Archers at Dreadindra

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

When I considered build for my archer I thought of multiple bosses that have aoes triggered by ranged attack, like Farren in BH39 and Wyvern in BH51. Dreadindra is another boss where attacking ranged hurts your squad. For those reasons, and for equipping a helm, I chose to stat in a little strength for fists.

Playing as the cleric, the interupt from bishop aoes sucks. I'll be healing the barb, see the aoe go off, start the long channel of squad heal and it'll interupt so I'll start again, interupted... I have -channeling gear and sometimes I can be interupted 2-3 times. That's a long time to go without squad heal or IHs on the barb, so bishops need to die fast. They also silence, so killing them slower means more people silenced and less dmg on the boss.

So yes, pls stand close. Pls use fists or bow at 1/2 dmg. Please don't knockback because then people have to chase it. Half the time they get frozen away from boss. My rule is if you knock it back you can kill it. It doesn't make sense to stand away from the boss so you can deal full damage if it then makes 1-3 melee (normally higher dmg dealers) have to run off the boss to get to the bishops and then back.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

In all of the FF's I've done I've waited for the ever intelligent archer who would stand ranged and push the bishop back into Dreadindra. Hell, I wait for the intelligent archers who Wingspan and KBA ranged magic mobs closer to a pile so people who AOE on the shade can hit said mobs. Where are they? I've certainly spotted the ones who are intelligent enough to run up to a bishop group and wingspan the bishop, pushing the bishop back and the foxes all apart. I see them as often as the barb who uses slam or wizard who uses WOP in all the wrong ways.

That being said, if an archer with, say, a typical Crimson Horn Soulsmasher or Dragonbow knows how far away 5m is and can stand that short a distance away, I'm all for it, however an archer using a bow usually stands a much longer range if not their max. Plus, pushing a bishop back into Dreadindra is rather an annoying task because the bishop doesn't necessarily spawn between the archer and Dread. It's often they spawn on the back side of the player too, plus Dread tends to target the player who the bishop spawns on for purge as well on top of that. I've been in numerous squads where the archer refused to move up, and the bishop spawned on him, he got purged, the squad of melees couldn't even help because they were paralyzed, and he got killed, and the squad still had to run back there to hit it. Rather than see an archer stand next to a bishop and try to solo it with much smaller damage, or try to run around to the other side of it and potentially just get paralyzed by the bishop, it's far easier for the squad (note the "squad" part, which is not synonymous with "only the archer"), especially lowbie squads, for the archer to just stand close and either guess where 5m is or simply not do as much damage -- or even better, use fists/claws. If I'm in a squad me or my wife made and we somehow bring an archer, if they don't move up, and are belligerent, they get booted for a sin or BM. However, usually we just take the sin or BM anyways to avoid the **** we usually see with the general "point and shoot" archers. It's unfortunate too because some of the smartest people I've seen in this game are also archers.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

One thing to keep in mind is that this game does not have much redundancy in its messages. So if a message gets lost, between the server and your machine, you can have monsters appear to be one place and actually be someplace else.

You can see this when drops are nowhere near where the monster died, or when the time for it to reach you is way too short, or that kind of thing.

(Though, lately, I have seen monsters jump when I start combat, so maybe combat messages now include position?)

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

However, usually we just take the sin or BM anyways to avoid the **** we usually see with the general "point and shoot" archers. It's unfortunate too because some of the smartest people I've seen in this game are also archers.

Isn't this how discriminiation and stereotypes start?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Isn't this how discriminiation and stereotypes start?

Unfortunately when all but a very very few of the squads I start or join have archers who don't know what they're doing, are an annoyance to the squad, and/or are a highly unnecessary liability to experience when running an experience-based instance (Dread is just one example), naturally one is going stereotype. It certainly isn't the most politically correct thing to do but then again one can make the claim that people stereotype and avoid factions with a high tendency for drama and e-peen conflicts. There are plenty of good reasons to stereotype, not only bad, especially when basing it off of experience.

In this case stereotyping is of a negativity versus positivity effect. The more archers one runs into that contribute to the negativity effect begin to affect a person negatively especially when it consistently happens with one class. The more runs that are done without archers that contribute to a positivity effect contributes to a positive view of running without archers. I've personally went out of my way to friend the very very few archers who even have a clue what they're doing, but they're so few and far between. It's just more simple not to have to go through asking an archer not to STA, asking an archer to not push back magic mobs with wingspan, asking an archer not to stand way the hell back on Dread, and so on. Far easier to just not take them and if I happen to run into that rare one in somebody else's squad, I friend them. I like good players. I just almost never ever run into even a semi-decent archer in FF.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Heh Janus, maybe I should do FF with you sometime. Though you'd probably complain about my non-pro DPS. ;[

That said, I totally understand and agree with all of your examples except for the STA one. Why is that a problem? I was under the impression that people did FF primarily for "the big room" and a few select waves of mobs for which they'd use hypers. I'm pretty much the only person I've ever met who would admit to activating hypers for a boss kill (and that's because I would never even care to do more than one FF in a day; on average I do one per week, at best), and even if I did use the hypers I wouldn't QQ over a few thousand exp points being lost in such a kill.

Now if you were in a squad of all 5.0s (which I'd try not to be), and the bosses are going to die in 60 seconds or less anyway, taking that 15-20% off it may not be any good in comparison to the exp loss. But, then, if I ever did have the misfortune to be in a squad of all 5.0s, I'd probably feel a certain compulsion to troll them by using STA anyway (especially if I had lead). ;] And then my significant other would probably use RB just to add to the trolling. :P

All kidding aside, in a respectable squad if I am asked (nicely) not to use STA, I'll try my best not to (although sometimes, it can be a reflex). But my personal opinion? Who cares?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heh Janus, maybe I should do FF with you sometime. Though you'd probably complain about my non-pro DPS. ;[

Know you're joking but I've never actually said when starting an FF "pm me your aps". b:laugh

That said, I totally understand and agree with all of your examples except for the STA one. Why is that a problem? I was under the impression that people did FF primarily for "the big room" and a few select waves of mobs for which they'd use hypers.

STA is a problem because it's a deliberate nerf of experience due to the game not recognizing the HP lost as damage, the max HP lost depending on how fast STA was used (generally it's at the start for the max effect) and the level of STA. Bout as simple as I can explain it.

About only hypering the big room, well, no. If you just hyper the big room you get maybe a couple mil experience from it. You, of course, miss out on the other easy near million you get from dragoons, and from the other million or two from bosses. (here is their calculated max experience they would give)

I'm pretty much the only person I've ever met who would admit to activating hypers for a boss kill (and that's because I would never even care to do more than one FF in a day; on average I do one per week, at best), and even if I did use the hypers I wouldn't QQ over a few thousand exp points being lost in such a kill.

In almost every FF I have done in recent memory they give a "100k" warning, if slow DD squad, and "200-300k" warning if in a higher DD squad. This warning is for people who will hyper the bosses, especially the cleric.

If you follow that link above, you'll realize that it isn't just a few thousand XP. Bosses alone would cause at least half a mil experience to be lost up to near a mil. To me that's worth QQing over when, at 96, that's 2-5% of your level. It's also like doing an FF run that you do just for the big room and basically losing out on a good chunk of that, say, from dying to the mob pull, as a numbers example, or from someone talking to the NPC too early.

All kidding aside, in a respectable squad if I am asked (nicely) not to use STA, I'll try my best not to (although sometimes, it can be a reflex). But my personal opinion? Who cares?

Even though you seem nice, this is exactly why I tend not to bring archers, even when I did FF on my own archer.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

Back in 8x when FCing, I usually used to ask everyone if they wanted the mobs/bosses STAed or not, after explaining the resultant exp loss with it.

My gameplay was always depending on how the others wanted to run.

I believe this action is more acceptable.

However, STA makes little to no difference, in regards to speed, in a 9x run since the damage output is much much higher. Hence losing the exp by STAing does not make sense.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unfortunately when all but a very very few of the squads I start or join have archers who don't know what they're doing, are an annoyance to the squad, and/or are a highly unnecessary liability to experience when running an experience-based instance (Dread is just one example), naturally one is going stereotype. It certainly isn't the most politically correct thing to do but then again one can make the claim that people stereotype and avoid factions with a high tendency for drama and e-peen conflicts. There are plenty of good reasons to stereotype, not only bad, especially when basing it off of experience.

In this case stereotyping is of a negativity versus positivity effect. The more archers one runs into that contribute to the negativity effect begin to affect a person negatively especially when it consistently happens with one class. The more runs that are done without archers that contribute to a positivity effect contributes to a positive view of running without archers. I've personally went out of my way to friend the very very few archers who even have a clue what they're doing, but they're so few and far between. It's just more simple not to have to go through asking an archer not to STA, asking an archer to not push back magic mobs with wingspan, asking an archer not to stand way the hell back on Dread, and so on. Far easier to just not take them and if I happen to run into that rare one in somebody else's squad, I friend them. I like good players. I just almost never ever run into even a semi-decent archer in FF.

My runs average is less 20 minutes… and I do everything you are against.

1. I sharp all the mobs I want. Why? When metal aoe is on cool down, a critical from sharp kills the mob.
2. I wingspan all I want… even at big room. Why? Any critical on a wingspan kills the mob.
3. I’ll stand where and when I want… even when tanking with a bow. Why? All those aps users aren’t holding aggro from me… so I’ll stand where the **** I want if I am tanking.

You don’t “like good players”. From the looks of it… you never ran with good players.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

kiyo, your a lvl 102 pure dex archer with a (i think +12) rank 9 weapon, you're the exception, not the rule, and if your finishing the runs in 20 minutes, who gives a *expletive deleted* about a little xp nerf, run it again.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi (since the forum won't let me quote your post)

From the looks of it, well, no. Wrong. Congrats, you can do what pretty much any 102 can do.

I have ran with good players. However, I've also run in the high 3 digits of FF runs on a multitude of characters. This is what it's based on, not the worst of the worst, or the best of the best. If I went over the best, it's maybe soloing FF in 30-45 mins on my sin (did it last night thanks to the **** above :P), or doing runs on my BM where the entire run is 20-30 mins and bosses drop in a few seconds. We're not talking about that.

At 80, 85, 90, 95.. 20-30 minute runs with a squad that most people are going to find takes 45 mins to 1.5 hours. Most runs that involve archers, they're stupidly going to STA bosses, and use STA as a first AOE, most of the time. Not nearly as often, but enough to QQ, they wingspan magic mobs in the wrong direction.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Kiyoshi (since the forum won't let me quote your post)

At 80, 85, 90, 95.. 20-30 minute runs with a squad that most people are going to find takes 45 mins to 1.5 hours. Most runs that involve archers, they're stupidly going to STA bosses, and use STA as a first AOE, most of the time. Not nearly as often, but enough to QQ, they wingspan magic mobs in the wrong direction.

For runs with low squad levels that lasts 45 min - 1.5 hr, it would be stupid not to use STA on bosses as it can reduce your time spent killing bosses by 16% (lvl 10) at least. The time that you save and for possible multiple runs has much more value than the few exp you lose from hp reduction effects. Even for high level squads, now a days more than often you will have one person at least in the squad with lunar claws. If you think it's a stupidity for archers who uses STA on bosses in FCC, than maybe you should think likewise for bms and all others who uses lunar claws as they bare the same consequence.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »

For runs with low squad levels that lasts 45 min - 1.5 hr, it would be stupid not to use STA on bosses as it can reduce your time spent killing bosses by 16% (lvl 10) at least. The time that you save and for possible multiple runs has much more value than the few exp you lose from hp reduction effects. Even for high level squads, now a days more than often you will have one person at least in the squad with lunar claws. If you think it's a stupidity for archers who uses STA on bosses in FCC, than maybe you should think likewise for bms and all others who uses lunar claws as they bare the same consequence.

lol

It would be a dumb idea for slow paced 75-85 squad runs that last 2-3 hours, never mind quicker ones, to purposely lose over half a million experience. Why even go to an instance for the very purpose of experience if you're just intentionally, hur hur I'm gonna make this faster by 30 seconds to a few mins per boss, gonna **** yourself and the squad over of experience? Who says the squad is gonna do multiple runs anyways? I love how you make stupid presumptions about what others are going to be doing.

What I don't see you saying here is that you'd bother asking the squad what they think about losing that much experience. This is, yet again folks, is why I don't bring archers, or other archers, if I'm on my archer, to FF runs. People like this make decisions for the squad's experience based on stupidity. I will still bring a person who has Deicides (and maybe 1 out of every 5 or so runs I do has a BM with them anyways) because not only is the potential loss much less severe, but also because there's no guarantee it procs within 10% of the boss' max health (worst case scenario of them proccing on the first hit is they take 10%, versus 16% for lvl 10 STA, 20% for sage STA), and lastly because Deicides are not a purposeful unnecessary nerf of experience. STA on a boss, is. And the archer who uses STA likely doesn't know the result of what they're doing, or, far greater chance than not, simply doing what Neodaystar is doing and presuming the squad is going to do multiple runs or wants to lose half a mil experience just to shave seconds to a few minutes off a boss.

Just for fun, I would ask squads randomly if they minded if I STA'd. Most of them didn't know that it nerfed XP (if I didn't tell them I'm sure they passively don't care), but when they did, pretty much every single one of them didn't want me to. Only one time did someone ever ask my archer, in most other runs, why I wasn't STA'ing. When I explained how it nerfed experience, they didn't urge me to do it anyways. Strange. On the last three characters I got to 100 (archer, sin, and now barb is almost there along with my second veno) I have made a habit of friending the archers I did see in squads (they obviously weren't squads I had made) who didn't STA, especially when I noticed they didn't STA and asked how come, with them telling me because it reduces XP. Know how many archers that is in total? Two.

Elenacostel warns me about stereotypes and discrimination in my wife and I refusing to allow archers in FF squads we make (or advising the squad I'm with against it), but look at the defenses for using it anyways even from the small percent of those who even know what it does (and not relentlessly arguing it actually does reduce XP). This kind of attitude does not belong in a squad, or any squad based instance. I've even got PM's in game from people who read my posts in this very section saying this is a reason as well they don't take archers. It would behoove archers (especially this coming from a fellow archer), who are not one of the classes that at are needed in an FF, to start thinking with a squad mentality about a squad based instance. The poster I'm responding to is 101 and thus FF is really not much of a necessity, but to other archers who, consequently, need FF, would benefit them to do things that make them wanted in a squad, or maybe if they love playing with STA so badly, level in rebirth, where reducing max hp doesn't effect quest based experience.
/walloftext and /inb4tl;dr

Valirah - Sanctuary

Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »

For runs with low squad levels that lasts 45 min - 1.5 hr, it would be stupid not to use STA on bosses as it can reduce your time spent killing bosses by 16% (lvl 10) at least. The time that you save and for possible multiple runs has much more value than the few exp you lose from hp reduction effects. Even for high level squads, now a days more than often you will have one person at least in the squad with lunar claws. If you think it's a stupidity for archers who uses STA on bosses in FCC, than maybe you should think likewise for bms and all others who uses lunar claws as they bare the same consequence.

What? You want to shave 16% off the time to kill a boss on an XP run by reducing the earned XP of said boss by the same 16%? It's not like those bosses give piddly XP. Why not just skip the entire dungeon, cuts 100% of the time and cuts 100% of the XP earned.

As for Deicide users, there is only a 5% chance per hit of the HP reduction effect triggering, and the effect is only -10%. Chances are quite good that by the time it procs, the amount of actual HP (and XP) lost will be minimal. Also, an archer has to willfully launch that XP draining attack, he can simply choose not to, it's hardly troublesome.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

This thread is really derailed. It's about where Archers stand at Dreadindra, not STA. JanusZeal originally indicated he did not invite archers b/c they did not stand in the proper position against this boss. That post had nothing to do with STA.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This thread is really derailed. It's about where Archers stand at Dreadindra, not STA. JanusZeal originally indicated he did not invite archers b/c they did not stand in the proper position against this boss. That post had nothing to do with STA.

I did? o.o

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I did? o.o

I saw nowhere in your post any mention of STA, so I presumed that you were on topic. If you went off-topic and posted irrelevant information, then never mind.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

What? You want to shave 16% off the time to kill a boss on an XP run by reducing the earned XP of said boss by the same 16%? It's not like those bosses give piddly XP. Why not just skip the entire dungeon, cuts 100% of the time and cuts 100% of the XP earned.

As for Deicide users, there is only a 5% chance per hit of the HP reduction effect triggering, and the effect is only -10%. Chances are quite good that by the time it procs, the amount of actual HP (and XP) lost will be minimal. Also, an archer has to willfully launch that XP draining attack, he can simply choose not to, it's hardly troublesome.

I think Neodaystar's point was that for people using hypers, exps per hour matter, not exps per run.

And that 5% chance for decides to proc is 5% per hit, not 5% for all time. The chance of decides not procing in 50 hits is less than 8%. And 50 hits is 10 seconds with one 5aps decides user, and 2 seconds with five of them.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I saw nowhere in your post any mention of STA, so I presumed that you were on topic. If you went off-topic and posted irrelevant information, then never mind.

The post was obviously relevant but can you point out the part where I said I don't go with archers cuz of where they stand on Dread? There's a bit more useful information there. If I'm gonna be quoted I'd at least like what I said to be used correctly.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

This thread is about where archers stand at Dreadindra. You made this statement:

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

However, usually we just take the sin or BM anyways to avoid the **** we usually see with the general "point and shoot" archers.

I had assumed the above statement was with regards to where archers stand at Dreadindra ("point and shoot" vs "move up and shoot up close"). If it is not on topic, then, like I said, never mind.

LShattered - Heavens Tear

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

kiyo, your a lvl 102 pure dex archer with a (i think +12) rank 9 weapon, you're the exception, not the rule, and if your finishing the runs in 20 minutes, who gives a *expletive deleted* about a little xp nerf, run it again.

if you do have a +12 rank 9 bow. It is rather hard to see if you are actually a good player since your gear does it for you.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I had assumed the above statement was with regards to where archers stand at Dreadindra ("point and shoot" vs "move up and shoot up close"). If it is not on topic, then, like I said, never mind.

The above statement is a term I've been using to describe archers who just point and shoot with little to no regard for anything else. Usually I say that to describe archers who mindlessly STA bosses, mobs, use Wingspan inappropriately, but it's encompassing enough to include archers who refuse to be close to Dread, within certain context. The context being that if an archer stands ~ 5m away, which is in fact very close, I would not have a problem with it. Twice I mentioned this in the post you cited, but deleted, for one reason or another. However, this is not the case. So if our squad asks the archer to move up, they aren't close enough, obviously, for anyone else to hit the bishop, so if the archer refuses or is belligerent about it, they get booted, for a BM or sin preferably. This has nothing to do with merely how they stand, but their refusal to cooperate with the squad. I've already got into it with archers in the past before over STA, so my patience with them, if they are somehow in a squad my wife and I make, is very limited. I have no problem with kicking anyone who disregards a squad, but this happens almost every time with archers, even when I was doing FF on my own archer.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

LShattered - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if you do have a +12 rank 9 bow. It is rather hard to see if you are actually a good player since your gear does it for you.

75% of a player's worth is going to be determined by their gears. The other 25% is going to be how well he can time his skills. After all, I could be the most skilled player on the server. But if you take away my weapon and replace it with some stock tt99 bow. I am going to be hitting some 3-digits on robes and be essentially worthless. But on the other hand if you give some nub a +12 bow with a full set of r9 for 100+ attack levels. He is going to one shot me fully buffed... and what skills I have is going to be worthless.

Without gears... there will be no skills to speak of whatsoever.

LShattered - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

75% of a player's worth is going to be determined by their gears. The other 25% is going to be how well he can time his skills. After all, I could be the most skilled player on the server. But if you take away my weapon and replace it with some stock tt99 bow. I am going to be hitting some 3-digits on robes and be essentially worthless. But on the other hand if you give some nub a +12 bow with a full set of r9 for 100+ attack levels. He is going to one shot me fully buffed... and what skills I have is going to be worthless.

Without gears... there will be no skills to speak of whatsoever.

True.