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Clerics not using Hallowed Ground in Tiamat
clericalist
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
I have had 3 different Tiamats that failed by missing the last Dragon head by a few seconds, in all of those I noticed that clerics(s) were not using Hallowed Ground but instead Hammer of Fate. I was reasoning, ranting, begging for them to change to Hallowed Ground, they never did. I am posting this as a sanity check, was I wrong and did I miss something or were they simply incompetent ?
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WTB Class Reroll please
The party benefit is minuscule to the cost of casting it. Not no, but hellno. You can all say goodbye to Hallowed Ground from experienced DCs. And it has nothing to do with "thirsty for DPS" at all. It has everything to do with way too much costs to use it.
It's like adding 30 seconds to all your encounter cool-downs as soon as you use (name your class' BiS Encounter). Would you use it?
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Hammer of fate is way more useless - does less damage than Flame Strike (even single target) and freezes you in place longer.
With proper timing of Sigil - you have have HG ready for 2 heads. Which is infinitely better for everyone than some 30-50k damage.
Another good option is Anointed Army - again, if properly timed.
Emphasis mine; off-topic.
This is the second time I've read that HoF does less damage than FS (even to individual targets) in a day. I'm admittedly new to using a late-game DC - only been L60 with this character for 3 weeks now - but my belief was that to single targets HoF is superior, in terms of damage at least.
At my stat levels, assuming no crit, Flame strike hits the central target twice for 8-10k per hit (so 16-20k). All other targets are struck once.
HoF hits a target 3 times for 10-12k each (or 30-36k). I could be misreading the damage as I haven't tested it, my numbers are just from regular use.
Does the "slam" portion of the flame strike do additional damage?
What am I missing?
On topic; I also don't care for HG's AP generation stunting. While I do use it vs Valindra out of necessity due to low stats at this point, I doubt I'll continue to do so once my stats are higher.
It's 35% more damage to the entire party for 15s (30s if you use the sigil); that ends in MUCH more damage than 2 Hammers of Faith or Flame Strikes. Let's say each person in your party deals 400k damage every 15 seconds; that's 2,000,000. With Hallowed Ground, your group will deal 2,700,000.
Now imagine the amount in the Tiamat battle, where ~20 people stack for the zerg tactic.
If it didn't work this way and you could get AP while it was up, we'd get 100% uptime with a daily buff.
Failure in Tiamat is always due to a myriad of reasons, while using HG could have provided that extra DPS boost, it's probably not the sole reason.
It could jolly well be due to people staying dead while hoping for revival, thus losing the DPS they could have provided if they released early, people staying AFK at campfire, game lag, etc.
That said, I'm a DPS DC but I do spam HG in Tiamat as well as Divine Glow on my teammates once they cluster around the Heads. The overall DPS boost is more than if I were to spend my divinity spamming other damage encounters on the heads myself. Just gut feel though, no data to back it up.
Yes, I understand the WHY it is. I wish they'd just halve that time, rather than zero AP during the entire use, perhaps a timed cost, say 10 seconds instead of the twenty or whatever it is (I think it's twenty or thirty) - basically 50%. Or create a different cost: like zero Divinity or something.
I'm just saying it's a huge cost to cast it; big penalty that isn't worth it when there are other dailies that will work better. For example: I can cast many of the other dailies twice in the time it costs me to use HG.
Yes, I understand the WHY it is. I wish they'd just halve that time, rather than zero AP during the entire use, perhaps a timed cost, say 10 seconds instead of the twenty or whatever it is (I think it's twenty or thirty) - basically 50%. Or create a different cost: like zero Divinity or something.
I'm just saying it's a huge cost to cast it; big penalty that isn't worth it when there are other dailies that will work better (than its current state). For example: I can cast many of the other dailies twice in the time it costs me to use HG.
The OP is asking WHY DCs are not using Hallowed Ground. So I explained why I don't use it and based on the dearth of usage it is safe to presume most other DCs feel the same way.
It is common for players of a particular class to not understand why someone of a different class may change something so common all of a sudden (if they never play that class). I would't expect other classes to know how our (Devoted Clerics) powers and feats were so drastically changed. And there's no reason why they should care. So the OP question is a really good one. I'm just trying to proffer a good, detailed answer and explanation to the question.
Sure, maybe there's no need to spam HG during regular dungeon trash clears anymore because the fights are short and you get no AP in between. However, that applies for short fights in different locations. For any extended fight (especially with so many people around you) HG and AA are the best thing you can do - unless you think your dailies account for more than 15% of team DPS.
As for why people stopped using it? Dev say "no AP gain" and no one bothers investigating ways around it - just run like headless chickens.
Plz elaborate, 'work better'. Tiamat is a dps race at the heads. It is either 35% more dmg for 25 ppl, thats equal to 8,75 extra players damaging the boss or two more of your dailies. Either I am missing something or 'works better' equals two dailies doing more dmg than 8,75 other players.
IMO the OP is right, HG is the best option and I use it on CD. I dont really mind the AP penalty due to AP necklace and DC artefact, but as far as I recall the AP regeneration goes back to normal, when you leave the HG.
Im a little confused about those who say otherwise.
However, I would state each DC would need to determine the instance itself and see what is needed. I disagree about the myriad of reasons, in terms of the Actual dragon heads, there is only one reason, if its a DPS failure.. that one DC isnt doing its job. It only takes one righteous to make a failed instance to succeed. Triple divine DG, FF , HP and HG, with GPF = win in three phases, no matter how poor the dps is to start with, in a good instance, you can drop that and get it done in 2 phases.
If a DC was doing that, then the instance would've succeeded on most occasions. Now, of course, if the group is so bad they cant clear cleric phases, thats another story.
I really dont know the percentage, but I dont know what some of the DCs are doing, It only takes one righteous to do this, I cant believe when Im one of my other toons, that not even one righteous is maxing out DPS, but I have to determine that is the case like 50% of the runs I do outside of my DC. Thats pretty bad. There has to be alot of DPS clerics out there, enough that Tiamat should succeed way more often then the failures I see.
and yes.. failure to use HG could be a source of failure for that instance, but again, its up to each individual to determine this. (let alone two dcs that can keep it up 100% of the time while dpsing.)
Thanks to recent DC changes (and recent influx of DCs) I've been in a lot more runs where DCs were using HG, as compared to runs were, despite the presence of such classes, more than a few notable class buffs/debuffs were missing.
My DC did and still doing a lot of AP from healing. DC sigil reduces this time by 50% and I'm not using Imperial Cloak yet. But when i heal 10-15 people around for10k-20k average, it is amazing AP gain. Agree, some 20k-24k gs may say they dont need external heal, but they are actually ideal AP nodes with 60-70k hp crits
I myself use Draconic set (heal buff), my full Righteous DC (+40% from Power and stats) , Healing Action feat for AP generation included. I have Healing Lore (more heal) and Foresight slotted. Encounters: 3x D DG or BoH, E DG or E BoH and i use SB to push adds away from clerics and from people on platform. My only DPS at-will for dragons is Brand of Sun (to proc Bear Your Sins).
— (The unwritten rule)
HG lasts 15sec. No AP gain during this time even if you leave the buffed area. If someone has problem w/ AP gain use D-Chains. Works like a charm.
I agree that (any) DC's main task should be to buff and debuff non-stop. I use HP set at the moment. If I knew that there are at least 5 more DC/GF/GWF in the raid w/ full DT set I would switch to DT. Using BotS (10% incoming damage debuff from BYS), 3xD-DG (10-30% increased damage buff), E-PoD (25% DR debuff), N-DG (15% DR debuff + 15% incoming damage debuff from CG), HG (30% increased damage buff) + HP (10-30% DR debuff) is a huge boost from the DC alone. This is our task like it or not. Using HoF instead of HG just b/c the AP gain penalty is selfish in my eyes.
On the other hand I have to agree w/ that fail happens even if you did your best. Not using gems at green/blue head leads to a wipe. Even if you revive and run back, you lost 10-15 sec. Over damaging heads is an other source of a fail and there are some other.
Edited: HG is 30% damage boost as far as I remember but I need to test it.
Not if your righteous. Righteous clerics = win.
Its incumbent on any class that has debuffs/buffs to stack them wisely. But there is NO class that can increase DPS like a righteous DC, so hence when you see a DPS fail, I squarely blame it on the DCs.
Its sad to say this is a dps race on heads, so unfortently healing specs are not needed, in fact they are a deterrent overall, due to the lag atm. Maybe if lag is fixed, then having one is ok, since they can keep Cws up without having to dodge around.
But saying that a low DPS fail is the DCs' fault makes me smiled a bit. I can not buff up ppl scattered all around (limited area). I can not save them (and even myself) from instant/almost instant death b/c no gems were used at blue/green head.
Anyway, OP asked why HG is not used in ToT. My answer is b/c of selfishness (in my eyes at least).
If you lost by more than 30 seconds or so then sure, feel free to blame DCs not using HG if that's indeed the case in your instance. HG is just that powerful. Otherwise, I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers.
Otherwise, the other things (bugging out heads, not protecting clerics causing cleric bugs, multi aseal tagging, people not laying down gems, not coordinated enough to protect clerics.. all of those failures, if you are doing your part and there isnt at least 9 other poeple doing theirs, then thats not your fault, and YES there as many failures due to these things as there ever is with lack of dps. Sadly, you cant actual expect more then probably 10-15 people to actual do the right thing and it only takes 1 person to screw the instance up for everyone. (partial players issue , partial cyrptics issue)
Ive actual kept track of my failed runs.
Black head bugged due to early attack (2)
White head bug, due to early killing (1) (after killed, next phase, wouldn't appear)
Cleric phase bug, due to people leaving tad early (6) (this is too common, people leave early , not waiting for the sound)
Dps lack (5)
Gem failure on green (2)
Gem failure on blue (3) (ive actually switched to blue)
Lag issues due to healing clerics (3)
As you can see, bugs , lag and gem failures by groups are as common as dps lack if not more so when you add them up.
I cant believe how many people dont even bother with picking up a gem, its startling. That should never fail, but it has (ive grabbed green only to have NO one grab blue, OMG! )This is pure laziness, simple as that.
even if you ask they wont cast HG...
not to mention divine glow, forge master flame, prophecy of doom...
some players have no idea how much damage DC can add to a zerg party (even healer can double the damage of the party...)
even with the AP nerf, it is still the strongest daily buff by far
In this case I just misunderstood what you had wrote.
BTW asterotg is right, HG grants 35% damage increase (w/o target limit as far as I know). I thought it is just 30%. Not using it is a misplay of the DC class (any spec).
I tried out LoF+D-Chain AP gain on PTS in IWD on 1 dummy w/o feats/boons, Foresight and Terrifying Impact slotted, 39.3% AP gain from ability score/recovery/racial bonus (sun elf), no other AP gain bonus. It took 9 D-chains + the LoF (to gain Divinity) to fill up AP and I did not use any N/E encounter. What can lead many DCs to the conclusion it is so hard to gain AP is that D-DG, D-FF, D-BtS, D-DL, N/D/E-PoD, D-SB, D-HW and D-BoH (w/o healing at least) do not grant any AP. N/D-SL grants me ~7%, N/D-Chain 9% and N/E-DG 9% AP. So using N/D-Chains is the best to gain AP followed by D-SL. Use them and use HG!
I have won 123 Linu's Favors, with a success rate of about 95% and I do not slot Hallowed Ground.
It neither heals and it does not stack with itself. So having every Cleric in the instance slot it is pointless since it means the majority of them will contribute no daily at all. For the curious, I slot Guardian of Faith for the heads (and no, it doesn't produce lag). For the 2 losses to lack of DPS that I've had in the last 7 days, all the Hallowed Ground in the world wouldn't have made a difference (if you can't even clear green in the first round, you flat out don't have the DPS).
Seriously, this always the Cleric's fault business is getting old. If you're going to try to say that the instance is failing because someone else isn't boosting your damage enough is to say that your lack of DPS is the cause of the failure. Not the handful of Clerics in the instance, but the other people who entered into ToT already knowing they were going to underperform.
If you show up to a team sport event out of shape and in flip-flops, blame yourself.
Well, my one worst char has 16+k GS and vorpal, the others btw. 19k and 24k GS and perf.vorpal or gr. plf. up to all legendaries, 5+ epic companions, R9s and R10s etc.
I DO complain about the AFK, the undergeared players, lack of que system etc, but this does not translate to 'my chars have decent equip, I do my share, dont bother me'.
Due to the fact, that there are many AFK, laggy, new or lazy players underperforming, most of the times it comes to a few players doing the job for many. This includes boosting their damage. For me, if I went with my DC it came down to prophecy of doom, DG, FF and HG as daily, to debuff the head and buff group dmg on heads.
If I play one of my other chars and there are 4+ DC in the instance, I complain too, if they dont buff/ debuff and use HG. Players with decent gear dont need healing in the bossfight, but dmg boosts, to kill the heads as fast as possible.
The GF, who does not group and does not use 'into the frey', the CW without HV set, the TR without wicked reminder and many others are equaly 'to blame', even with decent equip, if there is a lack of dmg.
HG is a strong dmg boost and everyone sees, if it is used, by its effects. Not many ppl check, if the other buffs/ debuffs are present. While there are many culprits, the visible ones get the 'blame'.
I would not call it blame, but a question, why ppl dont contribute to their max abilities. I would not ask ppl to change ther spec or playstyle, to compensate others lack of skill, gear, dps or whatever, but most of the DC, no matter theis spec, should have HG and could use it to help the group to win the fight.
No matter who is paingiver, the buff/debuff DC is the most powerful class, if you evaluate group performance, so lets use this abilities to carry their sorry asses to victory.
playing this style beeing 15k rightous DC you can give a 100% boost to damage all in all, so its like i am wearing 150k GS
playing faithfull or virtous DC you can easily get on first position in the shart by spamming Bastion of health, avoiding Astral seal or Astral shield to take ur mates more damage--> more heal--> more points... but in the end u lose
and these guys you wrote about in the tiamat content are just poor players who can´t read but always know how to lose the best way
i spam it 10 times during tiamat encounter using the sigil (only purple)...what is your point cant understand this arguments, please explain it to me
This.
My purview is if you don't play the class (at least leveled it to 20 or better) then you have no place telling, asking, demanding. expecting anyone else how to play that class. Go ahead and biotch and whine about it. Your rants shall fall on deaf ears. Again, this is my purview on the subject, so go ahead and flame-on against me.
The OP proffers a good question. I answered it truthfully and accurately and with that this thread turns into the typical "no, you can do this" or "you must do that else you're a crappola-player, etc.". Hey, wotevar.
None should dictate what another player of a different class does or does not do. But hen we get into the "kicking" issue which is another, albeit related subject altogether.
Here's a thought: rather than blaming another player (regardless of their Player-Character class) how about you focus on your own play and take some of that responsibility? Sure, there are 'bad' DC players out there. But there are 'bad' TR, HR, GF, SW, GWF players out there, too. But you only seem to notice the DC 'bad' players then use a giant brush to swath disdain on an entire character class.
Well-played, people. Well-played.
as i understand this threat its more or less about these "horror-runs" everone only playing bullsh..t and you lose in the end,
that is what i experience 1 out of 2 fight, not beeing 21k+ and going with mates at predefined times, like some other player posted (95% win, lol)
going zerg with teammates all 20k there is no challenge and sure u can spam hammer of fate even tough it doesn´t help anyone
Why would you go into a 25-person raid and NOT use your best buff/debuff abilities?
And this goes not just for DC's and Hallowed Ground, but for TRs and Wicked Reminder, for CWs and High Vizier, etc.
Yes it sucks that AP gain was nerfed for HG. But (a) we have the DC sigil, and (b) what else are you going to use your daily for anyway? Flame Strike? Hammer of Fate? How could these possibly help the group any more than Hallowed Ground would, even with the lower number of instances of HG casting that the AP nerf caused?
And yes I have a 15k DC that has enjoyed success in the Tiamat raid, and the only daily I use there is Hallowed Ground. With a purple DC sigil and normal AP gain I can use HG at least 7 or 8 times in the fight.
I think this is just one symptom of a larger problem, that the community here has become more self-absorbed and selfish as time has gone on. I see this with other CWs not wearing High Vizier even though it is still the best PVE set in the game for CWs, because "the stats suck" (admittedly they do, but that's not the reason to wear HV) and so they would rather maximize personal GS rather than buff the entire team. I see this with TRs not using Wicked Reminder, DCs not wearing High Prophet, etc., etc. And if a raid should fail, they scapegoat the 10k GS players. That is the infuriating part.
IMO, if you are a DC that doesn't use High Prophet or Hallowed Ground, and the raid fails, *you* are part of the reason why.