Sage Versus Demon (Balance Please.)

Dagnatic - Sanctuary

kreslin wrote: »

But if barbs don't usefull anymore, who tanks world bosses then? And what do you mean by -int?

-int is - intervals, fists usualy hit at about 2aps, but using -int gear you can take that from roughly 2aps (attacks per second) to 5aps, therefore dealing more dmg faster, and thus making it hard for a non -int player to steal agro.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Sage barb is pretty much for tanks. Which they kinda suck at endgame since there are many 5.0 people now-a-days.

Barb pretty much only tanks FCC and Trophy Mode.

Also, Herc + Veno = Barb + Cleric, except cleric can heal everyone.

Dagnatic - Sanctuary

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, Herc + Veno = Barb + Cleric, except cleric can heal everyone.

nope no it doesn't
Cleric + barb = Veno, Only better, because the Pet actually has a mind of its own.
relatively similar, but i think a Cleric + a Barb beats a Veno + herc any day, tank wise that is

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Why play a sage barb anymore? Honestly?

MP recovery and faster speed, I will pick sage barb just for that, honestly.

With interval classes dominating aggro no matter what your weapon refines are and how fast you can spam flesh ream, why bother?

Interval is broken, but if they don't have the survivability they are just nothing but idiots, they will have to back up on armors, seriously.

I have 505 Strength on my barb, and I have +5 Lunar Axes with a Garnet gem. Full buffed my physical attack range is 8121-12011. So why is it that +3 99 daggers on sins with vit statted can pull and hold aggro from me at 2.5 APS?

Sounds like you were auto attacking, a barb should not be losing aggro to sins with 2.5 APS, Flesh ream have a 3 second cooldown

Now I am not saying that Demon barbs intrinsically have more aggro holding abilities, so let's compare some sage and demon skills for a moment shall we? Sage Axe n' Hammer master gives 100% weapon damage, but 1% crit is approximately equal to 10% weapon damage in long term DPS. So Demon barbs get 75% and 2% crit, so basically equal. What about the strength buff? 50% vs. 40% and 5% crit for 1 minute, so aside from the longevity, demon wins again.

You're doing it wrong, 2% crit is easily gained by gear, demon does not win here. 5% crit for 1 minute, I guess you have to spam strength of the titans every minute = charm burn, unless you are in RB with mana aura, which most people only go for bh

What about shapeshifting intensity? 120% pdef versus 80% and 2% crit, well the pdef suffers for Demons, but they get more crit for giggles.

Again, 2% crit is nothing since it it is easily gained by gears, compared to an extra 40% p.def, I'd rather have things tickle me, which they are now, than see high numbers, and I crit just fine atm, going demon is just not necessary for that

Now what about Sage and Demon roar? Sage reduces target's magic attack by 30% for 10 seconds, while the Demon's reflects 100% of physical damage for 10 seconds, wow, seems very unbalanced, especially if a 5.0 sin is hitting you.

Unbalanced? Wrong again, I heard it demon version overwrites bramble guard (sage/demon version have 75% if I am right) + this only replies for melee, same as sage roar only applying for magic.

What about sunder? This skill alone makes barbs that use axes look stupid and silly, if someone is attacking you with physical damage, use demon roar, then demon sunder, and they will crit themselves killing themselves death before the have realized what has happened,

You will lose some seconds and it would be a lot more smart for an assassin to use puncture wound and deep sting and kite you until you lose your crit + bramble

Where as if you are sage, like me, when a 5.0 pops up you invoke? Run away? Paralyzing them with alacrity or frighten won't help, and the 40% additional pdef will be negligible anyways.

You couldn't be more wrong, frighten slows them. and alacrity can immobilize, surf impact to slows, assassins hate to fight my barb I doubt that additional p.def is negligible

Back to Demon sunder, use it and switch to standing form with your claws, 5.0APS at 100% crit for 6secs-how long it takes you to switch. That holds aggro. Now that only works if you are 3.33 APS or higher and you use either a chi pot or cloud eruption, but Sage barbs have no DPS combo like that,

I have to agree that demon sunder have too much of an unfair advantage, should of never had this in the first place, it is not holding aggro that is the problem, it is the spark problem having no cooldown. But again, I hold aggro just fine on my barb and he's not even 89, I can hold aggro from lvl80 non-tideborn.

nor a defensive combo that a demon barb does not have too, and can use just as fast.

Please explain

Even Demon poison fang gives 50% weapon damage as opposed to Sage's 40% wep DMG.

Wrong, poison fang does NOT do extra damage. People do not get the elements? Ok, short thing, wood affinity, 40%-50% of your weapon's physical attack will do wood based attacks. If you are fighting against an earth elemental mob, it will do 50% more damage, if you are fighting an earth elemental mob, seems that you will do 50%less damage. If you are fighting an increased defense mob, it will deduct your damage to 75% instead of 50. Magic resistance will be much less. Many people make this mistake.

What about beastial onslaught? One of our hardest hitting skills, Sage barbs might miss, unless they have 11 B.O. which bu they way, almost doubles the time it takes to use so effectively halving our DPS, whereas the Demon version gives you a 35% chance to crit, for 6 seconds, might as well triple spark, beastial onslaught and switch to your claws for giggles at 70+% crit.

What happens if demon version B.O misses??? However, I will agree that demon B.O is broken.

What about true form you ask? How Sage is faster and gives more HP? Only 10% more mind you, and that is for speed too, yet we get a 50% weapon damage reduction, which totally undoes our 50% strength buff that we paid 25 million for anyways.

I'd rather have more speed and more HP which is 20% total, and you know how annoying it is to travel, getting more speed is a lot more difficult than getting more crit... Than damage penalty gone.

Lastly, a strength barbs hardest hitting skill, Ancestral Rage. 200% of base damage, only usable in tiger form, wait, what? OUR ONLY 100% accurate, 8 second freeze, that does 200% base damage, is only usable for Sage barbs when they have a 50% weapon damage reduction?

It will deal 100% extra base damage for sage, true, but sage spark = 500% weapon damage correct??

People complain about Assassins being over powered, how about we get some Sage and Demon balance first,

Assassins were not overpowered, they do have broken skills like the rest of the classes

I mean since the advent of the Assassin, blood paint alone is reason enough to go -interval Demon barb, you do better DPS than the Sage barb ever hopes to, even if you go full vit, and you heal yourself more than a Sage barb's sunder does, plus you are not using 2 sparks to do it.

This cannot be a factor, honestly. Again, taking a lot less damage over 2% heals of how much damage you deal.

So demon barb gets to have more HP, more DPS, more Crit, more Aggro, and better tankability?

Did you say demon barbs have more HP, Are you really serious?? Are demon barbs getting better gears than sage barbs???

Aggro should never be a problem to any barb unless they are in squad with perma-sparkores.

Sage barbs have better tankability, magic is a barb's worst nightmare, sage roar saves that problem. No? It is how you play your character in situations

Seriously PWI, at least let Sage barbs use Ancestral Rage in standing form, the advent of 5.0APS has made axes virtually useless, at least let us use our skills when can do a little damage.

One time fists are useless in the eyes of people not knowing how to manage with them, and guess what? They still do not.

Go ahead, give Demon barbs clean sweep in true form, just make sure that Sage barbs get to use Ancestral Rage regardless of form, as it should have been long ago.

That will not solve the problem

Blade_Aether
I don't have a sig because I am not a forum troll.

Seems you have a hard time playnig as a barb. I seen barbs lose aggro because they barely use flesh ream and devour and mainly auto attacking. Key binding is for lazy players anyway.

Blade_aether - Lost City

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Seems you have a hard time playnig as a barb. I seen barbs lose aggro because they barely use flesh ream and devour and mainly auto attacking. Key binding is for lazy players anyway.

Are you a troll?

Poison fang does add damage, try attacking physical immune mobs in lunar, without, then with it. (Ex: Base dmg =8000-12000, weapon damage is 850-1650. 50% of weapon damage is 425-825. Therefore, 8000+425-12000+825. So your new base damage (PVE) would be 8425-12825. So yes, more damage per hit. Albeit wood, so negligible against casters or wood/metal mobs, but still useful against physical classes, IE. BM.)

Crit acquired through gear as balance? Anyone can get crit gear, sage and demon, that is not a balancing factor.

Diminishing returns? Ever heard of that? 40% additional pdef from Sage shapeshift is negligible because that 3k extra pdef, is like 2% pdef increase.

Ever fought Kitamura? They will kill your full buffed sage barb through invoke before occult wears off, every time.

Clearly you must play a PVE server? Discussion was directed to PVP, world PVP. Ever tried bramble in world PVP? Doesn't work kiddo.

You CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT justify a cultivation balance based on gear, because anyone can attain that gear. So you cannot suggest more crit for sage barbs through armor, because demon barbs can achieve set armor with the same coin/effort.

Look at it at a whole. They are 2 very different things, determined preference is based on play style. Sage barb with more speed, pdef, and HP is clearly for absorbing damage. If the additional damage you can absorb is heavily outweighed by a severe damage output met by the other cultivation with similar gear/shards/refines, then there is by definition an imbalance.

Baby don't get me wrong, I love my barb, and my cultivation. Otherwise I would not have bought all of my sage skills. Even though there is an imbalance I still prefer sage. To disregard the imbalance however is naive.

As for trouble playing my barb, I have none.

Blade_Aether
Bending you over, and spanking you right.

Blade_aether - Lost City

One last thing honey,

If you are not 100, you have NO idea what I am talking about.

I never lost aggro to ANYONE till I started running 100 instances, but I hit 100 before the full advent of -interval.

My aggro now = A thing of the past.
I never auto attack, I am a skill spammer to the death baby. I burn mana like it is nobody's business.

We'll see how the last laugh sounds when you can't figure out why your sage buffs won't land you in any good Nirvana squads.

Blade_Aether
Higher level than you.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Poison fang does add damage, try attacking physical immune mobs in lunar, without, then with it. (Ex: Base dmg =8000-12000, weapon damage is 850-1650. 50% of weapon damage is 425-825. Therefore, 8000+425-12000+825. So your new base damage (PVE) would be 8425-12825. So yes, more damage per hit. Albeit wood, so negligible against casters or wood/metal mobs, but still useful against physical classes, IE. BM.)

Again, poison fang does add damage depending on the mob/boss/player you are attacking or if you are fighting players with lower wood resistance. Wood > earth. But why would you want to use it on an elemental immune enemy? It will change the difference in some mobs. I only use it for earth elemental enemies. Although I prefer demon version over sage, but poison fang only adds damage to certain targets.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Crit acquired through gear as balance? Anyone can get crit gear, sage and demon, that is not a balancing factor.

Yup

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Diminishing returns? Ever heard of that? 40% additional pdef from Sage shapeshift is negligible because that 3k extra pdef, is like 2% pdef increase.

For non-refines it is.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Ever fought Kitamura? They will kill your full buffed sage barb through invoke before occult wears off, every time.

Invoke has a huge damage reduction, highly doubt it. Yet, I haven't faced him yet, can see soon

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Clearly you must play a PVE server? Discussion was directed to PVP, world PVP. Ever tried bramble in world PVP? Doesn't work kiddo.

PK you mean, I played on that server of too. So sage version of roar wins there? The m.atk debuff is really useful against casters right?

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

You CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT justify a cultivation balance based on gear, because anyone can attain that gear. So you cannot suggest more crit for sage barbs through armor, because demon barbs can achieve set armor with the same coin/effort.

So you are basically saying that sage barbs can get crit from gears to make up for the crit from passive demon skills.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Look at it at a whole. They are 2 very different things, determined preference is based on play style. Sage barb with more speed, pdef, and HP is clearly for absorbing damage. If the additional damage you can absorb is heavily outweighed by a severe damage output met by the other cultivation with similar gear/shards/refines, then there is by definition an imbalance.

2 different things, correct. You want to expect the same result from the 2 different things. You have the sage barb skills. I was silly enough to duel some demon chars and i took out some HP

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Baby don't get me wrong, I love my barb, and my cultivation. Otherwise I would not have bought all of my sage skills. Even though there is an imbalance I still prefer sage. To disregard the imbalance however is naive.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

If you are not 100, you have NO idea what I am talking about.

Level does not equate as skill, even more now.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

I never lost aggro to ANYONE till I started running 100 instances, but I hit 100 before the full advent of -interval.

Seems that you were complaining about "better aggro from demon", you were saying that

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

My aggro now = A thing of the past.
I never auto attack, I am a skill spammer to the death baby. I burn mana like it is nobody's business.

I never had a problem with aggro as a barb to begin with.

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

We'll see how the last laugh sounds when you can't figure out why your sage buffs won't land you in any good Nirvana squads.

Blade_Aether
Higher level than you.

I laugh at how I don't like random squads, and it is funny people actually want me to tank all the time. Maybe for Nirvana, I do not even need the nirvana things, I would probably go a few times after making OHT gears, but I rather go with friends / faction which I usually do in instances like TT / rebirth / FB, I only ask for randoms as a filler. (You seem rejected from Nirvana squads because of being replaced by AFK auto attacking cash shoppers)

You seem angry at me, for saying "Higher level than you" seems you like to brag. Typical.