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Class balance in PvP has become utterly disgusting and skilless.
tsokushin
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
This honestly needs to be addressed ASAP if PvP whatsoever is to progress in any shape or form. It has nothing resembling the balance at the start of the game and has evolved into an abomination of who can use the cheesiest, skilless, and ungraceful build possible.
First and foremost, NO POTIONS WHATSOEVER IN PVP. It destroys any credibility of discovering true skill in this game.
GWF:
Intimidation: Lacking any grace or skill in its usage, this literally allows a GWF to output the single target burst of a CW in a long range aoe. If this were merely single target, that damage would be fine as it would involve the GWF having to use skill and maneuvering to get into proper range. Even worse, these high damage abilities are within the *tank* tree of the GWF.
Come and get it literally has no effective windup leaving little chance of skillfully dodging it, rather spamming dodges and hoping that the GWF uses it and misses. Daring Shout is the same in this vein as it's purely instant damage with no telegraphing and no chance of a skillful dodge. Either these abilities need a longer, telegraphed windup, or the damage needs to be flat out further toned down, with the threat generation modifier tweaked to retain PVE effectiveness.
I have nothing against the standard Takedown, Frontline/flourish, IBS builds, however. Those are extremely balanced in terms of gameplay.
CW
Storm Spell is absolutely disgusting in that it requires absolutely 0 skill and yet it adds extremely large amounts of burst damage. Long story short one of the following needs to happen: this thing needs to never EVER crit, it needs a reduced proc rate, or possibly even both.
If this causes long term problems in PvE, then they can rebuff Shard of the Avalanche (not to the previous ridiculous levels, but reasonable), which I have no problems with considering the finesse required to effectively use it in PvP.
And, finally, ALL of CW abilities need to be affected by Control Resist. As it stands, only the temporary freeze from Icy Rays is affected. This would allow builds emphasizing control resist to actually be effective. Edit: I have been told that this is due to CW's ignoring 66% of all tenacity. This should definitely be looked at.
Speaking of Icy Rays, they are unable to be dodged whatsoever. This needs to be fixed.
Another point to address is the bunnyhop Ray of Frost spam, easily addressed by placing a .15 sec timer into casting it before chill/damage ticks are triggered to prevent this.
Finally, Shield on Tab is way too powerful in its current form. It needs one of the following:
1.the ability to be completely broken (removed) from the wizard after too many hits, placing it on cooldown, and requiring a recast. The casting time can be sped up to compensate.
2. Rescaling the starting damage resistance to 20% and ending at 10% and subsequently vastly increasing the knockback distance and radius on canceling the shield (giving the CW a viable reason to cancel the shield)
3. Giving the shield a duration, and not permanent.
4. Flat out lengthen the refresh duration to 15 seconds instead of 6, or remove it completely.
DC
Gift of Faith needs an internal cooldown after being used before it's able to be reapplied. This is the long and the short of it. It allows a DC to be exceedingly tanky beyond any reasonable measure. 15 seconds after its usage before reapplication is reasonable.
Also, Fire of the Gods definitely needs toning down. The duration needs to be reduced to 10 seconds. The lingering DoT's kill more people from a random proc than relying on actual, aimed/timed direct damage.
Furthermore, Empowered Astral Shield % needs to be reduced to 2%(possibly 1.5%) rather than 3%, so that it's 6% and not 9% at max rank. Some DC's are capable of reaching upwards of 50k HP, and blocking nearly 5k of Damage per hit is getting to be ridiculous.
Lastly, Sunburst needs to respect CC immunity.
GF
The Burst damage capable on a pure tank class is Overpowered. It's not exactly balanced to have the only class capable of near perfect CC resist to be able to 1 rotation people. The only functional fix for this would be to lower the threshold for bonus anvil damage from 40% to 30%. This would leave the CC and utilities of a GF largely intact, but force Damage GF's to stay an extra rotation in terms of killing somebody solo. Anybody if caught, should still suffer the lockdown they provide as they are the least mobile of classes, but not die within a single rotation. The Prones also need to be subject to control resist.
HR
Combat HR's have, for the most part, become balanced except for piercing damage. The piercing damage itself needs to be reworked and instead become extra bonus damage instead of something that ignores all mitigation.
New Trapper HR's need to be toned down immensely. They're capable of frontloading more burst than a CW that lingers along with having extreme amounts of mobility with profound set. I've literally had Thorned Roots tick for 6.8k at a time. First and foremost, these root are currently undodgeable. This needs to be fixed asap. The weapon damage from this feat to be toned down to 150% of weapon damage rather than 200%.
For all HR's Disrupting Shot needs a bit of a slowdown in the missile speed, as they already have numerous auto-acquire target abilities in their lineup. This would allow more timing of dodges on the part of their enemy and more careful timing on the part of the HR. Also, Disrupting Shot needs to obey the CC immunity on the GF block.
Other than this, the class is, for the most part, balanced, taking some skill to effectively work properly.
TR
THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH THIS THAT IT NEEDS A SEPARATE POST TO ADDRESS.
First and foremost, NO POTIONS WHATSOEVER IN PVP. It destroys any credibility of discovering true skill in this game.
GWF:
Intimidation: Lacking any grace or skill in its usage, this literally allows a GWF to output the single target burst of a CW in a long range aoe. If this were merely single target, that damage would be fine as it would involve the GWF having to use skill and maneuvering to get into proper range. Even worse, these high damage abilities are within the *tank* tree of the GWF.
Come and get it literally has no effective windup leaving little chance of skillfully dodging it, rather spamming dodges and hoping that the GWF uses it and misses. Daring Shout is the same in this vein as it's purely instant damage with no telegraphing and no chance of a skillful dodge. Either these abilities need a longer, telegraphed windup, or the damage needs to be flat out further toned down, with the threat generation modifier tweaked to retain PVE effectiveness.
I have nothing against the standard Takedown, Frontline/flourish, IBS builds, however. Those are extremely balanced in terms of gameplay.
CW
Storm Spell is absolutely disgusting in that it requires absolutely 0 skill and yet it adds extremely large amounts of burst damage. Long story short one of the following needs to happen: this thing needs to never EVER crit, it needs a reduced proc rate, or possibly even both.
If this causes long term problems in PvE, then they can rebuff Shard of the Avalanche (not to the previous ridiculous levels, but reasonable), which I have no problems with considering the finesse required to effectively use it in PvP.
And, finally, ALL of CW abilities need to be affected by Control Resist. As it stands, only the temporary freeze from Icy Rays is affected. This would allow builds emphasizing control resist to actually be effective. Edit: I have been told that this is due to CW's ignoring 66% of all tenacity. This should definitely be looked at.
Speaking of Icy Rays, they are unable to be dodged whatsoever. This needs to be fixed.
Another point to address is the bunnyhop Ray of Frost spam, easily addressed by placing a .15 sec timer into casting it before chill/damage ticks are triggered to prevent this.
Finally, Shield on Tab is way too powerful in its current form. It needs one of the following:
1.the ability to be completely broken (removed) from the wizard after too many hits, placing it on cooldown, and requiring a recast. The casting time can be sped up to compensate.
2. Rescaling the starting damage resistance to 20% and ending at 10% and subsequently vastly increasing the knockback distance and radius on canceling the shield (giving the CW a viable reason to cancel the shield)
3. Giving the shield a duration, and not permanent.
4. Flat out lengthen the refresh duration to 15 seconds instead of 6, or remove it completely.
DC
Gift of Faith needs an internal cooldown after being used before it's able to be reapplied. This is the long and the short of it. It allows a DC to be exceedingly tanky beyond any reasonable measure. 15 seconds after its usage before reapplication is reasonable.
Also, Fire of the Gods definitely needs toning down. The duration needs to be reduced to 10 seconds. The lingering DoT's kill more people from a random proc than relying on actual, aimed/timed direct damage.
Furthermore, Empowered Astral Shield % needs to be reduced to 2%(possibly 1.5%) rather than 3%, so that it's 6% and not 9% at max rank. Some DC's are capable of reaching upwards of 50k HP, and blocking nearly 5k of Damage per hit is getting to be ridiculous.
Lastly, Sunburst needs to respect CC immunity.
GF
The Burst damage capable on a pure tank class is Overpowered. It's not exactly balanced to have the only class capable of near perfect CC resist to be able to 1 rotation people. The only functional fix for this would be to lower the threshold for bonus anvil damage from 40% to 30%. This would leave the CC and utilities of a GF largely intact, but force Damage GF's to stay an extra rotation in terms of killing somebody solo. Anybody if caught, should still suffer the lockdown they provide as they are the least mobile of classes, but not die within a single rotation. The Prones also need to be subject to control resist.
HR
Combat HR's have, for the most part, become balanced except for piercing damage. The piercing damage itself needs to be reworked and instead become extra bonus damage instead of something that ignores all mitigation.
New Trapper HR's need to be toned down immensely. They're capable of frontloading more burst than a CW that lingers along with having extreme amounts of mobility with profound set. I've literally had Thorned Roots tick for 6.8k at a time. First and foremost, these root are currently undodgeable. This needs to be fixed asap. The weapon damage from this feat to be toned down to 150% of weapon damage rather than 200%.
For all HR's Disrupting Shot needs a bit of a slowdown in the missile speed, as they already have numerous auto-acquire target abilities in their lineup. This would allow more timing of dodges on the part of their enemy and more careful timing on the part of the HR. Also, Disrupting Shot needs to obey the CC immunity on the GF block.
Other than this, the class is, for the most part, balanced, taking some skill to effectively work properly.
TR
THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH THIS THAT IT NEEDS A SEPARATE POST TO ADDRESS.
Post edited by tsokushin on
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Comments
The TR itself is the worst offender in every case of this game. It has both tools of extreme survivability and extreme damage. It has these at 0 cost.
Base Mechanics
100% crit chance in stealth should stay. The TR should indeed be a glass cannon, but the glass portion needs to be worked in.
The 2 second reveal needs to be increased to 4 seconds for the target under attack, as dodge frame immunities are still largely occupying the entirety of the reveal duration. This will force TR's to burn more stamina in a single approach, similar to what other classes must do. Given the current damage capabilities, this will make it balanced for the enemy of the TR instead of a simple attack->reveal->dodge out the reveal->ITC if needed->restealth if needed->repeat build.
Abilities
Impossible to Catch needs to have the CC immunity completely removed. It can retain the CC break, and the 100% deflect and the damage resist bonus, but the CC immunity has to go. This will make it so that the TR will actually have to put in some effort into his kills. The TR still has the tools of dazes/stealth to retain his survivability, and deflection already lowers CC durations, but the TR in question should still be interrupted momentarily by a hard CC. This will also change ITC into a more reactive ability as the TR won't be able to skillessly spam encounters/atwills due to the CC protection from it. It will force the TR to actually use this as a limited escape, or something to buy minor time to eliminate a target. The issue with current TR's is a combination of dodge immunity frames, Impossible to catch 100% CC immunity, and a mere 2 second reveal. This addresses the problems of 1v1 survivability.
Gloaming Cut needs to have its damage lowered by a good 10%. This is due to the fact that Sneaky Stabber Feat allows it to restore stealth which extends allows the TR to remain hidden against enemy players other than the intended target, and increase the duration of 100% criticals via stealth.
First Strike needs to be reworked into a flat 15% bonus damage in combat for 4-6 seconds into combat varying on the points placed into the mechanic. The current bonus of 60% for the first strike often lead to the 1 shot ability of the class, which requires no skill whatsoever considering stealth.
Shadow Strike from stealth should either no longer daze, or have a cast time/telegraphed sound for dodging. In the event it does not daze, it should instead remove 15-20% of stamina from the target. This new mechanic would allow for TR to both refresh stealth and limit mobility of the target, yet the target still can counter, as opposed to the current mode where a TR can simply walk up unseen the entire time and daze without any counters whatsoever.
Lashing Blade should lose the 50% crit severity flat out. It needs one of the following:
1) Simply 20% Crit Severity
2)additional damage in the form of a non-critting bleed
3) remove 15% of stamina from the target.
This makes it less bursty and out of 1 shot territory, but also either sustains damage with a bleed or opens up a target to follow up attacks by removing some dodges.
Shocking Execution is extremely broken and simply needs to obey all forms of tenacity. Tolkeinbuff had a very good suggestion in that it should simply strike with 100% armor penetration, which means it can be deflected and obeys tenacity, rather than this abomination walking around at this time.
Feats:
Sabateur
Knife's Edge needs to be fixed with respect to Bloodbath, as this currently causes too much survivability for the TR in addition to high damage. This is best done with simply allowing it to grant its benefit on daily use, instead of when a daily lands.
Sneaky Stabber should be scaled up to 15% restore considering the proposed nerf to gloaming. This means that the TR will be able to land more criticals, but with the increased stealth reveal, remains a glass cannon.
Shadowy Opportunity needs to be reworked to no longer be piercing damage.
Scoundrel
Concussive Strikes: The time between reapplication needs to be 10 seconds.
Mocking Gesture should be increased to 15% deflect chance as Scoundrels are less bursty and damaging than the other trees.
The tree itself is solid, but double check to ensure that daze effects are indeed affected by control resistance. I don't think that it is, which is the cause of most complaints. That's the only fix it needs, beyond that it's balanced for the most part.
Source: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?820521-So-when-is-DAZE-getting-fixed
Executioner
Last Moments the bonus damage health threshold needs to be toned down to 55%-60%. This is due to interactions with Shadowborn and Exposed Weakness causing too much damage.
Shadowborn: The bonus power needs to be reworked to 6/12/18/24/30% bonus power for 6 seconds upon entering stealth. Again, this is to eliminate skilless 1 shot builds. The duration may seem long, but taking into account the removal of CC immunity from ITC and an increased reveal window, the TR will have the opening due to stealth, and may have to spend the remainder of this time either attempting to CC or dodging.
Shadow of Demise: First, fix the doublestacking bug. Secondly, should not be piercing damage.
It's been ages since good players starter complaining about the gameplay and combat system going to hell with DPS being moved progressively to grossly op easy mode stuff.
Aiming, timing your mo es...is a thing of the past.
No need for TR post. I can help you there:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-tIELFqeSKxeHnWdEC4g70BEHtTzPDPm&v=Lu8X-bll7aQ
You have not met proper destroyer GWF. They can ruin things when built properly.
Consider this, build a destroyer GWF tanky, and the feats can make up a good deal of the damage you're capable of.
Only if they get to full stacks, which means that they have to be half dead first and you have to stand still and let them wail on you. GWF base damage is some of the worst in the game. Their tankiness is surpassed by a cw with tabbed shield in some cases, even SW's can get more DR with full DT buff stacks for mitigating spike damage in pve. So you have a class with low damage, low dr, and requires a substantial windup to be able to burst damage. That is not a good place for a class that should be a tanky striker with zero ranged damage ability.
I've met destroyer GWFs lately, who hit me 15k critical Takedown. I think that you have to be very careful in buffing GWFs. I'd better see a rework, like DC and TR one.
Which I have addressed in the first post.
Give it a shot.
That's what I was talking about with stacks. Destroyers purpose. I used to main a gwf till mod4 gutted it and then I went to SW.
"Gift of Faith needs an internal cooldown after being used before it's able to be reapplied. This is the long and the short of it. It allows a DC to be exceedingly tanky beyond any reasonable measure. 15-30 seconds after its usage before reapplication is reasonable."
If ICD is implemented, i will like to disable the ability to store healing during the ICD or else a Righteous DPS DC without Faithful capstone can heal better than a dedicated healer. However ppl keep complaining abt the immortal DC and his teammates without realising the opponent has 1 DPS less and propose no real threat to their team. When i go Faithful i am not immortal, CW's cc, TR's burst kill me. Even SW's dps is enough to kill me in a split second with around 17k gs. You have to admit if you can dish out a good sum of dps, the cleric should have equal ability to heal back the exact amount if he turn his dps into hps.
"Also, Fire of the Gods definitely needs toning down. The duration needs to be reduced to 7 seconds. The lingering DoT's kill more people from a random proc than relying on actual, aimed/timed direct damage."
People said DC should not outdps DPS classes but i beg to disagree. When a class giving up cc and his healing ability to deal heavy AoE damage, his damage should be respectable. The problem now is combining with all righteous feats a DC can have 70% increase in DPS excluding all CFs and items. This also makes FotG a very pain DoT to the other classes without Cleanse. IIRC other classes also have a lot of serious DoT that kill me even after i kill them. However, if this makes most of the community angry, toning it down a few secs is ok for me. (even it is a T4 paragon feat)
"Furthermore, Empowered Astral Shield % needs to be reduced to 2%(possibly 1.5%) rather than 3%, so that it's 6% and not 9% at max rank. Some DC's are capable of reaching upwards of 50k HP, and blocking nearly 5k of Damage per hit is getting to be ridiculous."
If you pvp with a DC you will know how hard it is for you to cast some at will to build up divinity then cast 3 pip of divinity before you are able to cast EAS. In order to do the OP stuffs a DC has to: 1. Cast at will for 3x pip while cc-ed heavily 2. Cast 3x D.Encounter while cc-ed heavily 3. Use our longest cd encounter (base cd 18 sec) 4. No smart guy knock you out of circle. In the meantime, our at wills like BoB and ASeal is extremely slow and will be disrupted easily so we get no divinity. For those 50k HP BIS DC you said, they are already maxed and i doubt there are how many of them in this game. I think 40k+hp is pretty well geared but 50k+hp i need to pray them, they are GOD!!!
You talk due to personal experience or...?
The fact you met a destro in PvP and it looked strong to you, might very well mean that you are weaker. Not that the build is anywhere balanced for PvP.
Cause imho it is not.
Unless you get full DP stacks, you deal less damage than TR, HR, CW, SW, DPS DC.
Even if you gear it to be tanky with full PBI set, stack HP, stack deflection, you are still squishy against all the piercing damage and high DPS burst flying around. So you need to kill fast. And you really can't cause you have to build up stacks of capstone vs dodging and moving enemies, wasting time.
You can make it viable the way i made my instigator viable but you are underpowered compared to BiS builds like intimidation sentinels and other classes' PvP builds. And whenever you meet one, you realize the gap that there is currently between a destroyer in PvP and the BiS intimidation build.
Or a insti build and a intimidation build.
Now, destroyer in its core mechanics is aimed at PvE. If you have a bit of in-depth knowledge of the class, you know it. Skilled players like Squishy or other skilled GWF can gear it up enough and use it well enough to make it viable in PvP but imho it's too slow at building up damage and no matter how much you gear it up, it does not have enough tools to survive long enough vs CWs or TRs or HRs of the same gear level.
For example, even going unstoppable often, the 30% DR is quite useless in PvP compared to 80% from Aegis. Your base damage is not that high without stacks. If you use PF to build the 10 stacks faster you allow CWs and SWs to evade more.
Now if even intimidation sentinels get burnt down quite fast by CWs at 45k-50k Hp and rely on their buffed unstoppable to tank that bit more to kill the enemy with intimidation, i don't think a destroyer will last that long to build his stacks.
PvP nowadays is made by fast fights and high DPS burst. Destro is made for PvE. Each and every mechanic is perfect for PvE and struggles to find utility in current PvP. I explained it also in a Insti vs Destro thread in the barracks.
Conqueror is a BURST dps spec. We sacrifice tons of defense aswell as utility in order to dish out damage. Any other spec is "not so great" btw (for the mere fact they cannot deal any damage). I really don't want to give you the l2p phrase, but you seem to not even understand, that every class can be tanky OR dps oriented. AoD at 45% hp, is MY suggestion. It used to be at 30% i suggested it to be higher and it got implemented, which was needed. Do you even play a GF?
Know what you're talking about, before actually making these far fetched - assumptions.
Thank you.
Clerics should not heal as much to themselves as dpsers do damage, have you fogot they get 70% heal boost on other chars - so in team fight they are more than a dpesr could ever be.
So a complaint that every class is OP in some respect one way or another is not "balance"? It appears to me, more or less, like the OP is describing balance; if every class is OP in one way or another against all the other classes then that is "balance" the way I see it.
Yes I am being the Devil's Advocate here, but I also am genuinely seeing it this way. I know I must be misunderstanding the OP's intent here, but it seems to me the the only way to "balance" all the classes against each other the way the OP wants it is if every class did the exact same amount of damage in the exact same way against each other to create what would be a stalemate of sorts. (I know: this is an oversimplification, but you get my point.)
The way I see it is this: If every class receives a complaint that it is overpowered then that is balance. Anything more specific (balance-wise) is near impossible because of the ridiculous number of wild variables involved, not the least of which is the fact that human players are at the controls. One may as well try to plan events by predicting next months weather right down to wind speed and direction, to which I say good luck with that.
I've no intention of debunking the OP or anyone else's opinion about class "balance" - and surely the OP does have many good points.
I'm just saying that rather than people complaining about class "OP-ness" when talking about balance, perhaps it would be better to clearly and specifically describe what class balance would actually look like for each class. No one has ever actually described what this balance would be. Rather, they just complain about this class needs nerfing here and that class needs nerfing there. What exactly is the end result supposed to actually look like? That is my question.
But I've never seen a "class balance" post of that sort. Who will be the first?
First of all I do not think you ever played a GF, because you do not feel the struggle.
Let me explain how burst dmg works:
Hard to land, long cooldowns, in exchange hits hard. High risk high reward.
Also we have to stack offensive stats instead of defensive ones with our gear.
Tank GF imo is a paper, while DPS GF is a wet paper, you can tear each of them without any effort but at least one of them can fight back.
Nearly perfect CC resist:
You can see where is the emphasis, the skill should give you perfect CC resist, instead everything goes trough it (dazing strike, cw push, sunburst etc.), so it is really far from perfect to be honest and it is a daily power not an encounter like ITC.
Anvil of doom:
Probably the hardest to land skill in the game, it's range is so short, you have to be in the belly of the enemy and you know it is not hard to maintain a bigger distance, than that, this can be only used well if someone else is cc locking the target and you pretty much won't kill any1 if u do not crit with it when the target is under 40% + can be deflected while it is a finisher skill like SE (well but that is more like a 100-0 finisher than a 40-0 finisher haha).
BTW if you are not naked or using at least a mixed build you can see why GFs are not OP.
Prones already are near useless state:
Since every class stacks defelction for PVP, prone times are too low even if I have +0.8sec from feats, it is like i can interrupt wiht them but nothing more.
Even SW-s who have been titlet the ultimate useless class can give us hard times, especially the ones with great regen/lifesteal (idk which, but when I see an SW in a game I die 5 times faster in teamfights).
And DC's still can easily absorb our attacks with their shield, basically we still hit less with our encounters with other classes with their At-Wills.
1 year ago the game was not balanced but still it was a battle of aiming and timing and dodging while now the mechanics changed in a way where aiming, timing and dodging became less and less important while gear, power creep and mashing buttons became more important.
Now you have DPS through AoE encounters centered on the toon, passive procs, passive dots, passive piercing damage, one-shotting moves and so on.
The nice part of NWO is supposed to be the combat where 2 players battle each others aiming their moves, timing them and then trying to dodge. Which is partially achieved with skills, experience and some luck.
That is fun.
Right now, BiS builds are not like that but instead just gear piled up and put together with easy-cheesy builds/moves.
IDK why at some point the devs decided it was a good idea to move gameplay from action and skills to lazy passive stuff and button mashing.
But they did and as the title says, the result is utterly disgusting and skill-less.
Yes i know it has been a lot of stalemating before in the game and its not fun when matches take 2 hours for that reason.
But this guy have some insight, now its easy peasy mode, hit enemy with at-will and let the proccs do the job.
No need for timing encounter, atwills and daily. Now just daily, daily, daily, spam at-will and encounter, and hope enemy die before u do.
GET RID of piercing dmg and silly no skill what so ever stupid PROCCS! A buddy CW of mine hit me with 1 RoF and dubble procced stormspell on me it did 17K dmg... I mean does ppl think this rly is fun?
Firstly anyone who is defending the current pvp TR has no ambition for a balanced pvp game... TR is more broken than any toon in any mod.. in terms of pvp... It can be the most tanky toon.. with the highest dps...has very serious cc... with stealth... its insane the position TR is in for pvp right now... But whatever changes the TR receives it needs to be kept viable in pve... But yeah right now its insane
Now lets get to my passion the GWF...
For pve both intimidation and destroyer build can be very very viable.. BUT... the gwf needs to be very highly specced in gear to achieve this.. at mid and lower gear levels the class sucks.. plain and simple.. when you compare to other classes it sucks.. problem being that its super squishy and offers NOTHING beneficial to a party.. all this class can offer is dps.. that's it.. and it needs to be close to BiS to achieve this..
Now lets get to pvp... Intimidation sentinel is pvp is still viable.. again the toon needs to be AT LEAST 20k GS at an absolute MINIMUM and actually closer to 23-25K... now this build right now in pvp offers good dps.. but its still very squishy.. the only time this build will seem to be OP is when the GWF has a DC (with their OP heals/buffs/debuffs) sitting on it's back.. Without the DC even a highly geared sentinel GWF will die VERY VERY fast.
Now this is the only viable pvp build.. anyone that says a destroyer build is good for pvp has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.. they are either pugging against very bad players or pugging against very bad players. Destroyer build is not viable in pvp whatsoever.. at all.. the cap stone has no benefit.. against even half decent players a destroyer gwf will be dead before they can do anything... this is the absolute truth..
Unstoppable needs a complete rework at this point.. in pve I play an intimidation build.. and unstoppable is completely worthless...it has almost no impact on pve gameplay at all.. if im going to be 1 shotted.. it doesn't matter if im unstoppable or not... im still going to get 1 shotted.. In pvp its also pretty bad.. very rarely does it help.. unstoppable right now it by far the worst class feature in the game...
but i am here, tellin you that destroyer isn't that pitiful and it can beat CW (but not the DPS CW with 40k hp + 10k power) , can beat the trapper HRs but not the Selfhealing HR , cannot beat the TR because TRs doesn't have any openings to any gwf attacks, cannot kill the DPS DC because you get burned in 5-10 sec, it is kinds balanced against a conqurer GF, and there is a slight chance to kill the protector gf. but even thou it depends.. it's not OP destro, but it's not quite viable.
things that would do:
fix intimidation so it will work on 350% weapon damage instead of 35% power
CW should do deal less damage, Trapper Should do less damage, Combat should heal less, TR should be nerfed on surviability to 0, DPS DC should deal less damage, or he should have AS cooldown increased. but i dk ..
That's why I said they need a rework. Giving to GWFs a better CC, and those 2 out of 50 will become 40 out of 50. GWFs need their base damage buffed, all stacks replaced with passive damage and CC autoprocs that scale off the weapon damage. This is how they balance classes nowadays, amirite?
dangerous - healing not affected by tenacity we will end up in stalemates every game.
i really like when games used to last 30m +
30-60 mins i dont mind but with such increase in tenacity there will be 2 dcs in a team + self 2 healing hrs and and invisible rogue - noone would score points ever.