Heavy Veno

_LeaderAlan_ - Lost City

Ok, so I had some questions on Heavy veno so i had thrown some world chats into the air.
What I got is:
Heavy venos such
Heavy venos are good end game
Heavy venos are good pvp
Heavy venos are trash in pvp
Heavy venos suck in pve
Heavy venos can solo pve

ROFL

Can I get some solid answers?

Thank You for your answers.

Tjikkie - Raging Tide

I like to add a question for heavy veno.

Can they heal their pet enough to solo dungeons (or just normal grinding)?

Because as far as i know, part of the healing comes from the points added to mag.

kenlee

_LeaderAlan_ - Lost City wrote: »

Can I get some solid answers?

plenty of threads like this in the past few months
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=heavy+veno+site%3Apwi-forum.perfectworld.com
or
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/search.php?searchid=30069862

_LeaderAlan_ - Lost City

Links do not work

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Since I'm currently leveling up a heavy/robe veno, I'll take a stab at this.

Your mag attack and mana pool are going to be lower than a pure arcane build, without a doubt. Provided you stat enough mag to wield own-level magic weapons, it won't be that bad. My heavy/robe veno pet tanked an FB19 at 31 (with a scorpion! b:shocked The barb that was supposed to tank was fighting in human form. If I knew I was going to have to keep aggro on the pet I would have used my walker instead.) If you go heavy axe or something... your mag attack and mana pool will be terribly low. Keeping your pet healed will be nearly impossible.

Heavy/robe is a very equipment dependent build, at 44 I'm currently about 5 stat points short of being able to wear -10% req level 43 heavy legs I bought. If I could just find some +stat boots and sleeves I can wear...

I don't do PVP, but it's my understanding the advantage a heavy/robe veno has in PVP is being able to hide what armor is equipped behind fashion.

As for PVE, you have greater survivability by having a choice of armor to equip. I just went on a TT1-1 this morning with faction, and with 4k phys defense (heavy armor + level 1 fox form + level 10 cleric buffs) I was able to survive the Drummer's AOE within BB (was being hit for ~850 near the end, with >1600 HP barb buffed.) A 44 in arcane armor would have been one shot... I'm also fishing for fungus off Dawn's Cry (have been since level 41), and (since the fish have water attacks) I wear full arcane. With >2k water defense, I can take a few hits and usually get away if pet (level 44 abysmal tortoise) dies or something spawns near me during a fight.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

if you go heavy early you are severly limiting what you can do, because equips with a lot of stats are hard to come by early in game, and because the increased defense you get isn't all that spectacular. your magic attack will be severely limited and you will have to chose between armor for your level or weapon for you level. lower level armors are not as bad as a lower level weapon, a lvl 60 using a lvl 40 weapon is pretty useless, and doing so just to say you are a HA veno is kinda dumb. due to the recent rise in the build's popularity even at early levels for some reason, you arent even being different. at the very earliest you could try switching over at 70 when you can get TT armor, because the stats are easier to work with as all the pieces have the same requirement. I think you are better off going LA and looking for pieces with +phys def. there are pieces out there with 3x+94 phys def which will give you near the same phys def as HA at those levels, with much better magic defense. and LA build is easier to work with, especially at lower levels 3mag 1dex 1str every level, leaving room for +vit/+mag -chan +hp ornaments, with HA, all your ornaments have to be stat oriented. switch over to HA at 80 or 90, 90 is of course easier, because of the availability of stat capes.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

what do you mean with solid answer? Are you expecting someone to say "I'm heavy but heavy is hard to build and hits lower than a BM", something like "I'm a proud pure arcane but I know Wizards hit much higher" or maybe "I love light but every time my first hit crits the mob runs after me"?

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Tjikkie - Raging Tide wrote: »

Can they heal their pet enough to solo dungeons (or just normal grinding)?

At 93, my average mag. attack unbuffed if I put on all my magic gear is about 5000. If I put on a mix of heavy/arcane and one magic and one might ring, it's about 4500. (I rarely put on two might rings because it's too easy to steal aggro from my herc if I do that. If I get a barb attack buff, I usually have to go with two magic rings to avoid pulling aggro.)

I should also point out that when I'm meleeing, I build up chi quickly enough to stay single-sparked 70% of the time. My mag attack while single-sparked in melee mode is about 6750.

I put my build into pwcalc, and moved my extra str and dex to mag and vit as if I'd gone with a 1 str, 1 vit, 8 mag every 10 levels build. That came out with an average 6500 mag attack.

Level 93 pet heal heals 30% of your magic attack + 540 points. So the corresponding average amounts healed are:

2565 (103%) - heavy build, melee/magic mix, single sparked
2490 (100%) - arcane vit/mag build
2040 (82%) - heavy build, casting gear
1890 (76%) - heavy build, melee/magic mix

So basically, no, healing is not a problem. If the herc just needs a touch-up heal, I heal it. If it needs a bigger heal, I spark and heal it.

kenlee

if you have time to melee and spark between heal then those bosses are really lower lvls and not even worth farming. you forgot that no matter build, every fox can melee or w/e and gain the same amount of chi and can spark too

Solandri - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

if you have time to melee and spark between heal then those bosses are really lower lvls and not even worth farming. you forgot that no matter build, every fox can melee or w/e and gain the same amount of chi and can spark too

Re-read the question: "Can they heal their pet enough to solo dungeons (or just normal grinding)?"

Note the "or just normal grinding" at the end there. The person was asking about clearing the regular mobs in the instance, and whether the weaker heal presented any difficulties. That's what I answered.

Bosses are easy to spam-heal through. You don't have to solo dungeons to find this out, since the veno often ends up tanking the bosses while spam healing. There are very few bosses and level ranges where I found myself at a disadvantage compared to arcane venos I regularly group with. And those were more than offset by the number of bosses with physical AOEs where I could just stand there while spam-healing and heal up with my genie/pots, whereas the arcanes needed a cleric in the group to even attempt it. And as I've said here countless times, the real problem with high level bosses is your herc not having enough hp and getting one-shot or two-shot. So channeling gear is more important than having high magic.

SerenityMare - Dreamweaver

At what level do you guys suggest having a heavy TT armor? ^^

Serinregis - Lost City

I (like most people) would suggest 90 for TT armor (or going HA in general) because for an HA/AA veno, each level, each stat point is planned out ahead of time and can be a huge hassle at lower levels, i just getting cheap equipment and just powering your way through lower lvls before going HA since it is indeed very hard to build.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

I pick whatever gives best stat adds. 3-star is not much worse than TT or legendary...

btw TT80 green bracers/sleeves and the lvl77 legendary mold cuisses of sea captain have excellent adds.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

I agree, the TT80 bracers and requim blade give extra stat points needed to wear TT90 heavy armor incase you aren't able to pick up the mats for the TT90 cape before lvl 90. Also the TT90 gold bracers that can be made from the TT80 green bracers also give a good -interval bonus, or -channeling if you choose the arcane set.

kenlee

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Re-read the question: "Can they heal their pet enough to solo dungeons (or just normal grinding)?"

Note the "or just normal grinding" at the end there. The person was asking about clearing the regular mobs in the instance, and whether the weaker heal presented any difficulties. That's what I answered.

Bosses are easy to spam-heal through. You don't have to solo dungeons to find this out, since the veno often ends up tanking the bosses while spam healing. There are very few bosses and level ranges where I found myself at a disadvantage compared to arcane venos I regularly group with. And those were more than offset by the number of bosses with physical AOEs where I could just stand there while spam-healing and heal up with my genie/pots, whereas the arcanes needed a cleric in the group to even attempt it. And as I've said here countless times, the real problem with high level bosses is your herc not having enough hp and getting one-shot or two-shot. So channeling gear is more important than having high magic.

whats the point of soloing dungeons (clearing mobs) if you dont do bosses...
anyway, i can stand any aoe. so far the hardest one was from last boss in FC... i did it w/o clerics heals and buffs and no charm. yea ancient evil can hit harder but there ill bring a charm and buffs. i can do 1-x, i can do 2-1 wurlord, havent tried solo 2-2 wurlord yet... both atral are a walk in the park. idk what other hard bosses but im sure a heavy veno my lvl cant do those bosses at least solo...
if herc get 2 shoted it can be done by arcane... if its 1 shot then no

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

whats the point of soloing dungeons (clearing mobs) if you dont do bosses...
anyway, i can stand any aoe. so far the hardest one was from last boss in FC... i did it w/o clerics heals and buffs and no charm. yea ancient evil can hit harder but there ill bring a charm and buffs. i can do 1-x, i can do 2-1 wurlord, havent tried solo 2-2 wurlord yet... both atral are a walk in the park. idk what other hard bosses but im sure a heavy veno my lvl cant do those bosses at least solo...
if herc get 2 shoted it can be done by arcane... if its 1 shot then no

it's not possible to solo ancient evil with herc due to the self buff. also it's not possible to summon pet away from boss range so it's not possible to take out adds 1 at once without taking aggro over all.
only a full heavy veno with charm is able to deal with the random hits from that boss without cleric support. even with 15k phys ancient evil is still able to hit over 3k.

Prowler - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

whats the point of soloing dungeons (clearing mobs) if you dont do bosses...
anyway, i can stand any aoe. so far the hardest one was from last boss in FC... i did it w/o clerics heals and buffs and no charm. yea ancient evil can hit harder but there ill bring a charm and buffs. i can do 1-x, i can do 2-1 wurlord, havent tried solo 2-2 wurlord yet... both atral are a walk in the park. idk what other hard bosses but im sure a heavy veno my lvl cant do those bosses at least solo...
if herc get 2 shoted it can be done by arcane... if its 1 shot then no

Video-clip, or it didn't happen.

kenlee

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it's not possible to solo ancient evil with herc due to the self buff. also it's not possible to summon pet away from boss range so it's not possible to take out adds 1 at once without taking aggro over all.
only a full heavy veno with charm is able to deal with the random hits from that boss without cleric support. even with 15k phys ancient evil is still able to hit over 3k.

not solo but duo is possible. look at xkat and the other veno thread, both venos did ancient evil in duo mode. ofc they have like 10k hp and good channeling and what not... charms and event pots... but still full arcane and no cleric

Prowler - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Video-clip, or it didn't happen.

video for what???

Solandri - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

i can do 1-x, i can do 2-1 wurlord, havent tried solo 2-2 wurlord yet... both atral are a walk in the park. idk what other hard bosses but im sure a heavy veno my lvl cant do those bosses at least solo...

What's your level? At 91 or lower (most of them I could do in my 80s), my heavy soloed all the bosses on your list except 2-1 wurlord. I actually haven't tried him solo, since for the most part I believe soloing instances is a waste of time. The huge damage range in his attacks would make success more dependent on luck rather than build though. 1-3 Drummer is like that too. I soloed him at around 91. Then went back the next day and herc died in 10 seconds because of a (un)lucky two-shot. 1-3 Soulbanisher is actually harder than 1-3 drummer. His AOE seems to shift towards the upper end of his damage range as the fight goes on, increasing the chance of a two-shot. But I got lucky and made it through the last couple minutes without a big two-shot combo. There were many AOE and melee hits which if they'd happened as a two-shot combo, would've killed my herc.

if herc get 2 shoted it can be done by arcane... if its 1 shot then no

It's possible, but realistically almost entirely dependent on luck. And whether or not you can do it is completely independent of build. Most of the high level TT bosses will cast and follow it up almost immediately with a melee attack. I'm talking like 0.5-1.0 sec. Your pet will do this too - the first regular hit will happen almost immediately after the initial Bash. If the boss can two-shot your herc, and both the magic and and melee attacks are high damage, your herc is toast.

The only way to keep your herc alive is to get your heal to fall right in between those two hits. Which is impossible while spam healing even for an arcane with crazy channeling. Level 10 pet heal has a 1.5 sec channel time and 1.0 sec cast time. So if you spam heal, even if you had 100% channeling, just by chance alone the boss will eventually land two hits during that 1.0 sec cast time.

So the only way to do it reliably is to time your heal when he starts casting so it'll land just as he finishes casting. Channeling helps here, but unless you're on a really good network connection, there's a large element of luck involved. And again, it's completely independent of your build. A heavy with the same level pet heal can do it just as easily as an arcane, they just need enough channeling and good timing.

The easiest way is just to get another veno to help heal. If you're careful not to let your heals synchronize, you reduce the odds of a 2-shot kill to near zero with just simple spam healing.

kenlee

3 lvls to 100. well, like i said in other thread heavy that has same channeling gear can do that too except probably bosses that nearly kill pet like wurlord or lets say you have a glaive and in that moment some boss have the highest damage (from damage range) and you have the lowest heal from heal range (worst case tho...). if i was heavy i would probably have almost 75-100 less mag, i havent done any calc yet to see how is that affecting my heals. about aoe's i can survive all just fine with pots (like 9k pdef but still bad gear) just cant tank myself bosses instead of pets.
..but still 1-x and 2-x is not even the problem. i believe, from what other venos did, that 3-2 and 3-3 is where you need best channeling, heals and probably blessing too... and on top of that another veno like you. at some bosses barbs get hit up to 8k so i dont think melee venos would have a better chance than barbs, ofc pets are out from this... even archers can be better tanks than venos there

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

not solo but duo is possible. look at xkat and the other veno thread, both venos did ancient evil in duo mode. ofc they have like 10k hp and good channeling and what not... charms and event pots... but still full arcane and no cleric

a 2nd veno would eventually be able to get the adds away from boss and tank them without random boss hits but then... both venos will be totally busy healing their pets. who will keep boss purged? that's a checkmate! after ancient evil buffs a couple of times it will start to hit both the pet and the veno really high. i've heard a lvl100 bm with good gear ended up killed with 1 hit when buffs stacked high so my guess is that your story comes from a private server.

/NiKi - Lost City

can heavy veno tank blacky or other oht bosses?how about 2-3 1st boss?and on what lvl heavy veno can tank those bosses?if answer is yes,but on low 9x not talking about lvl 100 veno,then HA can heal good enough as arcane.just a question,dont flame.i am arcane since lvl 1 so just wondering.
i know 93 LA veno cant tank oht bosses alone,but maybe thats just THAT veno cuz of low channel or i dont know what reason,cuz i remember back then when i needed those bosses i tank them by my self.

kenlee

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a 2nd veno would eventually be able to get the adds away from boss and tank them without random boss hits but then... both venos will be totally busy healing their pets. who will keep boss purged? that's a checkmate! after ancient evil buffs a couple of times it will start to hit both the pet and the veno really high. i've heard a lvl100 bm with good gear ended up killed with 1 hit when buffs stacked high so my guess is that your story comes from a private server.

i guess you are wrong again but oh well, here is for you
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=539602
(thread is old and pictures arent available it seems but 2 venos duo belial was possible but like i said both well geared and both arcane)
btw, venos can purge and heal pet by turns like they do on cosmoforce but you are no veno to know that. i guess that chezedude (spell?) completly soloing belial on dreamweaver is another private story too... guess what, that lvl 100 bm is a fail one

/NiKi - Lost City wrote: »

can heavy veno tank blacky or other oht bosses?how about 2-3 1st boss?and on what lvl heavy veno can tank those bosses?if answer is yes,but on low 9x not talking about lvl 100 veno,then HA can heal good enough as arcane.just a question,dont flame.i am arcane since lvl 1 so just wondering.
i know 93 LA veno cant tank oht bosses alone,but maybe thats just THAT veno cuz of low channel or i dont know what reason,cuz i remember back then when i needed those bosses i tank them by my self.

same arcane here but tried all builds. yea some LA asked for my help too in their low 9x, for me was np soloing blackhole since ive got the quest at 90, same with the other 2 (crack warper and void hunter) plus fataliqua

Solandri - Heavens Tear

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a 2nd veno would eventually be able to get the adds away from boss and tank them without random boss hits but then... both venos will be totally busy healing their pets. who will keep boss purged? that's a checkmate! after ancient evil buffs a couple of times it will start to hit both the pet and the veno really high.

I don't think he starts buffing himself until later in the fight. At least that's what I remember from the many times we tried him. So if one veno is just holding him without significantly lowering his hp, the other could clear the adds without much difficulty.

/NiKi - Lost City wrote: »

can heavy veno tank blacky or other oht bosses?how about 2-3 1st boss?and on what lvl heavy veno can tank those bosses?if answer is yes,but on low 9x not talking about lvl 100 veno,then HA can heal good enough as arcane.just a question,dont flame.i am arcane since lvl 1 so just wondering.
i know 93 LA veno cant tank oht bosses alone,but maybe thats just THAT veno cuz of low channel or i dont know what reason,cuz i remember back then when i needed those bosses i tank them by my self.

I haven't met a boss in OHT that I wasn't able to tank with my herc or phoenix (it has Strong and the same pdef as a herc). I first tried Blackhole in my high 80s, 88 I think. He'd killed my phoenix several times while I was grinding there. I had just put Strong on it for a water boss, so I was wondering if it could tank Blackhole now. Couldn't do it in heavy gear. Switched to mag/arcane and full channel gear (only 12% total) and had to full spam heal (as in I was mashing down the heal button and terrified to let go), but it worked. I did all the bosses in the OHT quest chain myself at the level I got the quests. I even did a few before my level for higher level friends.

At 93, when I get Blackhole for my daily, I put Soul Degen on at the start of the fight, then time Amp to land whenever the phoenix's stun does. Occasionally I'll start thinking it's a little harder than I remember, then notice I still have one might ring on.

2-3 Fataliqua I first tried at 83 or 84 and couldn't do it (I'd done a bunch of runs in 2-1 and 2-2 so was wondering how hard 2-3 would be, and a friend had just made level 90). I started doing it in earnest at 86 or 87 for my and my friends' TT90 gear. Tough fight, couple deaths when I lagged or accidentally thought it was 2-2 and tried to NG for mana. I'd have to ask my level 90 friend to help heal every min or two, so sometimes we'd switch up and she would heal while I debuff/attacked. She's arcane but had less channeling than me, so sometimes I had to help heal too. He got a lot easier at 89 when I upgraded to a Requiem Blade.

Here's my mag/channel equipment set. A lot of low level stuff there I'm looking to finally upgrade (have two new rings waiting at 94):
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=432f117ec6f4b677
Edit: By the time you're 90, you should be close to 5k rep even if you haven't been working on rep. Once you reach 5k, head to DWP and talk to the rank guy there to receive the level 60 robe with -3% channel.

Cornelia_Ue - Sanctuary

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if you go heavy early you are severly limiting what you can do, because equips with a lot of stats are hard to come by early in game, and because the increased defense you get isn't all that spectacular. your magic attack will be severely limited and you will have to chose between armor for your level or weapon for you level. lower level armors are not as bad as a lower level weapon, a lvl 60 using a lvl 40 weapon is pretty useless, and doing so just to say you are a HA veno is kinda dumb.

I started my HA veno from the beginning and i will continue with it till the end.
In my journey i have found that if you can for see the battles to come the victories outcome should be no different due to the fact that your ability to survive is based on the mental out put which of course correlate to how you have built your character.

My Current veno with stats being as they truly are no exaggerations or unobtainable items/gear.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9e884d68686799cd

And trust and believe my build has not limited my limits, but rather expanded my horizon.

b:heartMy HA Veno Breakdownb:heart

Barbs: can't do enough damage to me. I feed off their health Leech (lv2)

Mage Venos: don't do enough damage to hurt me. I Purge their bramble and normal attack to finish them off.

BM's: Bahahah you have sutra i have Soul transfusion and Bramble; the quicker you attack the quicker do fall.

Sins: Same as BM

Now your thinking this is all fine and dandy, but what of PVE, well two words: I PWN
I can take on an extra mob while my pet deals with another and if need be even stop to heal my pet from 25% health to 75%.

But hey a HA veno is only as dumb as it's creator. b:chuckle

kenlee

get too 100 and do that again
most classes dont even have their essential skills at that lvl