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Item level score and its flaws

smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
edited May 2015 in General Discussion (PC)
I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that observed the new item level system that it has some major flaws.

Notably:

It calculate enchants in utility slots.
Companions don't contribute
Boons don't contribute
Armor kits give a ridiculously high amount.
Legendary artifacts give the same value as a regular epic (despite being vastly better).

So let me suggest a twist on the current system.
Slot weighting.

What I mean by that is that every item slot give a certain % of the equipped item in accordance with the stats of the item.

What I mean by that is that for example, a chest piece give a lot more stats than a helm/boots/gloves and despite that, it gives the same ilvl increase.

If you made it so that a chest has a 100% item level value and the 3 other pieces have ~65% of the stats, then those items should also give 65% of the item level value to the item level score. Same go for every other pieces.

This would reflect someone's worth a lot better than the current system. It would STILL have flaws but it would be a better judge.
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  • quaranaxquaranax Member Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that observed the new item level system that it has some major flaws.

    Notably:

    It calculate enchants in utility slots.
    Companions don't contribute
    Boons don't contribute
    Armor kits give a ridiculously high amount.
    Legendary artifacts give the same value as a regular epic (despite being vastly better).

    So let me suggest a twist on the current system.
    Slot weighting.

    What I mean by that is that every item slot give a certain % of the equipped item in accordance with the stats of the item.

    What I mean by that is that for example, a chest piece give a lot more stats than a helm/boots/gloves and despite that, it gives the same ilvl increase.

    If you made it so that a chest has a 100% item level value and the 3 other pieces have ~65% of the stats, then those items should also give 65% of the item level value to the item level score. Same go for every other pieces.

    This would reflect someone's worth a lot better than the current system. It would STILL have flaws but it would be a better judge.


    I agree with everything.


    Shout it to the wind my friend, shout it to the wind.

    The only "official" people who read these threads are the forum mods to check whether or not to lock the thread or moderate.

  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.
    header.png
    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Member Posts: 601 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.

    Umm, there would still be power creep.
  • sliderhardcoresliderhardcore Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.

    In that case up-ing your iLvL will be completely pointless for anything except the dull form of pvp that exists here !
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    have-you-ever-listened-to-someone-speak-and-wonder-who-ties-your-shoes-for-you-7d4c1.png


    There would be no power creep, because the stronger a character is, the stronger the monsters would be.
    header.png
    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • baszun67baszun67 Member Posts: 89
    edited May 2015
    Who cares about any of this? Fix class powers, fix power bugs, fix enchant bugs. Ignore people crying about epeen score. I have 'high' current item level 4+ and this is literally the last thing I look at when assessing toon gears, and literally the last thing in the universe I hope any amount of coding time is spent 'fixing'.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.

    I've never seen that in a MMO and it's never going to happen for obvious reasons. It's very easily exploitable.
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    diogene0 wrote: »
    I've never seen that in a MMO and it's never going to happen for obvious reasons. It's very easily exploitable.

    Because this MMO should be like every other MMO. *shakes head*

    In case you haven't figured it out in your 50 minutes of game time, everything can be exploitable. Just like every other MMO.
    header.png
    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.

    Umm, there would still be power creep.

    ...which, interestingly, could be somewhat compensated by the above measures. It shouldn't be that much of a problem to implement a dynamic that would offer I-level-adaptive maps (like the level adaption foundry has), and gate new joiners to their appropriate bracket's instance. But...

    The problem IMHO would be: The rewards would have to scale, too. Actually there are games that do that throughout - every drop is scaled to (highest party member's) level. But these have more frequent high value drops, greater item pools, and less focus on party play.

    But without reward scaling, too, the whole method will be easily subverted. A possible compromise would be to either scale based on half storyline stage of the map, half ILvl, and - really - impose something like a minimum ILvel to campaign maps, too. Otherwise we'll see certain classes go in there half-naked because that'd make it a cheesy "From Dusk till Dawn"-themed fun park... ...challenge, no! Farming, ho!
  • myowmyowmyowmyow Member Posts: 1,923 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    In case you haven't figured it out in your 50 minutes of game time, everything can be exploitable.

    You do realize this person's join date is June 2012 . . .
    SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! (repeat indefinitely)


    myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
    pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
    looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Apologies for not expanding further, but yes, the rewards should scale as well, obviously.

    When I DM'ed a zillion years ago, this is how I handled having a group of mixed level characters. Yes, it was a lot of work on my end, but I scaled everything to each individual character.

    If a human can do this with nothing more than a few pieces of graph paper and some pre-determined drops, there's no reason a computer can't do it.
    header.png
    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    myowmyow wrote: »
    You do realize this person's join date is June 2012 . . .

    Gee, golly, I must have missed that altogether. *eyeroll*
    header.png
    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • jondbxjondbx Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I would like to see monsters scaled to ilvl, instead of character level. That would be so much better by creating more playable areas for everyone, and there would be no power creep, because the monsters would continuously get more and more difficult as ilvl went up.

    What would be the purpose of getting better gear then? If everything scales then you end up with the exact same gameplay exact same farm time for the same rewards only you spent time getting better gear/refining.
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    In principle this proposition could fairly easily be tested in e.g. the campaigns' daily lairs:

    - those are isolated sub-instances, the enemies and rewards could hence be fairly well adapted, maybe with the slight limitation that this would only get enacted when they're soloed, or else adapted to the party ILvl.
    - you can run max. 2 of those per char and day, so the exploit potential is reduced.
    - the rewards are to a significant part in a golden chest, so helpers would miss out if they've already done it that day.

    Idea?
  • scoutmasterjscoutmasterj Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    smulch wrote: »
    I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that observed the new item level system that it has some major flaws.

    Notably:

    It calculate enchants in utility slots.
    Companions don't contribute
    Boons don't contribute
    Armor kits give a ridiculously high amount.
    Legendary artifacts give the same value as a regular epic (despite being vastly better).

    So let me suggest a twist on the current system.
    Slot weighting.

    What I mean by that is that every item slot give a certain % of the equipped item in accordance with the stats of the item.

    What I mean by that is that for example, a chest piece give a lot more stats than a helm/boots/gloves and despite that, it gives the same ilvl increase.

    If you made it so that a chest has a 100% item level value and the 3 other pieces have ~65% of the stats, then those items should also give 65% of the item level value to the item level score. Same go for every other pieces.

    This would reflect someone's worth a lot better than the current system. It would STILL have flaws but it would be a better judge.

    That's interesting, except, no one can actually see your item level. I was surprised that my stone didn't contribute and my utilities did though.
  • sliderhardcoresliderhardcore Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    But without reward scaling, too, the whole method will be easily subverted. A possible compromise would be to either scale based on half storyline stage of the map, half ILvl, and - really - impose something like a minimum ILvel to campaign maps, too. Otherwise we'll see certain classes go in there half-naked because that'd make it a cheesy "From Dusk till Dawn"-themed fun park... ...challenge, no! Farming, ho!

    As i said before - implementing something like that will completely eliminate every possible need for the person to increase his item lvl except for the dull form of pvp that exists in this game.
    I other words - no sane person will even think for higher item lvl when his low one will have exactly the same "power" vs same monster/boss as every other, even as those which are few times higher !
  • blackxxwolf3blackxxwolf3 Member Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Gee, golly, I must have missed that altogether. *eyeroll*

    where did you get "50 minutes of play time" then if you didnt notice that?
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Because this MMO should be like every other MMO. *shakes head*

    In case you haven't figured it out in your 50 minutes of game time, everything can be exploitable. Just like every other MMO.

    Then why introduce more ways for people to exploit the game? There will be ways for players to get certain stats that will be better, or to find ways to change the item levels. They could go into a dungeon with low item level to have an easier time, and change to the highest item level possible at the very last moment for better loots.

    That's what he meant by easily exploitable and should never happen like other MMO.

    Plus, it will make the game too easy and boring again, and no sense of progression. You'll see people with green gear doing the hardest content in the game, because there's no need to get better gear, and probably because the game gets more difficult with better gear since the mobs will hit harder.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Member Posts: 601 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    <snip>

    There would still be power creep, regardless if it scaled to iLvL instead of character level. In fact, you would only further widen the gulf between what items are considered BiS and pretty much nullify certain stats all together and thus the power creep would continue to get worse. The whole notion that people believe power creep is bad often baffles me to begin with anyways, since that is the general premise behind levels, increasing power and gear even in Dungeons and Dragons. Increasing a monsters HD doesn't mean the monster will be as tough as the player, and it's often why it's best to consider that monsters be a couple of HD stronger than the players especially in high levels.

    So matching iLvL really won't do the trick. Because person A's Deflect/Defense i89 item won't compare to person B's Power/Crit i89 item.
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Introductory remark: I gladly concede that the system would require quite some fine tuning. Which is one of the reasons I suggested testing it locally before implementing it globally.
    jaotut wrote: »
    Then why introduce more ways for people to exploit the game? There will be ways for players to get certain stats that will be better, or to find ways to change the item levels. They could go into a dungeon with low item level to have an easier time, and change to the highest item level possible at the very last moment for better loots.

    Super easy to control: Chest level is set to the lowest ILvl you wear any moment during your run. You mess up a gear change - tough luck, now everything is scaled to a hundred IL less - including and especially the drops, and yes, including the enchantment and RP drops.

    jaotut wrote: »
    Plus, it will make the game too easy and boring again, and no sense of progression. You'll see people with green gear doing the hardest content in the game, because there's no need to get better gear, and probably because the game gets more difficult with better gear since the mobs will hit harder.

    Getting through, yes. Getting the high end reward, no - with reward scaling. Also: Too Boring? Easily remedied: Get better gear.

    Basically the method would - in the midterm - increase players competence, because one could analyze fights in a less-unforgiving difficulty and then scale up according to competence / affluence / ISP connection / personal taste and preference.

    There would still be power creep, regardless if it scaled to iLvL instead of character level. In fact, you would only further widen the gulf between what items are considered BiS and pretty much nullify certain stats all together and thus the power creep would continue to get worse. [...]

    Why so? The top notch drops won't come unless you go in with high enough gear. And one could even extend the system and make stuff harder if you exceed a certain ILvl, which would then give better-geared players the challenge they crave for. Again, this would need fine tuning, but in principle it is possible, it's done by quite a bunch of games. Also, CLvl is 70. Nullify stats? Which and why?

    Also: The eeeevil power creep mainly happens at the very top notch end, inaccessible or extremely rare in those toned-down zones - and by introducing new gear, which ofc has to be better than the old one. Midgame - for which the model should IMHO be intended - this absolutely wouldn't matter. There are plenty of games where even regular character development includes rerunning the same storyline, on a harder difficulty setting, and with completely dynamical levels in great parts of those reruns...

    So matching iLvL really won't do the trick. Because person A's Deflect/Defense i89 item won't compare to person B's Power/Crit i89 item.

    This is an obvious case of "caveat emptor", well, metaphorically. And I don't really advocate for the difficulty being made fail-safe. IIRC I even wrote that a certain minimum ILvl should still be required - and advertised.


    Basically: It shouldn't be all cuddly-wuddly, but adapted. While with my boonless Pally I can tank the end-Shar mobs in three-group chunks (Formorian Warrior + War-Troll/Hewer + Powrie cluster e.g.) and the core challenge is taking care when the heal is needed, the fresh players with R5,6,7 green/blue Artiweapons, random blues and no boons and weapon enchantments currently has a tedious and/or frustrating time in the campaigns, and has trouble getting through that Warrior fight (helped a few of them out there). R8/9s and the PuTerr my DC lent her do miracles. Same for the lairs. And, yes, I'm not in it for the challenge, but want it to be over ASAP. (BTW: Those _are_ fresh players, I can see that by what they do and don't do and what mistakes they make)

    Aforementioned fresh player could land in a different instance with a slightly lower oppositon - and lower rewards. And thereby get accustomed without being frustrated and hence leave the game. Make a fraction of the reward drops a wee better than the IL of the instance, presto!, progress - and after two or three or ten runs the player has the gear for the next IL bracket. Rinse, repeat.

    Newcomers get a less steep climb, with less frustration potential, and our oldie's well- to overgeared alts can go in and get a chance to immediately find something off that zone's best loot table. Also the newbies run into that campaign zone cliff without real warning, and without much EE-campaign IL-adequate gear (SpinRise terminal quest rewards are Lvl 65 items :^/ ). Sure, the 3-man Dungeons can fill that gear gap, but they're really not the place to learn meaningful gameplay tactics for a variety of reasons. The adaptive scaling could, appropriately tuned, help there.

    To put that in relation to what I experienced after getting my first chars to Lvl 60 during Mod 2: I could well handle Shar and DR with green&blue, R5/6, and the odd cheapo purple off the AH. I died every now and then, but more often due to my stupidity. Which made me learn and become a better player. And when Mod 3 came, IwD was tougher, but again, manageable with that IIRC 12k GS required. Currently not so few those newbies going there get constantly killed due to the red/blue-balance and no real fault of their own. And without the means to acquire the means to improve that. (OK, the latter will hopefully get better with the new armour being introduced...)

    To conclude with an analogy: When you want to teach someone how to repair a car, it doesn't really make sense to - as first ever task - have him repair a damaged 12 cylinder engine with a hammer and a hacksaw. Sure, exaggerated, but the game currently seems that way for quite some of the newer players. Sure, too, that this sometimes is due to them trying too difficult stuff, but the campaigns are what Knox tells you to do, so IMHO Cryptic should give them some loving there. That IL adaption is a possible option, and it could, in principle, be made a viable one.
  • shieragoshierago Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    How about they just bring gear score back
  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    shierago wrote: »
    How about they just bring gear score back

    I agree, personally I prefer gear score too!
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  • methecsgodmethecsgod Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    As much as I detest showing off imaginary numbers, I agree that GS reflected a character's capabilities better than IL. Especially when purple and blue items in mod 6 have a big difference in level and little difference in stats.
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Super easy to control: Chest level is set to the lowest ILvl you wear any moment during your run. You mess up a gear change - tough luck, now everything is scaled to a hundred IL less - including and especially the drops, and yes, including the enchantment and RP drops.

    And now you've created an even bigger P2W problem. If you want the best loots, then you need to have minimum rank 10s. So even if you have skills and good build, forget about it, you'll never get the top loots with your rank 7-8s. If you don't even have rank 7s, well... enjoy your white pearl as the sapphires are reserved for the big boys.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • sliderhardcoresliderhardcore Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2015

    Getting through, yes. Getting the high end reward, no - with reward scaling. Also: Too Boring? Easily remedied: Get better gear.

    Think about it again before writing such. For what the hell players will want high end rewards when whey will have no benefit at all !? New items will be stronger only on paper, but your proposed scaling will make them as strong and every other item in real battles !!! In that case why the hell players will want to get stuff that will not change anything for them when fighting against their enemy !?
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    What if you took the sum of all stats from the base character, gear, enchantments, artifacts, and companions, divided that by 1000, then used that as the measure of a character?
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  • sliderhardcoresliderhardcore Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bioshrike wrote: »
    What if you took the sum of all stats from the base character, gear, enchantments, artifacts, and companions, divided that by 1000, then used that as the measure of a character?

    That is not the point here. Some people here want to make progress useless by scaling enemies to your progress !
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I think we've gone off topic with this scaling idea that will never happen.

    Back to topic, item level needs a lot of adjustments. The free cloak that you get when you turn level 70 has the same item level as a legendary cloak lol.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • smulchsmulch Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 625 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    jaotut wrote: »
    I think we've gone off topic with this scaling idea that will never happen.

    Back to topic, item level needs a lot of adjustments. The free cloak that you get when you turn level 70 has the same item level as a legendary cloak lol.

    Whoa, the original post had nothing to do with power creeping or monster scaling. Can we keep that out of this please?
  • isaintify1isaintify1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 414 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    LFM for elol 4k+ item level!........ I am tired of seeing this bs.. -_-
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