Is there any way to calculate this?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

So I've been wondering if I should restat for 50 vit. It would be a cheap 500 hp (compared to refining that is)

So I'm just wondering, will 45 less points in mag make that big a difference in my PvP damage?
Because if it's going to be the difference between me being able to finish off someone with BIDS/BT, then it's obviously not worth it.

Evict - Heavens Tear

PWCalc your build as is, record your M-Atk, change the build to reflect 45 vit and record the M-Atk multiply the difference by the amount of your skills (BIDS = 500%) and that's how much damage you're losing out on. The amount might seem minuscule when unsparked, but it's pretty hefty when you're triple sparked.

Adroit - Lost City

I dunno what Evict is talking about.. but you can basically just check the matk difference on pwcalc if you wanted to (I'd say bring it to 53vit base.. I don't know where the 45 came from).. and then just look at how the damage of a skill is calculated. Every skill tells you how the damage is calculated, it's usually a weapon multiplier + static damage + magic attack. What you'll probably notice when calculating different skills is that nearly every skill (besides BT) will decrease by the same number amount.. but different skills will feel that differently. So a skill like gush that has a small weapon multiplier and small static damage will feel the impact of your loss in magic attack more than say.. BIDS with a high weapon multiplier and static damage (at least percentage wise).

I think adding vit early game makes alot more sense than end game because early game.. you get more of your damage from the weapon multiplier and static damage than magic attack, and you don't get as much hp from gear. As you approach end game, it basically flip flops where mag atk is a very significant part of your overall damage, and that 500 hp doesn't seem like as much (2k hp + 500 is alot.. 6k hp + 500 is meh..)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I dunno what Evict is talking about.. but you can basically just check the matk difference on pwcalc if you wanted to (I'd say bring it to 53vit base.. I don't know where the 45 came from).. and then just look at how the damage of a skill is calculated. Every skill tells you how the damage is calculated, it's usually a weapon multiplier + static damage + magic attack. What you'll probably notice when calculating different skills is that nearly every skill (besides BT) will decrease by the same number amount.. but different skills will feel that differently. So a skill like gush that has a small weapon multiplier and small static damage will feel the impact of your loss in magic attack more than say.. BIDS with a high weapon multiplier and static damage (at least percentage wise).

I think adding vit early game makes alot more sense than end game because early game.. you get more of your damage from the weapon multiplier and static damage than magic attack, and you don't get as much hp from gear. As you approach end game, it basically flip flops where mag atk is a very significant part of your overall damage, and that 500 hp doesn't seem like as much (2k hp + 500 is alot.. 6k hp + 500 is meh..)

He was talking about going from 5 vit to 50 vit. That's where the 45 came from. And what evict was explaining was how to calculate skill damage since everything a wizard does is their Mattack x (skill).

However, a intermediate reset note = 5 gold. Gold on my server is selling for 1.4 mil, so about 7 mil for a reset note to get you your 45 vit or 450 hp. If you do go more max at 53 vitality so that when you reset back you can go down to 3 vitality as Adroit pointed out. Okay, so 7 mil to gain 450hp + 7 mil to ungain it = 14 mil round trip for 450 temporary hp. I would ask is there anything you can refine first?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Well all my gear is already +5 or higher atm. Also, AA gives pretty crappy hp from refines.

But I was just wondering if there might be somebody out there that's tried this and can tell me if the difference is that signifigant.

I mean if somebody said getting 50 vit would only make your gush hit for 100 less, or your bids for 300 less, then I would consider it.

And I'm happy I asked here first, rather than testing it myself and realizing I need to buy enough reset notes to undue it lol.

Adroit - Lost City

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

He was talking about going from 5 vit to 50 vit. That's where the 45 came from. And what evict was explaining was how to calculate skill damage since everything a wizard does is their Mattack x (skill).

However, a intermediate reset note = 5 gold. Gold on my server is selling for 1.4 mil, so about 7 mil for a reset note to get you your 45 vit or 450 hp. If you do go more max at 53 vitality so that when you reset back you can go down to 3 vitality as Adroit pointed out. Okay, so 7 mil to gain 450hp + 7 mil to ungain it = 14 mil round trip for 450 temporary hp. I would ask is there anything you can refine first?

What makes you think magic atk is multiplied to skill damage? And the 50 that everyone talks about comes from the amount of an intermediate reset note.. so if you ever stat it out you can do it with one note. It should be 48 points (480 hp) to get to 53 vit that we sould be talking about.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well all my gear is already +5 or higher atm. Also, AA gives pretty crappy hp from refines.

But I was just wondering if there might be somebody out there that's tried this and can tell me if the difference is that signifigant.

I mean if somebody said getting 50 vit would only make your gush hit for 100 less, or your bids for 300 less, then I would consider it.

And I'm happy I asked here first, rather than testing it myself and realizing I need to buy enough reset notes to undue it lol.

I've had 53 base vit since I restatted from LA to AA at lvl 90. Its been on my list to stat out for a while, but I still have it in. It doesn't like cripple my damage, but I've always liked the idea of pure int. Dunno if that helps at all, but ya :P

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide

well since no high level is gonna give a proper answer and the op is too lazy to use the pw calculator, I guess I'll have to do it b:cool shame on you high levels, shame on you! b:chuckle

The base magic attack is calculated in this way (without considering buffs and such):

base damage = attack multiplier x weapon attack

being:

attack multiplier = (1 + mag points/100), and: weapon attack = level + weapon's magic attack

therefore:

base damage = (level + weapon's magic attack) x (1 + mag/100)

if you want to compare two different builds, with the same weapon (and the same level b:chuckle) you have to do this:

base dmg (vit) / base dmg (pure) = [100 + mag(vit)] / [100 + mag(pure)]

I don't know your stats and i don't want to complicate things so I'm gonna put the worst case:

Without any equipment mag bonus, considering 5 vit for pure and 53 for vit, with enough strenght to hold the rank 8 weap and everything else on mag:

dmg(vit)/dmg(pure) = (100 + 407) / (100 + 455) = 0.9135

your base damage with the "vit" build is 91.35 % of the "pure" base damage (the difference is less noticeable if you consider the eq adds).

your damage output is less affected because the damage you deal is = base dmg + skill weapon attack modifier + constant skill damage.

For instance:

sage gush: base dmg + 100 % of weapon damage + 3390

sage gush (vit) = 7890 + 1346 + 3390 = 12626 (avg)

sage gush (pure) = 8615 + 1346 + 3390 = 13351 (avg)

the "vit" gush hits for the 94.56 % of the "pure" gush (again the difference is not that much if you consider the eq stats)

ok now, what all this math proves? I don't know.

Is this the right way to calculate it? I'm not sure.

Why do I bother with this in the first place? I'm bored b:chuckle


enjoy!

Adroit - Lost City

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide wrote: »

well since no high level is gonna give a proper answer and the op is too lazy to use the pw calculator, I guess I'll have to do it b:cool shame on you high levels, shame on you! b:chuckle

The base magic attack is calculated in this way (without considering buffs and such):

base damage = attack multiplier x weapon attack

being:

attack multiplier = (1 + mag points/100), and: weapon attack = level + weapon's magic attack

therefore:

base damage = (level + weapon's magic attack) x (1 + mag/100)

if you want to compare two different builds, with the same weapon (and the same level b:chuckle) you have to do this:

base dmg (vit) / base dmg (pure) = [100 + mag(vit)] / [100 + mag(pure)]

I don't know your stats and i don't want to complicate things so I'm gonna put the worst case:

Without any equipment mag bonus, considering 5 vit for pure and 53 for vit, with enough strenght to hold the rank 8 weap and everything else on mag:

dmg(vit)/dmg(pure) = (100 + 407) / (100 + 455) = 0.9135

your base damage with the "vit" build is 91.35 % of the "pure" base damage (the difference is less noticeable if you consider the eq adds).

your damage output is less affected because the damage you deal is = base dmg + skill weapon attack modifier + constant skill damage.

For instance:

sage gush: base dmg + 100 % of weapon damage + 3390

sage gush (vit) = 7890 + 1346 + 3390 = 12626 (avg)

sage gush (pure) = 8615 + 1346 + 3390 = 13351 (avg)

the "vit" gush hits for the 94.56 % of the "pure" gush (again the difference is not that much if you consider the eq stats)

ok now, what all this math proves? I don't know.

Is this the right way to calculate it? I'm not sure.

Why do I bother with this in the first place? I'm bored b:chuckle


enjoy!

If you are going to talk math, it'd be nice if you mentioned where you got those numbers. What gear were you running the numbers with (i.e. weapon with refine/shards + rings + anything else that gives +matk).

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

If you are going to talk math, it'd be nice if you mentioned where you got those numbers. What gear were you running the numbers with (i.e. weapon with refine/shards + rings + anything else that gives +matk).

I said that the calculation was without considering any equipment bonus = no shards, refines +matk, or anything, just a clean nature talker. That's the worst case: any bonus that increases the mag points (or matk) will decrease the %difference between one build and another.

(actually I might slip in the bonuses from the weap on the gush example but... b:quiet )

I'm just showing a possible way to calculate it, i don't have any data to do more (and I'm not going to make asumptions).

I promise I'm not gonna make another math-ish attempt.

cya b:pleased

Adroit - Lost City

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide wrote: »

I said that the calculation was without considering any equipment bonus = no shards, refines +matk, or anything, just a clean nature talker. That's the worst case: any bonus that increases the mag points (or matk) will decrease the %difference between one build and another.

(actually I might slip in the bonuses from the weap on the gush example but... b:quiet )

I'm just showing a possible way to calculate it, i don't have any data to do more (and I'm not going to make asumptions).

I promise I'm not gonna make another math-ish attempt.

cya b:pleased

What you should have probably done was to just ask for dakillinator's current pwcalc and used realistic numbers when you are doing the math. If you were able to tell him that his gush would do some % more or less damage.. and BIDS would get some different % difference etc.. that could be really useful. I wouldn't shy away from using math, but use meaningful numbers.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver

Well the difference in DMG is one part but you also will lose max mana. The idea in general is not bad becaus with 500 hp more you can get away with lower refinements to reach a good amount of hp.

greetz harm0wnie

Adroit - Lost City

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well the difference in DMG is one part but you also will lose max mana. The idea in general is not bad becaus with 500 hp more you can get away with lower refinements to reach a good amount of hp.

greetz harm0wnie

You've got to be kidding. You mention mana pool as if it is even somewhat important. Just stop, this is not one of your pve threads.

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

What you should have probably done was to just ask for dakillinator's current pwcalc and used realistic numbers when you are doing the math. If you were able to tell him that his gush would do some % more or less damage.. and BIDS would get some different % difference etc.. that could be really useful. I wouldn't shy away from using math, but use meaningful numbers.

All right, lets buckle down and work

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

I think i smell an archer in disguise

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but you also will lose max mana.

...really?

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

I think i smell an archer in disguise

b:laugh Let's just say that considering my irl "field of study" I should do it even better b:surrender

If Daki post more info I can make a more accurate calculation.

The thing that troubles me is this:

If 50 mag points don't make the difference what's the deal with the tomes, I mean they are really expensive (to me at least) and the higher one gives you only 25 mag points? or what about that crazy people (crazy, I tell you) that use a reset note to decrease their vit to 3 just to gain two crappy points?

One of two: Or the mag points really makes the difference at end game or the obsession about mag points is just based on a myth.

cya!

Adroit - Lost City

Fulcanelli - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:laugh Let's just say that considering my irl "field of study" I should do it even better b:surrender

If Daki post more info I can make a more accurate calculation.

The thing that troubles me is this:

If 50 mag points don't make the difference what's the deal with the tomes, I mean they are really expensive (to me at least) and the higher one gives you only 25 mag points? or what about that crazy people (crazy, I tell you) that use a reset note to decrease their vit to 3 just to gain two crappy points?

One of two: Or the mag points really makes the difference at end game or the obsession about mag points is just based on a myth.

cya!

Magic points are used as a multiplier for base magic attack. So early game when you don't have much magic attack anyway.. the magic points don't make that huge a difference. At end game where magic attack provides a majority of the skill damage, they become a big deal. Same goes with vit.. early game that 500 hp is alot, end game 500 hp is hardly worth mentioning. So early game it doesn't hurt to switch out some magic for vit, but as you get closer to end game the extra stats would be far more useful in magic.

So when somebody is saying those points aren't a big deal, they are probably assuming bad gear. The opposite probably holds true for end game gear. And for people like me that start with 5 vit (well everyone does) but decide to add in some vit w/ an intermediate reset note.. I just made sure to put in 53, that way when I got to the point where I wouldn't need vit anymore.. I could take it down to the minimum of 3 with just one note. I don't think it is really worth using a reset note to go from 5 to 3, but some people are perfectionists and think it is a worthy investment (more to satisfy their emotions than a practical use of coin). Besides, the closer you get to end game the more money you'll be dealing with.. the 5 gold for a reset note will be almost nothing compared to the hundreds or thousands of gold invested in gear to compete in end game pvp.