test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
How to Fight TRs in PVP
pointsman
Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
I am 99% a PVE guy, and it made me very sad when TRs were nerfed in the past because of people crying on the forums due to being killed in PVP, because I saw many excellent PVE TRs get nerfed at the same time. It took a long time for TRs to get back their abilities and make the class a viable one again. But now that they are on top again in PVP, the forum crying has returned, and we risk having the cycle of buff -> forum crying -> nerf happening all over again for TRs.
So to break this cycle, I think it behooves all of us, including TRs, to offer helpful advice to those players who can't seem to figure out a good strategy for fighting them in PVP, the idea being, if more people were informed as to viable strategies, the less frustration there would be in PVP, the less forum crying there would be, and the lower chances for catastrophic nerfs to occur again for TRs.
In the past some people have offered some very trollish strategies, such as "CWs should use Lantern or Steal Time!" which don't work because they are easily dodged by the aware TR. So, no troll strategies please.
I will start off: I have found that when a TR first dazes you with Smoke Bomb, your initial impulse is to try to walk backwards out of the daze. Don't do that, because the TR will then roll in your direction, and then be right next to you as you are walking backwards to hit you with a Duelist's Flurry bleed or some other nasty encounter. So instead, move out of the Smoke Bomb stun at an angle from the direction that you think the TR is initially. He may still be able to roll in your direction, but it will be less likely. You may even want to walk forwards out of the stun, anticipating that the TR will roll forwards.
Another strategy that I have found helpful is to always always always slot some damage mitigation encounter. You can't go full DPS. For HR that is something like Fox Shift, for CW that is probably Shield. It will mitigate part of that initial Lashing Blade from stealth.
Also, every class has some sort of prone or stun and you have to save it for when you see the TR is vulnerable. That would be right after he has landed some attack on you. For HR it would be Disruptive Shot, for CW it might be Entangling Force or Icy Rays.
Any more helpful tips?
So to break this cycle, I think it behooves all of us, including TRs, to offer helpful advice to those players who can't seem to figure out a good strategy for fighting them in PVP, the idea being, if more people were informed as to viable strategies, the less frustration there would be in PVP, the less forum crying there would be, and the lower chances for catastrophic nerfs to occur again for TRs.
In the past some people have offered some very trollish strategies, such as "CWs should use Lantern or Steal Time!" which don't work because they are easily dodged by the aware TR. So, no troll strategies please.
I will start off: I have found that when a TR first dazes you with Smoke Bomb, your initial impulse is to try to walk backwards out of the daze. Don't do that, because the TR will then roll in your direction, and then be right next to you as you are walking backwards to hit you with a Duelist's Flurry bleed or some other nasty encounter. So instead, move out of the Smoke Bomb stun at an angle from the direction that you think the TR is initially. He may still be able to roll in your direction, but it will be less likely. You may even want to walk forwards out of the stun, anticipating that the TR will roll forwards.
Another strategy that I have found helpful is to always always always slot some damage mitigation encounter. You can't go full DPS. For HR that is something like Fox Shift, for CW that is probably Shield. It will mitigate part of that initial Lashing Blade from stealth.
Also, every class has some sort of prone or stun and you have to save it for when you see the TR is vulnerable. That would be right after he has landed some attack on you. For HR it would be Disruptive Shot, for CW it might be Entangling Force or Icy Rays.
Any more helpful tips?
Post edited by pointsman on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
all in all it won´t change a lot, since the advantage this class has is far to big
In this case the class that's still better suited to take on the TRs are HRs.
(1) high resilience through deflect chance on par with average TRs
(2) more efficient self-sustenance through Wilds Med and regen
(3) choice of self buffs from self-heals to damage resist + DoT dropper self-buff that stops bleeds/DoTs..
(4) 10sec interval repetition of dazes
(5) root that cannot be dodged with high-damage (even if assuming the double proc bug is fixed)
(6) a fast activating, wide-angle AoE melee attack that doesn't require targeting, and still hits with high damage
(7) gap-closer, gap-opener
(8) faster movement speed than the TR, making melee combos/chains more difficult
(9) stealth of their own
(10) persistent/long duration DoTs which inflict severe pressure on stealth
...everything of HRs reek of anti-TR and frankly, if the TRs were not buffed so much in mod5, people would be still complaining about HRs since nothing fundamental has changed for them from their own "OP era" of mod3.
Currently, with some poorly designed OP features and bug exploits most TR builds have an upperhand against HRs. If such were toned down/nerfed, my guess is that a well-built HR would be at least on par with TRs.
Can you be more specific as to which encounters these refer to? I presume that you mean "Marauder's Charge" when you are referring to a gap opener? What is the gap closer you are referring to, and what is the HR stealth ability?
In my opening post I provided specific encounter and daily references, might you do the same?
Edit: Sorry, I meant "Marauder's Escape" for the gap opener.
Let people find out on their own what works best vs classes.
We don't need EASY buttons that people can copy and paste.
If players cannot be creative then after you teach them cookie cutter ways to counter, tr will just make new attacks and the cycle begins again.
They never should have added the 2 second reveal on TR and 90% of TR would not be set to perma daze / one hit wonder.
(obviously)
With a fresh new-level60 HR, with AH bought Draconic gear, I stand at 41% deflection. This HR I've created 1 year ago, which at that time, I did not even know how to build HRs so the stats are sub-optimal.
My carefully built, constructed TR, with both deflection stats at over 20, all deflection boons invested into, with Profound Scoundrel gear which has highest deflectio - stands at 43%.
Imagine a thief trying to pickpocket a victim without his knowledge. If the victim is unaware and hence couldn't resist, the thief has only committed theft. But if the victim discover and struggle, the thief has committed robbery which deserve a heavier sentence. To place the blame on the victim for knowing, such that the poor thief now has to resort to robbery (rather than walking away with theft) is odd to say the least.
The 2s reveal should not obscure the fact of what TRs are ALWAYS capable of doing - dazes and one shots. In fact it simply allow the victims somewhat of a chance to fight back and that shouldn't be a bad thing.
I'm not asking for "easy buttons". You'll note that in my suggestion for Smoke Bomb, that didn't involve "pressing a button to win". It was a specific tactic that I found is helpful. All I'm doing is asking for people to post their tips, so that when new players get frustrated by dying over and over again to TRs and they come to the forums, instead of instantly raging "NERF TR!!!!!", they can first read a thread like this one, acquire some tips that they might NOT have figured out on their own, try them out, and see if they work, hence avoiding the NERF TR!!!!! raging and the ensuing overnerfing of TRs once again.
Many skills can be countered by a proper gear build.
Most characters I encountered and killed with one hit had low hit points, like*20-25.000*with only a small amount of defense, deflect and tenacity. Such offensive builds don’t work against TR’s anymore.
The so called “one shot TR” is an Executioneer TR and most likely build for PvE, his only capability lays in his first attack.
To survive such an attack I would suggest at least 30.000 to 38.000 hit points with regeneration beyond 1.000 and a damage resistance of at least 32% and 22% tenacity. An Executioneer attacks when he is in stealth. The attack automatically makes a critical hit and a feat grants the TR the ability to ignore 25% of your resistance in addition with his normal 25% armor penetration he can bypass 50% of total damage resistance. But if you have more than that tenacity kicks in and reduce the damage drastically because the effect of it got pushed some weeks ago.
Don’t get me wrong. Such a hit hurts badly and if deflect doesn’t work you lose like 80-90% of your life.
Now you must survive the upcoming effect of Shadow of Demise. This will kick in within 6 seconds after the first big attack and deal 50% of the damage he has given you with his first attack (very small time frame). Some skills grant immunity of this kind of damage. TRs can use Bloodbath because it grants damage immunity while it is casted but other skills that grant damage immunity work too. If you don’t own such a skill you must heal up immediately to at least 50% of your total health. A PvP Potion is helpful but high regeneration and life steal can work too, GWF’s must use unstoppable and DC’s use some heal spells.
If you want to see him dead you must prone or CC the Executioneer. A TR which is prone can’t use ITC to make himself immune. If you have no prone attacks get distance FAST and avoid to get hit.
Good attacks against him are still prone and cc. If he gets in ITC you must avoid him because he will try to flurry you. If he runs out of ITC you attack him and try to understand his rotation of ITC and find an opening to get a big attack on him. But to attack him constantly with small attacks can work too (like the beam of the SW + dots).
If your team has problems against a TR face him with 2vs1 to wipe him out fast. If you have not the chance because the odds in the match are against you match an well experienced GF against him but I would most likely recommend an CW which should try to CC the TR with Ice spells (even an Average CW means trouble for an TR).
A DC is a good opponent too but only if you don’t need him on another spot (depends on your match). SW only can face a TR if they prone him first and make a damage rotation on him. If you didn’t get him prone, get out fast and try again.
GWF’s are node holders against TR’s. This means you are more likely to lose against the TR but you can block him for like 2-4 minutes and can win against him if he lacks in skill but most likely it will be a hard fight for you and don’t try to go in unstoppable and attack him. Good TR’s will manage to go in Duelist Flurry which grant him CC immunity and in combination with stealth he ignores 50% of your damage resistance while activating Shadow Of Demise in addition every hit will hit critical. Such a reckless behavior will kill you.
Use unstoppable as counter if he tries another big attack like lashing blade again. Your only chance to get him down is to prone him or depleting him of Stamina and ITC which gives you a big opening.
If all my advices fail: mock him. Try to kick him from the spot (1 and 3 at Mt. Hotenow Arena) or dodge/running away from him. Try to prolong the duel of the spot as long as possible it will give your team a chance to win the match for you and short tempered TR-Players (and there are a lot out there) will get annoyed and leave the spot or try to avoid you to get fast kills.
This advice won't be effective in mod 6.
Guardian Fighter: Don't be clutched in your Guard Stance. Often GFs are crabing around to make my approach harder and charge at me on sight, using knocking down abilities immediately after that. Problem is that I'm ranged, so GFs have hard times to pinpoint my position since I attack then from a distance. Usually they go on 2nd node and leave me to someone else.
Greate Weapon Fighter: Attack That Locks Character with Phantoms kinda works. Also Sword Spinning encounter can catch me while I'm rolling around and drags in, closer to GWF. But usually GWFs can't do anything with me. Only if I outleveled they can stomp me.
Control Wizard: Choking and Freezing works well. Daggers are pointless, since I can simple do a roll to avoid them. Also it's important to dodge away and keep distance. Common mistake that I see is that CW want to control and to kill TR, while he's better at control.
Hunter Ranger: Creating a gap is not that useful, since I can Deft Strike you and cross it in a split second. However switching between Melee/Range is useful since I can't target HR in between. Basically these are invulnerable frames - during gap changing powers, during AoE melee attacks, stealth and so on. Also rooting is very effective, but not from that AoE power.
Scourge Warlock: Sorry, guys, never see anything strong from you. T_T Ray thingy is kinda annoying, but that's it I think.
Devoted Cleric: Best TR's counter so far. I've recently played a match, where DC just stood on a node. All my damage was healed, even when our GWF joined the party. Switching to dazing powers didn't make situation better since even in dazed state that DC kept healing and neglecting my damage. So I ended up just leaving nodes upon his arrival. Also their AoE heal&repel can mess up stealth routine.
General Tips:
-Don't stay too close together on a node, because of Smoke. Also keep mobility for the same reason.
-In duel with TR make short moves, since TR's dodge is rather long.
-If TR flees from a duel it doesn't mean he actually flees. More likely he is going to drop combat state and return with one-shot attack.
-Since TR in stealth, you still can predict his movements and use non-target & AoE attack. Usually TR use either stealth or CC-immune.
-If you are alone and is capping a node (especially home node in the beginning of the match) NEVER EVER do this on your mount. First TR's attack will send you in Prone and then you will be dazed and one-shoted even before you'll be able to fight.
That all I can come up with atm, but I'll elaborate on any questions that you have.
Most likely but Modul 6 is not there it will take 2-3 month till release and new feats and powers can mix stuff up. This means no one knows what will happen in Modul 6.
great combat tips
I agree that TRs are OP right now.
I agree that they probably ought to be nerfed a little bit.
I don't agree that they should be nerfed into the dust like they were in mod1 and going forward up to this moment.
I started this post in order to mitigate and hopefully prevent some forum crying over TRs. Incidentally, I don't play a TR myself, so I have little to gain personally in not wanting to see them nerfed to oblivion. My personal self-interest is the same as most of the forum cryers - "nerf them, make me OP!" But I don't want that.
Keeping that in mind, there are a ton of trs running around who are new players and will make all kinds of mistakes.
That said, some very general useful tips vs TR's:
1. Always be moving, and do not move in a predictable pattern.
2. LISTEN, preferably with headphones. You will almost always hear a swish or other similar sound effect when a TR is around.
3. FACE the TR, or at least the direction you think it is coming from.
4. Attack attack attack. Do not run away from a TR unless you are in a crowd and can quickly evade him. Once you are locked onto as a target he will keep after you.
5. Do not run away.
All of the above: TR's are not always in stealth and when you try to run away is often when they come out of stealth to just focus on finishing you. A target with low hp that is running away is not a target a tr sees as a threat so this is most likely when he won't be in either stealth or ITC. Also TRs have certain attacks that work much better from behind an opponent than an opponent that is facing him.
That is about it. Mainly simply just keep attacking a tr. This is a dps race which the tr has the advantage in. Don't just stand still and attack, but move and attack. Though the tr has the advantage in the dps race, he cannot continue to attack if he wants to stealth, and he cannot always be in itc. When he is in neither is when he is most vulnerable.
And do't stand still. Move around, a lot.
Honestly, I don't feel the combat tips being useful even to the slightest extent.
Experience so far has always been once the TR breaks stealth, it's only a matter of time to be burst down unless you have team mates around to help out (which is of course unlikely)
What's even ironic are some of the earlier posts from TR 'advising' how to combat them...
I don't even see a window of opportunity doing that, instead the situation is aggravated by showing the flurry of moves that's incoming after a TR break stealth and we just have to "try to survive"...
If a 14k TR can burst down a 21k GF in a matter of seconds, I don't even see how a squishy class can stand to this.
Only counter I've seen happening is if my surrounding team mate is also a TR and he breaks stealth to burst that opposing TR down before he burst me down.
For the records, I usually don't run. (since there's no point)
Paranoid to an extend I sometimes dodge around an empty node.
Let me know if there's really a viable counter. The above just don't cut it.
Everyone gets it by now - the TRs have too many advantages in PVP. Making a million threads, and complaining in every marginaly related thread won't change things. They need to find solutions, not destroy the class again.
The thread was about sharing tactics, but it was immediately flooded by complaints that don't go beyond "TRs are op." Well, they might be, but if that's your whole
input, while other people can come up with strategies, and even say TRs are not a problem for them, you gotta admit you kinda suck at PVP.
I too have trouble seeing a window of opportunity attacking them. They enter and exit stealth so quickly. The "stealth reveal" really is rather worthless.
I'd like to attack but honestly I am having difficulty coming up with offensive strategies. Your insight would be appreciated.
I mean, when he's in stealth I don't have a target to attack.
What generally happens is:
First, a Smoke Bomb lands from stealth. So I'm dazed and slowed for several seconds. While I am trying to escape the daze, the TR can often get close enough to me to land a Duelist's Flurry or some encounter, I am often not even sure which one. He is often revealed at this point but I cannot attack him here, since I'm still dazed. And by that time Shadow of Demise has procced and it's basically over. So the challenge for me is to avoid the Smoke Bomb daze in the first place; or, barring that, to exit the daze safely so as to avoid the TR's second attack. That is what I am working on now.
I agree that you have only about 10 seconds to kill the TR. If you don't kill him by then, you won't ever in that encounter and you might as well just give up or run away.
Well to be honest, the ones saying "TRs are not a problem for them" are just trolls of another kind. Unless there is a HUGE gear imbalance, any TR is a threat to any class.
I don't want to see TRs nerfed to oblivion because I care way more about PVE in this game than any imbalanced PVP. And I believe that the more forum crying there is about TRs, the harder the nerf bat will swing on them once it inevitably comes, which will just unnecessarily harm the PVE TRs. It seems as though the devs only have very limited tools for adjusting encounters and feats to work with PVP only, so while it might be nice to say "adjust TRs for PVP only", I don't know how practical of advice that really is.
The OP was trying to be as objective as possible and we do appreciate inputs if they are viable.
As almost everyone has stated, this needs to tone down. (even some TRs themselves)
"Admit you kinda suck in PvP?"
How about you trying to play a non-TR class and execute the mentioned tips?
Tell you what? I'll applaud you for even trying.
Who did not work hard for their main character?
Everyone would have spent a ton of time on theirs.
What? No? You've enjoyed a broken class too much?
So who sucks now?
As far as I can see it is the most practical way to solve this and any similar problem. The alternative is to keep nerfing and reworking, then nerfin powers and feats again and again till the end of times.
- Prior to Mod 5 as a CW I had an even chance against a TR
- TR's typically now top 5v5 pvp, unless they are noobies or have not read how to build the class
- No 9k GS should invis/ 1 crit hit (often) or 17k GS other classes.
- if I use my CW stun, etc etc spells against a TR, their effect is short or just plain misses, whereas their spells will hold me for 3-5 seconds then I am one hit dead.
Maybe record some random 1v1 fights and work out why your post mod 4 coding made them unkillable.
But, my suggestion would be for you to try to be on the receiving end(dont play TR) and post the video about it and we can see whether it's really realistic or just theory.
For me, all those wont help. It's either oneshot-from-stealth or perma daze (cannot even use any Powers or Shield), just to be killed later.
Well there is this at the start of my "pointers":
Non stop dodging/moving is imo one of the most critically important things a player can do in pvp. Especially on node, even alone. It might look stupid but constantly erratic movement with multiple dodges thrown in makes a tough target and if the smokebomb lands while your dodging, you are good to go.
In a group, you can't stand with your team mates for a ton of good reasons beyond smokebomb. Gotta hit the tr with everything you have, especially if cc is available, as soon as he becomes apparent. If there are two team mates on the node, gotta watch the other one, especially when you know a tr is around. If both are watching the other and ready to strike almost at the other, the tr will make his move and the team mate that is not his target has to react immediately as soon as the tr attacks. In a group, the tr has to be focused as soon as he appears. It is a supreme single target killing machine that does not do so great against a coordinated team. When a tr is allowed to cause panic in the ranks though, that team has lost the node or whatever skirmish is going on.
Every class has encounters that works well against trs imo.
They are easy mode, they are rough sauce, and they need balanced- at least execs and sabs. But it being, what it is, I think it is almost manageable. The game being domination and not kill/death ratio, I would love to see more requests for how to best manage opposing tr's to acheive a domination win rather than "how to beat the tr".
all my humble opinion.