Sage or Demon

hewhodies

Its getting to the time to choose Sage or Demon for me Iv read many of the skills and a few of the posts but before i choose id like to get the opinions of the community

Which do u think is better for a veno Sage or Demon also which r u?

Desdi - Sanctuary

There are a lot of threads/discussions about it already. Try checking the Useful Venomancer Links sticky, you'll find links there or simply use the search function.

Overall, the cultivations are pretty balanced. Each one has their own advantages, disadvantages and playstyles. Personally, I am a Demon.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

I'm demon, but wish I was sage. My veno was the first char I got to chose a culti and everyone was telling me demon was better (back in time I didn't know ecatomb and didn't knew really the difference) so I did listen people and chose demon, than stopped play veno for a while, now I play my veno as alt and really regret to be demon, I can't change that for now, but I try to find things for demon to appreciate it. (like the speed)

All I can say is chose by yourself, you can check people arguments about it, but decide what you want, check Ecatomb and all skills check what skill you use the most and what bonus is more for you.

There's no bad choice for veno as Desdi say, both culti have good and bad stuff, it's just a personal choice.

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear

I think I understand what the OP is debating with.

I'm 89 now and I honestly am not sure. I feel like leaning towards sage. Like sage amp sounds really awesome.

Then someone told me that Demon has better speed (which I'm not really sure what, because ecatomb doesn't say anything about speed - unless I missed it out), and speed is quite important to me, because I really like to help by debuffing mobs, then noxious and nova blah blah. But I'm not sure where this speed thing is for?

Also, Ironwood for Demon seems a little.... I don't know what's the word. The proc is awesome, but 20% seems a little, slim? Seeing as how it's not spammable.

I'm at an impasse. Any input to help myself and OP?

1. The speed thing for Demon, what skill are we looking at?
2. Demon ironwood - bad? good?

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Demon Foxform gives a 6 second speed boost on each form change.

You can get nearly as good a debuff on mobs, and more reliably, using sage ironwood + tangling mire on a high strength genie. (Buffed players have bonuses to pdef that this combo won't touch, but will be erased by demon ironwood.) Plus there's a chance to get an armor break from either of the myriad rainbows as well.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1. The speed thing for Demon, what skill are we looking at?
2. Demon ironwood - bad? good?

1. As said it's Increases movement speed by 60% for 6 seconds after transforming and since the CD is 6 second if you keep changing you are in permanent speed, that make demon veno the fastest class in game. (with summer sprint and demon fox form if I use holy path I reach 15 m/sec.

2. At the start I wasn't really sure about it for the same reasons, than what make me care less was first I deal magic damage so to me it doesn't affect my damage, second lvl11 hit harder than lvl10 and third when there's a barb or good cleric in the squad they do debuff, for cleric it's 40% for 20-25 sec and barb 50% so even if you was sage in squad it doesn't really matter since other class can do the same or better and when I solo quest I personally DD in human form so it's not a huge deal for me.

tweakz

I think the question has been over asked, shouldn't be asked (do some research), they are balanced.

Untamed_pain - Archosaur

I'm Demon. Wanna know how i chose. I listen to my ex he basically said Demon you hit standing up and sage you use foxform and i didn't use foxform for nothing at the time lol.

I love being demon don't ever wanna go sage. Even though people said to >.> and of course i use foxform for amp/purge/soul degen

Lucy_a - Sanctuary

Finished my culti yesterday on my veno.I went demon.b:victory

I have to say i LOVE LOVE LOVE the speed i get from demon fox form.I can keep up the speed of 9.9m/sec all the time by switching fox form on/off.Still have to lvl Summer Sprint to 3 Dx .

Learned Bramble Guard and Venomous Scarab too.
Even tho i saw some threads floating around bout Bramble nerf,dunno how it effected the demon version,will have to look it up.

As many of the others said,you will really have to read all the skills description on ecatomb and chose the path u like.

Yesterday someone told me i am a rare kind of veno because im going demon.b:laughb:chuckle

Desdi - Sanctuary

- You still have the option not to learn Demon Ironwood if you'd like a reliable physical defence debuff. It won't be as strong but still reliable.
On the other hand the damage boost from having lvl11 Ironwood is sweet and Demon one's is the strongest physical defence debuff in game right now. The difference is not noticeable vs. Myriad in PvE because monsters have low defence but it is a big difference in PvP since Demon one reduces the physical defence to 0 regardless.
Now, it's all about if you like to gamble your skills or not, hence I said playstyle. I don't mind; I like it but others would rather have something more reliable.
In worst case, there's also Pierce on pets.

- Demon Venomancers have to switch forms to keep a permanent speed buff. On top of Holy Path (and Purify Proc) they can kite the best. In PvE it reduces the necessity of having Holy Path on your genie and can replaced with something else. I still think it's good for PvP though, I still use it.

- Sage Amplify is only better than Demon if the boss can die in 20 seconds, which is the debuff's duration. If the boss stays alive longer than that, Demon Amplify has the upper hand. Unless you have a lot of OP friends, endgame bosses usually have a lot of HP so Sages don't have a huge advantage with their Amplify (there are still easy bosses of course where Sage one shines).
On the other hand, there's Sage Soul Degeneration but there are endgame bosses that are immune to the HP debuff.
Additionally, Demons have Parasitic Nova with an AOE 30% amplify (curse - the HF icon).

I find them pretty balanced but they shine in different ways, areas, instances.

I'd suggest to go on ecatomb and read all the skills. Make a list of the skills you like from each cultivation and then compare them.

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear

Oh wow. I think your reply has helped me make my decision Desdi.

Gonna do my demon culti... Right after I get my harpy to level 91 with me.

Desdi - Sanctuary

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh wow. I think your reply has helped me make my decision Desdi.

Gonna do my demon culti... Right after I get my harpy to level 91 with me.

I'm glad b:chuckle

tweakz

1) I don't like these debates because they're full of partiality and simple mindedness.

I have a lot of respect for Desdi, but I'll just use what they said as an example:

- Sage Amplify is only better than Demon if the boss can die in 20 seconds, which is the debuff's duration. If the boss stays alive longer than that, Demon Amplify has the upper hand.

Demon doesn't become better or even comparable at 21 seconds. Sage amp has an effect on the duration of the battle. You're also not considering spike dmg in combining it with Subsea, HF, ulti's, etc. Demon amp is more forgiving on timings, and stuns. Demons also lack the -20% HP debuff that helps make some bosses go down in 20sec. These debuffs aren't just useful on bosses, but mobs also. -Maybe less now that our pets can hold aggro again.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

You still have the option not to learn Demon Ironwood if you'd like a reliable physical defence debuff. It won't be as strong but still reliable.

Some venos use Pierce on pet for when demon ironwood fails.

The OP should put more value into what they find here:
http://pwi.ecatomb.net/skill.php

-than yet another vs thread.

Lucy_a - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Demon doesn't become better or even comparable at 21 seconds. Sage amp has an effect on the duration of the battle. You're also not considering spike dmg in combining it with Subsea, HF, ulti's, etc. Demon amp is more forgiving on timings, and stuns. Demons also lack the -20% HP debuff that helps make some bosses go down in 20sec. These debuffs aren't just useful on bosses, but mobs also. -Maybe less now that our pets can hold aggro again.

Last time i checked demon amp was 26 seconds (not 21) with 25% debuff.

Sage being 30% for 20 seconds.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Tweakz' point is that while demon amp increases damage more over the long term, at 21 seconds into the battle the sage amp, even though it is no longer active, has contributed more than demon.

Desdi - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Demon doesn't become better or even comparable at 21 seconds. Sage amp has an effect on the duration of the battle. You're also not considering spike dmg in combining it with Subsea, HF, ulti's, etc. Demon amp is more forgiving on timings, and stuns. Demons also lack the -20% HP debuff that helps make some bosses go down in 20sec. These debuffs aren't just useful on bosses, but mobs also. -Maybe less now that our pets can hold aggro again.

Hmm, I am aware of that spike damage thing especially since the Nirvana days but I kind of went by solandri's numbers when they did those calculations, if anyone remembers but truth to be told I didn't want to go too much into detail and explain everything since there are a lot of threads out there.

I think the difference is just very little when you compare the two in a long boss fight or when the squad is just way too OP to even matter which Amp it actually is; ended up in those a few times.

For the Soul Degeneration part though I explained that there are endgame bosses who are immune to it so it's not always an advantage (eg. new BH SoT boss has been changed to be immune to any HP reduction debuffs) while Parasitic Nova for Demons has the 30% amp that is quite nice inbetween HFs (or when there is lack of one and no BV either) and whatnot so..it's a lot of situations to consider when you think about the two paths.

I just tried to explain that both can fare well but in different scenarios. I may have failed at explaining it though. I'm not that good with numbers.

tweakz

Solandri was notorious for ignoring contributing factors, but he did do a lot of great math stuff for us.

I really suggest the OP go by ecatomb's information as the most unbiased source of info, and just take into account anything suggested here as being broken, replaceable, etc (Like how Desdi points out that Sage Soul Degeneration doesn't work on the new BH SoT boss, and some other bosses).

I play 7 classes and feel all the cultis for them are well balanced for PvE. I lack PvP experience to comment.

Play style is what matters. I'll use that -20% hp debuff and amp on mobs; not just bosses. -Many players are too lazy to. Though I have sage purge: I have no use for it in PvE. This is why you need to look at the skill descriptions yourself, because only you will know what's best for you.

Desdi - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

I really suggest the OP go by ecatomb's information as the most unbiased source of info, and just take into account anything suggested here as being broken, replaceable, etc

Play style is what matters. I'll use that -20% hp debuff and amp on mobs; not just bosses. -Many players are too lazy to. Though I have sage purge: I have no use for it in PvE. This is why you need to look at the skill descriptions yourself, because only you will know what's best for you.

^ yep agreed with that.
I guess some people want an extra word or two from a player instead of just reading the skills which leads them here.

overcomem

if u like to have chi or spark anyday go sage (Sage Spirit Fox Form/Get 35 Chi for each cast (6 seconds cooldown) + Master Li's Technique 50 chi per 1 min) u no worry about skills that costs u 2 sparks with short cooldown (30 secs) / but depends what u like some demon skill is awesome like (Ironwood Scarab<-- my friend go demon becuase of this skill/Bramble Guard(better reflection)/Spirit Fox Form(fun with speed)/Parasitic Nova(more damage)/Frost Scarab/etc.)

tweakz

overcomem wrote: »

my friend go demon becuase of this skill/Bramble Guard(better reflection)/Spirit Fox Form(fun with speed)/Parasitic Nova(more damage)/Frost Scarab/etc.)

Demon Nova does less dmg than sage. Frost Scarab is practically useless (at least in pve).

Desdi - Sanctuary

..but both are 300% weapon damage plus 8606 o.o unless I missed something.
Did you mean Noxious Gas? I know Sage gets bigger damage boost and Demon just a shorter cooldown by 1 second and yeah, Demon Forst Scarab has mainly PvP applications.

tweakz

You're right Desdi, I should have double checked before posting that.

Highestelf - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

I think the question has been over asked, shouldn't be asked (do some research), they are balanced.

Obviously peeps are happy to share on the topic here.

If you don't like it, why are you here? MOVE ALONG!!!

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Highestelf - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Obviously peeps are happy to share on the topic here.


If you don't like it, why are you here? MOVE ALONG!!!

NECROOO!!!!!!!

Highestelf - Heavens Tear replied to a message that was 2 months 16 days 3 hours 7 minutes old.