Quick Mathematics on Sacrifical Slash

Sympathi - Archosaur

Now im not sure about everyone else but 'Sacrificial Slash' from the Order of the Shroud is the most exciting skill to me launched for seekers from this expansion, here's the book and skill information;

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8485/20120217015321.jpg

Now this may seem like a big trade-off, but this skill comes as a buff and a debuff, much like fortify on genies. This means the defense reduction can be bounced to a target via Quid Pro Quo.

Now lets look at the use of this skill with typical builds:

Note 1: I am including the QPQ defense debuff as attack levels (assuming you follow through on the same target) as it represents exactly the same values and this is to measure Seekers new dd Output.

Note 2: O'Malleys blessing works best (statically) with these builds, the difference after using Sacrificial Slash is with O'Malleys you will gain +9 ATK whilst Keeping +15 Defense (so O'Malleys values are +24 ATK +15 DEF when using this skill) vs +30 ATK flat from jones.

Sage Adrenal Numbness: +35 DEF
Bladed Fervor: +3 ATK +1 DEF
Cube Necklace: +1 ATK +1 DEF
O'Malleys Blessing: +15 ATK +15 DEF

Total Adds: 19 ATK, 52 DEF

Rank 8 Seeker:
Before: 19 Attack / 52 Defense
After: 50.2 Attack / 52 Defense
+31.2% Damage Output

Rank 9 Ring & Weapon (+30 attack, +5 defense) Seeker:
Before: 49 Attack / 57 Defense
After: 83.2 Attack / 57 Defense
+34.2% Damage Output

Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape (+58 attack, +25 defense) Seeker:
Before: 77 Attack / 77 Defense
After: 123.2 Attack / 77 Defense
+46.2% Damage Output

Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape JoSD (+58 attack, +73 defense) Seeker:
Before: 77 Attack / 125 Defense
After: 152 Attack / 125 Defense
+75% Damage Output

Maximum attack level gain with jones blessing:
Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape JoSD (+73 attack, +58 defense) Seeker:
Before: 92 Attack / 110 Defense
After: 152 Attack / 110 Defense
+60% Damage Output


Time to buy them JoSD's you've been putting off all this time everyone? xD

Sympathi - Archosaur

One final one for Max Attack level with no regards to Defense:

Full Rank 9 Set: +63 ATK +25 DEF
Nirvana Helm and Cape: +5 ATK
Jones Blessing: +30 ATK
Full Diamond of Tigers: +24 ATK
Bladed Fervor: +3 ATK +1 DEF
Adrenal Numbness: +35 DEF
G16 Cube Neck: +5 ATK +5 DEF
Sky Cover Ring: +2 ATK

Total Before: +132 ATK, 66 DEF
Total After: +171.6 ATK, +66 DEF
+39.6% Damage Output

Add Frenzy/ Enrage to that, that puts a maximum possible output of 191.6 Attack Levels b:surrender

Kalish - Lost City

quick hide this before all the fail sins who think the aps "nerf" means the sky is falling and roll a Seeker as the new fotm.

Sympathi - Archosaur

Kalish - Lost City wrote: »

quick hide this before all the fail sins who think the aps "nerf" means the sky is falling and roll a Seeker as the new fotm.

R9 Full APS is the PK style, least on Archosaur. Max APS 2.86. Kicks ur ***. b:surrender

EnDeavor - Lothranis

Note 1: I am including the QPQ defense debuff as attack levels (assuming you follow through on the same target) as it represents exactly the same values and this is to measure Seekers new dd Output.

I maybe missed something but I though that china had fixed the def lvl debuff to be not removable b:surrender

Sympathi - Archosaur

EnDeavor - Lothranis wrote: »

I maybe missed something but I though that china had fixed the def lvl debuff to be not removable b:surrender

As far as i can tell it hasn't, its remained QPQable in all the renditions I've seen as well as all the translations Bubbles and Asterelle have provided.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Sympathi - Archosaur wrote: »

Now im not sure about everyone else but 'Sacrificial Slash' from the Order of the Shroud is the most exciting skill to me launched for seekers from this expansion, here's the book and skill information;

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8485/20120217015321.jpg

Now this may seem like a big trade-off, but this skill comes as a buff and a debuff, much like fortify on genies. This means the defense reduction can be bounced to a target via Quid Pro Quo.

Now lets look at the use of this skill with typical builds:

Note 1: I am including the QPQ defense debuff as attack levels (assuming you follow through on the same target) as it represents exactly the same values and this is to measure Seekers new dd Output.

Note 2: O'Malleys blessing works best (statically) with these builds, the difference after using Sacrificial Slash is with O'Malleys you will gain +9 ATK whilst Keeping +15 Defense (so O'Malleys values are +24 ATK +15 DEF when using this skill) vs +30 ATK flat from jones.

Sage Adrenal Numbness: +35 DEF
Bladed Fervor: +3 ATK +1 DEF
Cube Necklace: +1 ATK +1 DEF
O'Malleys Blessing: +15 ATK +15 DEF

Total Adds: 19 ATK, 52 DEF

Rank 8 Seeker:
Before: 19 Attack / 52 Defense
After: 50.2 Attack / 52 Defense
+164.2% Damage Increase.

Rank 9 Ring & Weapon (+30 attack, +5 defense) Seeker:
Before: 49 Attack / 57 Defense
After: 83.2 Attack / 57 Defense
+69.8% Damage Increase.

Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape (+58 attack, +25 defense) Seeker:
Before: 77 Attack / 77 Defense
After: 123.2 Attack / 77 Defense
+60% Damage Increase.

Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape JoSD (+58 attack, +73 defense) Seeker:
Before: 77 Attack / 125 Defense
After: 152 Attack / 125 Defense
+97.4% Damage Increase.

Maximum attack level gain with jones blessing:
Full Rank 9, Nirvana Helm & Cape JoSD (+73 attack, +58 defense) Seeker:
Before: 92 Attack / 110 Defense
After: 152 Attack / 110 Defense
+65.2% Damage Increase.

Time to buy them JoSD's you've been putting off all this time everyone? xD

Nice post

However I suspect you're making a couple of assumptions here with the main one being the type of debuff being transferred. What I'm saying is that when you QPQ the defense level debuff, it may very well recalculate the defense lvl reduction your opponent suffers based on his defense levels rather than your own. That is... it re-applies the 40% debuff calculator to whatever defense lvls the other guy has while allowing you to keep the 50% positive attack levels calculated on your own initial defense lvl reduction.

So basically (and again using each opponent's defense lvl reduced as = to an extra attack level for the debuffing Seeker) you would see little damage increase if used against the typical jones wearing Sin since there won't be any defense levels to reduce. On the other hand if used against a full JoSD R9 psychic in white voodoo, the defense levels reduced would be huge (40+ levels) thus creating a much larger increase in damage for the Seeker.

In a nutshell... any total damage increase this skill gives when QPQing the defense debuff may in fact be influenced by the number of defense levels the other guy has, rather than our own.

The only wild card for me is the stipulation that the debuff will reduce defense levels by at least 20. But again what happens if your opponent has no defense levels... does it go into negative territory instead ?

To be honest I hope I'm wrong (and you're right ) but until we see how the skill works for sure, I think it might be best to be cautious about how much of a benefit this skill will actually be. b:surrender

Sympathi - Archosaur

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nice post

However I suspect you're making a couple of assumptions here with the main one being the type of debuff being transferred. What I'm saying is that when you QPQ the defense level debuff, it may very well recalculate the defense lvl reduction your opponent suffers based on his defense levels rather than your own. That is... it re-applies the 40% debuff calculator to whatever defense lvls the other guy has while allowing you to keep the 50% positive attack levels calculated on your own initial defense lvl reduction.

So basically (and again using each opponent's defense lvl reduced as = to an extra attack level for the debuffing Seeker) you would see little damage increase if used against the typical jones wearing Sin since there won't be any defense levels to reduce. On the other hand if used against a full JoSD R9 psychic in white voodoo, the defense levels reduced would be huge (40+ levels) thus creating a much larger increase in damage for the Seeker.

In a nutshell... any total damage increase this skill gives when QPQing the defense debuff may in fact be influenced by the number of defense levels the other guy has, rather than our own.

The only wild card for me is the stipulation that the debuff will reduce defense levels by at least 20. But again what happens if your opponent has no defense levels... does it go into negative territory instead ?

To be honest I hope I'm wrong (and you're right ) but until we see how the skill works for sure, I think it might be best to be cautious about how much of a benefit this skill will actually be. b:surrender

Hmmm thats a good point but i was thinking more along the current style of PW-Buffs there's no altering % skills so i would assume, you use the skill, the skill calculates how much DEF you will drop, then how much ATK you would gain and apply them 2 values as the debuff and the buff.

But i could be completely wrong, and even if i am my top example would still be;

Total Before: 132 ATK, 66 DEF
Total After: 145.6 ATK (Plus 20 - 40), 66 DEF

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Sympathi - Archosaur wrote: »

Hmmm thats a good point but i was thinking more along the current style of PW-Buffs there's no altering % skills so i would assume, you use the skill, the skill calculates how much DEF you will drop, then how much ATK you would gain and apply them 2 values as the debuff and the buff.

But i could be completely wrong, and even if i am my top example would still be;

Total Before: 132 ATK, 66 DEF
Total After: 145.6 ATK (Plus 20 - 40), 66 DEF

I see your point, but looking at the new class skills for everyone as a whole, I don't get the impression that any damage increasing skill has been as generous as what you're proposing for Seekers. To give a R8 Seeker (using the example in your opening post) over 160% damage increase over 16 seconds just doesn't seem like what the developers had in mind. But again... could be wrong.

EnDeavor - Lothranis

To give a R8 Seeker (using the example in your opening post) over 160% damage increase over 16 seconds just doesn't seem like what the developers had in mind. But again... could be wrong.

Considering what has been done before, that would still be possible.
Pw mechanics usually doesn't "live" recalculate stats when applying buff/debuff, but your theory is very interesting.

Beside that, Sympathi announced that health debuff couldn't be QpQed anymore, so it seems that devs started to think more about QpQ balance issues.

Oh and, in case you haven't noticed, in nirv you can now soul shatter all boss b:dirty

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

EnDeavor - Lothranis wrote: »

Considering what has been done before, that would still be possible.
Pw mechanics usually doesn't "live" recalculate stats when applying buff/debuff, but your theory is very interesting.

Well we can sort this out very quickly if anyone knows how the debuff calculator treats the QPQ of the magic defense debuff for genie skill fortify. I know it's not an identical example to the Sacrificial Slash one above but fortify still gives a positive buff and a negative one that calculates the debuff based on a percentage (50% I think ?).

So when a Seeker triggers fortify to get out of a stun and simultaneously QPQs the reduce mag defense debuff on to the BM... does the BM's magic defense go down by a flat 50% or does it fall by the exact amount the Seeker's mag defense fell by prior to transfer ?

Sympathi - Archosaur

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I see your point, but looking at the new class skills for everyone as a whole, I don't get the impression that any damage increasing skill has been as generous as what you're proposing for Seekers. To give a R8 Seeker (using the example in your opening post) over 160% damage increase over 16 seconds just doesn't seem like what the developers had in mind. But again... could be wrong.

Its 160% figure is high but remember thats based on a low ATK (19) anyway only boosting it by 31.2 Attack Levels. I suppose the % figures is misleading abit ill redo them to show the amount of attack levels (and therefor actual % boost) you gain.

EnDeavor - Lothranis wrote: »

Beside that, Sympathi announced that health debuff couldn't be QpQed anymore, so it seems that devs started to think more about QpQ balance issues.

Oh and, in case you haven't noticed, in nirv you can now soul shatter all boss b:dirty

Speaking about Quid Pro Quoing and Nirvana runs b:laugh

EnDeavor - Lothranis

Speaking about Quid Pro Quoing and Nirvana runs

holy shot b:shockedb:laugh

supertroyman1

if u can QPQ the def lvl reduction of that skill then a bm/bm/seeker/sin/sin/sin squad would be the scariest thing ive ever seen

Sympathi - Archosaur

supertroyman1 wrote: »

if u can QPQ the def lvl reduction of that skill then a bm/bm/seeker/sin/sin/sin squad would be the scariest thing ive ever seen

I'm assuming the ATK and DEF adjustments will be the same style Buff/ Debuff as Soulsever Minuets debuff icons, and that type of minus DEF us QPQable.

ApollyonHell - Archosaur

i think am missing something here,plz some one explain..
the skill description says : *reduce your def lvl by 40% while increasing your atk lvlby 50% of reduced def lvl*

so if am right at 100 def lvl we we only getting 20 extra atl lvl (50% of the 40 def lvl that were reduced)

i really hope am wrong

sorry for my bad English , but i hope you got the point b:surrender

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

ApollyonHell - Archosaur wrote: »

i think am missing something here,plz some one explain..
the skill description says : *reduce your def lvl by 40% while increasing your atk lvlby 50% of reduced def lvl*

so if am right at 100 def lvl we we only getting 20 extra atl lvl (50% of the 40 def lvl that were reduced)

i really hope am wrong

sorry for my bad English , but i hope you got the point b:surrender

Yeah... you're correct, which is why my interest in this skill has waned slightly since the skill description became clearer (recent translations from Chinese site had it increasing attack by 50% while decreasing defense by 40% without any interaction between the buff and debuff).

Everything hinges really on Seekers being allowed to QPQ the defense debuff and how exactly the mechanics of the debuff will affect the target's defense levels. If we can QPQ the debuff, then the skill has some potential due to each defense level reduced on our opponent being the equivalent of one attack level gained for us... which of course translates into extra damage for Seekers. So it just depends on exactly how much defense levels we'll be taking away from our opponent during transfer of debuff.

I'm still working towards the skill however (joined shroud order and am doing my daily and weekly quests). But I'll probably hold off from spending my influence and prestige points on it until the reviews of the skill from those who already have it come in.

CatManDoo - Dreamweaver

So how is this skill actually working ?

like if u switch blessing after using skill does it change buff calculations or smthing.?

does transferred debuff stacks with other def lvl reducing debuffs?

also is u transfer debuff, does it transfers ur def lvl reduce or reduces opponents def lvls by 40%?

supertroyman1

CatManDoo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So how is this skill actually working ?

like if u switch blessing after using skill does it change buff calculations or smthing.?

does transferred debuff stacks with other def lvl reducing debuffs?

also is u transfer debuff, does it transfers ur def lvl reduce or reduces opponents def lvls by 40%?

i think if u switch blessings before qpqing it it changes the calculations.
i think itll override the current def lvl debuff on whatever u hit. and if u qpq it it will reduce there def lvls by the same number u lost.

havent been doing exstensive testing on this skill.

CatManDoo - Dreamweaver

so if i want to maximize my damage i have to go for JOSD-s:),

and are those formulas correct:
new attack lvl = previous attack lvl + 0,5*0,4*previous def lvl
new def lvl = 0,6*previous def lvl

?

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

CatManDoo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So how is this skill actually working ?

like if u switch blessing after using skill does it change buff calculations or smthing.?

does transferred debuff stacks with other def lvl reducing debuffs?

also is u transfer debuff, does it transfers ur def lvl reduce or reduces opponents def lvls by 40%?

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1333311

Necro... by the way.