More skill updates for Venos! Discuss

DeffyNature - Archosaur

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's some news:


Based on Asterelle's post there is a chance the new "updated" skills might just be new skillbooks you can acquire to learn.

If that's the case it should make the Demons happy because it would mean they can keep current Ironwood and for the HA/LAs or whoever else they can keep their AOE Befuddling.

It's just a speculation. I also wonder if the fused-befuddling might just be an entirely new skill that leaves actual Befuddling Mist and Fox Wallop untouched unless learning a new book auto-fuses these two new skills.

Skill trees seem to be untouched.

Still, for instance,let's take the barb hp buff. You'd work your *** off to open the maps or whatnot (from the speculations thus far), then rebirth and such, to get an hp buff that is identical to one you already have, but with a giant c/d? It doesn't add up to me.

Marengo - Lost City

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon is still more powerful,...Im still a bit ragy about sage being shafted here, and fox form even more so. But gonna stop ranting bout it at least for now 3:

Sage venos got awesome fox form and ability to spam chi consuming skills. Wish i could spam nova or bramble hood... Demon relies on random features more. Maybe there was some disbalance before implementing new foxforms, but sage got their compensation entirely.

Vedovis - Lost City

Marengo - Lost City wrote: »

Sage venos got awesome fox form and ability to spam chi consuming skills. Wish i could spam nova or bramble hood... Demon relies on random features more. Maybe there was some disbalance before implementing new foxforms, but sage got their compensation entirely.

Agreed. I'm not sure where Sage is getting 'shafted'; the upgraded foxform definitely favours sage. New skills sort of balance out the chi-spamming ability of sage although not as well imo as sage fox.

Desdi - Sanctuary

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

Still, for instance,let's take the barb hp buff. You'd work your *** off to open the maps or whatnot (from the speculations thus far), then rebirth and such, to get an hp buff that is identical to one you already have, but with a giant c/d? It doesn't add up to me.

It's all too confusing at this point to consider anything.
I've been following the other thread and there are a lot of stuff being mentioned there but nothing definitely confirmed.

Some skills might just be updated regardless (if lvl10 Parasitic Nova gets damage nerf and proc rate increased...I doubt there's a book for that lol) while others might be new skills books.

Either way, there are skill books that you can make with materials (possibly things you farm in the new instance(s)) so we're are getting something that can be learnt.

It's all too vague at the moment though..same as the whole Reincarnation system and how it works.

DeffyNature - Archosaur

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's all too confusing at this point to consider anything.
I've been following the other thread and there are a lot of stuff being mentioned there but nothing definitely confirmed.

Some skills might just be updated regardless (if lvl10 Parasitic Nova gets damage nerf and proc rate increased...I doubt there's a book for that lol) while others might be new skills books.

Either way, there are skill books that you can make with materials (possibly things you farm in the new instance(s)) so we're are getting something that can be learnt.

It's all too vague at the moment though..same as the whole Reincarnation system and how it works.

Yes, that is exactly what I think, there will both be changed skills and new skillbooks that one can make.
I was hoping we'd have more reliable info by now, but it seems we still need a wait to be sure.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

@Marengo and Vedovis: Demons have in general been that way since.. ever. You give up a high chi gain for betterr debuffs as a caster, tho ironwood being a bit of a chance skill. Demonvenomous opens up for more damage dealt from all your caster skills, Nova got a low level HF. Demon stunning blow actually stuns, and demon fox wallop can give 95% crut rate for a short while. Nova, wallop and stunning have a chance to save chi for sages. And thats all. And with that said, demons arent eentirely unable to achieve chi as is, with demon lending hand and crush vigor.

You are however missing the point: ironwood, regardless of what people feel now, would be alot more powerful than sages. +for demons

Malefuc crush will have its bonus for sages more or less taken away (just to admit that most venos that woukd actually use this skill will have high refines) while demon keeps theirs, and pretty much get the sage one too. + for demons

Sage fox form offers more defense and accuracy than demon. With skills no longer being able to miss; the accuracy bonus is now useless. + for demons

Fox wallop of sages has a chance to save chi, demons have a chance of getting all crits for 5 seconds. After fuse the sages gets a slightly stronger version of a useless debuff, demons gain 20 chi. +for demons.

DeffyNature - Archosaur

Reading Astrelle's latest reply in the other thread, it seems the ironwood upgrade is anoptional new skill, so demon venos, rejoice lol.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Speaking strictly for PvP, I don't think anyone will bother using Malefic Crush. I don't know if HA/LA Venomancers use it but personally and a lot of other Venomancers I know never bothered with it in PvP.
In fact, I don't use it in PvE either when I can just spam Befuddling Mist instead. Considering that, it doesn't really matter which cultivation gets the better deal of it.
Granted, it's going to cost only one spark but...MP charms..meh. I don't see a use for it.

Fox Wallop is also something you won't see Demon Venomancers using in PvP. I like the crit proc just for goofing around in PvE but that's it. Plus, we're gonna lose it anyway so doesn't even matter.

As far as the accuracy thing goes, it looks more like an advantage of AAs over HA/LAs than advantage of Demon over Sage. Sage AA don't have exceptional accuracy either regardless of their fox form. Compare Sage HA with Sage AA. That 400-ish accuracy ain't gonna hit anyone.
Only time a Sage AA will have decent accuracy is when it's something like this; 60 dex, +100% accuracy from rings. My game husband has that build, minus the shards and +12 refines, but he doesn't use his fox form attacks.

It does, however, make the accuracy boost from any fox form rather useless so this update should have included something different to fox forms to replace accuracy.

This is why I said, to me, this update caters to AAs again.

sellers

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

Reading Astrelle's latest reply in the other thread, it seems the ironwood upgrade is anoptional new skill, so demon venos, rejoice lol.

Yeah I was reading the post in the general discussion, and it all points that you will have to use a book to upgrade the skills. So in fact, we can choose what we want to "upgrade". This is going to be really good news for the barbs, cause they can completely stay away from that stupid "update" to their hp buff. And of course, those of us who are demon can choose if we want to get the new ironwood too.

And talking about ironwood: yday I was qqing to my friend about this issue with ironwood. I was convinced when he compared for me how much spark (genie skill) with max dexterity possible debuffs your fire resistance. It happens to be 160%, and that 160% is enough for a wizard to one shot fully buffed people.

If we take in account that ironwood is actually going to hit a bit harder, that it will have the effect of 6 blazing scarabs dots in one (it says 600% of weapon damage in fire damage overtime, blazing scarab is 100%), and that a 40% reduction to p defense is guaranteed, then it's not that bad. Those who are fully magic should still be able to kill ppl with antinomy. Besides, our fox form skills will now never miss, and will have better proks, that are totally worth using.

I still will think if I really want to change ironwood, but I'm leaning towards doing it now.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is why I said, to me, this update caters to AAs again.

And it will be always be like that from now on. The only thing that heavy and LA builds had over arcane was that their fox form skill were actually viable. Now that doesn't matter cause all of them will hit always.

Desdi - Sanctuary

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

Reading Astrelle's latest reply in the other thread, it seems the ironwood upgrade is anoptional new skill, so demon venos, rejoice lol.

Just read it and that's true.
Well, this puts things into a whole new perspective. I won't bother upgrading Malefic Crush. I'll probably upgrade the others. Ironwood...I'll have to think about it.

Link.

DeffyNature - Archosaur

sellers wrote: »

Yeah I was reading the post in the general discussion, and it all points that you will have to use a book to upgrade the skills. So in fact, we can choose what we want to "upgrade". This is going to be really good news for the barbs, cause they can completely stay away from that stupid "update" to their hp buff. And of course, those of us who are demon can choose if we want to get the new ironwood too.

There are some changes that will be made, regardless of those new skills. In the list Astrelle provided, the hp buff for barbs and nova change for venos weren't included, which makes me think those will be made, regardless.
It makes sense, I was just talking to d
Desdi a few posts ago, that the nerfs to some skills cannot be called new skills, so it makes sense to have new skills and changes made to old ones.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Just a reminder, the Parasitic Nova update appears to be just for lvl10.

sellers

DeffyNature - Archosaur wrote: »

There are some changes that will be made, regardless of those new skills. In the list Astrelle provided, the hp buff for barbs and nova change for venos weren't included, which makes me think those will be made, regardless.
It makes sense, I was just talking to d
Desdi a few posts ago, that the nerfs to some skills cannot be called new skills, so it makes sense to have new skills and changes made to old ones.

The last list asterelle gave is incomplete, a lot of skills are missing. I guess he only did a list of skills that were described wrong, and he corrected them, or maybe they readjusted some skills yday (they are in beta after all).

And, I'm pretty sure the change is for parasitic nova is for level 10. Somewhere bubbles did say that among the changes was an improvement to many level 10 skills, and reduction of its price in coins to learn.

Right now level 10 nova works 2/3 times. It will be 95% like level 11, and I think it will hit a bit harder too. That's all good.

Eoria - Harshlands

sellers wrote: »

Right now level 10 nova works 2/3 times. It will be 95% like level 11, and I think it will hit a bit harder too. That's all good.

It's a damage nerf if it's actually coming. I think the general consensus seems to be that all the skills listed under "other" in Aster's original skill info dump aren't actually going through.

Current nova:

Channel　3.0　seconds
Cast　1.2　seconds
Cooldown　30.0　seconds
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation　Transcendent
Summon a toxic parasite array to attack the target and all
enemies in a 12.0 meter radius around the target. Inflicts
Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon
damage plus 4564.9. Has a 67% chance to make them chaotic for
8.0 seconds, in which they are unable to move or attack.

Requires two Sparks

Potential nova:

Channel　3.0　seconds
Cast　1.2　seconds
Cooldown　30.0　seconds
Weapon　Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation　Transcendent
Summon a toxic parasite array to attack the target and all
enemies in a 12.0 meter radius around the target. Inflicts
Wood damage equal to base magic damage plus 200% of weapon
damage. Has a 95% chance to make them chaotic for
8.0 seconds, in which they are unable to move or attack.

Marengo - Lost City

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Marengo and Vedovis: Demons have in general been that way since.. ever. .....and demon fox wallop can give 95% crut rate for a short while.
...
Fox wallop of sages has a chance to save chi, demons have a chance of getting all crits for 5 seconds. After fuse the sages gets a slightly stronger version of a useless debuff, demons gain 20 chi. +for demons.

We have discussed it here and demon venos came to the conclusion that it's useless I tested it and fairly tried to find a use for it and failed. Even in pve. It only looks interesting.

And with that said, demons arent eentirely unable to achieve chi as is, with demon lending hand and crush vigor.

Lending hand should be excluded from this list since sage have it too and with higher %.

You are however missing the point: ironwood, regardless of what people feel now, would be alot more powerful than sages. +for demons

Since it's going to be merged with blazing scarab, maybe. I didn't take into consideration damage addition when we talked about it in the very beginning of the topic. This makes the choice even harder. DD better or have good debuff, not op, but really good.

Malefuc crush will have its bonus for sages more or less taken away (just to admit that most venos that woukd actually use this skill will have high refines) while demon keeps theirs, and pretty much get the sage one too. + for demons

They updated the least usable skills, just saying... Nobody is going to spam malefic cush in pvp, except 2-3 venos on all servers and just for fun. Damage increasing is not that big. I've checked skills once again. It is how malefic crush looks now:
A malefic strike to enemies within 8 meters around you.
Inflicts base physical damage plus 5228.3...
And after update:
Inflicts base physical damage plus 9303
It's definitely not what i'd call "+ for demon, sage or whoever". Was useless and will remain useless. b:tired

Sage fox form offers more defense and accuracy than demon. With skills no longer being able to miss; the accuracy bonus is now useless. + for demons

I see you are HA, but how many other HA are there on your server? How many pvp? not just purge and run (no accuracy needed), but also kill, dd, take part in mass pk and 1v1? On my server i can't remember any serious HA veno unless it's acc stash alt. Though i don't remember names of such alts too. They were HA before, now rerolled to AA. First we are pushed towards rank gear and AA builds if we want to compete with endgame and not to die to a side glance at least and after that - here you go! foxform dd skills update b:victory How? Why? What for?

Not defence, not controls, not attack on really usable skills, but... foxform skills. few thousands of extra damage for skills which venos even rarely keep on hotkey panels *facepalm*

sellers wrote: »

And talking about ironwood: yday I was qqing to my friend about this issue with ironwood. I was convinced when he compared for me how much spark (genie skill) with max dexterity possible debuffs your fire resistance. It happens to be 160%, and that 160% is enough for a wizard to one shot fully buffed people.

If we take in account that ironwood is actually going to hit a bit harder, that it will have the effect of 6 blazing scarabs dots in one (it says 600% of weapon damage in fire damage overtime, blazing scarab is 100%), and that a 40% reduction to p defense is guaranteed, then it's not that bad.

It's not bad, but if we compare, wiz has several fire damage skills, if he failed with 1, he can attack with another at once. Spark proceeds every time he uses it. Spark does require some genie energy but doesn't require chi. It's somehow spammable. IW isn't. If we fail to kill with arcane antinomy, we can only rely on pet, which is either dead or does miserable damage on HA/LA or purifies casters. Besides it's a melee creature which can be kited as well.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

@Marengo: Again you fail on looking at what Im saying. Lets go oover it again. Wether you consider something to be useful or not; wont change the fact that the weight favors one side more than the other. And just cause something dont impact you, dont mean it wont impact others.

Just because both paths can get chi from the same skill, dont mean it cant generate chi. Thats just like saying you cant call venomous scarab in when looking on damage dealing, both paths generate damage with it. Sages have a higher chance; cause generating chi is what sages do.

On a side note; HA/LA is still viable for pvp. And still got advantages over AA when it comes to dealing with physical damage. Tho the numbers might be declining; I do know a handful of these thatt still do nw/tw/some PK (DW being a pve server sorta limits the pk environment). And mostly; you get good feedback. (And the occassional ragy barbs)

Vedovis - Lost City

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Wether you consider something to be useful or not; wont change the fact that the weight favors one side more than the other. And just cause something dont impact you, dont mean it wont impact others.

I feel as if both original culti paths for venomancers are pretty evenly matched. There are some Sage skills I wish I could learn [sage soul degen? yespls * 3*] and some demon skills that are superior. But then this is just my opinion.

Other venos could have the opinion that Sage is useless; therefore they would pick demon. Or vice versa. If weight favors one side over the other wouldn't there be a clear culti path to pick? If demon was so very clearly OP compared to sage, and you were outlining non-upgraded demon skills - Nova's proc, fox wallops proc, etc, wouldn't most venos pick demon? Yet I swear there are "should I go demon or sage" threads here each week and the answer has always been "they're so close, decide for yourself."

I understand how you feel, that sages have gotten the short end of the stick [demon amp venos have forever been shunned vs sage amp venos], however, I see it as balancing. Sage upgraded fox was vastly superior to demon upgraded fox [-5% crit vs 30 chi.. chi please!]. Perhaps as an AA venomancer it does make a difference compared to HA. I've never played endgame HA so I can't exactly comment on its reliability on skills.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Hm I understand what you're trying to say but when the skills themselves are still largely unused then it doesn't really matter.

For example Malefic Crush. No matter what they did to this skill it's still largely ignored by most of the population and still going to be largely ignored. Though I find the proc increase for Sage much more useful because if you do use this skill you probably go for the chance to drain all the mp in 2 seconds, in which case Sage is better to me. It's probably a matter of opinion and perspective.

Anyway, to me the only really significant plus for Demons is the Ironwood but even then, as you can see in this thread most Demons prefer the current one so it's really about opinion, perspective and build/preferences here in my opinion.

Then it's also kind of like Demons got shafted last update, now it was Sage's turn for some.

You can say that a fact is a fact but what really happens in-game and the actual choices of players matter more I believe.

Marengo - Lost City

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Marengo: Again you fail on looking at what Im saying. Lets go oover it again. Wether you consider something to be useful or not; wont change the fact that the weight favors one side more than the other. And just cause something dont impact you, dont mean it wont impact others.

Theoretically yes. 2>1. But in fact, if no1 uses a certain skill, what will it change in practice? People choose sage or demon path according to the usable skills. If we simply start counting how many skill on this or that side are better, it will give us nothing.
Malefic crush, for example, it's better on demon side. Do demons use it? Never.
Soul degeneration on sage side is better. Do sage use it? A lot.
So how come it's 1:1 here?

Just because both paths can get chi from the same skill, dont mean it cant generate chi.

Yes, but we compared sage chi gaining vs demon. And this skill is not up to the point since both sides can gain chi from it but sage still 5% faster. I've just removed numerator and denominator of same value and left what actually makes sides different.

On a side note; HA/LA is still viable for pvp. And still got advantages over AA when it comes to dealing with physical damage. Tho the numbers might be declining; I do know a handful of these thatt still do nw/tw/some PK (DW being a pve server sorta limits the pk environment). And mostly; you get good feedback. (And the occassional ragy barbs)

HA (disagree about LA though, waste of stats, but it's another topic) is viable, but for defence, not for attack.
And you kinda proved my point when I watched your latest vids. You are mostly in human form hitting with magic.
In the last vid you turned into fox to hit a psy and did about same damage as you did in human form, though psychic wasn't stunned and could run away easily. (Though in this situation his gear matters too to judge objectively. Your calc makes me think you outgear a lot of players, especially on NW where lvl 60 are allowed)
In the last but one, BM dragged you to himself and killed even in fox. As i said, they will be happy if you rely on foxform skills more. They don't need to use skills, you nicely come close to them to die, luxury b:laugh

Offtopic:
Do you really like this genie? O_o I tried srt build long ago for occult ice, and it was epic fail, slow regen, low energy and occult ice is hardly usable since it's far from 100% chance to proc and in serious pvp you'd better spend your energy on something more reliable. Switched to con/vit buid and felt like in paradise. Fortify protects from self stuns a lot, even if you are demon, ss is in cd a lot. It fully regens in about 1 min, depending on gear.
Also skills layout amazed me b:shocked Sometimes i have no time to click a skill which is on the panel, n ot talking about switching rows before using them b:chuckle

Eoria - Harshlands

If they wanted Malefic Crush to be useful, it'd be a MP drain equal to that of what Steelation or Arma throw at you in TT.

dupethefile

IronWood after rebirth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acc7fyKJTYk

Desdi - Sanctuary

dupethefile wrote: »

IronWood after rebirth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acc7fyKJTYk

Not bad o.o looks fancy. This means the other skill shown in the official video must be one of the fox form fused skills or Malefic Crush.

Also...that person is wielding the new pataka that's in weapon group 28 O.o hmm.

Azura - Lost City

I just had a thought about this rebirth system:

What is gonna happen to our pets? Are they going to reincarnate too?
Are we going to have to level them again? b:shocked

I hope we won't have to evolve them again if they do reincarnate b:surrender

Desdi - Sanctuary

I have no clue...but considering it supposedly allows you to wear the R9r3 gear because of your historical level...then it means genies and pets are use-able too?

Because imma be pissed if I can't use my pets >.>
Highly doubt we'll have to re-do quests, re-do chrono/cultivation or re-do anything on pets. That would just be lame.

DeffyNature - Archosaur

I do hope we shall be able to use our lvl 100+ pets at lvl 1, or else I'mma be pissed!

Desdi - Sanctuary

About pets, Mayfly commented here.

Well, better than having to wait all the way to lvl100.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

According to the Japanese blog post, you won't be able to use 100+ pets at level 1, but will be able to use pets 35 + 5 x number of reincarnations above you.

Using a level 41 walker or whatever at level 1 will be a bit OP. Not as OP as using a level 100 nix, but still... and you'll be 60ish within a week or so, maybe a lot sooner considering you get 4x quest and mob XP.

DeffyNature - Archosaur

Well, that still sucks, it means I'll have to re-organize my pet bag...again .-.

Azura - Lost City

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have no clue...but considering it supposedly allows you to wear the R9r3 gear because of your historical level...then it means genies and pets are use-able too?

Because imma be pissed if I can't use my pets >.>
Highly doubt we'll have to re-do quests, re-do chrono/cultivation or re-do anything on pets. That would just be lame.

I'm not worried about the chrono maps because all you need to enter is a chrono key, which we all already have.

Ofc, to get the chrono key, you need to complete a quest that start at a certain level and etc. But we all already did all that.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

According to the Japanese blog post, you won't be able to use 100+ pets at level 1, but will be able to use pets 35 + 5 x number of reincarnations above you.

Using a level 41 walker or whatever at level 1 will be a bit OP. Not as OP as using a level 100 nix, but still... and you'll be 60ish within a week or so, maybe a lot sooner considering you get 4x quest and mob XP.

(35 levels) + (5 levels x number of reincarnations)? Is that what you are saying?

So in order to use my legendary pets, which all are 101, I would need to 1st level to 61?

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

(35 levels) + (5 levels x number of reincarnations)? Is that what you are saying?

So in order to use my legendary pets, which all are 101, I would need to 1st level to 61?

Yes, that's what the Japanese blog says.

I anticipate a brisk market in level 41 walkers and sawflies (and maybe a few other pets) the first day this update goes live for us.