counter what your opponent might throw at you.) So yea.. I ama have to stick with my opinion that 1 on 1 fights allow skills to play a FAR larger role in the fight(s)... again not saying it doesn't take skill to survive in mass pvp. I just feel that skill allows you to overcome gear differences a lot easier in 1 on 1 fights. Ergo I feel skill can play a larger role in 1 on 1 fights, than mass pvp. (I get it not everyone shares this opinion, but still it is my opinion, and I am NOT changing it)

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually skill shows in mass fights as well. Nobody really survives a butt load of attacks unless the other faction is just really, really outmatched. However good your gear is, there are 10-30 people on the other side with the same or better gear and you can drop in an instant. Teamwork, awareness of surrounding, and timing makes a lot of difference. Some people get R93 and become another cookiecutter DD, other people get R93 and get called out as serious threats. At some point, it's just not about gear anymore.

I so didnt mean for it to come out like you interpreted it... skill does indeed show in mass pvp, but I for one believe it becomes more... noticeable/easier to actually show up in a 1 on 1 fight, than in mass pvp. (I am not saying that it doesn't take skill to survive in mass pvp, nor am I trying to say there is more skill involved in 1 on 1 fights. I just feel its easier to see first hand so to speak when each person isn't dealing with multiple people trying to take them out.)

EDIT 2: All the things you listed while each does undoubtedly play a role in mass pvp, it doesn't really show the skill level of the individual, especially if it becomes harder for each member to account for everything else being done around them, teamwork, etc relies on a lot more variables to tie into each to be effective, but aye when everything aligns correctly in a 'team' and they are indeed skilled... it shows, and aye it does take a lot of skill/syncing to pull all that off correctly. (Edit: I agree at some point (<-- KEYWORDS) it isn't so much about gear anymore in mass pvp. I so wasn't trying to say that gear truimphed all in mass pvp. :$)

Edit: Since I have a feeling this will eventually arise and become an issue.

I am NOT saying a vast gear of difference in a 1 on 1 fight can be overcome by differences in skill... if your a one shot to your opponent and make just 1 mistake the person who vastly outgears you will undoubtedly one shot you... but really who doesn't make a mistake every now and then? If the person with crappier gear who is in a 1 on 1 fight wins 9 x's out of 10 then I think its safe to say the person in crappier gear is skilled... or at least far more skillful than the person who outgears them. (If you take the same 'skilled' person and put them into mass pvp, and they're dying a lot more due to all the extra variables some might start to question if he's skilled.... just another reason why I believe skill shows up a bit more in 1 on 1, than in mass pvp.)

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Hmm... I partially agree with you Slivaf. Some skills are more noticeable in 1vs1 pvp, for example, how well you can predict your opponent's moves, and how well you chain your skills together into effective combos. Or in other words, tactical skill becomes more noticeable in 1vs1.

Group pvp, while definitely more gear dependent, also relies on skill. However, that skillset is quite different from 1vs1 fights.

For example, for myself, I'm pretty darn good at 1vs1 pvp, because of my ability to tune out the surroundings and focus hard on a single enemy. That skill, however, doesn't help at all in group pvp---its actually a problem. Group fights require the ability to sense surrounding danger by piecing together many bits of data from all around you, to gain an overall sense of how the battle is faring, while still focusing to an extent on individual people for snippets of time.

Because of this, group fights tend to be based much more on strategy than tactics. Who you attack, how you attack, and how you move are all quite different in group fights.

I know some people who are fantastic in group fights, but are only average in 1vs1 battles. Conversely, there are people more like me who dominate in 1vs1, but are average in group fights. A few rare people are really good at both. The reason I think this is rare is because of the different nature of 1vs1 vs group battles. Expecting somebody to be really good at both is like expecting somebody to be an excellent tactician AND strategist at the same time. As I've already explained, though, focusing too hard on tactics hurts you when you are in group battles, and vice versa. To be good at both 1vs1 and group battles would require you to be able to switch quickly from tactical to strategical mindsets, depending on the situation.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

For example, for myself, I'm pretty darn good at 1vs1 pvp, because of my ability to tune out the surroundings and focus hard on a single enemy.

I don't want to burst your little bubble of look how awesome I am, but seeing as how Dreamweaver lacks any real competition in terms of gear, calling yourself pretty darn good in 1v1 is a little bit way out of context since there's like... very limited amount of people who are on par in terms of gear, sharding and refines as you have on your cleric, so what do you have to compare it with, Heartz? Merangelus?

Apart from the fact that PK on Dreamweaver is more like a tea party in west than anything actually happening and when something does happen it tends to turn into a teenage mellowdramatic drama in one way or another.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmm... I partially agree with you Slivaf. Some skills are more noticeable in 1vs1 pvp, for example, how well you can predict your opponent's moves, and how well you chain your skills together into effective combos. Or in other words, tactical skill becomes more noticeable in 1vs1.

Group pvp, while definitely more gear dependent, also relies on skill. However, that skillset is quite different from 1vs1 fights.

]

Believe it or not that is what I was trying to say. :$ (I know what I say sometimes can be very confusing to many people, but that is what I was trying to get at, in both my original post, as well as my reply to quile.

I often know what I am trying to say is true, I just often can't spit it out enough to keep it from getting misinterpreted which does happen a LOT.)

I do get it in mass pvp it is next to impossible to account for EVERY single intangibles that every single one of your opponents might throw at you. Still even if you have the best strategy or tactic in mass pvp... if you don't have the 'skills' or power to back it up then that strategy was more or less wasted time.

Example: If person A has a real badass strategy to lure someone (person b) into a trap, and spring it once their opponent is inside the trap, that trap will mean nothing if person A has to spring it on another person, in other words outlast your opponents strategy or even just being able to withstand their power... than person b will be the victor. If person b is alone, that trap is far more likely to work, however if he survives it person A will need a backup plan so all his or her planning isn't all for naught. Now if person A accounts for person B, not being the only one to 'fall' into the "trap" skill ends up showing more than a difference in numbers/power. (though I really think that example was unneeded)... This so reminds me of the story of 300... this is SPARTA! rawr.

So aye both power, and strategy/tactics play a role even while in mass pvp, but I for one feel skills (aka strategy/tactic's) can play a larger role in the outcome of a 1 on 1 fight where there are far less intangibles to account for.

Burnout - Harshlands

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

So you're saying clerics can't use buff pills as well?

Clerics advantage in 1v1 is being in control of the fight, and this applies to cleric vs most classes. I can't believe more people haven't noticed it so long after Morai update, but whatever. Most people are still in that stage of PvP awareness where they think archers are OP.

Inb4 someone actually faces a well geared veno in 1v1 and realizes that, too, can be pretty ****ed up.

Actually, I really did think clerics got the short end of the stick in the morai update, but after seeing the actual effectiveness of their skills a good UV cleric is pretty monstrous in 1v1. So I was completely wrong on that. They didn't get any "support" buffs, but they were fine on that part anyway. What they got was a HUGE 1v1/pvp buff.

I don't see how you can think a Veno is hard though. Besides purge they basically have similar CC capability as a mystic, but less damage and no absorb soul (it's actually pretty broken at 700+ magic...w/ full deities it oneshots EVERYTHING except a barb/phy marrow BM/seeker...those might actually require a spark).

Edit: After coming back to the game though and watching everything at R9rr levels and above...I do agree archers are no longer an exceptionally strong class anymore...and could stand to get maybe a buff or two.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I don't see how you can think a Veno is hard though. Besides purge they basically have similar CC capability as a mystic, but less damage and no absorb soul (it's actually pretty broken at 700+ magic...w/ full deities it oneshots EVERYTHING except a barb/phy marrow BM/seeker...those might actually require a trip spark).

Haven't met a good Venomancer then.
I'm not talking about myself, I still have lots to learn and improve, but a couple of the best ones on my server at the moment are really scary. Their CC is also majorly improved with the Monkey but very few have one (I don't have one yet either!).

Burnout - Harshlands

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Haven't met a good Venomancer then.
I'm not talking about myself, I still have lots to learn and improve, but a couple of the best ones on my server at the moment are really scary. Their CC is also majorly improved with the Monkey but very few have one (I don't have one yet either!).

Well at the moment just about every class in PWI can be scary...but a good veno is more annoying than anything else. I would say they're like a BM, except more focused on ruining the life of one target majorly instead of a lot of targets.

Unholly - Morai

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I so didnt mean for it to come out like you interpreted it... skill does indeed show in mass pvp, but I for one believe it becomes more... noticeable/easier to actually show up in a 1 on 1 fight, than in mass pvp. (I am not saying that it doesn't take skill to survive in mass pvp, nor am I trying to say there is more skill involved in 1 on 1 fights. I just feel its easier to see first hand so to speak when each person isn't dealing with multiple people trying to take them out.)

I couldnt disagree more. A lot of 1v1 fighting is based around good understanding of your class and your opponents coupled with technical skill to actually apply for advantages over your opponent. After a while it just becomes a matter of pressuring down your opponents survival abilities quick enough and having timings in your head of when their next survival skill will be off CD. But technical skill will cap, there is normally one (best) most efficient counter to your opponents plays. With a few other less efficient choices. But after someone knows all this and has the reaction time and knowledge to apply that there isnt much more skill you can squeezed in other than just second guessing their strategies. At equal gear people normally have a lot of outs and so if you make a mistake you can normally rectify it (1v1s are a lot more forgiving of mistakes).

After you have players that have hit their respective class skill caps it comes down more to if one class has an advantage over another, if one person has even slightly better gear or ping rates reaction times and less to do with skill.


However in Group PK you have to have:

1)A good understanding off all classes present.

2)Know the role your class plays in the team.

3)Have the skill and understanding of your class to survive as long as possible if focused by multiple people.

4)Map awareness is another thing that group pkers have to factor in which a 1v1 player just dont need to consider.

5)Positioning in team fighting is key as you will have multiple people you need to be at certain distances from and know the potency and threat of each person to make a judgment call. Whereas with 1v1s you only have the range of that one person to worry about.

6)Any mistakes you make in group pk can mean your instant death. (Take a Bm who is marrow switching for chi if you do this in a 1v1 and get stunned you have a better chance of surviving as you will only have 1 person beating on you even if only self buffed. However in Group pk phys maw can spell a very quick death or survival burn at the least. Due to the greatly increased kill potential of the group towards an individual player.)

7)If you are the lead you have to have skill in leadership knowing which classes best counters other classes, who in your squad are skilled/weaker than others and work with that also. Even if your not a lead you have to have the ability to make judgment calls on your own based on the current state of the fight.

~~~~~~~~

All of this coupled with the knowledge that you need to do well in 1v1 fights and probably more that i havent listed is needed for a skilled mass pker. I agree with you that general technical skill is easier to spot in a 1v1 scene where its basically who won the most out X fights. However it is my opinion that to do well in mass pk you need considerably more skill than in 1v1, although harder to spot as it will be mixed with other peoples skill levels, is more potent and harder to achieve.

Hum i have just reread your post and may of misunderstood the jist of what you were saying first time around. So disregard this if it is just jibber

EDIT: Yeah pretty sure i just waffled on with nothing to do with your original point. b:surrender sorreh

juicybluca

equal gears equal skills 1on1s are balanced?
hell no!

a cleric yes can survive (maybe) but wont kill in 1on1,
also sage tidaled 2x force stealth sins...

also i'd say that mass pvp requires a lot more skills and focus than 1on1s

while 1on1 you are completely aware of the class the gears and the skills you are facing, and you can "control" with ease

in mass pvp you have to be fast-reacting to multiple and sudden threats

if you overextend in a 1on1 nothing happens, if you do that in mass pvp you will most likely die

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

On Dreamweaver there is very little mass pvp. What little exists is organised by factions as events between their members. Relic have had a few. I'm sure Dyna have too.

Nation Wars is not mass pvp. Neither is TW, due to the fact that the sole objective in both is not to Pk.

Mass pvp is pitting 5-10 players vs another 5-10 players of broadly equal gears and classes in open PK on world map or the PK tourney perhaps. When you know what you are up against in advance and can plan and execute a strategy assign targets kill orders and preferably all on vent. Unless you have experienced this what you think it displays or what is required for it is just, no offence, hot air. I wont mention names. -.-

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

On Dreamweaver there is very little mass pvp. What little exists is organised by factions as events between their members. Relic have had a few. I'm sure Dyna have too.

Nation Wars is not mass pvp. Neither is TW, due to the fact that the sole objective in both is not to Pk.

Mass pvp is pitting 5-10 players vs another 5-10 players of broadly equal gears and classes in open PK on world map or the PK tourney perhaps. When you know what you are up against in advance and can plan and execute a strategy assign targets kill orders and preferably all on vent. Unless you have experienced this what you think it displays or what is required for it is just, no offence, hot air. I wont mention names. -.-

The PK tourney on DW is ruled by r9rr+10 or higher geared people honestly. I do it sometimes when I'm bored and pretty much run into +12 psys or archers in the very first room. With their range advantage and the seal npc, I have little time to react. GG.