Sage or Demon Veno

Aeyris - Sanctuary

Can any tell me the benefits or disadvantages to each of them?

I am not a fox form veno, I'm a mage build; if this helps any.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Big difference:

Sage has good, constant damage.

Demon has much higher damage than sage, however you can't count on it, its very random and unrealiable.

Demon gives a speed boost when you use foxform however its worthless with genies and holy path.

Sage gives a phy def boost in foxform, which is useful when you can't run away.

tweakz

On the West Side of Thousand Streams is a forge for skills with descriptions of those skills. Your first 3 to obtain would be Ironwood, Venemous, and Foxform. For the most part, Demon tends deal less reliable results while Sage is more stable. That doesn't mean Sage is more powerful.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

It's mostly in your playstyle. Some people like Demon for that wicked spike damage that is totally and completely Hax! And some people, like myself, opt for the more consistent, less chi-heavy, more defensive Sage skills. The Damage of demon = HAX! The Defense of Sage = HAX! The choice is yours young padawan. ^^;;

ecatomb.net is your best friend it has a skill listing that tells what each Sage/Demon skill does. Also there are more then just 3 skills for sage/demon at 89, the others are just VERY rare drops/hard to find, not even sure if they are around.

Sage/Demon skills are learned at lelves 89, 92, and 99 from what I have seen.

HolyInferno - Sanctuary

I used to think that demon/sage was all about a person "play style". I no longer believe this. I will not call demon venos "fail" but honestly, I have to say demon venos have made the wrong choice, not by their own fault but a new implementation we like to call, the genies.

Let's just observe the 1st three skills of the sage/demon venomancers

1. Venomous scarab (demon) - 30% wood reduction for 6 seconds.
1. Venomous scarab (sage) - 20% chance to gain 30 chi
+Extreme poison - 20% damage increase on target for 10 seconds. This will not only apply to you but your pets and all other Team members.

(damage increase + chi > damage increase)


2. Fox form (demon) - 60% speed increase for 6 seconds after transformation
2. Fox form (sage) - a 150% phys def increase + 250% acc. increase
+ Holy Path - 15 m/s movement speed for you and all pt members in 10 meter rradius for 6 seconds.

(movement speed + defense > movement speed)

3. Ironwood scarab (demon) - has a CHANCE to reduce phys def by 40% and a 20% chance to reduce phy def to 0.
3. Ironwood scarab (sage) - reduce phys def by 40% for 20 seconds.
+ Myriad rainbow (venomancer form)- chance to cause phys break (100% phys res decrease) mag break (100% mag res decrease) poison dot, bleed dot.

(this one has no excuse of a genie. The veno human form 79 skill does what demon ironwood does. and its INSTANT CAST)



So to summarize. A sage veno can get every little perk the demon gets but gets also the sage perks. Think about it b:cute

Reivi - Sanctuary

to be complete on the subject

FB89 eden is much more farmable than brimstone ( you do eden if demon, brimstone for sage)

the 1st 3 books drop on the bosses in here, sage books in brimstone, demons in eden...

you ll have more chance to find for a low price demon books.

(thats not a good reason to go demon, ..but thats one i saw a veno took )

Mothergoose - Sanctuary

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's mostly in your playstyle. Some people like Demon for that wicked spike damage that is totally and completely Hax! And some people, like myself, opt for the more consistent, less chi-heavy, more defensive Sage skills. The Damage of demon = HAX! The Defense of Sage = HAX! The choice is yours young padawan. ^^;;

ecatomb.net is your best friend it has a skill listing that tells what each Sage/Demon skill does. Also there are more then just 3 skills for sage/demon at 89, the others are just VERY rare drops/hard to find, not even sure if they are around.

Sage/Demon skills are learned at lelves 89, 92, and 99 from what I have seen.

It has to do with demon ironwood, which has 20% chance of reducing pdef to 0. Armor break + fleshream = death.

Although demon ironwood only get 20% success rate, which means most of the time, it won't do anything at all. Myriad rainbow can also give armor break, plus also mind break, without sacrificing the reliable debuff normal ironwood gives.

Besides, a lot of people underestimate the value of the additional chi sage gets. Parasitic Nova is aoe, seals, and hits big number. Overall, I would say sage is actually preferable to demon for venomancer.

tweakz

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's mostly in your playstyle. Some people like Demon for that wicked spike damage that is totally and completely Hax! And some people, like myself, opt for the more consistent, less chi-heavy, more defensive Sage skills. The Damage of demon = HAX! The Defense of Sage = HAX! The choice is yours young padawan. ^^;;

ecatomb.net is your best friend it has a skill listing that tells what each Sage/Demon skill does. Also there are more then just 3 skills for sage/demon at 89, the others are just VERY rare drops/hard to find, not even sure if they are around.

Sage/Demon skills are learned at lelves 89, 92, and 99 from what I have seen.

Forgot about ecotomb when posting, - good reference!

Yes, those 3 sage books for us are rare / hard to obtain! I hate Brimstone, but love farming Eden. I was buying my skills 3 levels ahead but ended up paying over 6.5m for Sage Venemous Scarab when I finally found it after turning 89! Imagine being 92 before finding it, then not having enough coin. (possibility)

HolyInferno wrote:

I have to say demon venos have made the wrong choice, not by their own fault but a new implementation we like to call, the genies.

Genies are a coin sink I can do without.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

On the West Side of Thousand Streams is a forge for skills with descriptions of those skills. Your first 3 to obtain would be Ironwood, Venemous, and Foxform. For the most part, Demon tends deal less reliable results while Sage is more stable. That doesn't mean Sage is more powerful.

HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »

I used to think that demon/sage was all about a person "play style". I no longer believe this. I will not call demon venos "fail" but honestly, I have to say demon venos have made the wrong choice, not by their own fault but a new implementation we like to call, the genies.

Let's just observe the 1st three skills of the sage/demon venomancers

1. Venomous scarab (demon) - 30% wood reduction for 6 seconds.
1. Venomous scarab (sage) - 20% chance to gain 30 chi
+Extreme poison - 20% damage increase on target for 10 seconds. This will not only apply to you but your pets and all other Team members.

(damage increase + chi > damage increase)


2. Fox form (demon) - 60% speed increase for 6 seconds after transformation
2. Fox form (sage) - a 150% phys def increase + 250% acc. increase
+ Holy Path - 15 m/s movement speed for you and all pt members in 10 meter rradius for 6 seconds.

(movement speed + defense > movement speed)

3. Ironwood scarab (demon) - has a CHANCE to reduce phys def by 40% and a 20% chance to reduce phy def to 0.
3. Ironwood scarab (sage) - reduce phys def by 40% for 20 seconds.
+ Myriad rainbow (venomancer form)- chance to cause phys break (100% phys res decrease) mag break (100% mag res decrease) poison dot, bleed dot.

(this one has no excuse of a genie. The veno human form 79 skill does what demon ironwood does. and its INSTANT CAST)



So to summarize. A sage veno can get every little perk the demon gets but gets also the sage perks. Think about it b:cute

Genie Skills are Advantages to everyone as almsot ALL of the Skills Stack with all of our other skills. Thus making Demon Venos hit even harder. Don't try to tell me it doesn't I've seen the differences in Safe and Demon wit hthe skills go off.

Also, don't forget, sages skills for gaining chi or not losing chi on skills is also only CHANCE not garantee.

HolyInferno - Sanctuary

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Genie Skills are Advantages to everyone as almsot ALL of the Skills Stack with all of our other skills. Thus making Demon Venos hit even harder. Don't try to tell me it doesn't I've seen the differences in Safe and Demon wit hthe skills go off.

Also, don't forget, sages skills for gaining chi or not losing chi on skills is also only CHANCE not garantee.

Okay, so if it's damage you want to talk about lets talk damage.

#1. PvE? - sage wins. why? chi. yes, venomous only has a chance to gain 30 @ 20% but in long TTs and FBs, it makes a difference trust me. Faster chi gain = faster 3 spark = massive damage. Sage spark is a 900% base magic attk inc. On top of which we get the 50 chi every minute skill. Awesome. Ontop of which we have a CONSTANT 40% phys def decrease for our pets + any phy attk member we have in pt.


#2. PvP? - last I checked, venos arent the best magic damage class out there. In fact we are the worst. So, where does out damage output come from? Our nixes. 40% constant phys def debuff on target with our nix on it and our chance for armr break with myriad rainbow will devestate any class. On top of which, any real impact magic attk wise on our target will come from 3 sparking, where chi gaining abilities come into play.


so, what what now? Trade all that for a hope for 30% wood damge debuff + extreme poison , which is all i see as the only benefit demons have. NTY

tweakz

Also, don't forget, sages skills for gaining chi or not losing chi on skills is also only CHANCE not garantee.

[QUOTE=http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php]Skill
Master Li's Technique
Cooldown 60.0 seconds

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Charge and gain 50 Chi instantly.[/QUOTE]

-No chance.

Brael - Dreamweaver

I think there's only one reason to go sage, but it happens to be a big reason, atleast big enough for me to go sage. Soul Degeneration, a 20% hp debuff is pretty hard to compete against. I know archers have 16, and some archers will have 20 but still. Outside of that, demon crushes sage (only looking at pve aspects here).

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

-No chance.

EVERY Sage Character gets that skill.


The Demon's Get a Skill that STEALS 50 Chi from someone else? Sooo what? lol. Also I was talking abput the Venomancer Skills only.

@HolyInferno: Hey heyt easy off I'm going Sage anyway, I've been set on Sage since my early 50s. I'm still maintaining that it is in your playstyle what suits your character better with Sage or Demon. Because, each skill benefits you in a DIFFERENT way.

Peritia - Lost City

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

EVERY Sage Character gets that skill.


The Demon's Get a Skill that STEALS 50 Chi from someone else? Sooo what? lol.

Last I checked, the Demon skill reduces the opponent's Chi by 50, not steals it.

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

Last I checked, the Demon skill reduces the opponent's Chi by 50, not steals it.

Really? I thought it stole it. Hmm wel lthats kinda fail. XD I don't know I've never had a Demon Char. All of my other Characters were Sage. o.o; I stand corrected! I'm only human.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm only human.

Nope, you are only untammed, if you were only human you would be a wizard or a BM.

I will be going Sage, it fits my playing style much better.

Alphae - Lost City

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think there's only one reason to go sage, but it happens to be a big reason, atleast big enough for me to go sage. Soul Degeneration, a 20% hp debuff is pretty hard to compete against. I know archers have 16, and some archers will have 20 but still. Outside of that, demon crushes sage (only looking at pve aspects here).

I'm going to miss this when I go demon x.x But I do rather enjoy archers, they're a lot of fun.

But I agree, besides soul degen (which is a great skill just in and of itself) demon is by far the superior choice for my playing style. Lengthens amp, strengthens bramble (huge help for tank, herc style refect), shortens the time I can use my grace-transfuse-metabolic combo in, adds a debuff to my most used mage spell.

I'm a defensive player already. I don't need more defense, and the biggest defensive reason to go sage, fox form, is moot to me because I will remain arcane at 90, 99, etc... %ages suck.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Me using arcane armor was a big reason I went sage. It makes up for the physical defense I lack. Sage foxform gives me 20% more phy damage reduction.

1815 physical defense normally 32%
4038 with sage fox 52%

That's quite a large boost.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear

does anyone know what sage summer sprint does? description tells it removes negative effects. so is that = purify?

tweakz

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

does anyone know what sage summer sprint does? description tells it removes negative effects. so is that = purify?

In the tool tip it doesn't even mention that attribute. It's "always grants a 150% physical defense increase anda 250% accuracy increase."

-and yes, anda is not spaced just like that.

ajgg1

tweakz wrote: »

In the tool tip it doesn't even mention that attribute. It's "always grants a 150% physical defense increase anda 250% accuracy increase."

-and yes, anda is not spaced just like that.

lolwut?


i think you missed the target of his question tweakyboy b:laugh

tweakz

ajgg1 wrote: »

lolwut?


i think you missed the target of his question tweakyboy b:laugh

Lol, yup. That was for foxform. b:shutup

NhiNhanh - Lost City

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

does anyone know what sage summer sprint does? description tells it removes negative effects. so is that = purify?

yes it acts as purify, (u still get speed bonus though 45%)

XKIAx - Heavens Tear

HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »

Trade all that for a hope for 30% wood damge debuff + extreme poison , which is all i see as the only benefit demons have. NTY

That skill gives a 100% chance for a debuff. Only time it does not debuff, is when your target is already debuffed. (Does not extend the debuff).

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think there's only one reason to go sage, but it happens to be a big reason, atleast big enough for me to go sage. Soul Degeneration, a 20% hp debuff is pretty hard to compete against. I know archers have 16, and some archers will have 20 but still. Outside of that, demon crushes sage (only looking at pve aspects here).

Just remember that those books are not easy to get. Only venomous/ironwood/foxform are easy to get

Brael - Dreamweaver

Eventually they won't be hard to get. Besides, I've seen a few of the harder tomes to get for sale, too bad they've all been demon or I would have bought them.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear

HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »

I used to think that demon/sage was all about a person "play style". I no longer believe this. I will not call demon venos "fail" but honestly, I have to say demon venos have made the wrong choice, not by their own fault but a new implementation we like to call, the genies.

Let's just observe the 1st three skills of the sage/demon venomancers

1. Venomous scarab (demon) - 30% wood reduction for 6 seconds.
1. Venomous scarab (sage) - 20% chance to gain 30 chi
+Extreme poison - 20% damage increase on target for 10 seconds. This will not only apply to you but your pets and all other Team members.

(damage increase + chi > damage increase)


2. Fox form (demon) - 60% speed increase for 6 seconds after transformation
2. Fox form (sage) - a 150% phys def increase + 250% acc. increase
+ Holy Path - 15 m/s movement speed for you and all pt members in 10 meter rradius for 6 seconds.

(movement speed + defense > movement speed)

3. Ironwood scarab (demon) - has a CHANCE to reduce phys def by 40% and a 20% chance to reduce phy def to 0.
3. Ironwood scarab (sage) - reduce phys def by 40% for 20 seconds.
+ Myriad rainbow (venomancer form)- chance to cause phys break (100% phys res decrease) mag break (100% mag res decrease) poison dot, bleed dot.

(this one has no excuse of a genie. The veno human form 79 skill does what demon ironwood does. and its INSTANT CAST)



So to summarize. A sage veno can get every little perk the demon gets but gets also the sage perks. Think about it b:cute

You left out some facts. Genie skills do have some of the same effects as the Demon versions of some veno skills. However, Genies have a limited amount of energy and you have to wait to recast their skills. I can keep up the Demon Venomous 30% wood debuff constantly and add in amp+ extreme poison to up my damage and my squad's damage.

As for Fox Form, this is really based on your play style. I'm pure arcane so I don't spend much time in fox form except when amping/purging or rushing through mobs. So, the extra phys def and acc doesn't really help me that much. However, the speed from Demon Fox Form helps in a lot of ways. With that speed boost+ summer sprint, I run at 9.9 m/s. I don't need a mount to get around and I can run that fast in dungeons. That helps me do TT/FB runs faster and get away from mobs if things go wrong. And yes, Holy Path does make you go faster, but you can only use it twice, maybe three times, before you have to wait for the genie to regen it's energy. I can keep up the 9.9 speed indefintly and still regen mana while switching from fox to human and vice versa because of my high mana regen.

As for Ironwood, I don't see why everyone is so reliant on that debuff. Take a look at how much extra damage your pet will actually do with Sage Ironwood. Maybe 500 per hit. That's not going to help kill any faster and it won't help your pet keep aggro much either since your pet keeps aggro through skills more than raw damage. If you're in a squad, Clerics have the same debuff and Barbs have a better phys res debuff. The 79 human skill does do the same debuff as Demon Ironwood, but I thought all you Sage Venos prided yourselves on CONSTANT, RELIABLE damage? The 79 skills are the exact opposite of that. You don't know if ANY of the status effects will trigger and it costs 800 mp per cast. Plus, the instant cast of the skill just means your mp will drain that much faster.

The last issue is Chi. Venos are the least chi dependant class in the game. I have no trouble building chi when I need it. When grinding, sparking actually slows down your kill speed and you'd be better off saving the chi if you need a quick bramble hood. In TT/FB runs, I'm more prone to save my chi for a Bramble Hood if needed or to pass to the tank or cleric during boss battles. And again, during boss battles I have no problem building a spark every 60 seconds to pass to the tank every time Lending Hand finishes its cooldown. I will admit Sage has better chi management in PvP, but keep in mind there are apoth pots that grant 2 sparks instantly. Also, Demon Nova grants 30% more damage to targets while they're sealed/stunned. Demon Venos may not be able to Nova as much, but our Nova is like sealing, stunning, and amping everything in range at once.

I am not saying that Sage sucks and Demon is better. It's just that this forum is decidedly slanted toward Sage path for Venos and I wanted to lay out the benefits for Demon so others would have all the information and make the choice that suits them.

Waterfal - Sanctuary

hmmm, I've been wondering for a while now, what I will choose when I get to the lvl to decide.
at first thought demon, then thought sage, still don't know what is best for me.
but Vidalaire, (don't know if I get it right) you actually say, that demon is "better" for arcane veno.
I'm an arcane veno and actually don't use foxform...
I once put up a list of all skills what benefits a rather have.
I picked mostely demon skills... further I actually don't pvp...
maybe anyone can help me a bit with what is best for my playstyle? b:surrender

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear

I am not saying that Sage sucks and Demon is better. It's just that this forum is decidedly slanted toward Sage path for Venos and I wanted to lay out the benefits for Demon so others would have all the information and make the choice that suits them.

I never said Demon was better in any way, shape, or form. I just wanted to give a different side to the Sage/Demon debate. Mostly all you see on these forums is "Demon Ironwood sucks. Go Sage." I just wanted to provide a differing opinion so others could decide for themselves.

Alphae - Lost City

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I never said Demon was better in any way, shape, or form. I just wanted to give a different side to the Sage/Demon debate. Mostly all you see on these forums is "Demon Ironwood sucks. Go Sage." I just wanted to provide a differing opinion so others could decide for themselves.

It's good of you to post an informative Demon-slanted post. It's hard for people who don't know what to choose to make a decision when all they get is stuff slanted to one side.

I personally prefer demon for exactly the reasons you stated, plus namely the cooldown bonuses on metabolic and nature's grace, and the higher reflect value on bramble guard. First is useful (very much so) in grinding, while the second is very useful in squad to to your tank.

Arshies - Sanctuary

Tearvalerin did a guide with the sage/demon skill comparations
Link here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2079531&postcount=2

HolyInferno - Sanctuary

As for Fox Form, this is really based on your play style. I'm pure arcane so I don't spend much time in fox form except when amping/purging or rushing through mobs. So, the extra phys def and acc doesn't really help me that much. However, the speed from Demon Fox Form helps in a lot of ways. With that speed boost+ summer sprint, I run at 9.9 m/s. I don't need a mount to get around and I can run that fast in dungeons. That helps me do TT/FB runs faster and get away from mobs if things go wrong. And yes, Holy Path does make you go faster, but you can only use it twice, maybe three times, before you have to wait for the genie to regen it's energy. I can keep up the 9.9 speed indefintly and still regen mana while switching from fox to human and vice versa because of my high mana regen.

Regardless of spending that much time in foxform, i would have to say being able to amp up your phys def a significant amount would make you a heck of a lot more versatile player dont you think? Especially when survivabilty is in question from a physical attacking mob and/or aoe-ing boss. As for speed, seeing as you love running around in a dungeon so quickly, do you solo everything? At a point that no longer becomes possible (TT3-2, 3-3, lunar, frost). So as quick as YOU might be, that only leaves more time for you to sit around and wait for the snail paced clerics and wizards to catch up, so I don't see that much of a benefit in hurry up to wait scenerio. The only place that I can think of that will benefit your added speed would be RB Delta run quests, which can easily be taken care of with some charger orbs and fast regen-ing genies with holy path.

As for Ironwood, I don't see why everyone is so reliant on that debuff. Take a look at how much extra damage your pet will actually do with Sage Ironwood. Maybe 500 per hit. That's not going to help kill any faster and it won't help your pet keep aggro much either since your pet keeps aggro through skills more than raw damage. If you're in a squad, Clerics have the same debuff and Barbs have a better phys res debuff. The 79 human skill does do the same debuff as Demon Ironwood, but I thought all you Sage Venos prided yourselves on CONSTANT, RELIABLE damage? The 79 skills are the exact opposite of that. You don't know if ANY of the status effects will trigger and it costs 800 mp per cast. Plus, the instant cast of the skill just means your mp will drain that much faster.

Again I must disagree with your arguement. Add 500 a hit on your pet. Put that into perspective on a [?] mob or boss. A pet hits(im gonna pull a number out of the sky) 300 times during a boss hit. 300 * 500 = 150 ,000 damage. On a boss with 4 mil hp, I'd say that is a nice little boost, no? On top of which, in TT and such, this benfits melee classes such as barbs, bms and archers. Cleric debuffs are weaker and barbs have better things to do than spam that skill.

And my point of the venomancer 79 skill had nothing to do with constant reliable damage. My arguement was basically that the debuff which demon ironwood is only good for is available to any other veno sage demon or neither. and 800 mana is equivalent to half a pot that you can pick up dozens of in an hr of grinding, so it isnt a tremendous cost like you make it out to be.

The last issue is Chi. Venos are the least chi dependant class in the game. I have no trouble building chi when I need it. When grinding, sparking actually slows down your kill speed and you'd be better off saving the chi if you need a quick bramble hood. In TT/FB runs, I'm more prone to save my chi for a Bramble Hood if needed or to pass to the tank or cleric during boss battles. And again, during boss battles I have no problem building a spark every 60 seconds to pass to the tank every time Lending Hand finishes its cooldown. I will admit Sage has better chi management in PvP, but keep in mind there are apoth pots that grant 2 sparks instantly. Also, Demon Nova grants 30% more damage to targets while they're sealed/stunned. Demon Venos may not be able to Nova as much, but our Nova is like sealing, stunning, and amping everything in range at once.

As non dependant on chi as we are, 3 spark is definitely a tool that is PURE DAMAGE. Every other class gets a little perk from their 3 sparks. We, however, only get raw damage. So, being a class that consistenly does less damage than any other mage class, dont you think it is a bit more imperative that we be able to 3 spark as much as we can? And speaking of Lending hand, sage version gives a chance to not lose a spark at all, which makes it even better, especially in a situation where we might have trouble raising chi at all. Sage Nova has a chance to use only one spark. All in all, the sage path will give you a lot more management in chi, which allows the class to have much more of an option in how they utilize their skills.



I am not saying demon sucks, but my opinion still stands as it is. Sage is better.b:cute