R9 Daggers vs Barrier Thorn Nirvana

LeiMai - Raging Tide

Can we have a serious discussion about this, as well as the impact of Sage vs Demon for both?

How is the build different? Which daggers are most effective for each culti? What happens with R9 in PvE?

What do you have to say about PvP and each set of daggers?

Please don't start flaming anyone lol...we are all entitled to our opinions, and have a right to share them.

Krarenka - Raging Tide

Uhm , i think that if u can , 4 APS demon sparked with R9 would do much more damage then 5 APS with nirvy daggers( same refines obviously). Checking in PWI calculator, i saw that 4 APS with R 8 daggers deal more damage then 5 APS with nirvana too !! ofc R9 would be the better way (for PVE)
Same story for PvP , since u are not figting crappy bosses or mobs, ppl will attack u back, so with R9 u would kill 'em faster boosting ur victory chances.
For sages , i'd stick with Nirvana tho, cause without them u can't reach 4 APS unsparked u'd be relatively "slow" in aps !!
This is my opinion ^^

LeiMai - Raging Tide

but why does APS matter? I mean like why is 4aps automatically better than 2.86, regardless of the damage each does? I must be missing something in here..

_Leif - Lost City

4 aps vs 2.86 aps means that your 2.86 aps daggers would have to do roughly 40% more damage per hit than 4.0 daggers in order to be comparable in dps. This would be true in the case of rank 9 daggers (30 attack lvl boost alone nearly makes up for the difference), but the major factor imo is god of frenzy, which allows you to deal 4x damage on occasion.

Put it this way, any half decent sin uses power dash, which easily gets you up to 80% crit. You can almost guarantee that you will crit with this proc'd. God of Frenzy has the same proc chance as most other characters' crit rate. So, relatively speaking, when other people crit and do double damage, you crit + zerk and deal quadruple damage. Rank 9 all the way.

CritCat - Archosaur

R9>Everything

Dezto - Harshlands

These posts should answer some of your questions:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1037911

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1034341

LeiMai - Raging Tide

I read those and they didn't really help, but thanks.

How often does the proc usually happen? I've never had a weapon with one that I can recall.

What about all the stuff about how GoF will get you killed when farming TT? Theoretically speaking it doesn't seem to make sense, can someone explain it in practice?

I'm sage, so 3% BP.....3% of my normal damage is generally larger than 5% of my hp. And I have up to 8.4k buffed. Its pretty close with +5 Hitmans, when you're doing even more damage with R9 daggers....if 5% HP > 3% proc damage...wouldn't you have so much HP it wouldn't be an issue?

Ksir_ - Raging Tide

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

I read those and they didn't really help, but thanks.

How often does the proc usually happen? I've never had a weapon with one that I can recall.

What about all the stuff about how GoF will get you killed when farming TT? Theoretically speaking it doesn't seem to make sense, can someone explain it in practice?

I'm sage, so 3% BP.....3% of my normal damage is generally larger than 5% of my hp. And I have up to 8.4k buffed. Its pretty close with +5 Hitmans, when you're doing even more damage with R9 daggers....if 5% HP > 3% proc damage...wouldn't you have so much HP it wouldn't be an issue?

The proc happens about 10% of the time(normal ones usually activate 5% of the time) so theres a chance you could get it a few times in a row while your charm is on cooldown and end up being one shot by the boss.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

4 aps vs 2.86 aps means that your 2.86 aps daggers would have to do roughly 40% more damage per hit than 4.0 daggers in order to be comparable in dps. This would be true in the case of rank 9 daggers (30 attack lvl boost alone nearly makes up for the difference), but the major factor imo is god of frenzy, which allows you to deal 4x damage on occasion.

Put it this way, any half decent sin uses power dash, which easily gets you up to 80% crit. You can almost guarantee that you will crit with this proc'd. God of Frenzy has the same proc chance as most other characters' crit rate. So, relatively speaking, when other people crit and do double damage, you crit + zerk and deal quadruple damage. Rank 9 all the way.

Funny fact: Rank9 has +30 att lvl, which adds 30% more dmg.
It ALSO simply has alot more base dmg.
It ALSO has God of Frenzy.

So basicly, yes it does do more than 40% more dmg than nirvana G13

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

@Sirrobert >.> Leif said what you just said in the next sentence after the red one

<.<

LeiMai - Raging Tide

Ksir_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

The proc happens about 10% of the time(normal ones usually activate 5% of the time) so theres a chance you could get it a few times in a row while your charm is on cooldown and end up being one shot by the boss.

but wouldn't the BP regen from the same hit counter it completely in the overall picture? shouldn't you have more than enough time to use a pot if your HP dropped too low?

_Leif - Lost City

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Funny fact: Rank9 has +30 att lvl, which adds 30% more dmg.
It ALSO simply has alot more base dmg.
It ALSO has God of Frenzy.

So basicly, yes it does do more than 40% more dmg than nirvana G13

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

4 aps vs 2.86 aps means that your 2.86 aps daggers would have to do roughly 40% more damage per hit than 4.0 daggers in order to be comparable in dps. This would be true in the case of rank 9 daggers (30 attack lvl boost alone nearly makes up for the difference), but the major factor imo is god of frenzy, which allows you to deal 4x damage on occasion.

Put it this way, any half decent sin uses power dash, which easily gets you up to 80% crit. You can almost guarantee that you will crit with this proc'd. God of Frenzy has the same proc chance as most other characters' crit rate. So, relatively speaking, when other people crit and do double damage, you crit + zerk and deal quadruple damage. Rank 9 all the way.

Funny fact: You just restated what I said, albeit with more liberal use of the shift key and slightly worse sentence structure.

_Leif - Lost City

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

but wouldn't the BP regen from the same hit counter it completely in the overall picture? shouldn't you have more than enough time to use a pot if your HP dropped too low?

When God of Frenzy procs, two things happen: 1) you lose 5% of your HP. 2) you deal double damage, which in turn means BP heals you twice as much as usual.

Since you're sage and BP heals 3% per hit: if 6% of your average damage is greater than 5% of your HP, then you do not lose health when GoF procs. IE, you're a sage sin with 10k hp and hit a mob for exactly 10k damage. If GoF procs you hit the mob for 20k, lose 500 hp, and gain 600 hp, which is a net gain of 100 hp.

Empu - Sanctuary

CritCat - Archosaur wrote: »

R9>Everything

This just sais all. Comparing a g13 vana with r9 doesn't make any sence, seriously thinking g13 vana would outdamae r9 on any culti is blind-focussing on aps. If you're comparing vana with rank, got to compare r8 with g13 or r9 with g15.

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

4 aps vs 2.86 aps means that your 2.86 aps daggers would have to do roughly 40% more damage per hit than 4.0 daggers in order to be comparable in dps. This would be true in the case of rank 9 daggers (30 attack lvl boost alone nearly makes up for the difference), but the major factor imo is god of frenzy, which allows you to deal 4x damage on occasion.

You forget the most important imo. The att lvl is nice, GoF is awesome, but I think the base damage alone on R9 makes up for not having aps. It's the weapons damage that is multiplied by dex, affected by dagger devotion, that gets increased by sparking and serves as base for all the skills. This is also why even r8 compared to g13 vana isn't that much of a damage difference (with the double +185 max damage add). At +10 for both, g13 vana's base attack stats are only like 80% of r9s (if I recall corectly). This gap only gets bigger after applying dex multiplier, and even more when sparked.

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

What about all the stuff about how GoF will get you killed when farming TT? Theoretically speaking it doesn't seem to make sense, can someone explain it in practice?

I'm sage, so 3% BP.....3% of my normal damage is generally larger than 5% of my hp. And I have up to 8.4k buffed. Its pretty close with +5 Hitmans, when you're doing even more damage with R9 daggers....if 5% HP > 3% proc damage...wouldn't you have so much HP it wouldn't be an issue?

I'm sage and using r9. With sage bp, I don't loose hp on GoF, except some exceptional situations (Self-buffed boss in vana for instance). On lvl? bosses, I got to be sparked though. As for the frequency of the proc, it is unpredictable. It's not unusual to have it trigger over 10 times within 15sec. I doubt it would kill anyone. Even demon would only loose 1/3rd of the 5% hp loss with normal bp (which would mean like 100~150 hp for an average sin?). But they got to pay attention though, for those times it keeps triggering.

_Leif - Lost City

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

You forget the most important imo. The att lvl is nice, GoF is awesome, but I think the base damage alone on R9 makes up for not having aps. It's the weapons damage that is multiplied by dex, affected by dagger devotion, that gets increased by sparking and serves as base for all the skills. This is also why even r8 compared to g13 vana isn't that much of a damage difference (with the double +185 max damage add). At +10 for both, g13 vana's base attack stats are only like 80% of r9s (if I recall corectly). This gap only gets bigger after applying dex multiplier, and even more when sparked.

If R9 did NOT have the add-ons and was just a simple dagger with nice p attack, it would not outdamage 5.0 NV daggers (3.33 R9 vs 5.0 NV). Though I agree it is a moot point, R9 daggers are the best in game (til R10 comes out).

LeiMai - Raging Tide

Thanks Empu, what about your shards/refines? Is anything different if you go for the R9 daggers?

Would it be better to use defense shards maybe, instead of alot of vit stones?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thanks Empu, what about your shards/refines? Is anything different if you go for the R9 daggers?

Would it be better to use defense shards maybe, instead of alot of vit stones?

Empu sharded DoTs.

Dezto - Harshlands

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thanks Empu, what about your shards/refines? Is anything different if you go for the R9 daggers?

Would it be better to use defense shards maybe, instead of alot of vit stones?

Depends on your build, your, culti.. basically how you play your sin and what you plan on doing with it.

Here is a pretty nice calculator for vit vs. def stones: http://astersite.webfreehosting.net/pw/socketcalculator.html

Just make your build on pwcalc, copy paste the numbers over and see the diffrence. In most cases +2 def stone wins.

Okeano - Harshlands

Ksir_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

The proc happens about 10% of the time(normal ones usually activate 5% of the time) so theres a chance you could get it a few times in a row while your charm is on cooldown and end up being one shot by the boss.

Zerk is actually quite different from other types of procs. The normal zerk actually happens about 20% of the time. There was a post somewhere showing in-game data saying that zerk happends 25% of the time, but seems a bit too high. One in four is about how often zerk procs from my testings. GoF should be double the % so should proc about every other hit. I'd confirm it with someone with an actual GoF weapon tho. No luck so far on rolling GoF on my axes.

Empu - Sanctuary

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

If R9 did NOT have the add-ons and was just a simple dagger with nice p attack, it would not outdamage 5.0 NV daggers (3.33 R9 vs 5.0 NV). Though I agree it is a moot point, R9 daggers are the best in game (til R10 comes out).

I think you underestimate the importance of the base phys att of a weapon, but if you say so. I don't really calculate all the stuff, just look at what happens ingame (and usually rather look at sage, since I'm sage). For instance, if I see a sin with g13 vana and another with r8 (both with roughly equal gear/refines), I see aggro ping-pong. Not g13 massivly outdamage r8 like most say. I think r8 is a good example of daggers with high damage without add-ons like r9.

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thanks Empu, what about your shards/refines? Is anything different if you go for the R9 daggers?

Would it be better to use defense shards maybe, instead of alot of vit stones?

Like Olbaze said, all DoT. I didn't feel like needing more survivability. With sage spark I can already solo most TTs without begging for buffs, tank vana without cleric, kill pretty much all bosses. Since worldbosses on Sanc are already dead before they even have the time to actually spawn, I didn't see any reason for more def lvl or hp. DoT makes that I also hold aggro from 5 aps sins. Even those with g12 vana daggers.

When you ask for "anything different", I'd say that after getting to 7k hp, you better focus on def lvl or att lvl according to your own preference. Maybe you's want a bit more. Since I got a sage barb on other account, I can get to almost 10k when I want. But going above 10k seems quite useless to me for a sage sin, even without GoF. Att lvls are just smexy b:dirty I guess it also depends if you want to go full r9, or not. I tried to balance aps (cause without aps, you get a lot of QQ from squads even before you start w/e you're gonna do) and dph. So now I'm 2.86 aps, 10k-12k phys att with 52 att lvls (without blessing) Need to get to 103 to finally have 500 dex b:cry But that's a minor issue just meant to boost my ego b:laugh

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

o.O After reading your post Empu.. I am wondering now.

Is it flat-out stupid for a demon 4aps r9 ring/dag sin to shard all DoT?

Empu - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

o.O After reading your post Empu.. I am wondering now.

Is it flat-out stupid for a demon 4aps r9 ring/dag sin to shard all DoT?

Well, I'm not demon but I can tell you that without sage sparks damage reduction I'm very squishy. So I think that my DoT gear is not viable on a demon sin. R9 will give you aggro in most cases, so you would need a cleric. Bosses will hit you hard. So that is why I consider on demon ppl are pretty much forced to hp/def lvls on sharding. Being a the ultimate DD ingame, but unable to solo TT or survive some cleric dc or w/e, would be a bit silly imo.

Seems most share this, cause ingame I never saw a demon sin with fully DoT. I only know 1 that has half DoT, half hp... and he can't really solo much. To take some examples : wurlord can 1hit me in TT2-3 without sage spark (ofc you can resist/cancel all, but I don't solo a boss that could kill me with slightest lag), fragrance in fcc would make my charm tick without sage spark, Cosmoforce would be a pain in 2-3, probably even in 2-2. http://pwcalc.com/debac220e2473c72 that is my gear. It has several high refines, still I think I could only solo half of what I can now as demon. Or maybe I could do some more if I get some barb, cleric and bm to buff me each time I want to do something (right now, when I say "solo", I talk about just me with self buffs only. I can always get barb buffs cause I got a sage barb on other account, but I'm usually to lazy to actually buff myself when not strictly necessary b:chuckle)

So, is it stupid to shard all DoT on demon with r9? No, but you will need super-awesome-uber armor. So in the end, I just think it's not realistic. Everyone talks about dps (some just aps ofc b:surrender), but actually most for a balance between survivability and damage (or you could say : between solo and squad). Just my vision of things though

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ah, thanks a bunch for the input. That cleared up a lot of things..

I was thinking about it after reading your post because DoT are cheaper b:surrender

That, and if I stick with TT99, which I am, I can't shard it with jades.

Why are sins so expensive b:cry. I still have a ways to go.. What I still need to reach my current "goal" would be:

TT90 legs
TT99 gold legs
Nirvana first cast legs
Nirvana 2nd cast legs
Same for the helm

Then I'd have to get refines, then shards, before I would even consider getting rank 9.

It'll take time.. but it's just another goal to me. And as I've said somewhere before, goals is what keep me in the game.

This is my current gear: http://pwcalc.com/9f2a14ca999b9f3b

Working on it! b:victory

In the end, I want R9 and vana dags refined and sharded up. Vana ones as well mainly because I'd use it in the very very few places where it'd be better to use it instead of R9, such as the self-buffing boss in nirvy. Another reason would be to revisit 5aps from time to time ^^

Empu - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ah, thanks a bunch for the input. That cleared up a lot of things..

Why are sins so expensive b:cry.

In the end, I want R9 and vana dags refined and sharded up. Vana ones as well mainly because I'd use it in the very very few places where it'd be better to use it instead of R9, such as the self-buffing boss in nirvy. Another reason would be to revisit 5aps from time to time ^^

np for the input. It's just my opinion ofc, but if it helps ^^

b:laugh Don't be fooled, all other classes are expensive too. When I sometimes say my cleric is getting expensive (93 atm), some say things like "you can just stay with TT90", but well so can sin. It's just fun to work to better gear, and it allows you to do more. I want my cleric with at at least 5.1k hp and still pure mag at 100+, just for the black-wing boss in vana b:chuckle

You probably already thought of it, but just to be sure. Start sharding your g12 stuff with vit stones (If I recall correctly, that was your plan). If you keep your cape, and future vana stuff open, you can always put jades in those.

For that annoying self-buffing boss I kept my lunar daggers :P I'm probably the only sin that never used any -int daggers, cause I consider their dph to low b:pleased I just like big figures b:cute

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ah I see. And yes, that's what I plan to do, after I get my vana dags to +10. Originally I just wanted 5aps. The main reason being is that I couldn't imagine how 5aps would be like, and really wanted to experience it firsthand. I got that goal, and got into a great faction. There I see someone with rank 9 daggers. Because of him, rank 9 is on my goal list. b:surrender I've never seen a sin hit over 100k with just Earthen Rift by itself. No debuffs, no self buffs. When I saw that, I was shocked. >.>

My merchanting plan isn't quite working because I'm spending a lot of the coin for gears lol. The only thing I know I can do solo-wise is solo FC for well-paying people, as the coin is immediate, and it doesn't take that long. But I've gotten quite lazy on that..

Other than that the only thing making me coin is BH100 and the once-in-a-while "LF someone to help me with this/that. Paying well!" wc that I see.

Today I made 2.3m soloing bh79 20x3 for someone. They paid upfront too . And it gave me a notion to do my own bh79 20x3 that I never done. So it was a win-win-win situation.

It's just too many real life things happening for me to do things often..

But patience is a virtue!

_Tsunami_ - Lost City

First to read this thread i was going (well, still a plan...very far from that...) to go for full DoT build+r9, now i'm rethinking...

Just a questions, whit a aps build (so tt99 phy ornaments, no cube neck and warsong belt) could be better nv first recast + full DoT (so 24 attack lvls + 5aps) or full vit stones + r9 (4 aps + lot more hp and def)?

Thanks you all and sorry for bad english.