You can still attack while doing that exact rotation while either being Executioner and stacking SoD procs or Scoundrel and dazing while maintaining the node.
That video is another proof that TR has the best of everything.
Anyways, last post in this topic, no point in discussing anything about TR since it will get ignored by the devs.
Sir... with all due respect that's basically a very old, (and very abandoned) pre-mod2 method of permastealthing which had a brief "moment of glory" when pandora reintroduced it to WKs, last year, a few months before mod5 announcement and preview...
I didn't take into account the increase in dodges would make the BnS-SS rotation still possible, so you've got me there I'll admit, but the way your rotations are barely fitting in simply makes any use of at-wills out of the question, nor any encounters.
The way I see this is working, my guess would be you simply run around the node like that doing nothing much, and then use encounters or attacks moments before the stealth bar expires, and then immediately restealth and just walk around waiting for attacks to recharge... and then the longer you do this the AP bar just automatically fills up since you're in combat... hence, soon ready for a nice BB spam to deal the real damage as well as recharge everything.
I'm not sure if you're serious as in bringing this up as a real combat build, which to me looks more of a specialized node-trolling build rather than an actual combat build. For one thing, if a Scoundrel is doing that, then he sure isn't going to be keeping anyone dazed and under pressure like how it upsets people like jarec.
Sir, I can understand why a node-troll build like this would work in premade level, by simply making the TR give up everything else to do nothing but survive as long as possible and bother people, and thus, contributing to winning according to domination rules... but it's sort of like watching a point-driven fighter in a professional boxing ring, who 'touches' the other guy in the right spot, and then clinches at the speed of light, and basically end up winning the fight through points, rather than a knockout or even a real fight.
I'm not sure you can convince any other TR players in this thread that is supposed to be a combat build which "fights and keeps people dazed all the time while remaining in perma". It sure doesn't have me convinced....
That is entirely different than fighting and staying perma. That is knowledge alright, common knowledge and nothing of interest there.
Although that video is a common knowledge among TR but its not about that..he is just merely proving TR could hold a node without fighting or revealing himself..i mean if i m a TR i could just buy a bot program and do this at a specific node to farm my glory..not much skill needed.
Although that video is a common knowledge among TR but its not about that..he is just merely proving TR could hold a node without fighting or revealing himself..i mean if i m a TR i could just buy a bot program and do this at a specific node to farm my glory..not much skill needed.
Not really, in order to accomplish this the TR must have a target -- a target in range of the node and not being evasive or reacting in any way other than to be a target for the TR to use SS on. If the target backs out the TR cannot accomplish this. If the target reacts the TR cannot accomplish this (unless the target is particularly inept and clumsy that is).
Although that video is a common knowledge among TR but its not about that..he is just merely proving TR could hold a node without fighting or revealing himself..i mean if i m a TR i could just buy a bot program and do this at a specific node to farm my glory..not much skill needed.
Which in case simply confirms that a "stand on spot to contest" mechanics were faulty from the start, sir. In a manner of speaking, such a method of 'contesting' was always possible with any perma-TRs long before mod5, and even in mod4 where the TRs were considered to be at their all-time-low, this method was still possible.
If that be the case, then I must humbly point-out that all the initial premises about this discussion simply falls apart. It becomes evident that it is hardly the mod5 changes/buffs to the TRs that are the problem with this specific line of reasoning which resulted in a node-trolling build, but rather a problem that always persisted with the TRs from the start. In other words, sir, the "OP" joocy is referring to has not much to do with mod5 TRs at all, but it has dangers of seriously misleading many people into thinking that somehow Scoundrels or Execs can permastealth like Sabos, and agressively fight and kill and contest nodes as one would expect of any TR build -- to the point that would make decent CW players like jarecsteph above so much angry.
It's adding more fuel to this fire of misconception, bias and prejudice against all TRs, sir, and I don't think its healthy for the community to be receiving more (intentional or no) misinformation.
You'll see my friend. I did not touch bloodpath a single time. Just used Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike. And could maintain stealth forever. Without EVER breaking it.
Each one of the 3 trees can do that.
The TR I'm using in the video is my sibling's TR. It's executioner but it doesn't matter. Scoundrel can do the same as well since I'm not using anything but Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch.
You'll be pretty surprised once the video uploads. It's at 40% right now.
It does matter that the TR you used is an Executioner. 20% faster base Stealth Regen was it
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
No need to argue
the fact is TR become OP in every path
in prev server later deflec sev already nerf to 50% and other nerf to come
which one TR ability will be nerf? Who knows just don't be surprice when the time come
just prepare your money for create next op class LOL
No need to argue
the fact is TR become OP in every path
in prev server later deflec sev already nerf to 50% and other nerf to come
which one TR ability will be nerf? Who knows just don't be surprice when the time come
just prepare your money for create next op class LOL
It does matter that the TR you used is an Executioner. 20% faster base Stealth Regen was it
To be fair, friend emilemo, the video friend joocy posted doesn't have much relevance to the SoD stealth regen since he was in stealth the entire time... but yes, the faster stealth meter regeneration does matter, in that the stealth regen does not halt for Execs due to SoD features. When this is combined with Tenacious Concealment + artifact offhand power, this means that whenever the Exec pops out of stealth, no amount of damage is going to stop him from going back to stealth because his stealth regen will not be stopped nor hacked away through damage.
I've actually been seeing a slow steady increase in Execs that do not use SS at all. These TRs have usually ITC/LB/SB setup, and after using LB, will use SB or ITC in combination with dodges, according to situation.. and basically survive the next moments until the 'unstoppable' stealth meter naturally refills.
Not touching TR build, IMO dev should make a ward that make us see through stealth at the node vicinity to prevent that kinda troll..else perma stealth TR would have more advantage at node holding
while middle trs did struggle in mod 4, top trs were on the op side. There was a reason for the stealth change as it was way too strong and with red glyphs trs were doing way too much dmg... If i recall correct the only class that could compete with them was HR.
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ikewoodzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited January 2015
I have an alt TR with executioner path. I just created it to know my enemy. When I use Lashing Blade on someone with the first strike and all, even if they survive the initial attack they can't run away from SoD. Seriously it is not a fight, it is execution. You may have fun killing things like that, it is certainly not fun when you're playing the other side. When I had 12,5k gs i was one-shotting 15-16k gs CW's and other classes. And you can do that if you spec your path correctly.
Btw regarding the video, I once killed 4 person (some were hurt although none was below %60 health) in a node using Smoke Bomb, Shadow Strike, Lashing Blade and Whirlwind of Blades in daily slot. I know it's not perma-stealth or whatever it is somewhat immune to damage. I started with WoB daily in stealth and since after using it, you are not removed from stealth and then I used smoke bomb, dazed and slow everyone in the node and used SS on one of them and used Lashing Blade on the person who had most health. Then used At-Wills and wait for SoD to kick in. Using this rotation (excluding daily even) on 1v1 is imminent death against other classes, no other way.
I don't use TR in PVP that much since honestly I don't like how PVP turned out to be in the game. But I have not seen any class that have the ability to do this kind of thing. You're fast, immune to damage, deal huge damages, have 4 dodges to escape from danger that you can use at whatever build you're using.
This is only my opinion and experience of course. You may still think that TRs are just fine and that's ok since I'll never see you in PVP Happy gaming.
I'm here running in circles for 4 minutes straight without ever breaking stealth. I could go on till the end of time. Watch and learn, mirrorballs, this is some knowledge right here.
PS: Of course I'm not attacking because this is a demonstration video. But I can pull this same thing while attacking opponents in actual PVP with either Scoundrel or Executioner. It's very hard to kill.
Who said its not possible I only need SS to be infinite perma my CD from LB is 12 sec and the rest below 9 seconds my stealth last 12 second or more if I do dodge roll. You just need 40 percent up recharge time no matter what paragon you have. I can even do 3 clones from BnS with KE + SP. and even POTB x3 is possible..
Frankly, as a TR you're the least qualified person to complain about that. Unless proven otherwise, the TR is permastealthed, perma-dazing, it deflects physical damage, magic damage, cc, he OS anything with any AtWill. The only point you have is, a TR can only kill us once per fight. So, it won't need all its permas. Your alleged sickness weighs nothing in front of the facts: watch the first page of russian leaderboard, realize the bare truth and then come back here for an apology.
Greetings, everyone. My toon is a Whisperknife Saboteur with 13k GS. Nice to know that my path is OP.) Sadly, I build him mostly for solo dungeons. D;
Personally, I almost never encountered this issue. Maybe once, but I literally walked away in daze that time. I'm not into PvP much, but from what I've read in many PvP chat logs, main issues about TRs are their insane damage and dodge with ITC.
About permastealth thingy... Usually there is always GWF or DC on my team who know how to handle a troll on our home node. Our you can always use Path of Blades to mess up troll's routine. And as someone said permastealth trolling build doesn't do much damage since stealth loss fix in mod5.
I have an alt TR with executioner path. I just created it to know my enemy. When I use Lashing Blade on someone with the first strike and all, even if they survive the initial attack they can't run away from SoD. Seriously it is not a fight, it is execution.
Seems legit, ha. Anyway either I missed it or no one mentioned interesting Infiltrator Executioner build, when player uses BS, SS and ITC to run around and build AP fast, then oneshots with Shocking Execution.
Also, since we are TRs and know things inside out, maybe we can discuss actual countermeasures against it, not for others TRs, but for every class?
First problem with TRs, sir, are the insane damage they recive from First strike: Lashing blade bypassing/ignoring the amount of defense it does in PvP is madness, sir. IF the target survives that much (sir, do not count for it if the TR is Exec + DoT enchant and the target, if can do so, does not dodged correcly SoD)...
I'm afraid your barking up the wrong tree.
Nobody in this thread so far has yet to claim LB is not OP, nor does it not need to be nerfed. In a separate thread I've even specifically listed down First Strike as needing a nerf, as well as suggested the entire "extra piercing damage" mechanic of SoD be redesigned so it doesn't simply add that damage.
Please do not put words in our mouth, those which we have not even spoken. Many times I have sincerely requested people apt for reasonable discussion, instead of continue with these blanket statements and assumptions that all TRs are out to defend every bit of nooks and crannies in the current incarnation of OPness that is the TR.
...and if the TR is Scoundrel, the target will be stunned thanks to "CONTUSIVE STRIKES" 's mechanic proccing out from crits, which allows the scoundrel to land safely SS and go back into stealth, sir.
I've explained this in another thread as well, but basically when out of stealth it requires an active crit, or "hit-from-behind" for CS to proc, in which case the current trend of TR builds do not really care much for DEX, hence crit stats are on general much lower than what it used to be ages ago. Basically, you are assuming Scoundrels will be able to proc CS always when they want, except that is not true, and since Scoundrels do not have any aids/utilities to help restealth, this means Scoundrels don't rely on CS mechanics in the cases they cannot control it.
There are, of course, situations where you know CS will proc for sure -- for example, in my case I make it a habit of throwing a shot of CoS just before starting the main attack, which will ensure my "big one" will land square and the target won't be able to dodge it. (ex. CoS -> Dazing Strike) But once I am out of stealth due to that attack, from that point on I have no way of knowing whether it will proc exactly after 5 seconds, or maybe 7, or a bad streak of luck leading to 8 or more seconds since the initial activation.
Chance based mechanics are like that, hence since missing out on the timing to go back into stealth means death, no Scoundrel player just builds up his defense strategy upon luck. Rather, we just simply throw SS right before the initial 4 seconds of daze finishes, instead of making a wager that the daze will extend thanks to a great stroke of luck that brings your CS out at the time you need.
I hope you can take my word on this one, because I have no reason to lie about it. That's how us Scoundrels really operate.
If the TR is Sabo, sir, it will stay on stealth due "One With Shadows", sir. So, sir, can you explain us how is possible that "SS" is one of the problems when on this math SS is just used by Scoundrels to go back into Stealth? sir. Sir, IF you play your TR on a less than optimal way, oks, then, maybe, sir, for you and players in your same situation (Morenthar, in example) find the TR-class "fine as it is" and, sir, you do not see the main problem the class has, sir.
Maybe I wasn't clear at the first time.
To explain a bit further, MI Scoundrels that are really into aggressive fighting (unlike the mediocre Scoundrels who just spam Smokebomb) take on skill sets that are better suited to keep the initiative going. Generally, in this case the loadout is ITC/DS/SS.
Scoundrels need to make best use of the timing that the enemy is dazed, because if you miss this timing, then the damage is just pathetic to say the least. So for example if a MI Scoundrel opens up with dazing strike, then he uses that opportunity to attack. Before the daze is over he will throw SS to restealth. In this process, basically the duration of daze is only as long as DS.
Now, why I have mentioned SS, is that in theory, the MI Scoundrel can throw in a few attacks at stealth, and then use SS to replenish the lost stealth meter, and at the same time daze the target for 4+2 seconds. A few more attacks, and just as this initial daze is about to land, he can use DS, so this will result in a chained daze that runs for 10 seconds total.
But what then? After the straight 8 seconds are past, your SS is on cooldown, with about 9~10 more secs to go. Your ITC lasts for only 5, so the rest of 4~5 seconds need to be passed with dodges. You may pass through this alive once, but as the rotations progress the timing to fit ITC and SS gets more difficult, and your attacks are slowed out, requiring more and more time to be spent in stealth without attacking -- which in practice, usually gives the enemy time to recover, or escape.
That's why in actual practice MI Scoundrels don't use SS in that manner. We Scoundrels tend to save SS to be used when out of stealth, not as a daze-extension/stealth refill from within stealth.
This part is different with Sabos, as they have it pretty easy, and due to the process as explained in the opening post, not only can they more easily chain dazes, but through the entire process they remain under stealth.
...hope this explanation wasn't too difficult to understand.
Then, sir, still talking about scoundrels, is the fact that "some" dazes pierces through CC inmunities like unstoppable or dodges as roar did back on mod3... and, sir, the ocean of tears made back there asking for a nerf on it, sir, left Pacific Ocean as a sad and boring puddle, sir, yet seems, sir, that on this mod 5's TR class having the same mechanic is fine, sir.
You probably did not know that I also requested that dazes respect immunities, tenacity, and CC resistances, so I'll just assume comments like these were an honest mistake. I don't assume that you have any 'ulterior motive' or some wacky GWF vendetta agenda just because you are a GWF player. Would it be too much to ask you have the common courtesy to treat other TRs as the same?
The problem is that we change "GWF" or "CW" or "HR" from previous mods to "TR" on this one... if you see that as "fine", it's ok, that does not make the class "fine" at all.
Did I say "fine" somewhere? I don't see it if I've ever said any of the TRs were "fine".
Perhaps discussions and debates tend to become unpleasant and often riled with emotion because people are making up things which the other side not said, nor even implied. Please, let's not do that.
(ps) I can't use the word 'sir' anymore! I've been warned by the moderators that it is a bad thing
Sir, that doesn't balance anything for PvP. It simply destroys the path as to make it victims for any class with any kind of CC -- particularly those armed with ranged CCs. I'm very worried as to the results you seek through such suggestions do not serve any other purpose than to somehow fill your personal need for revenge on a class you hate. I don't find this to be very constructive, sir.
Just for your information, three weeks ago before I decided to cut down my PVP playing time to only 10% because developers didn’t made any change yet, I was at the bottom of page 2 PVP board (only one CW was in front of me and his killed ratio was less than mine and I was without a guild, I was in third place for character without a guild, the only ones in front of me were 2 TR),
The fact is that it’s not fun to fight against TR.
Daze and Impossible to catch are the major problem cut them down and I really think we will be near balance. The rest could be adjusted but those are the main problem.
A large majority of TR use daze effect to start there chain of attack and when daze is fading out use Impossible to catch and then go stealth or daze again if they can. So from an opponent point of view you’re always trying to evade being daze or move away from DPS while Impossible to catch is on. It could be a fun challenge if it was not that the time is too long and the frequencies to short.
And don’t pretend that I hate or I’m not constructive, I love playing against all Neverwinter characters but at the moment TR have some huge balance issues and my constructive way is to point out what I think are the major part of it.
All the people that are defending the current TR is straight out lying, its the best and most OP class in the game so far. I did main TR for a long long time, didnt play it at all during mod 4 but geard it up to mod 5 with inc changes.
I got myself to page 1 at the LB (not that it rly matters since its corrupted) then a stoped playing it. It is just way to strong and not using DF anymore wich was one of my favourite skill is just boring. The TR is the best class in a 1on1, nobody beats it if skills/gear are at the same lvl. AND its the only class that can survive vs 2 or more enemys for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemys. Tell me ANY other class in the game that can do this on equal gear/skill lvl ofc.
All the people that are defending the current TR is straight out lying, its the best and most OP class in the game so far. I did main TR for a long long time, didnt play it at all during mod 4 but geard it up to mod 5 with inc changes.
I got myself to page 1 at the LB (not that it rly matters since its corrupted) then a stoped playing it. It is just way to strong and not using DF anymore wich was one of my favourite skill is just boring. The TR is the best class in a 1on1, nobody beats it if skills/gear are at the same lvl. AND its the only class that can survive vs 2 or more enemys for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemys. Tell me ANY other class in the game that can do this on equal gear/skill lvl ofc.
That's right. But can survive vs 2 or more enemies for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemies, should be change for a good chance to even kill the enemies.
AND its the only class that can survive vs 2 or more enemys for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemys. Tell me ANY other class in the game that can do this on equal gear/skill lvl ofc.
Devoted Cleric built for Healing? Guardian Fighter in right hands? Once I saw Dragonborn Hunter Ranger with amount of buffs that couldn't fit in my screen. His regeneration ration was so hight that he could soak stacked SEs. But my opinion Rogue is about surviving versus several opponents. The problem however lies in a ability to slaughter these opponents in a process.
Devoted Cleric built for Healing? Guardian Fighter in right hands? Once I saw Dragonborn Hunter Ranger with amount of buffs that couldn't fit in my screen. His regeneration ration was so hight that he could soak stacked SEs. But my opinion Rogue is about surviving versus several opponents. The problem however lies in a ability to slaughter these opponents in a process.
As i said, equal geard/skilled one HR dies Superfast in a 1on2 a TR dont.
again a thread that really doesn´t have to come up
everybody knows ---> all trees are broken, it really doesn´t matter if:
1. I am onehittet or near death from one hit, despite having 10 billion tenacity and DR
2. i am perma-dazed (your insurence) to death, lol, lol and again lol- no class should have this power
3. or dazed smokebombed and after this two-hitted by ur broken encounters
get it? don´t try to discuss about things that are obviuos, it just makes it worse, especially if >80% of all players are pissed, ah sorry in PVP its only 60% cause of TR inflation (can´t understand why)
Devoted Cleric built for Healing? Guardian Fighter in right hands? Once I saw Dragonborn Hunter Ranger with amount of buffs that couldn't fit in my screen. His regeneration ration was so hight that he could soak stacked SEs. But my opinion Rogue is about surviving versus several opponents. The problem however lies in a ability to slaughter these opponents in a process.
all these builds can´t do same thing as TR can
devoted cleric f.e. 17k against two other damage classes 17 is dead, except non of these classes can stun, kick , cc ... imo every class has at least one skill to cc, so if these dudes are no nub player-->dead
Guardian fighter is weak except the 22-25k dudes i met, sure they are hard to beat when u meat these guys being 4-6k lower
Hunter maxxed is hard to get down, sure i met one 23k regeneration...puh impossible for me 17k and another guy 15k
we speek about same GS not about a player, "once i met.." in domination that ripped ur a.. cause he was 6k GS higher
Apparently many of you cannot read proficiently or at least didn't read the initial post. If you had you would realize why many of your comments have nothing at all to do with this thread and your vehement ire is misplaced here. This thread was about identifying the mystery high damage chain dazing perma stealth TR that the scoundrel often finds themselves accused of being -- when it is not the scoundrel at all. I know many of you feel frustration when fighting certain TR -- as a WK scoundrel I myself also find many of these situations futile at best -- but please understand what this thread was about and that this is not a "tr are not op" thread. Just stop, breathe, and read first is all I ask.
Because defenders are about survivability of... a party I guess? They defend other team members. Let's back for a second to initial D&D archetypes. Rogue is a flimsy sneaky character, who can bypass enemies. Warrior is about "Come at me, bro!" hack and slash stuff, and he protects Wizard that way, how dishes out massive AoE spells.
So, TR can't do defenders job, because in a very moment when he enters stealth all hell breaks loose on his party members, while GF can keeps mobs busy. HR may act as a defender, but he will be too busy with kiting mobs, so I doubt that he will keep all their agro on him for long.
Besides, my statement didn't imply that Rouge must survive by killing their opponents. As a Thief fan I believe that Rogue must act as a debuffer. He should run around in stealth and cripple things, instead of outDPSing GWFs.
Is this a wall of text by TR trying to excuse insanely OP class he plays and possibly most OP pvp class ever introduced into PvP across the last DECADE?
Comments
Sir... with all due respect that's basically a very old, (and very abandoned) pre-mod2 method of permastealthing which had a brief "moment of glory" when pandora reintroduced it to WKs, last year, a few months before mod5 announcement and preview...
I didn't take into account the increase in dodges would make the BnS-SS rotation still possible, so you've got me there I'll admit, but the way your rotations are barely fitting in simply makes any use of at-wills out of the question, nor any encounters.
The way I see this is working, my guess would be you simply run around the node like that doing nothing much, and then use encounters or attacks moments before the stealth bar expires, and then immediately restealth and just walk around waiting for attacks to recharge... and then the longer you do this the AP bar just automatically fills up since you're in combat... hence, soon ready for a nice BB spam to deal the real damage as well as recharge everything.
I'm not sure if you're serious as in bringing this up as a real combat build, which to me looks more of a specialized node-trolling build rather than an actual combat build. For one thing, if a Scoundrel is doing that, then he sure isn't going to be keeping anyone dazed and under pressure like how it upsets people like jarec.
Sir, I can understand why a node-troll build like this would work in premade level, by simply making the TR give up everything else to do nothing but survive as long as possible and bother people, and thus, contributing to winning according to domination rules... but it's sort of like watching a point-driven fighter in a professional boxing ring, who 'touches' the other guy in the right spot, and then clinches at the speed of light, and basically end up winning the fight through points, rather than a knockout or even a real fight.
I'm not sure you can convince any other TR players in this thread that is supposed to be a combat build which "fights and keeps people dazed all the time while remaining in perma". It sure doesn't have me convinced....
Thanks for the video, sir.
Although that video is a common knowledge among TR but its not about that..he is just merely proving TR could hold a node without fighting or revealing himself..i mean if i m a TR i could just buy a bot program and do this at a specific node to farm my glory..not much skill needed.
Not really, in order to accomplish this the TR must have a target -- a target in range of the node and not being evasive or reacting in any way other than to be a target for the TR to use SS on. If the target backs out the TR cannot accomplish this. If the target reacts the TR cannot accomplish this (unless the target is particularly inept and clumsy that is).
Which in case simply confirms that a "stand on spot to contest" mechanics were faulty from the start, sir. In a manner of speaking, such a method of 'contesting' was always possible with any perma-TRs long before mod5, and even in mod4 where the TRs were considered to be at their all-time-low, this method was still possible.
If that be the case, then I must humbly point-out that all the initial premises about this discussion simply falls apart. It becomes evident that it is hardly the mod5 changes/buffs to the TRs that are the problem with this specific line of reasoning which resulted in a node-trolling build, but rather a problem that always persisted with the TRs from the start. In other words, sir, the "OP" joocy is referring to has not much to do with mod5 TRs at all, but it has dangers of seriously misleading many people into thinking that somehow Scoundrels or Execs can permastealth like Sabos, and agressively fight and kill and contest nodes as one would expect of any TR build -- to the point that would make decent CW players like jarecsteph above so much angry.
It's adding more fuel to this fire of misconception, bias and prejudice against all TRs, sir, and I don't think its healthy for the community to be receiving more (intentional or no) misinformation.
It does matter that the TR you used is an Executioner. 20% faster base Stealth Regen was it
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
the fact is TR become OP in every path
in prev server later deflec sev already nerf to 50% and other nerf to come
which one TR ability will be nerf? Who knows just don't be surprice when the time come
just prepare your money for create next op class LOL
We've been through mod4. I'm sure we'll survive
To be fair, friend emilemo, the video friend joocy posted doesn't have much relevance to the SoD stealth regen since he was in stealth the entire time... but yes, the faster stealth meter regeneration does matter, in that the stealth regen does not halt for Execs due to SoD features. When this is combined with Tenacious Concealment + artifact offhand power, this means that whenever the Exec pops out of stealth, no amount of damage is going to stop him from going back to stealth because his stealth regen will not be stopped nor hacked away through damage.
I've actually been seeing a slow steady increase in Execs that do not use SS at all. These TRs have usually ITC/LB/SB setup, and after using LB, will use SB or ITC in combination with dodges, according to situation.. and basically survive the next moments until the 'unstoppable' stealth meter naturally refills.
while middle trs did struggle in mod 4, top trs were on the op side. There was a reason for the stealth change as it was way too strong and with red glyphs trs were doing way too much dmg... If i recall correct the only class that could compete with them was HR.
Btw regarding the video, I once killed 4 person (some were hurt although none was below %60 health) in a node using Smoke Bomb, Shadow Strike, Lashing Blade and Whirlwind of Blades in daily slot. I know it's not perma-stealth or whatever it is somewhat immune to damage. I started with WoB daily in stealth and since after using it, you are not removed from stealth and then I used smoke bomb, dazed and slow everyone in the node and used SS on one of them and used Lashing Blade on the person who had most health. Then used At-Wills and wait for SoD to kick in. Using this rotation (excluding daily even) on 1v1 is imminent death against other classes, no other way.
I don't use TR in PVP that much since honestly I don't like how PVP turned out to be in the game. But I have not seen any class that have the ability to do this kind of thing. You're fast, immune to damage, deal huge damages, have 4 dodges to escape from danger that you can use at whatever build you're using.
This is only my opinion and experience of course. You may still think that TRs are just fine and that's ok since I'll never see you in PVP
Who said its not possible I only need SS to be infinite perma my CD from LB is 12 sec and the rest below 9 seconds my stealth last 12 second or more if I do dodge roll. You just need 40 percent up recharge time no matter what paragon you have. I can even do 3 clones from BnS with KE + SP. and even POTB x3 is possible..
Frankly, as a TR you're the least qualified person to complain about that. Unless proven otherwise, the TR is permastealthed, perma-dazing, it deflects physical damage, magic damage, cc, he OS anything with any AtWill. The only point you have is, a TR can only kill us once per fight. So, it won't need all its permas. Your alleged sickness weighs nothing in front of the facts: watch the first page of russian leaderboard, realize the bare truth and then come back here for an apology.
Personally, I almost never encountered this issue. Maybe once, but I literally walked away in daze that time. I'm not into PvP much, but from what I've read in many PvP chat logs, main issues about TRs are their insane damage and dodge with ITC.
About permastealth thingy... Usually there is always GWF or DC on my team who know how to handle a troll on our home node. Our you can always use Path of Blades to mess up troll's routine. And as someone said permastealth trolling build doesn't do much damage since stealth loss fix in mod5.
Seems legit, ha. Anyway either I missed it or no one mentioned interesting Infiltrator Executioner build, when player uses BS, SS and ITC to run around and build AP fast, then oneshots with Shocking Execution.
Also, since we are TRs and know things inside out, maybe we can discuss actual countermeasures against it, not for others TRs, but for every class?
I'm afraid your barking up the wrong tree.
Nobody in this thread so far has yet to claim LB is not OP, nor does it not need to be nerfed. In a separate thread I've even specifically listed down First Strike as needing a nerf, as well as suggested the entire "extra piercing damage" mechanic of SoD be redesigned so it doesn't simply add that damage.
Please do not put words in our mouth, those which we have not even spoken. Many times I have sincerely requested people apt for reasonable discussion, instead of continue with these blanket statements and assumptions that all TRs are out to defend every bit of nooks and crannies in the current incarnation of OPness that is the TR.
I've explained this in another thread as well, but basically when out of stealth it requires an active crit, or "hit-from-behind" for CS to proc, in which case the current trend of TR builds do not really care much for DEX, hence crit stats are on general much lower than what it used to be ages ago. Basically, you are assuming Scoundrels will be able to proc CS always when they want, except that is not true, and since Scoundrels do not have any aids/utilities to help restealth, this means Scoundrels don't rely on CS mechanics in the cases they cannot control it.
There are, of course, situations where you know CS will proc for sure -- for example, in my case I make it a habit of throwing a shot of CoS just before starting the main attack, which will ensure my "big one" will land square and the target won't be able to dodge it. (ex. CoS -> Dazing Strike) But once I am out of stealth due to that attack, from that point on I have no way of knowing whether it will proc exactly after 5 seconds, or maybe 7, or a bad streak of luck leading to 8 or more seconds since the initial activation.
Chance based mechanics are like that, hence since missing out on the timing to go back into stealth means death, no Scoundrel player just builds up his defense strategy upon luck. Rather, we just simply throw SS right before the initial 4 seconds of daze finishes, instead of making a wager that the daze will extend thanks to a great stroke of luck that brings your CS out at the time you need.
I hope you can take my word on this one, because I have no reason to lie about it. That's how us Scoundrels really operate.
Maybe I wasn't clear at the first time.
To explain a bit further, MI Scoundrels that are really into aggressive fighting (unlike the mediocre Scoundrels who just spam Smokebomb) take on skill sets that are better suited to keep the initiative going. Generally, in this case the loadout is ITC/DS/SS.
Scoundrels need to make best use of the timing that the enemy is dazed, because if you miss this timing, then the damage is just pathetic to say the least. So for example if a MI Scoundrel opens up with dazing strike, then he uses that opportunity to attack. Before the daze is over he will throw SS to restealth. In this process, basically the duration of daze is only as long as DS.
Now, why I have mentioned SS, is that in theory, the MI Scoundrel can throw in a few attacks at stealth, and then use SS to replenish the lost stealth meter, and at the same time daze the target for 4+2 seconds. A few more attacks, and just as this initial daze is about to land, he can use DS, so this will result in a chained daze that runs for 10 seconds total.
But what then? After the straight 8 seconds are past, your SS is on cooldown, with about 9~10 more secs to go. Your ITC lasts for only 5, so the rest of 4~5 seconds need to be passed with dodges. You may pass through this alive once, but as the rotations progress the timing to fit ITC and SS gets more difficult, and your attacks are slowed out, requiring more and more time to be spent in stealth without attacking -- which in practice, usually gives the enemy time to recover, or escape.
That's why in actual practice MI Scoundrels don't use SS in that manner. We Scoundrels tend to save SS to be used when out of stealth, not as a daze-extension/stealth refill from within stealth.
This part is different with Sabos, as they have it pretty easy, and due to the process as explained in the opening post, not only can they more easily chain dazes, but through the entire process they remain under stealth.
...hope this explanation wasn't too difficult to understand.
You probably did not know that I also requested that dazes respect immunities, tenacity, and CC resistances, so I'll just assume comments like these were an honest mistake. I don't assume that you have any 'ulterior motive' or some wacky GWF vendetta agenda just because you are a GWF player. Would it be too much to ask you have the common courtesy to treat other TRs as the same?
Did I say "fine" somewhere? I don't see it if I've ever said any of the TRs were "fine".
Perhaps discussions and debates tend to become unpleasant and often riled with emotion because people are making up things which the other side not said, nor even implied. Please, let's not do that.
(ps) I can't use the word 'sir' anymore! I've been warned by the moderators that it is a bad thing
Just for your information, three weeks ago before I decided to cut down my PVP playing time to only 10% because developers didn’t made any change yet, I was at the bottom of page 2 PVP board (only one CW was in front of me and his killed ratio was less than mine and I was without a guild, I was in third place for character without a guild, the only ones in front of me were 2 TR),
The fact is that it’s not fun to fight against TR.
Daze and Impossible to catch are the major problem cut them down and I really think we will be near balance. The rest could be adjusted but those are the main problem.
A large majority of TR use daze effect to start there chain of attack and when daze is fading out use Impossible to catch and then go stealth or daze again if they can. So from an opponent point of view you’re always trying to evade being daze or move away from DPS while Impossible to catch is on. It could be a fun challenge if it was not that the time is too long and the frequencies to short.
And don’t pretend that I hate or I’m not constructive, I love playing against all Neverwinter characters but at the moment TR have some huge balance issues and my constructive way is to point out what I think are the major part of it.
I got myself to page 1 at the LB (not that it rly matters since its corrupted) then a stoped playing it. It is just way to strong and not using DF anymore wich was one of my favourite skill is just boring. The TR is the best class in a 1on1, nobody beats it if skills/gear are at the same lvl. AND its the only class that can survive vs 2 or more enemys for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemys. Tell me ANY other class in the game that can do this on equal gear/skill lvl ofc.
That's right. But can survive vs 2 or more enemies for the longest time even with a slightly chance to even kill the enemies, should be change for a good chance to even kill the enemies.
Devoted Cleric built for Healing? Guardian Fighter in right hands? Once I saw Dragonborn Hunter Ranger with amount of buffs that couldn't fit in my screen. His regeneration ration was so hight that he could soak stacked SEs. But my opinion Rogue is about surviving versus several opponents. The problem however lies in a ability to slaughter these opponents in a process.
wonder why do they even bother with defenders, when we have strikers that are better at doing their jobs (hr/tr)....
Thought I should mention SOMETHING to get people off this subject.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Will a Lady Gaga'esk mental image be enough? I doubt it
As i said, equal geard/skilled one HR dies Superfast in a 1on2 a TR dont.
everybody knows ---> all trees are broken, it really doesn´t matter if:
1. I am onehittet or near death from one hit, despite having 10 billion tenacity and DR
2. i am perma-dazed (your insurence) to death, lol, lol and again lol- no class should have this power
3. or dazed smokebombed and after this two-hitted by ur broken encounters
get it? don´t try to discuss about things that are obviuos, it just makes it worse, especially if >80% of all players are pissed, ah sorry in PVP its only 60% cause of TR inflation (can´t understand why)
devoted cleric f.e. 17k against two other damage classes 17 is dead, except non of these classes can stun, kick , cc ... imo every class has at least one skill to cc, so if these dudes are no nub player-->dead
Guardian fighter is weak except the 22-25k dudes i met, sure they are hard to beat when u meat these guys being 4-6k lower
Hunter maxxed is hard to get down, sure i met one 23k regeneration...puh impossible for me 17k and another guy 15k
we speek about same GS not about a player, "once i met.." in domination that ripped ur a.. cause he was 6k GS higher
So, TR can't do defenders job, because in a very moment when he enters stealth all hell breaks loose on his party members, while GF can keeps mobs busy. HR may act as a defender, but he will be too busy with kiting mobs, so I doubt that he will keep all their agro on him for long.
Besides, my statement didn't imply that Rouge must survive by killing their opponents. As a Thief fan I believe that Rogue must act as a debuffer. He should run around in stealth and cripple things, instead of outDPSing GWFs.
Haven't read it, but I'm pretty sure it is.