Pure Dex and 6k HP

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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    oh you have no idea what goes on between us Teapot
    b:chuckleb:chuckle

    I try to stay out of there...
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    but Teapot! I love how you're not against the idea at all~ *records dirty affair with camera*

    I never said that. You are the one reading so much into her statement =)
  • Kireina - Dreamweaver
    Kireina - Dreamweaver Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    10characters

    Don't know how bad it gets at late 90s, but so far even when "blasting" sparks and whatnot in FC/BH the holding aggro doesn't seem to be an issue for the tank.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    No, in the case of Belial all of what you say isn't neccessarily true.

    so tl;dr version: It only counts in the case of a few bosses. Doesn't seem like a very solid tank to me.
    [SIGPIC]lol[/SIGPIC]
  • Absoluth - Heavens Tear
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear Posts: 764 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kireina - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Thousands? Lol wat. Lunar doesn't contribute to HP except for the cape. And I'm assuming that 6k+ you see so commonly is with buffs.
    Boot also has nice HP add, aswell as the arc helm. Also, the HP refines are very helpful.
    You assumed wrong. I do over 95% of my BHs without barb. Do a few 90+ BHs and you'll notice the cash shoppers/hardcore marketeers. Its alot easier doing 90+ bh than 80+.
    Yeah I call bs on better than Barb. Mind explaining me how an Archer with from 8k (which is at least 5k less and a ton less Def) is better than a Barb?
    Its obvious and others already said it...
    - Impossible to steal agro from a DD stronger than yourself
    - Other DDs can go all-out on the boss, meaning a faster kill
    - Unlike barbs and BMs, archers dont use charms for certain instances. So when they do BH and have to tank, they're not forced to use that charm (since you cant unequip) and wont be complaining every god dam second when it ticks.
    - Instances like eden are filled with ranged mobs. Most of the runs i did with barb/bm they ran into other mobs when their targets started running and sometimes led to ppl dying. With ranged classes tanking, that issue is solved since the mob will never move and thus never agro more than what we planned on.
    Don't know how bad it gets at late 90s, but so far even when "blasting" sparks and whatnot in FC/BH the holding aggro doesn't seem to be an issue for the tank.
    I never did a FF run on which the barb/bm could hold agro on my AoEs on mobs or sparks in bosses, and i used a crappy +3 elite 88 bow. Im talking about STRONG tanks with bramble.
    PWI:
    "Free to play. Pay to win"

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kireina - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Don't know how bad it gets at late 90s, but so far even when "blasting" sparks and whatnot in FC/BH the holding aggro doesn't seem to be an issue for the tank.

    This surprises me. Can you post your build on http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ ?
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I never did a FF run on which the barb/bm could hold agro on my AoEs on mobs or sparks in bosses, and i used a crappy +3 elite 88 bow. Im talking about STRONG tanks with bramble.
    if u go all out from the beginning, it's not hard to steal aggro from a tank.
    I don't need to spark, just spam gush/pyro and bye bye aggro from tank if I start that from beginning. But a good DD knows how to pace his dmg to do the max possible without causing the tank to lose aggro, no matter if the tank is good or bad.
    I usually wait until the boss HP is about 20 gone to nuke the **** out of it with sparks/undine/posion, etc.
    And FC mobs, ofc barb is not keeping aggro. Mobs are gathered by barb, stunned and dragoned by BM and then it's your (and my) job to take them down and swallow a couple of hits. We're into the mid 90s for heaven's sake, if we can't hold on to some green mo-fo in instances we'd better play solitaire.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kireina - Dreamweaver
    Kireina - Dreamweaver Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Boot also has nice HP add, aswell as the arc helm. Also, the HP refines are very helpful.
    You assumed wrong. I do over 95% of my BHs without barb. Do a few 90+ BHs and you'll notice the cash shoppers/hardcore marketeers. Its alot easier doing 90+ bh than 80+.


    Its obvious and others already said it...
    - Impossible to steal agro from a DD stronger than yourself
    - Other DDs can go all-out on the boss, meaning a faster kill

    Isn't this contradicting? If a DD stronger than you hits it, won't it converge then? In your example the tanking Archer also has to be the heaviest hitter.

    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    This surprises me. Can you post your build on http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ ?

    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=87f1569fe6403faa

    I know, ****. Have been saving and directing all my income to TT90 / Heaven Shatterer.
    [SIGPIC]lol[/SIGPIC]
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    The only thing DD's cant pull aggro on is a Herc in HH. Overpowered pets dont have any damage reduction (go figure?)

    If I only wait for sharpened tooth's cooldown before I start I often enough pull Fataliqua's aggro off a herc. So I like waiting a bit longer and I like standing where I can jump down, just in case.
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Its obvious and others already said it...
    - Impossible to steal agro from a DD stronger than yourself

    I disagree with this, also. If you get enough high damage crits in a row, you can pull aggro from another DD even thought that DD has a higher average physical attack.
  • Tomiko - Heavens Tear
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    You guys are picking this apart way too much. Whichever DD can hold agro on the boss the best and ensure party safety at the same time tanks the boss. This can be a demon fist blademaster, an archer, a herc, a wizard, or even the freaking barb. Why have a barb in tigerform when he can go humanoid and get more damage and get the mess over with quicker. That's all there is to it. It's about getting it done fast and efficient. You do *not* need a barb in tigerform to tank everything in this game lol.
  • Absoluth - Heavens Tear
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear Posts: 764 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    if u go all out from the beginning, it's not hard to steal aggro from a tank.
    I don't need to spark, just spam gush/pyro and bye bye aggro from tank if I start that from beginning. But a good DD knows how to pace his dmg to do the max possible without causing the tank to lose aggro, no matter if the tank is good or bad.
    I usually wait until the boss HP is about 20 gone to nuke the **** out of it with sparks/undine/posion, etc.
    And FC mobs, ofc barb is not keeping aggro. Mobs are gathered by barb, stunned and dragoned by BM and then it's your (and my) job to take them down and swallow a couple of hits. We're into the mid 90s for heaven's sake, if we can't hold on to some green mo-fo in instances we'd better play solitaire.
    Very nice agro lesson, yet completely unnecessary and off my point.
    Kireina - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Isn't this contradicting? If a DD stronger than you hits it, won't it converge then? In your example the tanking Archer also has to be the heaviest hitter.
    When did i say i was the tanking archer?
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I disagree with this, also. If you get enough high damage crits in a row, you can pull aggro from another DD even thought that DD has a higher average physical attack.
    Obviously if you start together with the guy, theres a probability of you hitting a few crits and stealing agro. Thats where the "if you dont want agro, hold a bit" DD 101 lesson comes in. Just a bit diferent from other kinds of tanks (like waiting till 80~65% depending on bar~b/bm/veno power). For instance, the archer i mentioned on an earlier post that tanked eden. He had a far superior bow, so i started like 3 secs after him, sparked whenever i could and i didnt steal agro once. Boss went down extremely fast.
    PWI:
    "Free to play. Pay to win"

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kireina - Dreamweaver
    Kireina - Dreamweaver Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »

    When did i say i was the tanking archer?

    The "you" here was a reference to the perspective of a tanking DD. I thought you had competent conversational skills. Apparently I shouldn't make this assumption.

    So the scope in which tanking Archers are useful is very narrow. Belial and some ranged bosses and the tanking Archer has to have a better weapon than the BMs/Archers in the squad. I think it's easier to find a Barb rather than to fill that particular requirement. "!@Looking for Archer to tank __, must have +9 or higher CV bow - PM me" b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC]lol[/SIGPIC]
  • Tomiko - Heavens Tear
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Kireina - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    So the scope in which tanking Archers are useful is very narrow. Belial and some ranged bosses and the tanking Archer has to have a better weapon than the BMs/Archers in the squad. I think it's easier to find a Barb rather than to fill that particular requirement. "!@Looking for Archer to tank __, must have +9 or higher CV bow - PM me" b:chuckle

    1) Barbs at 95+ are hard to find, and even harder to find to help. By level 100 a barb has a high chance to go MIA. It's the nature of the barb, it has a high drop out rate. You don't see this because you are level 86.

    2) Belial the archer doesn't need anything but enough physical defense and hp to tank it. Again, you don't see this because you are level 86.

    3) The tanking archer is obviously the one with the best gear. If they have superior hp, more than likely they have a superior weapon. This is a bit of a no-brainer.

    4) You still don't get the picture. It doesn't matter if you have 5 barbs and 1 archer in the party. If the archer can tank it, then the archer tanking it is better. It allows the mob to be killed quicker.

    5) The scope of mobs that are archer tankable is not narrow at all. Again, you don't see this because you are level 86. Try getting to level 90+ and grouping with a 10k+ hp archer and you will find an archer is the preferred tank for many mobs. It can maintain agro very effectively and it can do this at range.
  • Kireina - Dreamweaver
    Kireina - Dreamweaver Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    1) Barbs at 95+ are hard to find, and even harder to find to help. By level 100 a barb has a high chance to go MIA. It's the nature of the barb, it has a high drop out rate. You don't see this because you are level 86.

    I see plenty in my Guild window and I have certainly TTed with plenty of 9x Barbs. Maybe HT is less blessed with Barbs, I don't know. It's usually the Clerics that fall out here.
    2) Belial the archer doesn't need anything but enough physical defense and hp to tank it. Again, you don't see this because you are level 86.

    Have done Belial, so I have seen it. Stop assuming things.
    3) The tanking archer is obviously the one with the best gear. If they have superior hp, more than likely they have a superior weapon. This is a bit of a no-brainer.

    Why is this a given? You're telling me that if I were to focus all my income into upgrading my CV Bow to +10 while more or less neglecting my other items, magically I'll be a good tank? Will Primeval Stones drop from the sky and into my armor? If so, I'll be sure to look out for that.

    4) You still don't get the picture. It doesn't matter if you have 5 barbs and 1 archer in the party. If the archer can tank it, then the archer tanking it is better. It allows the mob to be killed quicker.

    I wasn't addressing this now.

    5) The scope of mobs that are archer tankable is not narrow at all. Again, you don't see this because you are level 86. Try getting to level 90+ and grouping with a 10k+ hp archer and you will find an archer is the preferred tank for many mobs. It can maintain agro very effectively and it can do this at range.

    Mobs =/= bosses. l2read. Ofcourse we'll tank normal/elites ourselves. You don't need to be 9x to figure that out. You act as if Archers are godly tankers- they're not. They only perform well under certain circumstances.
    [SIGPIC]lol[/SIGPIC]
  • Tomiko - Heavens Tear
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    lol...lol....nvm. I and others have tried to educate you. You aren't worth the time anymore. stfu noob and go level up. the end.

    BTW, I've played this game two years, how long have you played it?...
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You guys are picking this apart way too much. Whichever DD can hold agro on the boss the best and ensure party safety at the same time tanks the boss. This can be a demon fist blademaster, an archer, a herc, a wizard, or even the freaking barb. Why have a barb in tigerform when he can go humanoid and get more damage and get the mess over with quicker. That's all there is to it. It's about getting it done fast and efficient. You do *not* need a barb in tigerform to tank everything in this game lol.

    lol ever seen a lvl 79 panda arma to keep aggro on feng in 2-2?

    he likes to time for me dragonsb:cute

    and wachin the clerics twich a little is always funny
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Absoluth - Heavens Tear
    Absoluth - Heavens Tear Posts: 764 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    . .
    PWI:
    "Free to play. Pay to win"

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    People, learn to read what each other are saying.

    This ridiculous argument should have ended with this:
    Tomiko - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You guys are picking this apart way too much. Whichever DD can hold agro on the boss the best and ensure party safety at the same time tanks the boss. This can be a demon fist blademaster, an archer, a herc, a wizard, or even the freaking barb. Why have a barb in tigerform when he can go humanoid and get more damage and get the mess over with quicker. That's all there is to it. It's about getting it done fast and efficient. You do *not* need a barb in tigerform to tank everything in this game lol.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    testing new sigggg
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Collapse - Harshlands
    Collapse - Harshlands Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    testing new sigggg

    i love it b:dirty
    Currently playing : |||| Waiting for:
    Allods |||||| G.W.2
    GW
    Bloodline Champions
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If I only wait for sharpened tooth's cooldown before I start I often enough pull Fataliqua's aggro off a herc. So I like waiting a bit longer and I like standing where I can jump down, just in case.



    I disagree with this, also. If you get enough high damage crits in a row, you can pull aggro from another DD even thought that DD has a higher average physical attack.

    Ok... I'll give you the Herc bit. If you do attack without letting the Herc deal some damage you can pull Aggro. However, in the long run, even you must agree that it is impossible to pull aggro from a Herc in HH/TT/Lunar instances where everything but a legendary pet suffers damage reduction.



    As for the second point yes, with enough high damage crits. Thankfully archers crit consistently enough to keep aggro though.
    Kireina - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Have done Belial, so I have seen it. Stop assuming things.



    Why is this a given? You're telling me that if I were to focus all my income into upgrading my CV Bow to +10 while more or less neglecting my other items, magically I'll be a good tank? Will Primeval Stones drop from the sky and into my armor? If so, I'll be sure to look out for that.


    Mobs =/= bosses. l2read. Ofcourse we'll tank normal/elites ourselves. You don't need to be 9x to figure that out. You act as if Archers are godly tankers- they're not. They only perform well under certain circumstances.


    Unfortunately again, many of us who are in our 9x's understand the situation far better than you do.


    None of us are saying archers are godly tankers. If you would take a moment and attempt to understand what we are saying you would clearly see that.


    What is being said is: Ranged Classes become preferred tankers in a wide assortment of situations.

    Archers obviously arent built to Tank World Bosses like the Harpy Wraith, nor FB99 bosses, lunar bosses, and some GV (Rebirth for the newcommers) bosses. Nobody who has spoken thus far is saying that.


    But in many situations where bosses deal ranged damage - have large AOE's, and in general are tankable within an Archers HP, archers become the preferred tankers.


    Why?

    (1): Ranged monsters dont run away when ranged classes tank - prevents running away from a big angry mob of monsters when only trying to kill 1.


    (2): Speed of a boss kill - When DD in general can tank, and do tank, they dont have to hold back. Everyone can be amping - debuffing, using sage/demon sparks whenever possible, drastically cutting down on the time needed to make kills.


    (3): Prevents deaths. When a DD accidentally pulls aggro, they get
    clobbered, then clerics can get clobbered (Belial), then you have a party wipe. If you just made the DD tank, they dont get clobbered, your clerics are left unscathed, and you are one big happy party!


    (4): Keeps costs down. When a DD tanks, clerics can safely heal from a range outside of any AOE's (provided the monster is a ranged one). No charm ticks (besides MP), and no un-neccessary pot abuse.














    Its quite simple, if a ranged class can tank, and can hold aggro without much effort, then they tank better than a Barbarian. If a Barbarian can hold aggro without unwanted side-effects then all the more power to them.

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