[Discussion][Event]PvP Tournaments

kalystconquerer#0876

Hello PWI players!

I've been bouncing around the idea of a PvP tournament ran by us and I'd like to get your feedback on the concept and anything you'd recommend!

General Premise
- Create a Tournament or Tournament series (can be for xTNF qualifying, for certain prizes, special titles etc.)
- Looking to make a variety of tournaments, but ideally would like to start with one or two basic ones to lay the groundwork for future ones.
- Would ultimately like to have a healthy ecosystem of tournaments, some ran officially by us and others that we can lend prize support to (if it gets popular enough)

Rules and Considerations
Using the Cloud/Sky Arena (if this is still possible)
-This arena I believe allows for flight and also has orbs that go around destealthing players and/or giving buffs - I'll need to read over the documentation for this again.

OR

Using Open World
Current Gears on your person
All Apothecary, Genies etc. can be used
Usage of flyers allowed
Teams Composition must be a rainbow
6v6 (Could do a 10v10 at a later date?)
Stealthing for longer than a certain time incurs a Game Loss for the entire team
Best 2 out of 3, 50 minute rounds.
Tiebreakers - based on the percentage remaining on the total HP count (not based on HP number)
Matches must be moderated by either a GM at specific times/dates or can be player moderated but must be recorded.


**I am considering rental characters for certain tournament series, but this is not finalized and I will need to look over all the logistics to see if this would be worth pursuing.

If creating Tournament qualifiers for xTNF, rental characters can't be used in the tournament series (for obvious reasons-you will using your own characters for xTNF)

Prizing
Pool of prizes to be considered - Arigora Coins, Dull Zenith Skulls/Shards, Glyph Packs Lv 4-6+, Supply Tokens, Dragon Orbs Ocean-Flame, Special titles, special mounts and fashion (we have a special set of fashion that was given through PvP tournaments), Ancient Gifts/Inkdragons Blood, War Avatar Cards or Chests (Like Neuma Portal Chest), Primordial/Barbaric Blood, Arcane Legend Pill/Conches etc.


Let me know what you think!

aspiringapathy

This looks like a fantastic idea. I'd be curious whether the designed tournament is supposed to be cross server or run on each individual server. Best of 3 50-minute rounds seems a bit excessive, but most fights would end before the timer runs out.

I'm not so much for the bullet following the Sky Arena. That orbs would grant buffs and de-stealth. I think it's a bad idea for a few reasons, granting buffs affords undue advantage to classes with organic or gear based purges as it creates the advantage of one party being granted buffs and the other losing them. Anti-stealth, while I hate sins, does ruin a valuable opportunity for a class, or multiple classes, to make use of their skillsets. Though I do like the bullet pertaining to a group DQ if a party spends an excessive amount of time in stealth.

keihan007#7641

As much as I`d like rental characters, I dont think its feasible. Even if we would have staff determine the Gear and cards, we would still be with a problem due shards, star charts and genies. All of which in ideal situation would be customized for players preferences. Glyphs are easy enough to balance I imagine. So I`d say no to rental gear, it would take a lot of manpower to do properly.

But the idea itself ot making tournaments, I like it. Rewards seem amazing in general and I can imagine its gonna be worthwhile thing to participate into.

kalystconquerer#0876

@aspiringapathy Tournaments hosted by us would probably be on a server by server basis. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to create a brand new cross server that would allow people to just zone in and PvP (and granted, I've never explored this before) Best of 3 50 minutes is pretty lengthy, I could look into cutting down that time. My initial thoughts were to give people enough time in between the rounds built into that 50 min to buff up, discuss strats etc.

I know stealth is no longer relegated to merely sins, but most stealth don't last as long as sins do. What I want to avoid is what used to happen alot out in open world PK - sins sitting in stealth to pop out triple spark and try and smash people then hide back in and sit in it, while people run around trying to not get caught in one area for too long. And to avoid stealth stall fests.

@saxroll For rentals I was contemplating leaving anything out that's too RNG based (so star charts, meridians and equalizing all cards to be one set with no rebirths. I'll check the all-rounder genies to see how their stat points work, but if there's little to no RNG involved there I can just have non modified All-Rounder Genies and players can select their genie skills). Glyphs would be Level 10's by default to allow players to have the maximum effect on whatever skill they were Glyphing.

Shards suck because I'd have to do one of two things - create multiple gear sets in a players inventory to account for an "offensive" and "defensive" build or lock everyone into a specific build - and all characters are not created equal.

catgirldesu

Rental characters would be fun, but I'm wondering how PWE would handle it. Players customize Genies, Glyphs and builds to their liking. Would PWE provide variables like pure magic Venomancer and vitality build Venomancer to choose from? What about different cultivations? Genies would have to be customized to match the character's build and cultivation as well. Glyphs are probably the easiest since you just need to fill the bag with different Glyphs and let players equip the ones they want.

Also, would players be allowed to change characters throughout the tournament? What if someone decides they don't want to play a pure magic Venomancer and wants to switch to a vitality build Venomancer instead? What about players that play x class on the regular server but wish to play y class in the tournament with rental characters?

Sorry to bomb you with questions Kalyst, but just some food for thought I guess lol.
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ahmas

i love it. good round-a-bout to get items us non op players cant get without collosuem or doing UP

kalystconquerer#0876

catgirldesu wrote: »

Rental characters would be fun, but I'm wondering how PWE would handle it. Players customize Genies, Glyphs and builds to their liking. Would PWE provide variables like pure magic Venomancer and vitality build Venomancer to choose from? What about different cultivations? Genies would have to be customized to match the character's build and cultivation as well. Glyphs are probably the easiest since you just need to fill the bag with different Glyphs and let players equip the ones they want.

Also, would players be allowed to change characters throughout the tournament? What if someone decides they don't want to play a pure magic Venomancer and wants to switch to a vitality build Venomancer instead? What about players that play x class on the regular server but wish to play y class in the tournament with rental characters?

Sorry to bomb you with questions Kalyst, but just some food for thought I guess lol.
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Wanted to make sure I got everything so I'm capturing in as a quote haha!

Genies - Will have to experiment with the All-Rounder Genie, which I think gives a decent amount of points to change builds.
Glyphs - Simple enough, just have level 10's and have enough copies of each Glyph so they can be switched in.
Class Specific Builds (Stats) - So this I think could be tackled in a few ways. We could solicit what the builds are being requested and then select the character that's built in that way, but you will have to run what we provide (since you wont have any additional modifiers such as Star Charts, Meridians and rebirths on higher rank cards. Or, a more unpopular opinion if players want a "customized" build, we can charge a coin fee for creation (remember, I'm having to do these during a maintenance so can't make it for free XD).

I'm considering allowing Reset Notes, but I wonder if too much min maxing on characters will result in players calling foul (for example being in a tourney and then someone say, trying to reroll stats on their gears and then using a provided Reset note to milk additional stat points before the next round)

Class Specific Builds (Cultivation) - Again, probably something similar to the above with cultivation switching via a Celestial Schism, but I could also consider making demon and sage versions of each class to avoid any sudden "surprises"
Character Switching - I think to save the headache of keeping track of it, for the duration of a particular Tournmant, I'll probably not allow character swapping especially if we're going to go into variant build territory. If we're doing a "series" that's held on a different day, that could be a consideration. For example, lets say we have a Summer Invitational and teams are set for that Tournament Series. In a Fall Invitational, you can select a different rental class than what you used in a previous Tournament series. If that makes sense.

Different Rental Character than Main - I don't see a problem with this! Granted, it's on them to know how to use the character, I can't make exceptions if suddenly someone says "Oh wait, but I can't play x character that well!"

Also, something I did forget to mention that I assumed was self explanatory but better safe than sorry - Res buffs and revive are not allowed. When you're down, you're down. Clerics can hit players with a res that dead characters can "save" until the next bout happens in a best 2 out of 3.

But again, this is something I'd look into after we see how other tournaments shake out first. If participation levels look good and it draws a decent audience, then I can make a case for different tournament types.

catgirldesu

Thanks for the response! This sounds pretty good to me so far.

I think we could have a discussion and then gauge the most popular/wanted builds for classes. Assuming R9 gear will be used, we'll be at least limited by gear so builds will probably be limited to offensive and defensive (pure mag/dex/str vs. vitality build, attack level shards vs. defence level shards and so on).

Speaking of gear, would these characters have Limitless R9 or Boundless R9? What about the weapons? R9 or G17 weapons?

Glyphs - Simple enough, just have level 10's and have enough copies of each Glyph so they can be switched in.

Level 10 Glyphs you say?
Seeing as I'll probably never have level 10 Glyphs, I'd totally sign up for rental characters just to play with the Glyphs. Well, okay, maybe not "never" but certainly not anytime soon.


And one more thing that I just thought about - it would be good to be able to have a "trial battle" so players can prepare, especially if we'll be using new things like level 10 Glyphs which most people won't have for a while.
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commisso202

fix the current issues before you start bringing in new stuff.. thanks

kalystconquerer#0876

@commisso202 This is fielding mostly for feedback on creating Tournaments or PvP activities in-game that are not run by "the system" (like TW, DC, NW etc.) Ultimately, I'd like to see it grow into something bigger and better.

For current issues, which ones are you referring to? Most of the issues that came with the Neverfall expansion are being cataloged and bugged by me and Surtr - if there's any that we missed, feel free to let us know! As far as Arigora Colosseum, I'll have to wait on our Engineers to give us a fix and this thread won't superseded work on that, if that's a concern. For any skills that are not working as intended via Glyphs, some of these have a fix that's in CN's version, but we won't get those until our next expansion.

@catgirldesu Would making it R9 gears help or hurt builds? I'd love to see HA veno builds but outside of G16, there's no way to make that happen without being nerfed against other classes. Less work for me if everything is set to R9, but it will limit anyone coming in who can use the alternative builds.

Of course with the power/skill difference in using Lv 10 Glyphs, that would need to be a consideration - to allow people to "test run" prior.

For Rank 9 Type...perhaps I should torment people and have everyone use CN R9, Kappa.
No, on a serious note, it might be all be our version's R9 since that's what people are most familiar with.

keihan007#7641

kalystconquerer#0876 wrote: »

For Rank 9 Type...perhaps I should torment people and have everyone use CN R9, Kappa.
No, on a serious note, it might be all be our version's R9 since that's what people are most familiar with.

I would actually like to see CN R9 if you are doing this. This is because CN weapons least have set stats, unlike our version, making it again less work for everybody.

kalystconquerer#0876

@saxroll Would AA classes be hurt by the lower purify proc chance? We've never done a full simulation on all equally geared characters that have as much RNG taken out as possible gears-wise, so I'm curious if, in a PvP environment, we'd see it skew heavily more in favor of the popular "control" characters (BM's/DBs/Sins).

But that's a good point!

keihan007#7641

kalystconquerer#0876 wrote: »

@saxroll Would AA classes be hurt by the lower purify proc chance? We've never done a full simulation on all equally geared characters that have as much RNG taken out as possible gears-wise, so I'm curious if, in a PvP environment, we'd see it skew heavily more in favor of the popular "control" characters (BM's/DBs/Sins).

But that's a good point!

I actually didnt think of the purify rate. Can you setup toons with max stat rolls or will they come out as random when you make the toon? But yea, its clear to everybody with puri proc weapon the rates arent the same and lack of US puri will be nerf to casters.

mars19

CN/RU do tourny every year using sky/cloud arena. Last year RU had 128 teams and used r8r2 with g17 +70 wep,here is final rounds:
https://youtu.be/qjV3EkIzjnU?t=9652

Chinese had something like this http://mypers.pw/11/#595853
For engrave/reset notes/changing gems/roll star charts everyone had enough gold or it was from npc, dunno.

jsxshadow

@kalystconquerer#0876 As for stats and genie..you don't have to set any stat points at all..you can just prepare the gears and all and leave it in the inventory..or equip it all and then completely reset all stat points..that way its in the players hand to decide what built they wanna use.

As for genie gears..yes, just take the allround genies or modify one to have 15/15/15/15 base stats with no diminishing return for stats set at 40+ for certain stats (not sure if those are official genies but I've seen some...err in places...that had no specified favored attribute and thus would scale with all stats equally (which would compensate the lack of genie gears)).

You can chose whatever culti you want for a rental char. Just place A supreme celestial Shism mold in the inventory and thats fine. You can let the players do something as well, you know! IF they mess up then thats their own fault, ijs.

I say no to level 10 glyphs. That alone would give rental characters a MASSIVE advantage over anyone as long as lvl10 glyphs arn't meta (and they won't be for a very very long time, even if CN already has some..the amount of ppl farming DH there is astronomically higher compared to our version) so please cap the glyphs to 6-7 max.

As for shards...prolly best to just leave 24xjosd, 24xdeity, 24xvit stones (+2 Savant for the weap), 26xdrakeflames and 2x Icebourne Stones in the inventory (bound ofc and make them unable to be combined cause yeah, ppl will try to abuse that ofc) so that players can chose their own sharding. Giving people multiple sets of gears like 1 with josd and another with deity is absolutely broken and also a MASSIVE advantage for those chars..just switching all gears kinda enables them the use of way better O'mally/jones blessings (in a sense). 1 set of gear is fair. Also don't forget an average def level weapon (25 def lvl without any extras would be ok, r8r) as some classes really need that.

Please also be modest with G17...there is no need to give rental characters such RNG based and if perfect stats unfair weapons when not many ppl have them yet. r9r3 or r9r4 (you could add both in the inventory, that wouldnt hurt that much, max stats on r9r3 please since the range is quite massive, ya know rng) is fine for the purpose of the arena. Also don't bother with mix sets like r9r4 Belt/ring + r9.3 gears for max tanking capabilities...that is way too specific and unnecessary for the purpose of events like this. Since it's a rainbow squad-setup and we want people to rely on each classes strengths please also do not include any purge weapons whatsoever (I'd love it if you could disable them for all chars but I guess that wont be possible).

As for charts...I suggest you just create a 10 stat one with one of each being a birth and fate star: Mdef, Pdef, HP, Pattack, Mattack. This way all classes are on the same level and no one gets the benefit of specified stats. LEave spirit and Penetration out of it completely if you can. 15-ish aptidute is also ok (all birth should be lvl3 and fates lvl6 tho to further eliminate rng) if you wanna set the level of the chart to 40-50.

For Cards...I suggest you use Full Nuema Portal 2nd RB for it BUT without the Set-Bonus. This way the cards are better than 2nd RB CF Set but still not as powerful as the normal Nuema Portal. Setting it to the regular nuema portal even with no RB at all is a bit overkill imho. Rental characters should be endgame but shouldnt be on par to not even 1% of the participating playerbase. All for the sake of balance.

Nuema, Meridian, Titles..just max them out..they don't make that much of a difference anyways (assuming 99% of the playerbase already got the max/near max anyways which should be true at near endgame). Anything like Passive skills ofc has to be maxed out.

As for the Tournament itself: I really like the idea and I also like the prizes alot...any chance for a 1v1-Tier? xD If not then it's fine with me as well! 6v6 and 10v10 in a fair and balanced fashion are already totally cool. I especially like the idea of using mirror'ed Rainbow squads..so no squad has the class advantage on their side. Very nice Idea Kaly!!!

srgtwolf

If you do tournaments, use the Arena, and input a dedicated Tournament Gear. Not R9, not R8, and not G16-T3. put it in for Cheap, that All players can pick up. If you want to get in the tourney, then you Have to wear the gear. that way, the players have to rely on Skills.

Set it up so that players can use their own Genies/Skycharts/ornaments. but make a Mandatory check for all Gear (Head/Chest/Leg/Foot/Wrist/Cape) kind of like the verification of entering NW with the war token. This way, the Gear can be customized by the player, ranging from Refines to Shards.

The biggest problem with this entire idea is that Spirit factor. It doesnt matter how much Atk or Defense lvls you have anymore if your spirit is more than 100 points lower than your target, you will do significantly less damage. One way to counter this is with dedicated Tourney gear, use it to max out Everyone's Spirit counts. It will level the playing field, and force ppl to actually play by skill, and not gear power.

Just my two cents worth.​​

jsxshadow

@srgtwolf No, you are wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. 100 Spirit more or less makes no difference at all and especially not noticeable in a real fight. even a difference of 600 is more or less negligible if its 2000 vs 2600.

Spirit was a factor back in the day, yes. Nowadays it is not a factor anymore (at least not in comparison to other factors).

Completely equalized Arenas are impossible for PWE to realize. Only CN can do that and rumors have it that they are indeed working on something like that. For this we have to wait a while longer (dont expect it to hit us under a year at least).

srgtwolf

@jsxshadow okay, I realize there are a Buttload of different things that affect pvp combat, and I know the Spirit has somewhat balanced out, since my Main is starting to catch back up after a 6+ month siesta from. But it is Essential that this tourney be balance across the board if it is going to work. But whatever they decide to do, it has to be Touney dedicated, unusable outside the Tourney. Otherwise things would be very badly abused.

catgirldesu

PWE wouldn't just hand elite gear to people for free. These would be rental characters, probably set up on one of the old PWI servers. PWE can simply shut down the server when the Tournament is inactive so people won't be able to use those characters.

It's also much easier to set up some characters with standard gear on another server and then let players use it for a Tournament, than creating exclusive Tournament gear for our existing characters. Something like that would need to be requested from China and wait months until China sends us a patch (that is, if they agree to do it first). It would also create problems for players that have specific builds that need specific engraves/stats/ornaments/cards to wear their armor unless the new gear has no stat requirements. It's just much simpler to create some standard characters with a few variations like picking between Sage and Demon, and from what I understand it's also something that can be done without having to wait for China's patches.
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secretblacksound#5538

@kalystconquerer#0876 i don't have high demands but can you make sure that everyone is as equal as possible gear wise etc? it would be nice to actually see players having to be skillfull with a class rather than gearfull in items

kalystconquerer#0876

Cards can still be equalized (all one set all RB 2 max level). I'll have to check on Star Charts again, but I believe that that one has a lot of RNG attached to it. We can do alot of things, but just "creating" the optimal versions of certain items is something we can't do.

Gears that have a stat variance in range will take multiple spawns to ensure they are "maxed" - essentially think of it as a faster but more annoying "rerolling process". To my knowledge, there and no bound versions of some of these high grade shards so I'd have to go the multiple gears with different shards route or give everyone the same gear set at first. Something I'll have to mull over on the weekend.

The tournament linked is the RU one but I'll admit I always wondered why we never used it after that one rare time with the International tournament. I was under the impression it stopped working after a certain point or was only meant for that, but when I hopped in on our test servers, they were working. Plus the items to get in are still whitelisted too. Open world tournaments would be more involved to monitor and if arena is still "active" then it's silly to not use it.

thedoc1212

Great idea but please have tears so the lower geared people can do it as well, so Rank9+ tier, nv3 tier/r8rr if thats a thing on toons it might be equal to nv3 and well maybe put g17 gears in its own class as well?

keihan007#7641

jsxshadow wrote: »

@srgtwolf No, you are wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. 100 Spirit more or less makes no difference at all and especially not noticeable in a real fight. even a difference of 600 is more or less negligible if its 2000 vs 2600.

Spirit was a factor back in the day, yes. Nowadays it is not a factor anymore (at least not in comparison to other factors).

Completely equalized Arenas are impossible for PWE to realize. Only CN can do that and rumors have it that they are indeed working on something like that. For this we have to wait a while longer (dont expect it to hit us under a year at least).

So I guess 20% more dmg taken/dealt is more or less negligible? Spirit is nowhere near as important as it used to be but it is still pretty damn important.

eirghan

I think it would be fun. Personally I think it would be awesome to have different kinds of tourneys, not just the regular r9 +12 jades PVP. But I recognise maybe the playerbase as a whole doesn't find that as appealing? Not sure.

Either way if rental characters are a possibility that opens up any number of crazy variations. One tourney could be, for example, all g16, whatever combination of whatever set you like, limited shard choices (say, citrine, sapphire, garnet, and amber). Then people could get really creative with their builds for each class and we'd have the whole like, HA mystic, Robed barb, evasion archer etc etc xD. Another possibility could be all one class, so just a bunch of barbarians mighty swinging each other in a tourney hall.

We used to do an event in my faction where we would all buy lowest grade NPC gear and take off our charts/cards etc and go ham. Really made things interesting and made PVP fun available for lesser geared/carded members. Unfortunately passives play such a huge role when gear is so minuscule that you can basically one or two shot each other. So on that note no matter what gear you choose for tournaments, it might be wise to ensure passives are taken into account.​​

shopcheese

I wanna have r8rr fights where everybody have different stats on both weapons and armor

eirghan

> @shopcheese said:
> I wanna have r8rr fights where everybody have different stats on both weapons and armor

Ugh yes that would be hot

blazerboy

Only downside I feel about rental chars is problems with assassin damage. If there are no g17 weapons and everyone is virtually the same im afraid anything non HA will be cut to ribbons by equal gear assassins. Not trying to make this a assassins is op thread but these facts should be considered or atleast make it r8rr no jones blessing too less damage amplifiers for all sorta like china maybe even make it seasonal which type of gear is meta. Cursed jail/Elimination assassin with lvl10 glyph at equal gear well one purge and then most of us it's 1 shot if it's r9 our version. Perhaps consider this after tidal protection/umbral stalker nerf just my oppinion

keihan007#7641

blazerboy wrote: »

Only downside I feel about rental chars is problems with assassin damage. If there are no g17 weapons and everyone is virtually the same im afraid anything non HA will be cut to ribbons by equal gear assassins. Not trying to make this a assassins is op thread but these facts should be considered or atleast make it r8rr no jones blessing too less damage amplifiers for all sorta like china maybe even make it seasonal which type of gear is meta. Cursed jail/Elimination assassin with lvl10 glyph at equal gear well one purge and then most of us it's 1 shot if it's r9 our version. Perhaps consider this after tidal protection/umbral stalker nerf just my oppinion

Assassin damage is one of the things why I would of preferred Chinas R9 gear - I know there is a thread where I explain why sins arent as gamebreaking there as they are here. Their R9 set is main reason for it as its tankier and offers less damage, making sins effective dmg output quite a bit less.

blazerboy

@saxroll then I think it's reasonable to make it so we have Chinese gear if thats the case only make it so ALL must you our version or rank 9 wep because for MOST phy class the chinese version is a upgrade whereas the arcane one alot of ppl would move agianst this so to be fair full chinese armor and full normal local rank 9 weapons but max stats

nunuator

Honestly just setting a cap on stats etc on this event would work extremely well. A debuffs which takes away spirit to x amount would easily make it more interesting. Making every toon have the same number of stat points etc.
TBH it would be best to have a separate server for this run like a private server where players can log insta gear and PK.
The prize for the player will be given to the player on their main account.
This way rental toons etc. Are eliminated, just a simple log onto the server make free gears and PK.

OFC for the die hard cashers you will need the original settings PK with what you have.

But, honestly I'd love to see some more love for the under geared highly skilled players which go unnoticed on each server.

Prizes: 2014 PVP champion neck was a thing and it is still a really good substitute for a NW cube neck.

heerohex#3018

They have done something like this in the past. It did not work very well.

I know in the past items like this have been set down and have failed because they did not have the structure in place to deal with this.

I used to run a tournament for a pool game many years ago and I remember we had a lot of UI to deal with this. As well as many people. 1 official would watch all official matches but otherwise the players would just report a win or loose and it was matched up.

I did think about doing a PvP tournament on here with The Players TW Season. As you can see sometimes my time can be extremely limited and a few other reasons pushed me back. IE gear limitations...

I would love to see...

1. an open XServer PvP server (a small world map with some Daily quests and limits. A lot of work would have to go into this to get it right. Im not talking about a simple open world map.
2. PvP tournament would be great for XServer TNF or similar events. (I have a concerns with times with this tho)
3. events that cater to all players again times will be an issue here.

your main problem is going to be Staffing... as with all events the more the system can do for you the better and easier it will be. What would be nice is an old instance like your saying to pull people into so they auto enter PK for a free for all and or it disables all PW gears and give you a static gear set ETC lots you could do here...

really this need to be well thought out and a structure in place to support it. with that its a lot of work but I think it would be good.