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I finally know my role as an OP in PvP

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  • benskix2benskix2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 674 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You were already a node troll, you were just a node troll that could also one shot people.
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  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    oh, and i don't see a perma stealth TR swap in smoke bomb just to attack me? i'm sorry. i see CWs and TRs mixing their powers up all the time to best advantage. its a shame that with a switch of powers they can go from offense, to defense, to control in just a couple seconds. the rest of us simply can't do that. the fact of the matter is:

    CWs and TRs also have the best of all worlds, except healing. are you going to sit there and argue that its an incorrect statement? if so, please add details.

    Its incorrect they have healing both of them due to several sources including lifesteal chaos magic.

    Cws will heal to full every storm daily and a tr with high reg/lifesteal will heal to full going into hide and then come back.

    Just for the record ..........
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  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    i was thinking, healing others. but point taken.

    Ops have that too with templars wrath. probably better than both of those in all honesty. though i have fought some CWs that i can't kill simply because they go back to full health so quickly. and thats NOT with my OP. that was with my HR. my OP has NO chance of killing anything. other than an SW. maybe.

    There is a way actually but its so broken i dont like it being used.

    If you slott 2 damage auras it sets up a resonance field with certain dotts or lasting powers that will have 3 different result depending on situation including if a gf with kv is present or other pals with auras up.

    I have reported this but no change or even feedback toward it so far.

    If you slott both and use invulnerable daily it can;
    1 kill your party
    2 kill the one that placed the dott on you
    3 kill the entire other party of all close enough to be effected.

    If a Gf with kv and reflect build is present the truly spectacular effect can happend when all involved in the chain of damage will die like flies and if your invulnerability is up you will be left alone standing.

    I consider this a HUGE bug and Sw-Hr suffer most from it and I strongly recomend not using this in pvp and in pve it will just kill your party so :-).
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Just fought an OP in dom, he sat on our base for the latter half of the game. Even with 2 kinds of piercing damage, and a wheel buff, couldn't dent him. Luckily we'd already won, but the whole of our team couldn't put him down.

    Crazy.
    No idea what my toon is now.
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  • soltaswordsoltasword Member Posts: 290 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    No, the op is not overpowered at all. It is now under powered thanks to the nerf to DJ. Every time they nerf something to try and balance pvp, it severely and adversely affects us that do not pvp. I don't have all the bis gear or level 500 runes and enchants and all the best of everything so a nerf just for pvp rebalance destroys the rest of the game for all of us that don't pvp. If they want to let you do pvp, it needs to be on a separate server instead of on the same server as pve. Apparently the devs don't seem to understand that. And since both pvp and pve are on the same server, it ends up going both ways. If they buff a character for pve then pvp is all out of whack. They simply need to be completely different from each other or as I said, on different servers.
  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,084 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    yep... what you described is a problem
  • kriseinkrisein Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    i sit on 4 or 2 in GG and just make fun of people trying to kill me. i can't hurt anyone any more so i slot all DR/defense powers. absolution, circle of power, templars wrath, aura of protection, and aura of truth. and i only cast dive protector as my daily now.

    i've actually had 8 on 1 and stood there while my other team mates capped other nodes.

    i've had people call me names as i laughed at their pathetic attempts to hurt me.

    CWs will repel me off the node, and i'll walk back. they will freeze me and i'll walk back. its funny.

    then they quit. i even made another OP quit because all i did was dance with him on the node and tell him i was going to stand there and make sure he didn't get any points.

    so yep. cryptic has made my OP a Node Troll. if i can't compete in the fight, i'll just hold a node. isn't that the job of a tank?

    nothing new, except for the fact that DJ got a little bit of a nerf. this has always been the case with the paladin holding the entire opposing team down, while killing them one at a time with the 1 shot DJ..
    It's more fun in the Philippines >:)
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  • equ4lizerequ4lizer Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    krisein wrote: »
    nothing new, except for the fact that DJ got a little bit of a nerf. this has always been the case with the paladin holding the entire opposing team down, while killing them one at a time with the 1 shot DJ..

    Now that divine judgement has been nerfed,
    I can stick to my method of burning those enemies with negation enchantments on them.
    Truly Fun Times ! :o
    IGN: Granzon
    军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
    Daily: Granworm Sword
    Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
    Class Feature: Kabbalah System
    Aura: Warp Field

    IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
    (The Corrupted) (Retired)
  • kriseinkrisein Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    There is no way you could kill an attacking team with dj. The split dj damage would make it impossible. Dj was only good 1v1. And only against poor players. Any good player dodged, shielded, blocked or sprinted away. Or you are an sw.

    All they need to do is make it single target and give back the damage. But make it do less against players. Good for pvp and pve

    yeah i failed to mention though that the 1 shot is against players with low tenacity. however, DJ was still good at dealing decent split damage. i've played with and against a lot of good OPs and seen them hold an entire team..
    It's more fun in the Philippines >:)
  • kriseinkrisein Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    equ4lizer wrote: »
    Now that divine judgement has been nerfed,
    I can stick to my method of burning those enemies with negation enchantments on them.
    Truly Fun Times ! :o

    i agree. we all need to adapt whenever something gets nerfed. we play to our strengths. that's what makes a good pvp player i think. .
    It's more fun in the Philippines >:)
  • equ4lizerequ4lizer Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It's sad, but thats how it works..hopefully they rework those weaker enchantments.
    IGN: Granzon
    军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
    Daily: Granworm Sword
    Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
    Class Feature: Kabbalah System
    Aura: Warp Field

    IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
    (The Corrupted) (Retired)
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  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Basic balance lesson:

    as a tank DC (which i play), you kill no one. Being unable to kill another player means no one kills you 1V1

    with more than one enemy you SHOULD, at same gear, go down, slowly.
    Which brings us at your role: play IN GROUP, increasing your group survivability while being able to tank damage, forcing enemies to heavily focus whoever they can kill fast out-damaging your healing, or heavily focusing you.
    So, as a support role, you synergize wonderfully with your team since you increase their survivability, and they increase your survivability preventing the enemy from heavily focusing you, CCing them and attacking them+ allowing you to use your group as a shield (shift through you group to mess the enemy melee aiming).

    You are NOT supposed to be immortal alone sitting on a node if the gear is comparable.

    So even if you go full tank-support on OP, your role is the same, roughly, than a tank DC.
    Balance dictates then that you should be immortal 1V1 and play a big role in team fight, but NOT BEING IMMORTAL 1VMANY

    Now i get it you're angry cause you want to kill, but what you're basically saying is "cryptic fixed a broken mechanic, so now i switched to another unbalanced mechanic, but i don't like it".

    Players severely lack a sense of balance here.
    If you wanted to DPS you could go for GF or GWF fighters, or any other DPS class.

    8v1 sounds broken but could be due to gear difference. SO far i didn't understand some OP builds, specifically ones that have long immunity times or periods when you deal massive damage but their temp HP don't even budge. Paladins are much harder tanks to face than tank DCs, but i can't tell if it's lack of balance or lack of knowledge about a new class.

    You can ask for a DPS path for paladins much like DCs have a DPS path.

    But then you should go down 1v1 like a GF or GWF, so be prepared to lose A LOT of your current survivability. More balanced than being a semi-immortal tank with 1-shot daily.

    Chain CC is a good counter but imho, a full tank-support should not need 5 enemies with heavy CC focus to go down or be immortal. 2v1 you should already go down BUT VERY slowly, be it tank DC or OPally. But not being immortal. In group, you should synergize with your group and become much harder to kill while making your team harder to kill, forcing enemies to adopt a specific strategy.
  • ofscourgeofscourge Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    or maybe just maybe you slot wisdom and courage use templar - BO - RA and go with your team to the fight? dunno, those wisdom CD reduction + justive feat + aura of courage is HUGEEE bost for your team.
    But if you decide to node troll, its your call

    As for me, boosting my team total damage while be able to tank and protect them with my dailies is awesome, even tho most people doesnt realize I did that to them tho. but heck, winning always fun in the end
  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    pando83 wrote: »
    Basic balance lesson:

    as a tank DC (which i play), you kill no one. Being unable to kill another player means no one kills you 1V1

    with more than one enemy you SHOULD, at same gear, go down, slowly.
    Which brings us at your role: play IN GROUP, increasing your group survivability while being able to tank damage, forcing enemies to heavily focus whoever they can kill fast out-damaging your healing, or heavily focusing you.
    So, as a support role, you synergize wonderfully with your team since you increase their survivability, and they increase your survivability preventing the enemy from heavily focusing you, CCing them and attacking them+ allowing you to use your group as a shield (shift through you group to mess the enemy melee aiming).

    You are NOT supposed to be immortal alone sitting on a node if the gear is comparable.

    So even if you go full tank-support on OP, your role is the same, roughly, than a tank DC.
    Balance dictates then that you should be immortal 1V1 and play a big role in team fight, but NOT BEING IMMORTAL 1VMANY

    Now i get it you're angry cause you want to kill, but what you're basically saying is "cryptic fixed a broken mechanic, so now i switched to another unbalanced mechanic, but i don't like it".

    Players severely lack a sense of balance here.
    If you wanted to DPS you could go for GF or GWF fighters, or any other DPS class.

    8v1 sounds broken but could be due to gear difference. SO far i didn't understand some OP builds, specifically ones that have long immunity times or periods when you deal massive damage but their temp HP don't even budge. Paladins are much harder tanks to face than tank DCs, but i can't tell if it's lack of balance or lack of knowledge about a new class.

    You can ask for a DPS path for paladins much like DCs have a DPS path.

    But then you should go down 1v1 like a GF or GWF, so be prepared to lose A LOT of your current survivability. More balanced than being a semi-immortal tank with 1-shot daily.

    Chain CC is a good counter but imho, a full tank-support should not need 5 enemies with heavy CC focus to go down or be immortal. 2v1 you should already go down BUT VERY slowly, be it tank DC or OPally. But not being immortal. In group, you should synergize with your group and become much harder to kill while making your team harder to kill, forcing enemies to adopt a specific strategy.


    DC is NOT a tank, just because you have some defenisive cds doesnt mean you're already a tank. That's why you shouldnt compare OP tank to classes with defensive cds but to other real tanks like GF. OP tank will die to most specs who can kite him, because it's hard to build temp hp without being able to hit enemies with Templar and CT itself wont be enough to save you from good dps + cc.

    If you want to outplay tanks, stack armor pen and use enchants which lower their defense or / and power (such as trans Terror) then abuse their weakness to defeat them. PvP in NWO doesnt require killing enemy players in order to win.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    So you think Healing DC can kill anyone?
    You need to compare Healing DC with Healing OP. Healing OP can't tank much and has zero DPS.

    Compare GF to Tank OP. GF has way more DPS and CC.

    Basically an OP can tank or heal, depending on spec. If you want to nerf their tankiness or healing than you're going to have to buff their DPS and CC. Then you'll just have another GF or DC with slightly different special effects. What would be the point of that?
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • equ4lizerequ4lizer Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You need to compare Healing DC with Healing OP. Healing OP can't tank much and has zero DPS.

    Compare GF to Tank OP. GF has way more DPS and CC.

    Basically an OP can tank or heal, depending on spec. If you want to nerf their tankiness or healing than you're going to have to buff their DPS and CC. Then you'll just have another GF or DC with slightly different special effects. What would be the point of that?

    Healing OP has zero dps ? Hahaha..that is not true at all.
    IGN: Granzon
    军医骑士 超过三千水平 突破极限释放开
    Daily: Granworm Sword
    Enounter: Vow of Enmity | Worm Smasher | 縮退砲
    Class Feature: Kabbalah System
    Aura: Warp Field

    IGN: Faluzure 19k Tenebrous Soulbinder Scourge Warlock
    (The Corrupted) (Retired)
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  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    why, if i go full tank, should they be able to kill me and i should be able to hurt them. absolutely not. I've seen DCs hold off 3 or more people. I've seen TRs hold off 3 or more people. Back when my GWF was god not only would i hold off 3 or more, but i'd kill them quick. i would say a tanking OP should be able to tank 3 or more with no problem. but not be able to damage them. i believe it WAI.

    They are not able to kill you. 1v1. What you look for is 1v1.
    Immortal 1v1--->can't kill enemies 1v1.

    Just to be clear. Today i ended up vs a premade composed of top-tier players from absolute, EoA, Chocolate Shoppe. We got a very geared pally from Midnight Express and they were not able to kill him.

    Now, when you ho 1vmore than 1 player, any class should lose/ go down. What changes is a DPS class deals some damage then goes down FAST, a tank toon deals little/ no damage but goes down way slower. Both DPS and tank cannot kill the enemies cause 2v1 you lose, period.
    Cause balance means 1v1 you're supposed to win by a small margin, so 1v2 you have no chance.

    Things should change when you play in group, with mates protecting you and you, in return, increasing your party's survivability a lot.

    But ALONE, 2v1 you should go down. Tank DC or Tank paladin. You just go down very slowly and, if you're good, even slower, till someone comes and helps you.

    Question: if you were 2v1 vs a CW or GWF, he would go down right? Let's say you+ GF vs GWF. The GWF would eventually go down, right? At same gear level, the GF protected by you would take him down and he would not kill anyone.

    Then why, if say, you get 2v1ed by GWF+GF, you should be immortal? Going down way solwer than a non-tank, yes.
    But IMMORTAL? No. That's lack of balance.

    You are allowed to be immortal if you deal no damage, in a 1v1.
    You're not allowed to be immortal 1v2+

    No matter if full tank or not.

    Your examples are wrong.

    TR holding 3 more players of same gear is OP, we know it.
    GWF was, as you said, god. They were OP in module 2-3, we know it.

    Tank DCs, vs 2 players of same gear level can go down. Slowly. But if you CC enough and avoid wasting your DPS on EAS, a tank DC should go down.
    They don't go down now cause changes in tenacity made tank DCs and OP tanks broken as hell.

    I mean, at 2k iLvL today i was holding off 5 geared enemies, 2 CW, 1 TR, 1 GF, 1 GWF. The struggled and couldn't kill me 1v5. With no team protecting me. Just me, my lesser elven battle and T1 PvP gear with rank 5s and green artifact set+ 4 blue artifacts, anointed champion little alt cleric girl holding off 5 enemies.

    Is it balanced? Hell, NO!
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  • wentriswentris Member Posts: 542 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    CWs will repel me off the node, and i'll walk back. they will freeze me and i'll walk back. its funny.

    I wanted to point out this thing. Lets say both you and CW deal/take no damage. If you stand there 1vs1 whole match and he sometimes pushes/freezes you out of the node (I guess you arent always under sanctuary), while he stays there 100% of game time - he wins, doesnt he? And its completely gear independent, I mean green item CW would do that to 5k iLvL 0 dmg OP? Plus any other class with green items would shut down 5k iLvL OP just by standing on node he chooses and everybody else in game ignoring this node? This build can troll hard if enemy team has absolutaly no clue (and I find sending many team members to zerg a 100% tank OP stupid), but can be trolled easily as well :D
  • ashnnwashnnw Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I still do not see what the big deal is DJ was useful (especially for working double/triples kills for pvp boons).

    Palys can still be built offensively even at 4k+, what people seem to miss is that as a OP you are not gonna see the big burst damage, at 4k IL+ at most you will see 10-15k on encounters against well geared players, but Echo/Judgment are the difference maker.

    So for every rotation you go through I am getting 2 rotations in on you, plus the reflect/courage/TB/Boon damage, takes a bit longer to kill but the result can be effective.
    without losing much defense.

    You do not even need Negation enchants, its a waste on a OP Paladin, Elven Battle is a much better choice since chain CC is the only way your should go down, if you decide you need to go on defense in a game than just switch out your skills to,TW,BO,DP with DC Arti and you have all the Defense you will need in combination with LOH which is so much more OP than DJ ever-thought about being.

    If you see that's its not necessary then continue with your offensive setup, either way your not going to kill any OP Paladin's, Tank DC, near the same IL anyway everyone else is manageable.
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2015
    Paladins were tough but still went down just fine before the latest atrocious update we got. The class itself actually was nerfed ( DJ is doing miserable damage in PVE, broken or wai I dont know but its low ). The tankiness boost in PVP has nothing to do with the Paladin so dont go blaming one class for the devs' short-sightedness

    Not so sure.

    As I've said before -- "split the chaff from wheat" -- personally, it feels like that the OPals that are left after the patch and still show up regularly in PvP matches seem to be the toughest of them all. I still haven't got a clue as to how those OPals are doing it, but against these guys even timed CCs don't work.

    As in, whatever short, momentary gaps in between Sanctuary I'm usually proficient enough to exploit it and force a CC through that small gap... and I'm the unconventional full-Oppressor build, with enough CC power to widen that gap to a good 7~8 second duration. And yet, against those guys, the CCs simply don't work. He'd get held for like 2 seconds and break even when not deflected, which by my calculations would be equivalent to like 80~90% CC resistance... and then activate Sanctuary again.

    IMO the remaining OPals that show up now are tougher than ever. If that's not a strong role, I dunno what is.
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