Question concerning rank gear (8 and 9)

Aeyris - Sanctuary

I'm looking to save money. I am eventually planning to go full rank 9, but it's going to take me a very long time (hopefully they won't pull a fast one and come out with rank 10 any time soon -.-). I am currently rank 8 with a mixture of TT99. I'm wondering if in the meantime would be worth it to fully refine my rank 8 (currently most of my armor is +5 or +6)? I know rank 8 doesn't have the fancy stats of rank 9, but would it be worth spending the money and coin on refining them while I also save for rank 9? (yay for rephrasing questions)

In another direction, how much of an advantage/disadvantage would I be in if I had fully refined rank 8 with a rank 9 weapon and ring? Or even with my current weapon (TT99 Inferno Heaven Ravenger +6)?

I'm just curious. Thoughts? Questions? Advice?

Extra info: I'm interested in PvP (TW and outside of TW).

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

How you get the money. Real cash? In game coins?
What rank 9 pieces you want first exactly? All rank 9 pieces at once or one by one?
Do you play with this char regulary or only for TW?
How much time would you think you will need to get all coins for each rank 9 piece?

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Well, anything you invest in refining the rank stuff is lost when you upgrade.

So how much is the extra damage/hp worth to you? How long will you be taking advantage of it? Is there anything it will allow you to do now that you can't already do?

I very much doubt that refining beyond, say, +4, would be cost-effective in terms of letting you grind out coin fast enough to make up for what it would cost.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Rank 9? Saving money? Wut?

Even worse than this, don't ever expect them to not come out with something better. They specifically design their cash shop and their system of gear so that they can bring out a whole new set that people will buy and upgrade. That's how it's supposed to work. Don't expect otherwise, no game developer/publisher is this dumb.

To me veno is one of the worst classes, if not the worst, to take all the way to r8/r9, but if it's your one and only, I suppose footing the rather large bill might be worth it just by the sheer upgrade of magic damage. Even though the physical damage is also relatively high for the patakas combined with veno melee mastery, I am no fan of them (prefer magic swords) for fox form.

Personally, I'd just keep the r8 and roll another character. There's much better options to rank.

thumbs

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

To me veno is one of the worst classes, if not the worst, to take all the way to r8/r9, but if it's your one and only, I suppose footing the rather large bill might be worth it just by the sheer upgrade of magic damage.

I play veno, cleric, wizard, and assassin. Of those 4; I'm only looking to go to rank 9 with veno. Can't see any reason to with these other classes.

Hazuki_chan - Archosaur

thumbs wrote: »

I play veno, cleric, wizard, and assassin. Of those 4; I'm only looking to go to rank 9 with veno. Can't see any reason to with these other classes.

Rank 9 clerics hurt, IJS.

Aeyris - Sanctuary

I'd get the money through in-game farming and a few (probably a lot) of real life money. The pieces I'm specifically after for Rank 9 are the weapon and the ring (seeing as you have to get that one), and that would be the bare minimum.

This character is my main, I use her for everything.

Time for the ring and weapon...I'm not sure. I planned on saving until the next sale and see where it gets me.

Well Janus, you also have to look at it this way; do you see them coming out with Rank 10 any time soon? I'm not naive enough to think that this game isn't a money hungry machine lol.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

I play veno, cleric, wizard, and assassin. Of those 4; I'm only looking to go to rank 9 with veno. Can't see any reason to with these other classes.

For any of those, it isn't merely a question of rank, it's a question of why you play them, firstly. If you aren't going to TW or PVP with a wizard, why bother. If you aren't going to go all out aps for an assassin and demon, no point in going r9. Cleric actually makes sense to r9, although conversely, it would make as much sense to r9 a mystic for any circumstance. For veno.. what's the point? Your AOE's are still going to take forever to cool down, you're still going to hit slow melee with a pataka, it isn't going to make you any necessary to a squad, nor to TW or PVP. Veno's are debuffers to any squad. While everyone has their own preferences and surely something subjective can't be wrong, it's not exactly a wise idea inherently.

Aeyris - Sanctuary

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For any of those, it isn't merely a question of rank, it's a question of why you play them, firstly. If you aren't going to TW or PVP with a wizard, why bother. If you aren't going to go all out aps for an assassin and demon, no point in going r9. Cleric actually makes sense to r9, although conversely, it would make as much sense to r9 a mystic for any circumstance. For veno.. what's the point? Your AOE's are still going to take forever to cool down, you're still going to hit slow melee with a pataka, it isn't going to make you any necessary to a squad, nor to TW or PVP. Veno's are debuffers to any squad. While everyone has their own preferences and surely something subjective can't be wrong, it's not exactly a wise idea inherently.

I think the main reason to Rank 9 a veno is the same reason as almost any other class; you don't stand half a chance against those who have Rank 9 in PvP/TW if you don't. Plus a veno with full Rank 9 (refines and sharding included; for me it would be savants and JoSDs/Garnet Gems), your HP unbuffed could reach 15k. (Again, this is mainly for a vit/mag build like myself). So it isn't exactly pointless.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

I dont like to play my cleric. I love my Veno. So i got for this char rank 8 (farmed hard way) and screwed cleric. Can still do a decent job with TT90. I like my Veno more and play it more, whats wrong to prefer your favorite char over those you dont care anymore.

thumbs

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For any of those, it isn't merely a question of rank, it's a question of why you play them, firstly. If you aren't going to TW or PVP with a wizard, why bother.

-exactly. TW, PvP on a wiz for me is boring.

If you aren't going to go all out aps for an assassin and demon, no point in going r9.

4aps base sin already. Can't get better by going rank 9 can I?

Cleric actually makes sense to r9, although conversely, it would make as much sense to r9 a mystic for any circumstance.

Though I heavily ponder the DD capabilities of my cleric, I also revel in it's debuffs, buffs, and other abilities. Because of the abundance of fails in this game; I want it to be able to survive well. To survive well means compromising it's DD. If I'm not focused on DD for it: Rank 9 is pointless.

For veno.. what's the point? Your AOE's are still going to take forever to cool down, you're still going to hit slow melee with a pataka, it isn't going to make you any necessary to a squad, nor to TW or PVP.

AoE cooldown? - Not an issue. Unlike some, I know all the AoE's of my veno which include Myriad and Befuddling. My veno doesn't need near as much pdef as my wiz. It can focus more on matk instead. DPS for 1-1 on veno is @ >3x better than wiz. Under most circumstances 1-2 hits is all that's needed for veno anyway. Outside of RB circumstances: my veno pwns my wiz at AoE and even that's debatable.

I might hit slow with pataka for melee but I can kill just about as fast 1-1 as with mag (am pure mag also). My veno is loved by some of the better players and DDs better than some of the weaker 5 aps. No toon is necessary for anything. Quite a few BMs have been insulted by squad members when I get impatient and sub for them on occasion like in FF.

Veno's are debuffers to any squad. While everyone has their own preferences and surely something subjective can't be wrong, it's not exactly a wise idea inherently.

I can't think of a single class that doesn't debuff off the top of my head. When it comes to buffs/ debuffs: what about cleric!? Cleric buff boosts matk, elemental seal boosts mdmg, and sage magic shell boosts channeling. Then there's Heaven's Wrath, but demons would rather pause to erupt than Subsea Strike, Penetrate Armor, Heaven's Flame, etc. In the absence of a veno; there is Dimensional Seal. Clerics also have Silent Seal, and Chromatic Seal.

We're in a time of healers not being a necessity. Venos are no longer being primarily used as lurers. I'm pretty sure it's the cleric that is going to win on buffs/ debuffs. If people insist on Venos being only valuable for debuffs: they're going to hurt the class in general.

Some may look at venos and think Purge is nice in Nirvana, but others like me are thinking: 'how did that poor build/ equipped veno get into my 5.0 squad when some of us who've invested far more have weapons that purge'?

I don't like Claw Sins in my squad, and I don't like scab venos either. Accept it or not: Veno is DD.

arsavin666

I listened permission beforehand pembahasaan topic b:pleased

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Aizza - Harshlands wrote: »

You seem to like casters, have you tried a Mystic and would they go R9 as well, lessor or better then the other casters?

Mystics would go well as R9 when they get it.

(As far as casters go, I have a 100 cleric, 92 cleric, 100 veno, 94 veno, 100 wizard, 88 psy, 83 mystic)

Mystics do some terrible things with their AOE dmg/seals, lysing debuffs+dmg, absorb soul, bramble tornado, rez.. all very nice if you can multi-task a bunch of things at once. It's not quite as one-dimensional as a cleric or as simplified as a veno.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

We're in a time of healers not being a necessity. Venos are no longer being primarily used as lurers. I'm pretty sure it's the cleric that is going to win on buffs/ debuffs. If people insist on Venos being only valuable for debuffs: they're going to hurt the class in general.

Some may look at venos and think Purge is nice in Nirvana, but others like me are thinking: 'how did that poor build/ equipped veno get into my 5.0 squad when some of us who've invested far more have weapons that purge'?

I don't like Claw Sins in my squad, and I don't like scab venos either. Accept it or not: Veno is DD.

everything is a DD, if a veno's primary role in nirvana or TT is as a DD then you built your squad wrong. the reason **** greared venos can get into nirvana where a **** geared DD cant is that the most beneficial aspects of a veno in a nirvana squad is amp/ironwood/myriad/purge, which isnt gear dependent, its dependent on what skills you have learned. if you can dump a couple other scarabs on the bosses during cooldowns, great, but that damage is pretty negligible, nobody is adding venos to nirvana squads because they are the best DD for the spot, they do it because their debuffs are better than a 5th or 6th DD.

as one of the better venos on HT, and long time veno advocates, you must know that.

because venos have the lowest magic attack of the casters, you see the ones with r9 money r9ing other classes, namely wizards and psys. if you have a bunch of alts and like to move your gear around, r9 is a crappy choice for 2 reasons, first, it is stuck on the character you put it on, if you start to fall in love with one of your other alts, all your pro gear is going to be stuck on your r9. unless you dont mind the cost, then r9 them all. second as janus said, if there is one thing you can count on, its that another gear set will be released that will be better than r9, and the money you spent on "being the best" will be wasted.

nirvana gear, while not as good as r9 is not bound to the character you got it for, and if you get the lunar set, it isnt bound at all.

Desdi - Sanctuary

It's what SashaGray said.


(I did not count stuns, silences, freezes, slow because those debuffs are useless against bosses)
Clerics: have a magical defence and a physical defence reduction of 30% 20s(40% for lvl11)

Wizards: have an accuracy reduction of 50%, have a skill to decrease Water, Fire, and Earth Resistances by 60% 12s

Archers: have a skill that reduces HP by 16% (20% for sage) 30s, have a skill that reduces Metal resistance by 50% 15s

Blademasters: have a skill that reduces physical and magical attack by 50% 10s, a skill that reduces physical and magical defence by 50% 10s, a skill that curses target to gain 100% more damage 6s

Barbarians: have a skill that reduces physical defence by 30% (lvl11 35%) 10s, a skill that reduces evasion by 50% 8s, have a skill with 20% chance to remove positive buffs, a skill that reduces attack lvl by 10 for 4s, a skill that reduces physical attack by 30% for 3s

Psychics: -

Mystics: have a trap that reduces physical and magical defences by 20% almost constantly. a magical and physical attack reduction of 20%, a 25% chance to reduces target's Wood Resistance by 15% for 6s (lvl11 demon), a 25% chance to increase damage taken by target for 9s (lvl11 demon)

Assassins: have a skill to reduct attack speed by 50% for 30s (now for the lvl11 of this skill i'm a little confused), have a skill with 25% chance to increase damage taken by 25% (lvl11 demon), have a skill that increases damage taken by 30% for 8s

Seekers: have a skill that decreases attack lvl by 20 for 8s, have a skill that reduces attack and defence lvl by 3 for 3 minutes, have skills that reduce the physical, water, wood, fire, metal, earth defences (numbers are not given but it's probably 16% according to first skill), a skill to educe metal resistances by 35% for 10s

Venomancers: have a physical defence reduction of 30% for 10s (sage: 40% for 20s, demon: 0% but 20% chance), wood resistance reduction by 30% 6s (demon), increase damage taken by 30% 8s (demon), increase damage taken by 20% for 20s (sage: 30% 20s, demon: 25% 26s), a skill that stops hp/mp regeneration for 30s (sage: reduces hp by 20%, demon: reduces evasion by 50%), a skill that reduces accuracy by 70% for 8s, a skill with 100% chance to purge positive buffs, two skills with a chance to cause 100% magical and/or physical reduction

The way I see it, the Venomancer debuffs are either stronger or last longer.


The thing people don't understand is; when classes work together and combine their debuffs then the squad will end up dealing a lot of damage (eg. heaven's flame + amplify damage + extreme poison/sin's debuff).

thumbs

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

everything is a DD, if a veno's primary role in nirvana or TT is as a DD then you built your squad wrong. the reason **** greared venos can get into nirvana where a **** geared DD cant is that the most beneficial aspects of a veno in a nirvana squad is amp/ironwood/myriad/purge, which isnt gear dependent, its dependent on what skills you have learned. if you can dump a couple other scarabs on the bosses during cooldowns, great, but that damage is pretty negligible, nobody is adding venos to nirvana squads because they are the best DD for the spot, they do it because their debuffs are better than a 5th or 6th DD.

Assassins are valuable in Nirvana for Bloodpaint, BMs for HF, Barbs for buffs; that doesn't get them in. For a good veno: The dmg is far from negligible in a typical 4.0 or lower squad especially clawn sins.

because venos have the lowest magic attack of the casters, you see the ones with r9 money r9ing other classes, namely wizards and psys.

What is the point of pointing out low magic attack? Venos spells are typically faster ch/cast. My wiz I build to tank rebirth so it's crazy weak as dd compared to veno. Hardly anyone is going to go full DoT on a cleric either.

if you have a bunch of alts and like to move your gear around, r9 is a crappy choice for 2 reasons, first, it is stuck on the character you put it on, if you start to fall in love with one of your other alts, all your pro gear is going to be stuck on your r9. unless you dont mind the cost, then r9 them all. second as janus said, if there is one thing you can count on, its that another gear set will be released that will be better than r9, and the money you spent on "being the best" will be wasted.

Good points, but they don't apply for me. My other AA's are on the other account, and cross account trading is a pain. I'll also never be the best equipped veno. I set my goals for what I can achieve w/o cash. At the moment the weapon, ring, 3 more sockets is where there's room for improvement. When better weapons/ rings come out: It will be quite a while before being obtainable for me.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

Assassins are valuable in Nirvana for Bloodpaint, BMs for HF, Barbs for buffs; that doesn't get them in.

They also do damage and have high survivability tanking bosses in Nirvana. A veno has.. what again? Amp, but also demon IW/myriad greatly help squads which is highly underrated (people only going for sage amp on world chats), nobody takes a veno for damage.. nonetheless, very few BM's with only HF will get in a random squad having no APS or less than 4, since they are one of the easiest classes to make 5.0.

For a good veno: The dmg is far from negligible in a typical 4.0 or lower squad especially clawn sins.

.. and nowadays there's little excuse not to be 4.0 or higher as a BM, archer, or sin. And claw sin? Those have disappeared since the fail days shortly after the RT expansion. It was hilarious watching idiots use Deicide claws or TT100 fists on their sins, just like it was fun arguing with a veno on this very forum who tried to act like veno's were more useful and productive than a 4.0/5.0 APS character while rolling a 4.0 sage sin at the same time, or better yet, someone who rolled a wizard at the same time yet was trying to suggest that veno's can even come close to higher AOE DPS than wizard, psychic, or archer.

What is the point of pointing out low magic attack? Venos spells are typically faster ch/cast. My wiz I build to tank rebirth so it's crazy weak as dd compared to veno. Hardly anyone is going to go full DoT on a cleric either.

You might have a point with wizards versus veno's when it comes to ulti's versus noxious, but spell for spell, veno's do not outcast psychics with their SB/AI ticky tack combo (my psychic far surpasses veno's even with -chan gear while my psy is +crit gear and does better), forget about the AOE's (psy EV/SB/RT/GS/AT combo goes well and far beyond what a veno can do, veno does not come close to a wizard's DPS even with a 3 second tick on DB) and do not even come close to DPH against a wizard's ulti's. I'm highly confused as to why you bothered with this. Veno's don't do as much damage, they cast pretty slow and have a long cooldown on things that aren't venomous scarab, and aren't useful to any squad without debuffs, as well as that no squad takes a veno for their damage anymore (used to be FF squads that would take a veno in the 80s for their debuffs and pet dmg on [?] bosses but now it's highly prevalent to find sins/BMs/archers outdamage that too at that level).

Good points, but they don't apply for me.

Good point, but generally the points you make don't apply to anyone else but you.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

Assassins are valuable in Nirvana for Bloodpaint, BMs for HF, Barbs for buffs; that doesn't get them in. For a good veno: The dmg is far from negligible in a typical 4.0 or lower squad especially clawn sins.

clerics can be valuable for purify too, but that isnt why you take them, theres a difference between primary and secondary purpose.

What is the point of pointing out low magic attack? Venos spells are typically faster ch/cast. My wiz I build to tank rebirth so it's crazy weak as dd compared to veno. Hardly anyone is going to go full DoT on a cleric either.

the point in pointing out magic attack is because were talking about the damage v. debuff roll in the squad. veno spells are faster than what? another APS DD, no, so then why take them in place of another APS? defbuffs. chi faster than a DPS, no. lending hand? who cares APSer build a spark as fast as channel/casting lending hand anyway. everyone should have cloud erupt on their nirvana genie anyway.

you built a wiz that you classify as crazy weak compared to veno and say you built it to TANK rb? that doesnt even make sense.

LOL dot cleric, how dumb would that be.

Good points, but they don't apply for me. My other AA's are on the other account, and cross account trading is a pain. I'll also never be the best equipped veno. I set my goals for what I can achieve w/o cash. At the moment the weapon, ring, 3 more sockets is where there's room for improvement. When better weapons/ rings come out: It will be quite a while before being obtainable for me.

I'd love the weapon too, but at the current cost its just not worth it, especially since the r9 set is reaching its 1 year anniversary of release, and can reasonably be presumed to be eclipsed by better gear in the near future. imo the 1b it would cost for a r9 weapon would be better spent on a couple g15 nirvana weapons that can be moved around my account

cross account trading is as easy as alt-tab. GMs have endorsed multi clienting.