Should we bother getting r9/r93r

ablabahabla

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just shut up with the insults will you?

It really doesn't seem like you have the faintest idea of what it takes to actually play a bm effectively in mass pvp.

Originally Posted by TheDan - Sanctuary View Post

Honestly you've gotta love supporting to love playing BM in mass PvP. They have a lot of flaws in damage when it comes to full buffs in mass PvP especially against casters, but they can excel in PK and small group PvP with a proper genie set up, but there's no getting around supporting in mass PvP.

It really isn't for everyone, but it's an important role in all mass PvP. They have the controls and the HF for spike damage that complement other DDs. If you want to go for the kills, this probably isn't the class for you to r9r3.

I for one would keep my r9r3 on my BM each and every time if I had to re-roll just because I cannot trust anyone else to support me in PvP. Most BMs on this game are horrible, and to have the tide turning class played by anyone else would make PvP that much worse.

It's so much easier to play a DD class, but they're also less useful when that is all everyone plays anymore. The melees really turn the tide when 80% of the server is DD as far as who gets to push on the front lines.

A lot of the flaws in BMs can be offset with a good genie set up though. I'll have a high magic genie for cloud, and tangling mire for group debuffs. The new leaps are amazing and many debuffs and sudden deaths can be avoided just like sins if timed properly.

I understand all of that, I really do, and I appreciate all the replies.

Still my problem remains, it seems quite unfair that a bm has to go through all that to just be effective in mass pvp, and using the genie for survivability would mean you would need to use apo for the chi issues that would undoubtedly arise.

What other class actually has to go through all that to be even remotely effective on at least one side of the kill or survive aspect of what the ultimate goals of mass pvp should be? There isn't a single class other than bm's that has to prepare their genie for survival, and use apo to be quite effective in mass pvp. (barbs have their HAXED *** shields, sins have their deaden nerves, focus mind, tidal protection, and even stealth to get near others, whereas everyone else has range on their side. What do bm's have? Leaps... sure the new leaps/morai skills are nice, but we still have some serious survivability issues that isn't mention that the new side effects of the leaps, aren't even 100%, and even with reel in/reckless rush, we still struggle to survive especially once in the frey.)

Every time I tab over and see a bm on my server while I am on my seeker in nw, I immediately feel sorry for them, and think wewt an easy target, and it isn't so much as a lack of skill that has me thinking that way, its more what I hit them for every time I hit them. (1.5k-2.8kish with a r8 +5 sword) Some of these bms I know are in quite decent gear too... and yet here I am hitting them far harder than even most casters... (yes I am throwing my physical ranged attacks at the casters) that just leaves me sad for bm's. My point is they don't live long at all if they don't use apo or chi.

this doesnt seem like u understood his main Point of if u want to kill People u shouldnt Play a bm.

Mentioning sins hax self buffs ... not gonna comment that at all. As for others haveing range and bms haveing nothing thats just wrong! bms got leaps ofc as u mentioned, they got marrows which really make them pretty tanky, my r9 bm has better defs then my r9rr archer, way better, and bms have skills that ignore def lvls and make them take half damage and be imune to stun during it, guess thats nothin we should be complaining about. All of u guys just have to become clear that bms arent DDs like wizards psys seekers. And your affection towards your seeker just Shows that u rly dont like the roll of a bm at all.

all dds use their geine for def 99% of the time except for seekers maybe since they are pretty tanky due to their buff. Wizards will spam windshield, aquaflame armor, fortify, ad and expel until they can go for the kill with spark.
Archers do the same pretty much and so do psys and eps and mystics! Even seekers do so cause of their lack of anti stun ability and they can even use fortify as a debuff...
so what skills do u use on your bm? holy path, mire, windshield, whirlwind, ad, faith?
mire and whirlwind are offensive used skills while the rest is def used skills, so cant complain about the effectivity of genies for bms, ist the same as for other classes, except for barbs maybe.

I definitly have a idea of what it takes toplay a bm, but if it insults u that u always seem to Forget the roll of a bm, im sorry for that lol
Prolly better for u to stick to your seeker anyways since u sure are someone who prefers the dd style of gaming.

and if u think archers are op, try to Play with them, u will be the first to target by any sin and u will get 1shot all over, just as a side note

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Most of the DW BM population consists of ancient Nirvy farmers and poorly geared aps toons.

For me meeting one of those when I have chi to spare for BV usually results in a hilarious 5 digit metal crit.

The good ones are a different question. I think Aelicia can still oneshot me with her r8r pole zerkcrit(? Think she has gof on that but not sure)

Aelicia is likely one of the best support bms on the server, despite her gear. Doesn't ever step into pvp, rarely ever gets a kill on her own, but she has a great way of finding those clusters of people and dropping those stun and hf bombs that allow our dds to lay waste. BMs, like venos, are offensive support. Sure they can kill people, but it is much more efficient for bms to simply lock down people so that others can kill. That is called teamwork!

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

ablabahabla wrote: »

this doesnt seem like u understood his main Point of if u want to kill People u shouldnt Play a bm.

EDIT: Oh I got his main point... but just because I 'got' it and understood it... does NOT mean I have to accept it... which is what I did.

from original post wrote:

I do not expect to be able to kill others; however, if I can survive multiple attacks from others and manage to get near an aa (who should have the lowest phys def in game) and I am hitting them less than other melee's... that is just irritating as all get out. (I realize it is a difference in gears.... but still.... a melee imho should be "rewarded" if they can survive a 'gank'/the harder hits and get up close. As it is now it tends to get to the point where we feel like we're having nukes thrown at us, and even though we managed to survive long enough to get near the person throwing nukes at us it's almost like they turn into an instant brick wall. (Which I for one find quite annoying.) Especially when its so difficult for bms specifically to get near others, and even our stuns have been rendered more or less useless thanks to genies, and the purify proc.

I even bolded that in the original post. TT

ablabahabla wrote: »

Mentioning sins hax self buffs ... not gonna comment that at all. As for others haveing range and bms haveing nothing thats just wrong! bms got leaps ofc as u mentioned, they got marrows which really make them pretty tanky, my r9 bm has better defs then my r9rr archer, way better, and bms have skills that ignore def lvls and make them take half damage and be imune to stun during it, guess thats nothin we should be complaining about. All of u guys just have to become clear that bms arent DDs like wizards psys seekers. And your affection towards your seeker just Shows that u rly dont like the roll of a bm at all.

Again marrows ARE a double edged sword until it is in end game gear/well refined ornaments and rings... that is when bms become far more viable an option for mass pvp. (edit) Not to mention the other things you mention dont even come close to guaranteeing a bm gets to his/her opponent and actually survive long enough... SPECIFICALLY in mass pvp. Where things are insanely chaotic!

Again I must point out this I get the SAME amount of points regardless of what class I am on... I get that a bm's roll is support << my real issue is that it is EXTREMELY difficult to play a support character without any real way of surviving. Yes there is apo, and marrows do become far more useful in end game gear but before endgame, and without genies life is quite unfathomable on a bm. (I think its fairly safe to say that there is plenty of bm's (especially on my server) who share that opinion of mine) The fact that I see so few bms in nw, and the fact that they get hurt badly often.

EDIT: It is FAR easier to play a support, or even just kill others on ANY other character than bm's, I still don't think that any other class has to use genies, or apo anywhere near as much as a bm... sure they do use it, but I for one believe bms have to use it the most or they WILL suffer for not doing so.

ablabahabla wrote: »

all dds use their geine for def 99% of the time except for seekers maybe since they are pretty tanky due to their buff. Wizards will spam windshield, aquaflame armor, fortify, ad and expel until they can go for the kill with spark.

Umm.... yea I SERIOUSLY doubt it's 99% of the time they're in mass pvp... sure if they're put into a position where they have to use their genie to survive, that number you threw out is probably a little more accurate... but yea not 99% of the time.

EDIT: I am not even sure how you picked that out, and misread what I said... I wasn't even remotely trying to insinuate that casters, archers, barbs, nor sins don't have to use genies or apo to survive.. I get it that sometimes they do have to use those, but I for one seriously question if it is ANYWHERE near as often of that of bm. (A bm pretty much HAS to use a genie, or apo, or stay near others if they want a real shot of getting near... even with the new leaps, reckless rush, reel in... even if they proc/the bm can use one of those skills... he STILL has to survive!... Which is NOT easy at all... especially considering how much damage they take from even just 1 person.)

ablabahabla wrote: »

Archers do the same pretty much and so do psys and eps and mystics! Even seekers do so cause of their lack of anti stun ability and they can even use fortify as a debuff...
so what skills do u use on your bm? holy path, mire, windshield, whirlwind, ad, faith?
mire and whirlwind are offensive used skills while the rest is def used skills, so cant complain about the effectivity of genies for bms, ist the same as for other classes, except for barbs maybe.

Which of those you listed... TRULY helps with the survivability on a bm? Sure there is the refelective aura you failed to mention, but even that isn't very feasible for getting an undergeared bm near others. So yea again... we are forced to fall back on apo, or any number of other not so... guaranteed chance of getting near others... YES there is leaps, reel in, reckless rush, and our ranged seal... but seriously none of those are really that successful in getting us near others AND (<-- K E Y W O R D) actually surviving... especially once we are near. Those all work FAR better in 1 on 1's where the bm isn't taking damage from every which way until the bms is grounded into dust, which most of the time (UNLESS they are in end game gear) isn't long at all.

ablabahabla wrote: »

I definitly have a idea of what it takes toplay a bm, but if it insults u that u always seem to Forget the roll of a bm, im sorry for that lol
Prolly better for u to stick to your seeker anyways since u sure are someone who prefers the dd style of gaming.

and if u think archers are op, try to Play with them, u will be the first to target by any sin and u will get 1shot all over, just as a side note

If you think that is what insulted me... your wrong.

I just don't like how your acting like I am off my rocker so to speak, and none of my complaints are legit. Not to mention you acting like bms are gods, and can survive 100% of the time even in crappy gear. EDIT: That may be a bit hypocritical of me, but meh... at least I am not acting like I need a boost when I already have an innate ability that far exceeds what the other class have to work with. (Marrows hp, the morai skills, etc that a bms has to work with are quite iffy at best... especially if the bm is NOT in epic gear.)

EDIT: Hell acting is one thing... actually coming out and saying something like: "finnally a non-fail bm speaking out" is absolutely insulting, and way out of line. <<


---

Again I get it if in even gear, and the fight remains 1 on 1 the bms does far better, and has a much better chance of actually living... not to mention if he was in a group, and can actually stay near them. (Which is difficult at best in NW)

---

EDIT: I know Aelicia isn't in the best gear... but her gear far exceeds mine, as well as plenty of other bms on the server, +10 full g16.... I am aware of that bm... well aware... I even know her husband/boyfriend... both were in dynasty last I checked/heard. (both are REALLY hard to kill even when alone) In case your wondering if I even know his name... it's Heamon, who is now on his barb Meleonheads or somthing real close to that)

EDIT 2: I happen to know a few bms who are in quite decent gear, but still complain about what bms have to work with/their lack of survivability in mass pvp... but yea that is only a few there is definitely a lot of bms out there still... (in other words I can NOT speak for everyone who isn't speaking up) but still I do rarely see a bm in NW, and even when I do, I am not scared of it... they get hurt way too hard, and way too easily.

EDIT 3: Yay for straying from the original topic. *runs in circles*

Viktorian - Archosaur

Toddloveleah - Harshlands wrote: »

and let me just add something to what i said

End Game BM Stats

Player difficulty - ☆☆☆☆☆
Survivability - ☆☆☆☆
Damage Output - ☆☆
Supportive Control Skills - ☆☆☆☆☆
Overall Mass PvP viability - ☆☆☆
Overall 1v1 Viability - ☆☆☆☆

im not rly truly into pvp (might change as i get better but atm i suck). but id change ur output dmg down to 1star. personally i think we do the lowest dmg. change the overall mass pvp one to 4 stars. wat we rly lack in dmg we make up for in stuns and dmg changers. we have the ability to make our attacks hit harder lower someones def and lower someones attack power. all those are aoes. while it doesnt give us an edge as the killing force it can give our team the win.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Viktorian - Archosaur wrote: »

im not rly truly into pvp (might change as i get better but atm i suck). but id change ur output dmg down to 1star. personally i think we do the lowest dmg. change the overall mass pvp one to 4 stars. wat we rly lack in dmg we make up for in stuns and dmg changers. we have the ability to make our attacks hit harder lower someones def and lower someones attack power. all those are aoes. while it doesnt give us an edge as the killing force it can give our team the win.

Personally I think 3 stars is fairly accurate... those things you listed are undoubtedly useful for the squad, but you have to stay alive/stay near your group for all that to be as effective as it should be. EDIT: Oh... haha that was talking about endgame... still I feel 3 stars is fairly accurate, especially when their innate ability to support is only effective when in a group/near others that can take advantage of that bm's stuns, etc.... not to mention assuming the bm can even survive long enough to get to others... which that is undoubtedly far easier when talking about end game gear, still they do have to close the gaps, and they may have to chase down multiple people who are attacking/possibly locking the bm down in one way or another... (yes they have an instant cast 15 second anti stun with a 60 second cooldown, but still there are skills that get through that quite easily) so yea I do feel 3 stars is quite accurate.

If your alone, and trying to stun for others, it isn't all that likely you'll survive long enough to even get a use out of it/let alone the squad you were trying to stun for... ergo yes it is better to stick in a group, or use apo/a genie while on a bm. (none of those are as feasible as they sound at least they aren't imho.)

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Slivaf. Post a pwcalc of what you usually run around in mass pvp.

Nowadays the bare minimum for any class to not get one shot is full g16 +7. Anything less than that and you will get facerolled all day when more than one person hits you = mass pvp.

I know gear isnt everything but you cannot speak about effectiveness in mass pvp without actually having what is standard gear.

I actually took my bm into NW last friday (first time PvP) as he needed the non account stashable r8 mats for his poleblade. He is in full g16 +7, very different playstyle in pvp as it was mostly running around with the DDs and stunlocking calling assists and occasionly getting a ganked kill. Better gear would have massively helped, the weapon didnt matter, every axe is capable of stunning, smacking, drake bashing, Hf'in, blade hurling etc. Better armour would have allowed me to stay alive longer under sustained fire. But most of the time I got facerolled I forgot to marrow demon bell/got ganked hard. It was annoying closing down ranged DDs but leaps are pretty awesome, and using mo zuns when immobilised to reposition to leap is handy. Also defensively BMs have so many control skills so a well timed roar whirlwind smack drake bash would let my charm cd/stop an ally getting whacked.

Anyways I was in flame we came second and I got 94 tokens. Not the usual 200ish I get on archer but still respectable for NW cherry poppin a non DD class with basic gear.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Slivaf. Post a pwcalc of what you usually run around in mass pvp.

I would gladly do that if pwcalc was actually working for me. QQ lol

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nowadays the bare minimum for any class to not get one shot is full g16 +7. Anything less than that and you will get facerolled all day when more than one person hits you = mass pvp.

I know gear isnt everything but you cannot speak about effectiveness in mass pvp without actually having what is standard gear.

Again I am not a one shot, I quite frankly do feel I do quite respectable on my bm in mass pvp... but still I do see what others have to work with, and it really seems like it favors every other class... (in one way or another) even if they decide to go solo.

EDIT: I absolutely disagree about that standard/even gear stuff your entitled to your opinion... but still as I have pointed out before on these forums I have seen what the EXACT same gear does for my barb, and I have seen what similar gear does for (was actually the same - rings/ornaments) my seeker, and every single class that I have played in mass pvp. (I am not saying they don't have things that could perhaps be changed to make each of them better, but still... the bm struggles the most by far.)

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I actually took my bm into NW last friday (first time PvP) as he needed the non account stashable r8 mats for his poleblade. He is in full g16 +7, very different playstyle in pvp as it was mostly running around with the DDs and stunlocking calling assists and occasionly getting a ganked kill. Better gear would have massively helped, the weapon didnt matter, every axe is capable of stunning, smacking, drake bashing, Hf'in, blade hurling etc. Better armour would have allowed me to stay alive longer under sustained fire. But most of the time I got facerolled I forgot to marrow demon bell/got ganked hard. It was annoying closing down ranged DDs but leaps are pretty awesome, and using mo zuns when immobilised to reposition to leap is handy. Also defensively BMs have so many control skills so a well timed roar whirlwind smack drake bash would let my charm cd/stop an ally getting whacked.

Anyways I was in flame we came second and I got 94 tokens. Not the usual 200ish I get on archer but still respectable for NW cherry poppin a non DD class with basic gear.

Aye when things are chaotic, and you can survive those skills ARE really useful, but if you can't you might as well not even be there on the bm.

Eoria - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would gladly do that if pwcalc was actually working for me. QQ lol

pwcalc is up atm. If you can't get it to work, just SS all of your gear and compile it in an image with your stats.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

pwcalc is up atm. If you can't get it to work, just SS all of your gear and compile it in an image with your stats.

Hmm that actually gives me another idea, ty for sparking it, Ill let you all know if it works... no guarantees... but yea if my idea doesn't work ill do what you suggested ty eoria. :$

TheDan - Sanctuary

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand all of that, I really do, and I appreciate all the replies.

Still my problem remains, it seems quite unfair that a bm has to go through all that to just be effective in mass pvp, and using the genie for survivability would mean you would need to use apo for the chi issues that would undoubtedly arise.

What other class actually has to go through all that to be even remotely effective on at least one side of the kill or survive aspect of what the ultimate goals of mass pvp should be? There isn't a single class other than bm's that has to prepare their genie for survival, and use apo to be quite effective in mass pvp. (barbs have their HAXED *** shields, sins have their deaden nerves, focus mind, tidal protection, and even stealth to get near others, whereas everyone else has range on their side. What do bm's have? Leaps... sure the new leaps/morai skills are nice, but we still have some serious survivability issues that isn't mention that the new side effects of the leaps, aren't even 100%, and even with reel in/reckless rush, we still struggle to survive especially once in the frey.)

Every time I tab over and see a bm on my server while I am on my seeker in nw, I immediately feel sorry for them, and think wewt an easy target, and it isn't so much as a lack of skill that has me thinking that way, its more what I hit them for every time I hit them. (1.5k-2.8kish with a r8 +5 sword) Some of these bms I know are in quite decent gear too... and yet here I am hitting them far harder than even most casters... (yes I am throwing my physical ranged attacks at the casters) that just leaves me sad for bm's. My point is they don't live long at all if they don't use apo or chi.

I'd completely agree with what you're saying if I was currently not R9 or R9R3, I was in your shoes 2-3 years ago. PRE-R9 BMs are extremely under-powered. If you watch my older PvP videos, there is a night and day difference between my pre-R9 and post-R9 game-play. I was a 1.0 KD ratio PRE-R9. Immediately after R9 I jumped up to a 1.7 KD ratio, doing nothing but normal PK at west gate and TW.

BMs just don't reach their full potential until after they are post-R9 due to the GOF and attack level axes, as well as major stat boosts in defenses with the R9. Prior to R9, the marrows would destroy me because I'd wear double magic orns, whereas with R9 you'll get the phys def boost from the armors as well as the belt. The marrows fix themselves once you get the R9 belt, it is absolutely amazing what the R9 belt does for marrows.

R9R3 is when casters start to catch back up to BMs again. Casters are the only class that didn't get a decent unique add until R9R3. That's when things get tricky, but things like an advanced purge spear and genie set ups can help change the tides pretty quick when it becomes a self buffed fight.

The main reason why I chose to R9 my BM over my Barb and any other class is because of the balancing long term stability in future PvE farming abilities. I could not farm on a Barb very well, and to be able to invest into one character and still remain PvE viable is a decision you have to make yourself. I didn't want to R9 my Barb and only play it for TW and PvP honestly. You'd have to waste too much time and effect gearing up 2 separate characters for PvE and then PvP. Most casters these days had to invest on a second character for farming, unless they charged it all or merched the whole way, which anyone could do as well.

Honestly, I would not base a BM's mid game PvP viability as a base for a final decision for your end game PvP viability, there's a big big difference. Seekers get thrashed in Mass PvP, they're so easy to gank because they don't have many control skills to fight it back. Watch my most recent PvP video, all R999, 2 BMs vs 2 Seekers on opposite sides. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnC8He52fFM Seekers are more of a tanky DD class than support, so they're 2 very different classes, but BMs make the difference in PvP outcomes.

I had made the same decision 2-3 years ago that you're inquiring about now, and don't regret it one bit even with all the nerfs and balance changes. I had cold feet at first, but in the end I did a lot of analyzing and research came to the same conclusion that I still support now.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd completely agree with what you're saying if I was currently not R9 or R9R3, I was in your shoes 2-3 years ago. PRE-R9 BMs are extremely under-powered. If you watch my older PvP videos, there is a night and day difference between my pre-R9 and post-R9 game-play. I was a 1.0 KD ratio PRE-R9. Immediately after R9 I jumped up to a 1.7 KD ratio, doing nothing but normal PK at west gate and TW.

BMs just don't reach their full potential until after they are post-R9 due to the GOF and attack level axes, as well as major stat boosts in defenses with the R9. Prior to R9, the marrows would destroy me because I'd wear double magic orns, whereas with R9 you'll get the phys def boost from the armors as well as the belt. The marrows fix themselves once you get the R9 belt, it is absolutely amazing what the R9 belt does for marrows.

R9R3 is when casters start to catch back up to BMs again. Casters are the only class that didn't get a decent unique add until R9R3. That's when things get tricky, but things like an advanced purge spear and genie set ups can help change the tides pretty quick when it becomes a self buffed fight.

The main reason why I chose to R9 my BM over my Barb and any other class is because of the balancing long term stability in future PvE farming abilities. I could not farm on a Barb very well, and to be able to invest into one character and still remain PvE viable is a decision you have to make yourself. I didn't want to R9 my Barb and only play it for TW and PvP honestly. You'd have to waste too much time and effect gearing up 2 separate characters for PvE and then PvP. Most casters these days had to invest on a second character for farming, unless they charged it all or merched the whole way, which anyone could do as well.

Honestly, I would not base a BM's mid game PvP viability as a base for a final decision for your end game PvP viability, there's a big big difference. Seekers get thrashed in Mass PvP, they're so easy to gank because they don't have many control skills to fight it back. Watch my most recent PvP video, all R999, 2 BMs vs 2 Seekers on opposite sides. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnC8He52fFM Seekers are more of a tanky DD class than support, so they're 2 very different classes, but BMs make the difference in PvP outcomes.

I had made the same decision 2-3 years ago that you're inquiring about now, and don't regret it one bit even with all the nerfs and balance changes. I had cold feet at first, but in the end I did a lot of analyzing and research came to the same conclusion that I still support now.

Wow if someone had said those words to me before I started getting r9 on my seeker... I so would have been gearing up the bm still instead of the switch over to the seeker, although the seeker does fine in both, pve, and pvp at least imho it does. (Sure it is lacking in some areas of mass pvp, but overall I don't mind the seeker's flaws.)

I can not thank you enough for that valuable insight Dan, unassuming, no accusing, not even trying to blatantly throw out everything I have been saying like I am completely off of my rocker. (This is why just trying to force down 'points' like 'they get better in end game doesn't work...) its hard to accept just that "fact..." especially when the opposition (me in this case) has "facts" of their own.

Though I must say I still have my reservations/doubts about it, still thanks for the clarity on the matter TheDan.

---

For the record I didn't expect to be phenomenal on this bm in mass pvp, the first few times I played with it in those places, but as time grew on... things really started to add up to make me absolutely loathe the class in mass pvp. EVEN if it gets similar tokens/personal credits to other classes. (Assuming they are in comparable gear)

EDIT: Also I should have a link to pwcalc up shortly I think I figured out the problem, and it wont take me long to fix it. (router issues ftl!)

Viktorian - Archosaur

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Personally I think 3 stars is fairly accurate... those things you listed are undoubtedly useful for the squad, but you have to stay alive/stay near your group for all that to be as effective as it should be. EDIT: Oh... haha that was talking about endgame... still I feel 3 stars is fairly accurate, especially when their innate ability to support is only effective when in a group/near others that can take advantage of that bm's stuns, etc.... not to mention assuming the bm can even survive long enough to get to others... which that is undoubtedly far easier when talking about end game gear, still they do have to close the gaps, and they may have to chase down multiple people who are attacking/possibly locking the bm down in one way or another... (yes they have an instant cast 15 second anti stun with a 60 second cooldown, but still there are skills that get through that quite easily) so yea I do feel 3 stars is quite accurate.

If your alone, and trying to stun for others, it isn't all that likely you'll survive long enough to even get a use out of it/let alone the squad you were trying to stun for... ergo yes it is better to stick in a group, or use apo/a genie while on a bm. (none of those are as feasible as they sound at least they aren't imho.)

technically our anti stun skill only has a 45 second cooldown. the skill is in cd while active.
as to the archer darkskies. +5 depending on the gear ur using. if ur in the aps gear well i pray for u it prob has to be +7 but the g16s witha cube neck and warsong belt only have to be +5 to not get oneshot (by everything but psychics prob).

Eoria - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

EDIT: Also I should have a link to pwcalc up shortly I think I figured out the problem, and it wont take me long to fix it. (router issues ftl!)

How long does it take to make a pwcalc?

ablabahabla

And just for all the QQ about only haveing g16 nv, since it doesn't seem u have realized by now that the question of the thread is if it is worth to get r9rr, read the topic again if u wanna quote me and talk about not being able to afford r9 or r9rr ....

kthxbaib:bye

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

How long does it take to make a pwcalc?

Your right it doesnt take that long when it is ACTUALLY working, I have been researching the problem on the internet, and trying the various fixes to try and get that website working, hell I found a work around the first day, but I really didn't like what I had to do to get there, so I was avoiding using the calculator, hoping I would find a better fix for it that I actually.... trusted. I had other reasons for avoiding this thread, still I did promise you all a *taps fingers... whats the word I am looking for* guide for you all to further judge me with. (Most of the posts I have recieved have been down right negative and highly unconstructive... ergo I have been absolutely reluctant to post my gear for fear of just adding ammo to your all's already very strong quiver so to speak. (AGAIN ILL SAY THIS BEFORE MOVING ON I DO QUITE ALRIGHT ON MY BM IN NW, WELL ENOUGH IN FACT TO GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF TOKENS AS MY OTHER CHARS IN SIMILAR GEAR) still I did say I would post it so here goes. (using the work around that I REALLY didn't want to use)

Anyways please note this hp, etc is slightly off thanks to the meridian gates.

http://pwcalc.com/e0245e95ee525a8f


I get it thats not the best gear, and it definitely needs to be worked on so I can be more effective in mass pvp... but still I feel the need to STRESS this... I DO NOT DO THAT BADLY ON MY BM IN MASS PVP... however I HAVE seen, and in some cases first hand what other classes have to work with for mass pvp compared to my bm... ergo the question. (If you read the whole question... I questioned is it worth getting r93r on a bm over the other classes) <<

ablabahabla wrote: »

And just for all the QQ about only haveing g16 nv, since it doesn't seem u have realized by now that the question of the thread is if it is worth to get r9rr, read the topic again if u wanna quote me and talk about not being able to afford r9 or r9rr ....

kthxbaib:bye

If you think I am qqing because of my gear your sorely mistaken it is the bm's skills that has me upset... but really what TheDan said... makes a so much sense that it has gotten me to back off and ignore this thread for the most part. At least until well nvm... I am not going there I don't want you all to know what set me off.. might give fuel for future trolls to troll me with... I don't like being trolled. b:cry

Eoria - Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://pwcalc.com/e0245e95ee525a8f

You're running around in like not even the bare minimum and wondering why the **** you're dying so much. Like...

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

You're running around in like not even the bare minimum and wondering why the **** you're dying so much. Like...

Exactly why I was so reluctant to even post it...

What part about I do NOT DO THAT ****ING BADLY on it don't you understand... why can't you get that through your thick skull. <<

I know why I am dying... and AGAIN b:angry f:fume... its not me, nor is it all my gear's fault... because as I said in the EXACT SAME DAMN GEAR on my barb, I do more than fine... what part about that do you NOT understand. <<

So yes I do feel its more to do with the class than me, especially when it is by far the class I am the most comfortable with in pve, hell I was even confident on it going into the first nw/tw... at least until I was told I was going to be fodder in TW... then the more I played nw, as well as played nw in the EXACT SAME gear on my barb, and seeker... I can see just how much worse off bms have it. <<

Ffs... I gave you what you wanted, don't insult me, by saying something like 'no wonder why your dying' especially when I have said NUMEROUS ****ING TIMES that I ****ING KNOW that in BETTER GEAR I SURVIVE BETTER!

Seriously back off of my gear, and quit acting like I don't know my *** from the hole in the ground.

Eoria - Harshlands

It's completely your gear though. You have no def levels. You have mediocre HP for a BM nowadays. Your barb only does well probably due to all of the survival skills that barbs have (y'know, because they're the tank class).

Go finish your g16 Nirvana set and get a def level r8r axe. I guarantee you'll survive a lot better than you do now.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

It's completely your gear though. You have no def levels. You have mediocre HP for a BM nowadays. Your barb only does well probably due to all of the survival skills that barbs have (y'know, because they're the tank class).

Go finish your g16 Nirvana set and get a def level r8r axe. I guarantee you'll survive a lot better than you do now.

First off I have no doubt your guarantee will come through.

EDIT: Tbh after this post if I can I do plan on going back and r93r the bm fully. Though I do still have my doubts, on how much I am going to like it... especially if while in the same gear I do significantly better on my barb, and even seeker. (albeit the seeker is rangedish)

Secondly my hp is actually among the best that I have seen, (on my server) but aye it is rather mediocre for a bm/the gear others have.

Last but not least, aye barbs are the tank class, and they do indeed do just that, still I do feel quite.... annoyed that every other class (even sins) seem to have it so much easier thanks to their built in skills. EDIT: (though yes bms have some real nice skills, and can do rather decentlyish if things are in their favor a little bit... or they're in a squad, and stay near that squad, or prepare like no other class, and use both apo, and genies for even the slightest hint of actually surviving for more than a few hits.... at least not while in the gear I have... let alone unrefined full g16 gear.)

Also one more thing, sorry for going off on you like that... I must be going through that male equivalent of a period. /o\ (for the record no I am not bleeding down there)

EDIT: Here's something I would like for you all to think about. (it's an analogy and it may be weirdish... but bare with me)

There is 10 people at a table, and they all need to put in 10 million dollars, or 1 million each, and you are one of them, and are only able to scrounge together 500k of that 1m, leaving others to pick up the slack, and cover what you couldn't. Sure some think its no big deal, however others will not. (this goes for both the person who was only able to bring 500k, as well as the others who had to cover it) It is NOT fun being the one to only bring that 500k table, you are not only left feeling like you should have contibuted more, but also like you could have.... but alas were only able to do the 500k... which I for one find it quite unfair to the others to have to cover that other 500k.

^ Those numbers are just an example, I am not saying bms have half the power of anyone else.... but it sure feels like we are using others while being of little to no use to others. Which is NOT fun imho.

ablabahabla

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://pwcalc.com/e0245e95ee525a8f

if u can do decent with those gears there must be pretty bad geared people on Dreamweaver i dont know a single person on lost city that wouldn't 1-2shot u with those gears, maybe the lvl90 chars or lower coudnt but there are like non that dont have a r999 toon they could log.

ofc a barb can do better cause he has turtle skill and genie skills reduceing dmg taken by 70% or more lol still barbs with those gears would get 1shot too by normal geared players on lc...

Anyways the Thread clearly shows that it is adviseable to get r999 on a bm IF u enjoy being a support class and not a DD like a Seeker or a tank like a barb!

As for u feeling insulted by everything people say, all i can say is "what goes around, comes back around" or maybe u are more likely to get it if i say "as the question, so the answer"

almost everyone in the thread was applying to the title and told u that getting r999 is adviseable, but at which u instantly started to talk about that it aint true cause u get killed too fast on your bm and started the talk about bms being underpowered. The only way to figure out if a class is underpowered is to choose some decent gears and compare it with any other class on the same lvl of gears! There just is no other way to make a fair comparison of classes if u dont choose them to have the same gears and those geares must be on a lvl where u can be useful, if u'd compare classes in hh90 ... i'd say hf doing stuff like sot in those gears.
As said in all the posts above, ofc ranged classes have an easier time to be usefull when they are squishy, but they still aint usefull since they mostly are single targeting and cant cc, except for a psy maybe. + they defniitly will get 1shot by any decent geared player.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

ablabahabla wrote: »

if u can do decent with those gears there must be pretty bad geared people on Dreamweaver i dont know a single person on lost city that wouldn't 1-2shot u with those gears, maybe the lvl90 chars or lower coudnt but there are like non that dont have a r999 toon they could log.

ofc a barb can do better cause he has turtle skill and genie skills reduceing dmg taken by 70% or more lol still barbs with those gears would get 1shot too by normal geared players on lc...

Anyways the Thread clearly shows that it is adviseable to get r999 on a bm IF u enjoy being a support class and not a DD like a Seeker or a tank like a barb!

As for u feeling insulted by everything people say, all i can say is "what goes around, comes back around" or maybe u are more likely to get it if i say "as the question, so the answer"

almost everyone in the thread was applying to the title and told u that getting r999 is adviseable, but at which u instantly started to talk about that it aint true cause u get killed too fast on your bm and started the talk about bms being underpowered. The only way to figure out if a class is underpowered is to choose some decent gears and compare it with any other class on the same lvl of gears! There just is no other way to make a fair comparison of classes if u dont choose them to have the same gears and those geares must be on a lvl where u can be useful, if u'd compare classes in hh90 ... i'd say hf doing stuff like sot in those gears.
As said in all the posts above, ofc ranged classes have an easier time to be usefull when they are squishy, but they still aint usefull since they mostly are single targeting and cant cc, except for a psy maybe. + they defniitly will get 1shot by any decent geared player.

oK first off read the whole first post before commenting/voting, as my question is much more than just whats in the title, if you had read my first post you would have seen this. (hell it is even teh question of the poll)

Secondly there is a difference between being rude, or criticizing and offering contsructive criticism. (I feel that the only two people I have snapped at is you and eoria, s/he was criticizing at first, then s/he actually added a bit more after I raged at he/r.... my post to her was undoubtedly the worse by far in this thread) Hell there are even quite a few posts I didn't reply to, and they disagreed with me as well... so maybe the problem isn't me, but how you all reply to me? IJS ... (edit) am so guessing eoria is a she.... but yea figured I wouldnt make that assumption. :$ *hides*)

Either way I know I am flawed, I make mistakes, I am not perfect, I do snap from time to time, I am human... I get angry, sad, happy, etc just like anyone else. I even get apologetic when I realize or I know I was wrong without others pointing it out to me. (especially like if I snapped at someone even if they were so arguably rude with their comments/replies to my own... hell last night I was already annoyed about something else before coming to reply on this thread) :$

EDIT: Let me put it this way if you were complaining about something how would you like it if sarted criticizing you or your gear if you were complianing about something? I am sure you wouldnt take too kindly to it at all. IJS. Again there is such a thing as contstructive criticism... what you all did was just plain criticized... so of course I am going to get defensive, and ignore your... better points. (you would do the same no doubt)

EDIT: Yea in other words I absolutely feel I wasnt anywhere near as rude to you all in my comments (for the most part) as you two are.. err were being.... the problem might be part mine, but you all arent as innocent as you made it sound like. As I said there is a difference between between being rude or unconstructive... and actually givign constructive feedback, or even just simply disagreeing with me... I absolutely feel I was being quite respectful to those who were respectful to me.

EDIT: Also on your point 'what goes around comes around'... I didnt start to comment in a thread that wasn't about bms until someone else tried to bring up points that made it seem as if though bms were gods in mass pvp... really if that was the case more people would be a lot more wary of them than they are today, not to mention a lot more people would still be on them. (I also wouldnt feel sorry for over 90% of them everytime I hit them with a r8 un recasted +5 blade on my seeker.)

Edit: Almost every single class has some sort of 'crowd' control skill, slows can be real effective in slowing down melees, as is immoblization/sleeps etc. There is a big difference between the cc of a ranged/caster and the cc's of a melee... and that is the range difference, which is actually quite a useful thing, and makes it really hard to counter all the time. It is a LOT harder to stop a 'cc' when you dont know where the hell it's coming from, let alone when.

EDIT: (Yes again) Think about it if I am in the exact same gear right now with both my barb and bm... it shouldn't be hard to think, and know that some of the advantages that are clear to me, will remain even if both are in r93r... sure some of my annoyances will go away, but some would absolutely stay. <<

My opinion on bms being... easily among the weakest to try and mass pvp with. (Yes it is part to do with my gear, but still when I use the same gear on another class... even if it is meant to tank, and then if I look at any other class and can see what all they have to offer... after looking at what their skills do... of course I am going to come up with the conclusion I have.)

I really do believe quite a few bms share this sentiment, though obviously as is the case with everything 'controversial' their are people who... share my interest in a subject but does NOT agree with my belief in that subject which is absolutely fine... it happens REGARDLESS of what the subject is, be it in game or life... if people do not agree with the points you bring up, they will let you know if they have enough motivation to do so.

EDIT: (Oh boy another one.) <<

I have actually tried to avoid using the term 'underpowered' when talking about the bms lack of anything all that appealing... it's others like you who keep bringing that word up... though yes I have brought it up from time to time. (ERGO the word 'avoid using')

I have also said numerous times, that I know bms get far better in end game gear, (aka r93r) I am fairly sure I even mentioned that in my original post.

Also what part about I have taken the EXACT SAME gear I have on my bm to my barb, and seeker, (well more or less) and each have DONE far and away... WAY better than the bm... even if they each get roughly the same amount of tokens.) <--- I even pointed that out in that post where the gear is linked to. Seriously? xD

I am seriously starting to suspect that your just being a tool/troll.

EDIT: Also on your point about being a support... I would be fine with that if I felt like I could actually do that. I am pretty sure I pointed out that before somewhere in this thread. <<

me wrote:

Sjuggs - Lost City

So yeah after reading all, go R9RR but only if you can +10 or even +12 it and if you want to have a challenge, BMs arent as easy as other classes. And I also know how hard it sucks to have worse gear than that... I can't tell if R9RR is that good for BM since im still on NVg16/r8r +7 and I get 1-2 shot the whole time at NW , either by magic or physical attacks... and dealing 200-300s on geared people
So I would like to think it gets quite better with R9RR on a BM.

Also, I wonder why there are tons of seekers and tideborns around but so few BMs ): makes me sad

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Sjuggs - Lost City wrote: »

So yeah after reading all, go R9RR but only if you can +10 or even +12 it and if you want to have a challenge, BMs arent as easy as other classes. And I also know how hard it sucks to have worse gear than that... I can't tell if R9RR is that good for BM since im still on NVg16/r8r +7 and I get 1-2 shot the whole time at NW , either by magic or physical attacks... and dealing 200-300s on geared people
So I would like to think it gets quite better with R9RR on a BM.

Also, I wonder why there are tons of seekers and tideborns around but so few BMs ): makes me sad

I agree with every bit of it... it is really saddening seeing so few bms in nw/mass pvp... even more sad when you add in the fact that they do in fact get hammered a lot, and there is only a very small hand few of bms who can actually stand up to others a little bit. (I am not saying bms can't stand up to others, but it IS extremely difficult especially (edit: actually only) when not in end game gear, or if they can manage to get into 1 on 1 and OFTEN.)

ablabahabla

before i quote all of your edits ill just make a short respond

i just got r9 on my bm and it aint refined hes useing some +4 hh99 neck and a +5 cv ring some lunar cape and woe helmet and i was tanking some r9rr full +10 barb over 5 mins, withut being charmed. Then he called a r9rr dag int sin with full +10 set to kill me with him. I got a nv3+5 seeker as assistance and we rolled them both, btw the seeker was uncharmed too and we rolled them cause i was ccing the **** out of them. Ofc if those 2 would have been pro they should have easily killed us bu being charmed and haeing such an gear advantage shoud easily make them faceroll some 10k pdef 4k mdef bm and a nv3+5 seeker, but they couldn't, because bms just can keep them cced while being able to kill them fast with a dd at their side. in case there would have been some seeker or mage we would have died fast due to not being charmed and not haveing def charms etc.

I also guess nv3 bms can easily have better stats then normal r9 bms, while their dmg will be lower cause they lack zerk. But this definitly shows that bms aint as useless as u think they are, bms always can turn th tide in mass pvp even if their gears kinda suck.

I also wouldnt rage about someone telling me that my gears are bad if they rly are lol.
I think your problem is that u kinda always start torage after a short period of thinking about the sentences other people write and it gets more and more every time u think about them. You should keep calm if u want others to help u.

Aasaf - Sanctuary

I'll just add a tiny bit here. Even with 17k hp and about 16k mdef, it only takes 1~2 seconds for my bm to die at times when all the heavy hitters are around me. You get 8~15 tabbing and killing. My bm walks in, everyone tab kills me. Even if they do 3k damage, 24k~45k damage is put on my knees. Naturally my knees bend and when you bend in tw, well people take the opportunity b:chuckle.

I could survive better if i used genies, skills, apoc, charm, hp pots, but i am stingy b:shocked.

The difference if i use the above in nw, i did a few times, when i don't use the above i die every 2~4 minutes in nw.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

ablabahabla wrote: »

before i quote all of your edits ill just make a short respond

i just got r9 on my bm and it aint refined hes useing some +4 hh99 neck and a +5 cv ring some lunar cape and woe helmet and i was tanking some r9rr full +10 barb over 5 mins, withut being charmed. Then he called a r9rr dag int sin with full +10 set to kill me with him. I got a nv3+5 seeker as assistance and we rolled them both, btw the seeker was uncharmed too and we rolled them cause i was ccing the **** out of them. Ofc if those 2 would have been pro they should have easily killed us bu being charmed and haeing such an gear advantage shoud easily make them faceroll some 10k pdef 4k mdef bm and a nv3+5 seeker, but they couldn't, because bms just can keep them cced while being able to kill them fast with a dd at their side. in case there would have been some seeker or mage we would have died fast due to not being charmed and not haveing def charms etc.

I also guess nv3 bms can easily have better stats then normal r9 bms, while their dmg will be lower cause they lack zerk. But this definitly shows that bms aint as useless as u think they are, bms always can turn th tide in mass pvp even if their gears kinda suck.

I also wouldnt rage about someone telling me that my gears are bad if they rly are lol.
I think your problem is that u kinda always start torage after a short period of thinking about the sentences other people write and it gets more and more every time u think about them. You should keep calm if u want others to help u.

Ok, first off... I don't rage at everyone I reply too, and most of my posts are actually quite, calm, hell I am even calm right... there is a big difference between being annoyed, and angry. Also while on the point about 'calmness'... I did get help from someone and they weren't a total *** about their reply, and nor were mine in reply to his.... so yea... again maybe its not just me but also the context the sentence is used/person who is replying to me. (both play a role in this whether you like to admit it or not.)

Secondly, 'can turn tide fo the battle even in their gears kinda suck' .. yea can is the keyword there... but most (<-- my keyword) of the time they are absolute fodder for everyone else, dont try to convince me other wise.

Thirdly... I can take it if someone tells me my gear sucks if they are either joking about it, or add something really constructive along with it... eoria did neither... so yea the context of her post of course it set me off... it could happen to ANYONE.

Lastly as I have pointed out before I realize a bms cc skills are quite badass but they HAVE to survive to be able to even use them... I find it hard to believe you only had 10k phys def/4k mag def with full r9 gear on.... but maybe you did I don't know... still if either of your opponents had been a caster they would have had a far easier time killing you.... then you would of had to close the gaps, and survive while doing so to get to the caster... and if what you said is true... that would have been no easy task even with leaps/reckless rush/reel in.

Aasaf - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll just add a tiny bit here. Even with 17k hp and about 16k mdef, it only takes 1~2 seconds for my bm to die at times when all the heavy hitters are around me. You get 8~15 tabbing and killing. My bm walks in, everyone tab kills me. Even if they do 3k damage, 24k~45k damage is put on my knees. Naturally my knees bend and when you bend in tw, well people take the opportunity b:chuckle.

I could survive better if i used genies, skills, apoc, charm, hp pots, but i am stingy b:shocked.

The difference if i use the above in nw, i did a few times, when i don't use the above i die every 2~4 minutes in nw.

Aye, bms do indeed survive better with all that, but yea... what I have been questioning is why is it fair that a bm has to do that, when no other class has to do it as often (<-- KEYWORD) to survive all the time in mass pvp. (yes bm's are a support, but I still find it ridicolously difficult to be a support, when others are hammering the snot out of you with a significant amount of ease.... it is so not easy taking damage from 1 person, let alone 2 or more.)

rose1111111

simple, spend $5,000 and get JOSD bro...AHAHAHAH

Leonidis - Harshlands

Then, just get full +12 and youre set.