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M6 - Control Wizard change - What to expect ?
nathyiel
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
The change on preview can be read here.
But the discussion is closed. I think it might be a good idea to open a topic on the subject in a little less restrictive fashion than the [Feedback] system to emulate a complementary discussion.
But here's my opinion on what we actually know.
Class feature - both seem a little underwhelming. If Spell Storm mage have more choice there, Master of Flame rely too much on Critical Conflagration to make room for other choice.
> Arcane Power Field - it's damage will need to be balance to be as effective than Storm Spell for example.
> Frost Wave - I'm not sure that an additional control to daily is interesting. All our Daily are already controlling spell. It can work if it was at the end of the Daily effect. Is the immobilization considered as a Freeze (proc and immunity)? How many target is affected?
Feats
Oppressor
> Frigid Winds - it's what was lacking in the tree. How much did it last ?
> Icy Veins - it's what was lacking for MoF but it's redundant with Chilling Control (Spell Storm). Did it have an Internal Cooldown or is it after every Encounter use ?
Thaumaturge
> Elemental Reinforcement - it's a good idea because it promote spell diversity.
> Spell Twisting - interesting idea but I fear that 10% per stack are too big. Maybe a fixed amount could work better.
Renegade
> Uncertain Allegiance - it's along the buff thematic of the tree.
> Abyss Chaos - 2 things here:
I will post later a more general feedback on the whole class.
But the discussion is closed. I think it might be a good idea to open a topic on the subject in a little less restrictive fashion than the [Feedback] system to emulate a complementary discussion.
But here's my opinion on what we actually know.
Class feature - both seem a little underwhelming. If Spell Storm mage have more choice there, Master of Flame rely too much on Critical Conflagration to make room for other choice.
> Arcane Power Field - it's damage will need to be balance to be as effective than Storm Spell for example.
> Frost Wave - I'm not sure that an additional control to daily is interesting. All our Daily are already controlling spell. It can work if it was at the end of the Daily effect. Is the immobilization considered as a Freeze (proc and immunity)? How many target is affected?
Feats
Oppressor
> Frigid Winds - it's what was lacking in the tree. How much did it last ?
> Icy Veins - it's what was lacking for MoF but it's redundant with Chilling Control (Spell Storm). Did it have an Internal Cooldown or is it after every Encounter use ?
Thaumaturge
> Elemental Reinforcement - it's a good idea because it promote spell diversity.
> Spell Twisting - interesting idea but I fear that 10% per stack are too big. Maybe a fixed amount could work better.
Renegade
> Uncertain Allegiance - it's along the buff thematic of the tree.
> Abyss Chaos - 2 things here:
- Did it have an Internal Cooldown or a proc chance?
- Isn't 300% weapon damage a little too big ? It's the same amount than the final feat of Oppressor (Shatter Strike).
I will post later a more general feedback on the whole class.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
It's really hard to say exactly how good (or bad) these things are without knowing how much damage they really contribute.
And to that last point, you have to consider the class features you would swap out for those new class features. As it stands now, I don't thing either class feature appears to be better than what current builds are using, but who knows...maybe there's some totally new meta to consider.
Anyway, really looking forward to getting on the test server this week and seeing how these changes work.
Yes, because every PVE CW needs Severe Reaction and Far Spell
I'm not overly concerned. Something needed to be done, and at least on paper that seems like a fair way to do it.
But honestly, I think the 100% lifesteal severity will need to be dropped down, maybe 75% or even 50%. At least for CW's.
Frigid Winds looks like a free High Vizier stack for everyone. Presuming that we get Lvl 70 gear that is finally superior to High Vizier in Mod 6, we might need to take this one.
Elemental Reinforcement and Spell Twisting both look very nice, and a tough decision. 15% more damage, or cooldowns reduced by 30%? If we get 10 more feat points, I might have to take both.
Abyss of Chaos - lol more piercing damage. If our weapon damages in Mod 6 is around 900, then that would mean 2.7k unresistable damage every time we fire an encounter. This feat probably comes with some sort of ICD, I can't imagine it would be put forth onto live without an ICD.
Compared to these, Uncertain Allegiance looks kinda meh actually.
About the class features, Arcane Field and Frost Wave sound very cool, but I can't see changing out Critical Conflagration or Swath of Destruction for them. I suppose if there were some hugely add-filled dungeon in Mod 6 that required super-duper levels of control, that Frost Wave would be useful. But I thought the design philosophy was to get away from that style of dungeons. Who knows. Arcane Field requires more details in order to know if it actually would be useful or not, such as how much the damage of the field is.
I'm not so much concerned as I am hopeful. It feels ludicrous to stand in the middle of 15 enemies with all of them attempting to hack me to bits and all of them failing because I can magically heal myself twice as fast as they damage me no matter how hard they hit. After the fun and the novelty of it wears off you realize it really has a detrimental effect on the game. Tanks and healers are really useless. DPS classes reign supreme because they have no weakness. Their fragility is completely covered up by god-like healing capabilities tied to damage output.
I feel it needs to change. My only concern is that they won't go far enough in toning down lifesteal. Or that they'll try and get too much push-back from people who use their lifesteal as a crutch to avoid having to play carefully, or intelligently, or with parties that complement their class.
Personally, I think that the change to lifesteal is too big of a nerf. it's gonna be detrimental to the game in the long run. If we are forced to run with a healer, then it becomes a pain to make groups.
But I like the change. People have been asking for harder PvE content. The lifesteal change alone (combined with higher level dungeons) is going to make PvE harder.
I would have expected certain people here to embrace that.
The new passives would be fine... only if there was a third slot for passives.
The "shift" thing is quite smelly. "Feats previously available at 10 points have been moved to 15, those available at 15 have been moved to 20, and so on.' You need to reach 65 just to get back your CW as he is now?
Making LS a random, unreliable proc, while being a harm for any class except TR and OP, is a PITA-er harm for CW, as in the tipical solo fights for dailies and minidungeons, despite being ranged you cannot always avoid taking damage from some archer foe or from another group of foes besides the group you're already processing. Regen was not a core stat for CWs but of course removing it doesn't help either.
I am definitely hoping for somewhat of a challenge, however, I suspect that these changes alone are NOT going to be enough to provide it. I still expect to see people chain pulling dungeons and will not be surprised at all if I see that happening, the lifesteal nerf might seem big, but for CW's, I somehow don't think it will be a problem. Think about it this way, if you hit a group of say 30 adds with icy terrain, and have a lifesteal chance of 10% you likely to get a lifesteal on at least 1 or 2. Say your Icy terrain hits for 10k on each target (I know I am low balling and it can hit for a lot more) then if it hits only 2 targets you get healed for 20k HP. What I do expect this change to make impossible though is things like the dracolich solo, as DoT's will not be a good enough life source to keep you going during the roar. The big exception for this of coarse being the TR class, who is all wonderful and can activate ITC DURING the roar, so even if it hits them they can still dodge it and if they careful with shadow strike, they can then restealth, drink a pot and keep going
I use it with Steal Time, which averages 7-8k damage, great for killing off RedCaps or Thayan Servitors.
My problem with Icy Veins is it's overpowered. Like another poster before me, you'd only need to cast some powers and everything would be frozen. That's great for killing off adds and other things, but I don't see it as that practical for PvP.
Heh, agree with you. Just remembered a rule I learnt on "some other MMRPG" -> "If the tank dies, blame the healer. If the healer dies, blame the tank. If the damage dealer die, it's their own fault."
I don't mind on control.
I don't main on damage.
I only mind on FUN.
I have reached higher state of FUNNESS!
Icy Veins does look good, but I also expect an internal cool down or a nerf. But the Oppressor Tree is still very underpowered for both PvE and PvP. That is sad.
The new feats for both Thaumaturge and Oppressor do look good. Effective and interesting.
But, the Renegade feats are off. They are BOTH buffs that seem purely PvE buff feats. IMHO, one should probably be switched with Phantasmal Destruction or simply reworked.
I'm interested and looking forward to testing all this. Given the TR changes ... we will need a big buff to survive in PvP.
That is the point of Renegade now. It's the party buff tree.
renegade
[ren-i-geyd]
noun
1.
a person who deserts a party or cause for another.
2.
an apostate from a religious faith.
adjective
3.
of or like a renegade; traitorous.
Synonyms
1. traitor, deserter, betrayer, dissenter.
Doesn't sound like a Party buffer... Oh well. Makes me smile knowing the developers are on drugs as good as mine :rolleyes:
Thaum should be the buff tree. Renegade the Damage.
Devil's advocate response: your comment looks and sounds like an oxymoron. Why must you rely on other players at all? By not relying on other players you have what you want: harder content. Otherwise, how you obtain "harder content without relying on other players" - and also without the changes to Regen and Lifesteal as implemented?
My contribution to this thread theme is that I like the changes to regain and Lifesteal *as they appear on paper*. It turns the content harder while at the same time bringing back validity to some of the other classes (tanks and healers) which is win-win all around. However we won;t see how well all this works out until we get to actually test these changes and see how it all works first-hand.
And however it works: good, bad, horrible - is all the point of *testing and feedback* - so whatever it is that it turns out to be, we have the opportunity to ask for corrections, changes, fine-tuning, etc. I found during the major changes in DC Feedback thread the Devs were very open to making some changes in some things, other things were WAI: full-stop.
So let's hope these changes work as well in practice and they do on paper. For now they look promising on many levels of game-player, no matter which class you enjoy, including CW. I have at least one of every class (four Wizard - both SS and MoF) so I'll be play-testing all this stuff to the hilt, especially on my MoF version.
We lost that argument back during testing for IWD (mod3).
The most interesting is the new oppressor T3 (Icy veins), combined with Chilling Presence & Chilling Control will be a frightening amount of short ranged chill stack based damage. Inside 15' you should be able to apply 10 stacks of chill with Sudden Storm as a single cast (expect this to get nerfed almost instantly).
I disagree wholeheartedly. Renegade has been the critical tree and currently is the PvP tree. Forcing an entire tier of party buffs would be like taking Thaumaturge and putting in an entire tier of Tenacity buffs that must be taken to continue down the tree. It's .... puzzling at best and crippling at worst.
The Renegade feats are by far the worst feats from my perspective. I would gladly have any of the other 4 over either of the bad Renegade feats. The fact that you view Renegade as a PvE buffbot seems naive in the grand scheme of things.
These Renegade feats are throw away feats. Force feeding PvE so that everyone goes back to. Cookie cutter Thaumaturge build while still getting the best Oppressor feats from the first 3 tiers. It's bad design IMHO.
OMG finally someone who understands
In short, I think it's a good change as it will reinforce the control part of CW. A lot of situation will be more challenging with less reliable Life-steal.
In the proposed change, I see that its mostly damage increase instead of tiny dot. I really think M6 should be a good time to increase the damage part that come from ability instead of other effect, especially for Spell Storm.
Heroic Encounter level 63 mobs hit hard (little crabs are vicious) and often. I was on my GWF wearing Templar gear with 5200 defense, 1900 deflect, and 34k health and the little crabs were buzz sawing though my health (Avatar of War set was like tissue paper so changed it out) in Unstoppable. The crabs were chewing through my friends TR even with ITC and Smoke Bomb.
I really do not think SP thaurm in High Vizier using COI, Icy Terrain, Sudden Storm, and Steal Time without Life Steal (old version) will be viable anymore. Controlling adds through Entangling, Singularity, and Furious Immolation will likely become required. The days of easy peasy kills and stupid insane dps may be over.
I do not see any of this as a "NERF" but just moving all classes back into line for more party friendly groups.
As long as we get damage in the amount as other classes I am ok with it.
For example TR's Deathknell will be OP as hell!
Arcane Power Field? good dmg I hope.
Frost Wave? Is this some kind of automatic stun? Oppforce is already stunning everyone so...
Thaumaturgy: decent and interesting damage buff (which brings some thinking in your rotation), cd reduction: ok
Renegade:
Abyss of Chaos: more piercing damage?
This is just another opportunity for pvp QQers to undermine CW!
Piercing dmg is not good for pve because you have already maxed your armor pen.
Abyss of Chaos's mechanism is reminding me of assailant btw.
Oppressor:
Icy Veins: you can truly be control with this. This makes chilling control obsolete.