So, a popular theory possibly incorrect?

Geshwur - Raging Tide

Well. To start, out of curiosity, I calculated the difference in AVERAGE DPS between my R9RR daggers +8 vs T3 Nirvy +11

Using the formula : [(Max + Min)/2] x [1+(attack levels/100)] x [1+(Crit/100)x(1+{[rage damage/100]-1}] x APS x weapon effect.

I gave both 20% average from Demon Wolf Emblem (40% extra rage damage half of the time)

R9RR : 19805.5 x (1.43x1.2) x1.91 x 4.0 x 1.2 = 311,585.83


T3 Nirvana : 22161 x (1.38x1.2) x 1.73 x 5 = 317,443.028


HOWEVER

I have noticed a CONSIDERABLE amount of difference in DPS, in favor of R9RR. And I don't mean sometimes, I mean consistently.



So, I have two theories to what could cause this:

1. Not necessarily that the calculations for GoF were incorrect, so much as that the idea that it's the same for every weapon may be inaccurate. Possibly it is programmed per weapon, not per the add itself, and as opposed to the 20% rate recorded, some weapons such as R9RR may have 25 or even 30%.

This however, seems unlikely.

2. My other theory is that possibly some bosses DO have defense levels, which for a long time has been thought to be untrue, however, IDK if any testing has been done to prove either way.

Example, say a boss has 30 defense levels.


Using the formula above, subtracting 30 from the attack levels of each:

R9RR :262,645.647
T3 Nirvy : 262,395.104

That alone shows that the idea of bosses having defense levels can SERIOUSLY impact DPS (Say a boss has 50 defense levels, and nobody has noticed, thinking that it's just got a lot of defense, not knowing any different having never looked too deep into it)

In my head, my theories seem sound, I'm looking for others insight, knowing that SOMEONE is BOUND to have done testing to prove that they DON'T really have defense levels.

Feel free to shoot holes in my theories, as long as you provide reasonable evidence to contradict them.b:pleased

Geshwur - Raging Tide

BTW, Before anyone asks, yes, the T3 Nirvy the calculations are based on have pretty OP ads (40 attack levels,+13 max phys damage, +1 crit and -.05 interval) and the R9RR are about mid range ads (58 attack levels, 5% crit, 11 dex + Non variables)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »

Using the formula : [(Max + Min)/2] x [1+(attack levels/100)] x [1+(Crit/100)x(1+{[rage damage/100]-1}] x APS x weapon effect.

I gave both 20% average from Demon Wolf Emblem (40% extra rage damage half of the time)

R9RR : 19805.5 x (1.43x1.2) x1.91 x 4.0 x 1.2 = 311,585.83

T3 Nirvana : 22161 x (1.38x1.2) x 1.73 x 5 = 317,443.028

Your numbers are wrong, for one. Crit multiplier should be (1+0.2*crit). With that in mind, we get

19805.5*(1+ 0.43*1.2) * 1.91 * 4 * 1.2 * 0.95 = 261,506
22161*(1+0.38*1.2) * 1.73 * 5 * 0.95 = 265,149

I have noticed a CONSIDERABLE amount of difference in DPS, in favor of R9RR. And I don't mean sometimes, I mean consistently.

I'm not a great believer in anecdotal evidence, as most of them belong into the field of daily experiences, with no controlling of the situation.

What the heck do you mean with "considerable"? How did you observe it? Where did your observe it?

I find it slightly ****ed up in the head that you take not one, not two, but three averages, multiply them together and then expect that it reflects your reality in an accurate, meaningful manner. Unless you're whacking some mother****er for quite some time, the average is going to be very, very inaccurate. The average is literally what would happen if you stood there, whacking moles for all freaking eternity. With some luck, it would only take a bit less.

It's exactly for situations like this that I sometimes get the urge to write a code to simulate the whole situation.

Also, as Saku points out, the "popular theory" is that R9RR is better than T3 with equal refines.

Finally, the best in-game way to test for DPS would be to go to Ancient Sea Dragon and whack away.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well. To start, out of curiosity, I calculated the difference in AVERAGE DPS between my R9RR daggers +8 vs T3 Nirvy +11

Are you saying you compared +11 daggers to +8 daggers and are suprised to find out the +11 daggers did 1.5% more? Or were you comparing R9t3 with Vana t3 and equal refines?

Not so sure the theory that R9t3 and Vana t3 are similar dps is that incredulous a theory. There was another thread where someone asked how much more r9r kicks the **** out of Vana t3 and we showed in there that Vana G16s out dd r9r and deal almost as much dps as r9t3 (when comparing 4 aps vs 5 aps). Vana daggers refine better, and both crit and attack levels have diminishing returns. You might get +60 attack levels on r9 but that may only represent a 40% dph increase. When endgame sins are walking around with 40% crit, 100+ attack level, and 600+ dex the biggest bonus is the dex multiplier combining with high weapon refines.

That's not the point of r9t3 daggers though. R9r has range, crit, GoF, and attack levels. Meaning insane average dph and insane potential dph, as well as the convenience of range. They far excel in pvp while they're simply on par in pve.

As for the GoF proc rate being per weapon type, that may be possible. I know the archer forums talk about the difference in purge proc rate beween Lunar bows, g13, and G15 bows.

soundslegit

Zerk crits?

Empu - Sanctuary

@OP : I don't think the proc rate of GoF has ever been really confirmed (by someone looking in the codes or something). As fare as I know, there are only assumptions based on ingame recording, which is very unreliable for many obvious reasons. If you feel like your +8 r999 do better then your G16 +11, then stick with them. Who cares if it's just perception, reality based on your "luck" in proc/crit rate or mathematically prooven.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your numbers are wrong, for one.

Funnily, his formula was correct b:laugh It was just overly complicated.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I find it slightly ****ed up in the head that you take not one, not two, but three averages, multiply them together and then expect that it reflects your reality in an accurate, meaningful manner. Unless you're whacking some mother****er for quite some time, the average is going to be very, very inaccurate. The average is literally what would happen if you stood there, whacking moles for all freaking eternity. With some luck, it would only take a bit less.

*\o/*
Times evolve. This can be said now without being considered an idiot, troll and start flaming over 5+ pages. *nostalgia* b:chuckle

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Funnily, his formula was correct b:laugh It was just overly complicated.

Actually, I think it's the opposite, since he wrote the Wolf Emblem multiplier as (1.43x1.2).

*\o/*
Times evolve. This can be said now without being considered an idiot, troll and start flaming over 5+ pages. *nostalgia* b:chuckle

Well, I dunno about times. Generally, when you get a reputation, you start being able to say whatever. Sadly, a lot of times that results in mistakes being passed through because there's no one left to scrutinize the work.