A little hint about SoT

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
edited August 2013 in Assassin
Kitty has something to say.

Lord of Captivation has anti-APS-buff. It starts healing itself if auto-attacked too fast. And auto-attack does just 20-25% of normal damage on it when skills do full damage. Use skills there please f:hush

Just had to say. Raging Tide has had much BH SoT lately.
Post edited by Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 on
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Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)

Comments

  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Are you very sure about that ?
    More sure than those people claiming puppeteer jails people when you spark ?

    Cuz i never noticed any of it and i dont really believe it.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    All except the healing is true (healing is Leaf Rain Dryad's schtick.)

    I don't have figures for Lord of Captivation, but on Sanzi (another boss with the same buff) my celestial giant hits ~80 on autoattack, ~2k with howl or gold armor deity.
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  • Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
    edited July 2013
    Very sure about this and learned about this from some people that had done Capti many many times. Kitty tested it on sin by first using normal attacks and then used skills. Normal attacks did about 250-300(which is about 1/5 of normal damage) and then used rib strike that hit around 3k, which is pretty what it usually does on bosses.

    And Kitty wrote that Aba guide about 16 hours after content update, and that was just assumption considering boss had same buff icon as SoT boss(which doesn't work exactly same way on all bosses though) and what boss said. Someone should write a better guide now that new Aba has been out for some time already.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    reduced damage yes. I can see that, thats pretty obvious. I dont think kitty has made a great discovery there.

    But healing you speak about.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
    edited July 2013
    Kitty's heard about that healing from others, who've done that boss much, and Kitty's not ever seen it healing itself when the buff icon ish yellow(it turns red when someone triggers it by APSing). In old SoT had at least 10 squads that didn't trigger it, so Kitty thinks it's pretty reliable information though Kitty admits she might be wrong about this, too.

    But the main point of Kitty's was that any class is better at that boss than APSing sin or BM. But good DPHing sin does decent damage.

    And that auto-attack thingie has some threshold that non-APS-classes don't trigger. Kitty thinks it might be something like 1,54 APS or something like that so that anything auto-attacking with lesser APS does still full damage, but once the threshold is met, damage ish greatly nerfed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Next time he's BH, Ill give it a test, that auto attack tresshold
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Healing is a timed IH and I'm pretty sure it's regardless of auto-attacking or not. I think idiots just think its aps related because the Aba boss heals are damage related. And a barb skill spamming will often "aps" in between, even though its 1 aps, and this will even trigger the bosses buff. Any auto-melee attack is considered apsing.

    And anti-auto attack is obvious.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I think Kitty actually needs to play a sin more often. The amout of time it takes for me to use one skill, I get more paint heals and damage by apsing the boss even with the LoC buffs. An a threshold, of auto attack does more damage than our skills, and this has been proven. A skill for me hits the boss for 3-4k, but my auto attack does 1-2k, and at 3.33 aps with windsheild (I'm sage) i still does more damage apsing. A 5.0 demon doing 600 per tickx5 a sec=3k damage, as much as the ribstrike, so it's piontless which ever tactic they use. The only way skills spamming does more damage is if you are not using an aps set, and your daggers have ****ty refines. I don't know what sins you are talking about, but their daggers suck, I guarantee you that.

    I find it funny people come on the sin forums and make suggestions, yet they dont play a sin. Scratch that, most sins are bad, everyone knows the good ones use the forums a bit more, your suggestion is kinda useless here. Next time please tell us something we don't know.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Of course, any reduction in paint heals discounts the fact that you need fewer heals when ribstrike's debuff is active. (And if you aren't tanking, you don't need anywhere near as much healing.)

    Have you compared damage with maxed chill + skills to ordinary auto-attacks?
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  • PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Of course, any reduction in paint heals discounts the fact that you need fewer heals when ribstrike's debuff is active. (And if you aren't tanking, you don't need anywhere near as much healing.)

    Have you compared damage with maxed chill + skills to ordinary auto-attacks?

    well yes but you don't need to spam rib strike to keep it up, in most cases one hit is enough for squads. and in fact you probably want to avoid using in when you engage the boss as most squads wont wait for that and begin the amp debuffs. so, personally, I prefer to spark > throw my max dps and if there is something left to rib strike, rib striek it XD
    you only purge once #yopo
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's always a good idea to hit a boss before sparking. There's this thing called heal aggro that kills clerics when stuff isn't hit...

    Plus you didn't address chill + skill spam on anti-APS bosses.

    Edit: and to maximize everyone's DPS, you should be opening with subsea strike. APS characters seem to be single-mindedly considering only their own damage, while expecting everyone else to amp the boss.
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  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Of course all the amps stuffs should be done after sparking because of their short duration.

    I agree that APSers usually focus just on their selves and think everyone is there to support their damage output. However, against bosses that do not have the buff that this thread is about, APS characters do indeed so much more damage than others that they should focus on that. Just not only on themselves, but also on the rest of the APSers. And that should mean subsea after spark because while you are sparking, the others are also supposed to be sparking.

    And for the heal agro, i still have a bit of barb soul in me even when im apsing, so usually i hit things before i spark. Since i am approaching first, that still alows me to spark together with the rest :)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • skaitavia
    skaitavia Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    On LoC, heals trigger regardless of if you have an APS sin or BM or whatever. As Saku stated, any auto attack will trigger its "anti-APS" healing mode. As for the anti-APS buff, it activated regardless of if a skill is used or not.

    You can see in this video that the anti-APS buff starts immediately when he agro'd the boss, and the healing started eventually whenever he auto attacked a couple of times between skills because some skills do that.


    As for Leaf Rain, if your DPS is high enough, it's soloable with APS.
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's always a good idea to hit a boss before sparking. There's this thing called heal aggro that kills clerics when stuff isn't hit...

    Plus you didn't address chill + skill spam on anti-APS bosses.

    Edit: and to maximize everyone's DPS, you should be opening with subsea strike. APS characters seem to be single-mindedly considering only their own damage, while expecting everyone else to amp the boss.

    APS characters? Really? You think everything I play is aps? Sorry toots but most people play more than one toon, it's the person; it doesn't change just because they switched toons. It isn't enough that most of us EP+mire bosses right? My subsea is lv3, I leave it there for AoE grinding and FC. If you don't know this, sin AoE skills cost a lot of freaking money to level, so for bosses i would rather EP than spending another 6mil to lv subsea, and 40-60m to make it sage. But I guess that's just single mindedness, not cost effectiveness considering i dont use subsea much. f:despise
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Considering people drill into us "don't overwrite subsea with EP"... um, yeah. (and you should be leveling it for use in Delta, too.)

    And play style should change when you change character, at least enough to fit the class, or you shouldn't be playing that class.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
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  • PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's always a good idea to hit a boss before sparking. There's this thing called heal aggro that kills clerics when stuff isn't hit...

    I agree, if i'm the main tank, yes

    Plus you didn't address chill + skill spam on anti-APS bosses.

    haven't done the calcs. I haven't even calculated the max dps skill rota so I'd prefer if some more experienced sin did that

    Edit: and to maximize everyone's DPS, you should be opening with subsea strike. APS characters seem to be single-mindedly considering only their own damage, while expecting everyone else to amp the boss.

    would prefer to cast subsea after I spark though.
    APS characters? Really? You think everything I play is aps? Sorry toots but most people play more than one toon, it's the person; it doesn't change just because they switched toons. It isn't enough that most of us EP+mire bosses right? My subsea is lv3, I leave it there for AoE grinding and FC. If you don't know this, sin AoE skills cost a lot of freaking money to level, so for bosses i would rather EP than spending another 6mil to lv subsea, and 40-60m to make it sage. But I guess that's just single mindedness, not cost effectiveness considering i dont use subsea much. f:despise

    lvl3 to lvl8 (27%) is 2m. lvl1 to lvl10 is 4m. I understand not spending 2m for a 3% improve but lvl3?
    you only purge once #yopo
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Considering people drill into us "don't overwrite subsea with EP"... um, yeah. (and you should be leveling it for use in Delta, too.)

    Subsea and EP don't overwrite each other, they block each other. You can see this by casting EP 1 second before Subsea wears off, the Subsea will expire 1 second later as it blocked the EP from ever being put on. The more frustrating aspect is my new combo is typically trip spark->Inner Harmony->Wolf Emblem-> Subsea which only takes about 4 seconds because of the 3 second spark channeling and 1.6 second Subsea channeling but half the time someone will put on 20% 8 second EP and blocks my 15 second 30% amp Subsea. That's why I normally tell squads I'll be doing this and not to EP until Subsea dies.

    Just like everything else in this game, play smart. The LoC boss reduces my aps damage about 1/6 with his anti aps buff, while Chill of the Deep gives me about a 15% boost to dph and I take a more support roll by keeping Rib Strike up, Subseaing every 30 seconds, and Knife Throw canceling the bosses aoes. With Tackling Slash, RDS, and Inner Harmony I can skill spam myself permasparks. Overall, Chill+skill spam gives me more damage and I'm actually likely to get aggro depending on the squad, more likely than if I aps. Paint heals aren't really an issue since the boss reduces damage by 1/6 with anti aps, and 1/4 with [?] level, so 1/24 paint heals suck.

    The Puppeteer boss also anti aps but on him I trip spark and aps. The damage difference isn't too much, but it makes me more available to tele stun and aps the puppets before they cause damage.

    Aba boss has an "anti aps" heal and I believe it works two ways. The heal isn't based on aps, but rather damage it takes. This is why it will heal even while a seeker vortexes or archer barrages and no one else attacks. It then has a second buff that "loads" his next attack based on the number of times he was hit. My sin can tank just fine if the squad is smart and stops attacking, but if they load his attack by continuing to attack then my sin will be hit too hard and die. The simplest thing to do is kill before he buffs, which is 30 seconds after he starts. Don't pull the boss, just follow the tank in and kill. It was simple and possible even with full caster squads even when Aba was a 6 person instance. With 10 people you should blow the boss up in about 7 seconds.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Subsea and EP don't overwrite each other, they block each other. You can see this by casting EP 1 second before Subsea wears off, the Subsea will expire 1 second later as it blocked the EP from ever being put on. The more frustrating aspect is my new combo is typically trip spark->Inner Harmony->Wolf Emblem-> Subsea which only takes about 4 seconds because of the 3 second spark channeling and 1.6 second Subsea channeling but half the time someone will put on 20% 8 second EP and blocks my 15 second 30% amp Subsea. That's why I normally tell squads I'll be doing this and not to EP until Subsea dies.

    Just like everything else in this game, play smart. The LoC boss reduces my aps damage about 1/6 with his anti aps buff, while Chill of the Deep gives me about a 15% boost to dph and I take a more support roll by keeping Rib Strike up, Subseaing every 30 seconds, and Knife Throw canceling the bosses aoes. With Tackling Slash, RDS, and Inner Harmony I can skill spam myself permasparks. Overall, Chill+skill spam gives me more damage and I'm actually likely to get aggro depending on the squad, more likely than if I aps. Paint heals aren't really an issue since the boss reduces damage by 1/6 with anti aps, and 1/4 with [?] level, so 1/24 paint heals suck.

    The Puppeteer boss also anti aps but on him I trip spark and aps. The damage difference isn't too much, but it makes me more available to tele stun and aps the puppets before they cause damage.

    Aba boss has an "anti aps" heal and I believe it works two ways. The heal isn't based on aps, but rather damage it takes. This is why it will heal even while a seeker vortexes or archer barrages and no one else attacks. It then has a second buff that "loads" his next attack based on the number of times he was hit. My sin can tank just fine if the squad is smart and stops attacking, but if they load his attack by continuing to attack then my sin will be hit too hard and die. The simplest thing to do is kill before he buffs, which is 30 seconds after he starts. Don't pull the boss, just follow the tank in and kill. It was simple and possible even with full caster squads even when Aba was a 6 person instance. With 10 people you should blow the boss up in about 7 seconds.

    ^This. I'm farming r9 peices, 4m is almost one GST here on DW. I understand leveling it, but I don't use it often, even in delta the squads i go with clip through the mobs in about 10-15 secs (non def or hp increase ones). It's not really nessasary, and I'd rather save my 2 sparks in most instances incase somethings happens, but eh that's just me.

    As for LoC, I'm normally one of the best geared, or only sins in the squad. My genie has a ton of amps skills that I use to amp my farming since I am sage, it allows me to farms as fast as any demons in the same gear, who don't have the genie I have. Some people cast subsea, I prefer to cast power dash.
  • Frighten - Dreamweaver
    Frighten - Dreamweaver Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I do way more damage with chill of the deep and skill spamming, rather than APS when the boss does anti-dps skill.

    I'm 5.0 sparked as well with G 16 daggers.



    Some players would rather be 'right' in their own mind than modify their playstyle. b:laugh
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I do way more damage with chill of the deep and skill spamming, rather than APS when the boss does anti-dps skill.

    I'm 5.0 sparked as well with G 16 daggers.



    Some players would rather be 'right' in their own mind than modify their playstyle. b:laugh

    Yes, but you also don't use amp abilities much Ds >.>. Spark>Inner Harmony>Condensed thorn>Mire>powerdash>EP.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Yes, but you also don't use amp abilities much Ds >.>. Spark>Inner Harmony>Condensed thorn>Mire>powerdash>EP.

    Can still use that combo while skill spamming.

    I usually chill of the deep, then spark, Wolf emblem, Inner Harmony, Subsea, Rib Strike, Rising Dragon Strike, Tackling Slash (already back to 2 sparks), Condensed Thorn, then run through my skill spam skills (Slip Stream, Deep Sting, Raving Slash). I hit 3 sparks right as my spark dies and can rotate my skills again.

    You're right that I avoid Power Dash. When you consider a skill that takes 1.2 seconds to cast and you're apsing, you gain 40% (lvl 10 or demon) to 50% crit but it costs you 6 attacks to do it. The math has been done and this is like an 11% dps increase for demons and 13% dps increase for sages for 8 seconds. Not worth 2 sparks usually. In the right situation it is, when you have other sins subseaing for you and you're apsing. Even in those situations I usually hold on to my sparks to use in case I get sealed, stunned, or want to spark resist an attack.

    But SoT boss should be skill spammed, and your Subsea increasing 9 peoples damage by 30% (10% over EP) is much more use than increasing your own by 13% and should take priority.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    *takes notes and makes a skill spam macro*
    you only purge once #yopo
  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited August 2013
    I'd suggest tossing rift in sometime early on with the sparks and debuffs. A good crit on my rift takes out a decent chunk of HP on the boss and normally secures me aggro for the rest of the fight when I want to tank it.


    And yes, it's fairly easy to permaspark skill spam on the boss (especially for sage). That said, for the powerdash vs subsea thing, it depends on the squad you're in and communication. In random squads people will often ignore me saying not to EP so I can subsea so I'll just shrug and powerdash instead (which basically makes all my attacks crits that get boosted by wolf emblem while it's active). For people I actually know, I don't even have to mention it and, if more than one of us is on a sin, subsea tends to get rotated wordlessly due to being used to each other.
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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    OPKossy wrote: »
    For people I actually know, I don't even have to mention it and, if more than one of us is on a sin, subsea tends to get rotated wordlessly due to being used to each other.

    <3 these squads, but it makes random or non-static squads so frustrating. Especially when the random squad has awesome dd but kills horribly slow because of bad coordination. For most instances like Warsong with multiple bosses you can get a rhythm after only 1 or 2 bosses if people pay attention or communicate.

    I'm demon and have my O Subsea, so if amp and HF are coordinated right, along with devour or ironwood (lets say 50% debuff for about 35% more dd) you get:

    200% HF x 130% amp x 130% subsea x 135% def debuff = 456% damage more pre hit. Replace the Subsea with EP and its only 421% damage, so it's adding 35% more dph than EP during this time. Not using either means you lose 105% dph. Pretty much an entire DD player is lost from this, lol.

    Sage Subsea being 50% is even more extreme. You get 527% dph during these combined amps/debuffs, but not using it drops an entire squads dd -176%.

    Btw, the above math is the reason I'd laugh at people who thought 5 sins and 1 BM (or 4 and 2) was the best vana combo instead of taking a veno for pdef debuffs and amps. When amps stack, dph is insane and can 4-6x your damage pretty easily.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The sin instead of veno is not that bad. Not better, but not too bad either. If you have a squad with cleric, that is 4x1,3 = 5,2 vs 5 DDs. The other multipliers you dont need to take into account because they also count for this 5th DD. So i usually just WC for either one.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Can still use that combo while skill spamming.

    I usually chill of the deep, then spark, Wolf emblem, Inner Harmony, Subsea, Rib Strike, Rising Dragon Strike, Tackling Slash (already back to 2 sparks), Condensed Thorn, then run through my skill spam skills (Slip Stream, Deep Sting, Raving Slash). I hit 3 sparks right as my spark dies and can rotate my skills again.

    You're right that I avoid Power Dash. When you consider a skill that takes 1.2 seconds to cast and you're apsing, you gain 40% (lvl 10 or demon) to 50% crit but it costs you 6 attacks to do it. The math has been done and this is like an 11% dps increase for demons and 13% dps increase for sages for 8 seconds. Not worth 2 sparks usually. In the right situation it is, when you have other sins subseaing for you and you're apsing. Even in those situations I usually hold on to my sparks to use in case I get sealed, stunned, or want to spark resist an attack.

    But SoT boss should be skill spammed, and your Subsea increasing 9 peoples damage by 30% (10% over EP) is much more use than increasing your own by 13% and should take priority.

    As this is true, I'll use subsea more once I lv it (which will be soon). Trying to wait til I get the sage skill book for it, but that's going to be a while. Normally, yes their are other sins subseaing, but I'll lv my AoE's now that I have Toxic Torrent in my list. For those who asking why I didn't lv my AoE's, I farm TT a lot, not FC, I lved my other skills like Tidal and Focused mind first, I left my AoE skills unlved because I barely use them compre to my single target ones. However I am not a poor sin anymore, time to lv them I guess XD (have a few skill books in me bank).
  • Gnip - Raging Tide
    Gnip - Raging Tide Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    With correct timed triple sparks(w/ debuffs) and skill spamming you should be hitting in 50k-300k range per hit. Boss goes down pretty fast. that is with zerk daggers