Purify weapon proc and the monstrosities that wield them

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

If your server is like mine, you probably have a few players running around looking like this guy. Maybe even better than that build because the calc doesn't have upgraded tome, belt, r9 ring refines, ring or belt engravings, and they usually have the new buff pills from supply tokens.

25k pdef, 16k+ hp, and 84 def level casters are ridiculously impossible for me to kill but I keep running into them. More and more each day as gear improves. They're always buffed because they never die and lose them. Even worse if they have bramble.

Still, even the sturdiest trees can be chopped down with enough axe swings. But these trees don't stand still for you to chop at them.

Its a huge problem for me not being able to keep them in range or stunned long enough to charm bipass. Anytime I get close they get purified and run away so they can get a charm tick, let their skills cooldown, build chi, or just start range attacking me.

This is mostly a Q.q thread but I'm hoping some productive knowledge comes from it. The few techinques I've tried to implement are use of seals during their channeling (we have one seal...), Blade Hurl to unequip their weapon for 6 seconds, chi suppresion to keep them from sparking on me or using 2 spark skills, and I've even started to approach killing them like killing a catabarb. I try to purge them with a purify pole and I try to HF/TM combo. Many archers and BMs are incredibly frustrated by HFing or Blood Vowing and the very next attack purges our curse off them.

So, what are your techniques?

TheDan - Sanctuary

In a 1v1 situation, I wouldn't waste my time trying to cut them down unless I had to; I'd worry more about CCing the people around them. In the rare occasion where I have to, or have nothing better to do, I usually chi drain them and do a roar of pride to hold them in place initially, then I'll whip out my spirit blackhole purge spear and keep swinging until they're purged. They're almost impossible to kill full buffed due to their infinite ability to kite and break out of stun-lock.

If you have a lot of support with you, you may not even need to purge them, but purging is more appropriate in a 1v1 situation. Sometimes if I know I have a lot of heavy hitters on my side, I'll reel them into a large group of our own DDs and stun, they'll get focused hard and die without much effort. If they're somewhat smart and you suspect they'll fortify, you can use smack + whirlwind/reckless rush, and then follow up with a stun too.

After purge I'll quickly drake bash them, stack tangling mire (and if appropriate HF) and pray their purify skill doesn't proc before they die.

That's about the only technique I've had success with so far. It's pretty annoying to see R999 psys, clerics, and wizards carrying flags in NW because when you attack them they get purified, immune stunned, and speed boosted...

Overall, to kill another R999 +12 properly sharded AA with the purify spell is too time consuming, and unless you have no one else to target, or have lots of good support, they are not even worth engaging.

T_i_m - Dreamweaver

I learned long ago that given equivalent gear, a sin should always beat a bm unless you get lucky breaking through tidal. Most sins suck and can be beaten anyways but not all of them... so I made a psychic.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

If your server is like mine, you probably have a few players running around looking like this guy. Maybe even better than that build because the calc doesn't have upgraded tome, belt, r9 ring refines, ring or belt engravings, and they usually have the new buff pills from supply tokens.

Better and worse, cause most of them actually shard their weapons better than that but the fail sharders have worse overall gear...

The Sins I work with in NW complain about it ALOT. However it comes down to three factors:

1. Is the player smart
2. Do you have enough support
3. Is the group you're working with smart

Factor 1: Intelligence of the opponent

If they're just gonna spark and blow people away, they aren't as big of a problem. Really, with the Purify Proc CCs and Stun locks are only temporary and not as much of a killing strategy anymore.

Unfortunately, if you've got a nation full of +5 Hook Sins apsing everything in sight even crappy played AAs are gonna be invincible. This is why when you study to TW with good factions they talk a lot about what weapon people are using and to change up tactics on those opponents. The random scrub going for 25 tokens a nation war isn't in this mindset.

With the nature of how NW works, you can just CC and forget these people. Utilize your cleric to sleep seal, use smack or reel in or stun them and leave. Chi gank skills are nice to keep their DD down - but if theyre pro enough, theyre prepped for it and will still pull off a 2 spark. Blade Hurl is nice to cut down their damage...but its 6 seconds.

Wasting your time on a purge weapon is kinda pointless, they can leave with the proc and nuke you from range. Ideally, youve got it right - amp and hit hard. If they're dumb and don't run, provided your axes are good enough you can get em down.

Also, if you're tanky and good enough - play target. Be their target and tank it till the right people come along to take out the issue (see #2)

If they 2-3 spark and Antistun and IG...just leave. They'll have a harder time keeping up with you and nuking than you will trying to put down an immune nuclear blasting AA.

So far BT works well vs them at least in support damage, and Ive had a 1-2 nasty Reckless Rushes on them.

Factor 2: Support

All of the issues in Factor 1 are easily mitigated by cooperation. Most of the time I have to get ganked myself to get killed, so its best to work with a group.

Veno to purge and amp, do one or two CCs, and unload on the person. Make sure your team is coordinated, and do not rely on APS hits. Even sins should not be apsing much in NW either.

Factor 3: Intelligence of you and your team/side

As stated above, pretty much a bunch of idiot plvled sins with +5 Hooks will practically make a purify proc weaponed AA an unstoppable flag carrier.

Ideally just stun/sleep the person till you have 2+ people ready to gank the person. Keep reel in and blade hurl in mind, but really if your group just smartly purges/amps/heavy DDs they will fall. Dont even think about stacking amps either, just work one at a time to layer them if purify goes off.

I've watched decent R9 archers also take these people out, so as long as you stay in their face the archer can do their work.

Also, you need to factor in your own AAs. They also have the ability to CC or deal with these builds highly, its not just a HA/LA vs AA world. Same strategy with the Archer.

Conclusion Thoughts:

On Purify: It's too powerful. I did some testing with a faction mate and the damn thing was either firing every 5th hit, or every other hit. The frequency of its ability needs to come down a bunch - the tankier AAs it usually takes more than 2-4 hits to put down. I do like the balance it brings vs sins, but thats only for 5 classes - not the rest of us.

But the weapons are here, they aren't going anywhere. We just have to change our tactics and accept we aren't as useful vs AAs with this weapon anymore. We gotta hope for heavy hit. It could be worse, they could be dex based...

In the end: If they're dumb, its not a biggie, just gang up on them. If you don't have the support, play evasion and move onto easier targets. If your team is dumb, you're screwed. Play smarter than them, utilize good teamwork, and remember not every opponent has to die - just CC and leave.

TheDan - Sanctuary

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I learned long ago that given equivalent gear, a sin should always beat a bm unless you get lucky breaking through tidal. Most sins suck and can be beaten anyways but not all of them... so I made a psychic.

That used to be the case pre-r9 and fortification draught.

APS sins don't scare me anymore; they used to pre-r9 when I was a hybrid HA 3.33 APS set up for PvP, but now I can pop a fortification draught and magic marrow and laugh.

The full R999 sins with epic refines and shards are the ones to worry about these days. They can mass CC and survive without much risk of dying.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

then I'll whip out my spirit blackhole purge spear and keep swinging until they're purged.

That will work on the classes that aren't wizards, but wizards have that annoying arcane defense. So unless you skill spam with the spear, which will really slow it down in chance to proc, you might need to team up to take em down.

Was thinking of using their proc against them. You know it will likely proc quickly if you switch to fisting, so try to control the direction they face before stunning them. Have the group ready to kill/cc them stand the appropriate distance behind the wizzie, then when it procs they move from their position straight into an ambush.

While it may not be possible in a 20 v 20, the cases where the OP is in a 4 v 20 would allow for that level of coordination. Seems like it would be worth a try, though since I always solo it is unlikely I will end up doing so.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

That will work on the classes that aren't wizards, but wizards have that annoying arcane defense. So unless you skill spam with the spear, which will really slow it down in chance to proc, you might need to team up to take em down.

Was thinking of using their proc against them. You know it will likely proc quickly if you switch to fisting, so try to control the direction they face before stunning them. Have the group ready to kill/cc them stand the appropriate distance behind the wizzie, then when it procs they move from their position straight into an ambush.

While it may not be possible in a 20 v 20, the cases where the OP is in a 4 v 20 would allow for that level of coordination. Seems like it would be worth a try, though since I always solo it is unlikely I will end up doing so.

Doesn't arcane defense only proc once per 25 seconds? I would think Psychics would be the worst, with that kind of soulforce you'd get sealed every few hits as well, on top of the purify.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doesn't arcane defense only proc once per 25 seconds? I would think Psychics would be the worst, with that kind of soulforce you'd get sealed every few hits as well, on top of the purify.

That'd again depend on if grouped or not. One person getting sealed isn't an issue, but arcane defense proc'ing with people positioned to attack the spot where the wizzie was would leave all unable to attack, unless they were alot closer than their spell's max range. And since SoS causes a negative debuff on the attacker, you can easily use genie/apoth/skills to counter-act that, vs. the Arcane Defense's manipulation of your target's positioning.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

That'd again depend on if grouped or not. One person getting sealed isn't an issue, but arcane defense proc'ing with people positioned to attack the spot where the wizzie was would leave all unable to attack, unless they were alot closer than their spell's max range. And since SoS causes a negative debuff on the attacker, you can easily use genie/apoth/skills to counter-act that, vs. the Arcane Defense's manipulation of your target's positioning.

Oh hmm, yeah that seems about right. I was looking at it from a 1v1 purging standpoint I guess. They both have their annoyances, but will surge / immune damage can bypass SoS, whereas arcane defense doesn't really have a counter other than it's slow 25 second proc rate.

Zanryu - Lothranis

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh hmm, yeah that seems about right. I was looking at it from a 1v1 purging standpoint I guess. They both have their annoyances, but will surge / immune damage can bypass SoS, whereas arcane defense doesn't really have a counter other than it's slow 25 second proc rate.

As much as I dislike Arcane Defense, in a 1v1 situation it's a bit of a double edged sword, especially against a BM. If you were to take too much damage from a Wizard, and were only a hit or two from death you can auto-attack them forcing them to leap back rendering them unable to finish you, and leap back to gain extra distance and allow your charm to tick. I've done this a few times to an R9R3 Wizard on my server since I don't have nearly enough defense to tank too many of his hits self buffed only.

Though, more than anything, it's a pain to deal with, especially if you're trying to purge or if it's a group PvP situation and other people auto attack your target and free them from your lock.

CapnK - Sanctuary

Blade Tornado won't proc Purify. If they have enough hp to survive it though good luck trying to finish them off.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »

Blade Tornado won't proc Purify. If they have enough hp to survive it though good luck trying to finish them off.

Ugh, Ive heard from two people who got lucky and sword cyclone proc'ed it. Nobody has screen shots or videos tho.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

One painful habit to break is seeing them break my stun and thinking they just used Faith or Badge and now have an empty genie.

Curious if I can make a pk genie somewhat oriented around killing these guys. Chi burn definitely, but something to keep them in place that doesn't purify off?

And the setup I see in NW is either these guys running the flag, or running backup behind the flag runner and just annihilating anyone who tries to stop the flag runner. A couple of times I've stunned the flag carrier then decided it was better to occupy the caster myself so others could focus on the carrier, but because of their speed bump and the anti stun I can't seperate them and they take forever to kill. I kind of want a farther distance for people to need to carry the flag.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

One painful habit to break is seeing them break my stun and thinking they just used Faith or Badge and now have an empty genie.

Curious if I can make a pk genie somewhat oriented around killing these guys. Chi burn definitely, but something to keep them in place that doesn't purify off?

And the setup I see in NW is either these guys running the flag, or running backup behind the flag runner and just annihilating anyone who tries to stop the flag runner. A couple of times I've stunned the flag carrier then decided it was better to occupy the caster myself so others could focus on the carrier, but because of their speed bump and the anti stun I can't seperate them and they take forever to kill. I kind of want a farther distance for people to need to carry the flag.

That and reduce BT to two sparks and let us use genie skills. Glacial Mired BT with occultb:dirty

That'll teach those dirty casters.

T_i_m - Dreamweaver

I typically run cover for my squad's carrier. Yoyo'd a wiz in the face with my soulsphere to knock him away from our carrier whose charm had just ticked.

Eoria - Harshlands

Blade Hurl disables purify proc.

Unfortunately, it can also proc the damn thing upon casting.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Blade Hurl disables purify proc.

Unfortunately, it can also proc the damn thing upon casting.

Hmmm haven't noticed this. But I'm curious now so Im gonna have to test this.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

If disarm does diable Purify proc, anyone know if it over-writes itself? Like another Blade Hurl before the time of the first one is up. That would give a good time frame for a proper beatdown before charm tick. Though hopefully such skill use tie-up wouldn't be needed too often on our server.

TheDan - Sanctuary

It would make sense that it would disable purify as it would disarm your weapon entirely. I guess I hadn't thought of this, so it seems like a viable way to kill them assuming you have support because you'll be disarmed yourself during 3 of those 6 seconds.

I've never been in a situation where I've seen it chained since it has such a long cooldown compared to Roar, but I'll do some tests in a moment to find out if it overrides or if it's like stun where if you over-lap it doesn't work. My guess would be that it won't over-ride as it's a control skill. Seals, silences, stuns, freeze don't overlap as the most common control skills, but damage debuffs like HF, glacial spike, will. Oddly enough, extreme poison seems to be the exception to the rule.

Edit: Just checked in game. Blade hurl overrides and stacks, me and another bm just tested it about 3 times. We chained blade hurl and both fisted @ 4aps a r999 psy after chain stacking blade hurl and no proc.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

As much as I dislike Arcane Defense, in a 1v1 situation it's a bit of a double edged sword, especially against a BM. If you were to take too much damage from a Wizard, and were only a hit or two from death you can auto-attack them forcing them to leap back rendering them unable to finish you, and leap back to gain extra distance and allow your charm to tick. I've done this a few times to an R9R3 Wizard on my server since I don't have nearly enough defense to tank too many of his hits self buffed only.

Though, more than anything, it's a pain to deal with, especially if you're trying to purge or if it's a group PvP situation and other people auto attack your target and free them from your lock.

The only problem with your idea is that Arcane Defense is not activated if at the time you are channeling a skill. So lets say you were a hit or two away from dying and you go to knock the wizard back, if he/she is already channeling a skill it wont activate thus rendering you still dead T_T.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've never been in a situation where I've seen it chained since it has such a long cooldown compared to Roar

Yeah, it shouldn't see alot of use; but, the thread is going towards beating high end/final set gear types. And the one going through my head, is that wizzie from Lost City that kept winning 4 on 20s. That would be an instance where it would be geared towards seeing use, just planning ahead for what we might expect to see on Sanc server in the future.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Toomaga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only problem with your idea is that Arcane Defense is not activated if at the time you are channeling a skill. So lets say you were a hit or two away from dying and you go to knock the wizard back, if he/she is already channeling a skill it wont activate thus rendering you still dead T_T.

Can't say I've noticed that happening, must have been landing hits before they channeled in each case. It's worked out pretty well for me when trying to survive 4-8k hits, gotten me quite a few needed charm ticks.

Toomaga - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Can't say I've noticed that happening, must have been landing hits before they channeled in each case. It's worked out pretty well for me when trying to survive 4-8k hits, gotten me quite a few needed charm ticks.

Actually your idea also reminds me of something Aesthor (I think it was Aesthor) said about knocking a wizard back with fist when they shrink into your rangeb:chuckle.

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear

THat wiz is hax, i refuse to believe such creatures exist b:bye

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

THat wiz is hax, i refuse to believe such creatures exist b:bye

who was it?
adroit or someone else?




uh i would love to see a vid of 3 bms chain-using blade hurl + stuns to take down a max gear caster
there is still a lot of stuff that could go wrong when the genie isnt emty beforehand

cleric and mystic should be splat reqlly fast
wiz gonna fly away on arcane defense and gain a short reaction frame... and psy gonna seal
skills still wok without weap.. they jst dont hurt and no purify ...


..and i thought bms already had a terribly hard time in nw before so many purify weaps were around.
fortify, badge, remove paralysis, bramle and arcane defense seemed enough already to duck up bms and assasins..

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

who was it?
adroit or someone else?




uh i would love to see a vid of 3 bms chain-using blade hurl + stuns to take down a max gear caster
there is still a lot of stuff that could go wrong when the genie isnt emty beforehand

cleric and mystic should be splat reqlly fast
wiz gonna fly away on arcane defense and gain a short reaction frame... and psy gonna seal
skills still wok without weap.. they jst dont hurt and no purify ...


..and i thought bms already had a terribly hard time in nw before so many purify weaps were around.
fortify, badge, remove paralysis, bramle and arcane defense seemed enough already to duck up bms and assasins..

The thing is it WAS enough to **** up BMs and Sins, unless you got massively ganked, but if you can survive a large game at end game and survive then you really wouldn't need Purify Spell anyway. But good ol' Wanmei's like "Hey guise wut if liek we putz a skil dat taekz off debufz n liek gifs 6 secnd antistunz n 200% sped!!" and tipped the scales way into Arcane classes' favor.

Me am sad panda.

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

who was it?
adroit or someone else?




uh i would love to see a vid of 3 bms chain-using blade hurl + stuns to take down a max gear caster
there is still a lot of stuff that could go wrong when the genie isnt emty beforehand

cleric and mystic should be splat reqlly fast
wiz gonna fly away on arcane defense and gain a short reaction frame... and psy gonna seal
skills still wok without weap.. they jst dont hurt and no purify ...


..and i thought bms already had a terribly hard time in nw before so many purify weaps were around.
fortify, badge, remove paralysis, bramle and arcane defense seemed enough already to duck up bms and assasins..

What we bms need.....is a skill that decreases phy def by 50%, def lvl by 10, but raises mag res by 1000% for 30 minutes, 0 chi required to cast b:avoid

Maelael - Heavens Tear

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edit: Just checked in game. Blade hurl overrides and stacks, me and another bm just tested it about 3 times. We chained blade hurl and both fisted @ 4aps a r999 psy after chain stacking blade hurl and no proc.

I knew it stacked and could be chained, but thats good news on the purify proc. I see blade hurl going up in price or at least being utilized more...

Morridune - Raging Tide

I suppose with the puri weap and arcane defence on a wizzy the plan could be to force the arcane defence then disarm and use skill/genie to debuff their movement then with cloud spint and tornado's range u should be able to keep them inside the AoE and ur only going up against their p.deff rather than p.deff +deff lvl tho tbh it wouldnt hurt if we had a nice immobilize skill or extra seal there is wind prison (genie) that's 4s and u need to get into range but there is ofc the fact that to kill these high end geared players we're becoming more and more chi dependant and our genie's are becoming more and more our chi hoe's

i would need this checking but it does appear from description tho the the weapon proc once removing the 1st debuff only stops stun and slow not other effects such as freeze, immobilize etc so it may be a case of changing from completely locking em down so they cant do anything changing to using effects that stick em in place and using interrupts and debuffs to mess up how often they can hit or how hard the days of perma stun locks are sadly gone but i still reckon we have a few good tricks to force opponents into playin a hella lot less efficiently

tho pwi dev ppl polearms skills (at the least) could do with been 16-20ms or we get additional way's to deal with kite's you cant claim that through genie's and new morai skills/update's you havn't given em more than enough ways to break out and run from stunlocks and close combatants

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I only made one good use of a wizzy in NW. Wizzy was heavy dd, i put myself between the flag carrier and the wizzy. That pushed the wizzy back, out of range, stunned, that gave time enough for the flag carrier to reach end. At the end, wizzy used apoc items, i use blade hurl to give flag carrier 3~5 seconds needed. We won. Still couldn't kill the wizzy.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

If your server is like mine, you probably have a few players running around looking like this guy. Maybe even better than that build because the calc doesn't have upgraded tome, belt, r9 ring refines, ring or belt engravings, and they usually have the new buff pills from supply tokens.

25k pdef, 16k+ hp, and 84 def level casters are ridiculously impossible for me to kill but I keep running into them. More and more each day as gear improves. They're always buffed because they never die and lose them. Even worse if they have bramble.

Still, even the sturdiest trees can be chopped down with enough axe swings. But these trees don't stand still for you to chop at them.

Its a huge problem for me not being able to keep them in range or stunned long enough to charm bipass. Anytime I get close they get purified and run away so they can get a charm tick, let their skills cooldown, build chi, or just start range attacking me.

This is mostly a Q.q thread but I'm hoping some productive knowledge comes from it. The few techinques I've tried to implement are use of seals during their channeling (we have one seal...), Blade Hurl to unequip their weapon for 6 seconds, chi suppresion to keep them from sparking on me or using 2 spark skills, and I've even started to approach killing them like killing a catabarb. I try to purge them with a purify pole and I try to HF/TM combo. Many archers and BMs are incredibly frustrated by HFing or Blood Vowing and the very next attack purges our curse off them.

So, what are your techniques?

Oh so people actually have those now?

There's nothing you can do 1v1, at all aside from utterly breaking the RNG with back to back to back zerk crits.

I suggest giving up.