The test was to figure out of it is even theoretically possible under best-case conditions for a 10k character to do enough damage to beat Tiamat. That's all. There were simplifying assumptions involved which were acknowledged.
Yes, in a reality, characters need to do significantly more DPS than 10k in order to protect the clerics and burn down the heads rapidly enough. We know.
Those aren't best case conditions, those are fantasy conditions. You will NEVER not get stunned or hit. You will NEVER be able to stand in one place and hit all the heads.
Bottom line, a 10K should not be allowed into Tiamat.
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m1nuendMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2014
^I kinda agree.
You could always try to bring this character into Tiamat?
I am a 14.5k GF and I ranked #1 in a Tiamat win yesterday and consistently rank top 10. If you know how to play the game, GS elitism is a moot point.
Sorry ranking doesn't mean anything. It gets reset after each round and takes healing and damage TAKEN into higher consideration than DPS. At the end of the day you need to finish off all 5 heads in a 2 minute window. If your not doing major dps to the heads your not really assisting much in the win. The clerics are the easy part.....
I am a 14.5k GF and I ranked #1 in a Tiamat win yesterday and consistently rank top 10. If you know how to play the game, GS elitism is a moot point.
You know, this ranking means nothing...
@OP
You run with epic arti weapon = contribute more damage than t1/t2. You should check it out in vivo (in Temple): use t1 gear, lesser enchant in weapon, cleric/man at arms pet + free pets. Your boons also brings you more DPS. 10k GS newbies havent finished campaigns yet.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Ok, so some background. The Tiamat fight only requires a 10kgs to enter. There has been lots of debate on if the requirement needs to be higher. I decided to try to pull some data collection and math into this. My personal view when I started this is that a 10kgs player couldn't put out enough dps. We'll examine the data and see if that was correct.
I've been told that each head has 16.4 million HP. I haven't verified this myself but I'm going with that number. If this is wrong please correct me and we can adjust the math.
Tiamat has five heads so the total HP that needs to go away is:
16400000 * 5 = 82000000
So 82 million HP needs to be burnt away in 6 mins.
This is 82000000 / 25 = 3280000 per person
so 3280000 / 6 = 546667 damage per minute which is 546667 /60 = 9111 damage per second.
So I took my SW and started removing gear till I hit 10kgs, well actually 10.5kgs. I removed my p. vorpal, and one piece of my diabloist set so that I wouldn't have the 4pc set, then removed gear till I hit 10kgs. I did not summon an ioun stone, because a 10kgs player likely does not have an ioun stone. I also removed my wild hunt rider as I felt that it would be unlikely that a 10kgs player would have one. I left my erinyes and dancing blade though, because while they only totaled a 13% increase in crit severity that comes close enough to equal the 10k player having a lesser vorpal. I did not remove the ioun stone or my dire wolf companion as neither has a passive that would increase dps.
I then started attacking a training dummy with HoB, WB, DT, KF, and FoP. I purposely did not use any artifacts active effect.
To my surprise my dps was 10110 dps.
This is higher than the 9111 dps that is the minimum needed to pull your weight. This means that under optimal conditions a 10kgs player can pull their weight. I was wrong.
Now it's very very close, and on a class that has one of the higher single target dps. However it does mean that if the group plays perfectly a 10kgs player can contribute fully. Because of this I have to now change my views that the GS requirement needs to be raised because the requirement is only the minimum where success is possible but very difficult.
The video of me performing this test can be found here http://youtu.be/g0vhaA7Yn7E
(I'm on a slow upload connection at the moment and it's likely to take a few hours for the video to be uploaded.)
You forgot to count run time from dragon to dragon.. and you forgot to count if dragon knocks them off into lava or freezes them.. or kills them.
This means you need 25 people no mistakes no deaths.. and CLEAR THE CLERICS (which they fail at)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
try this again with a brand new level 60, no campaigns completed, no boons, basic affordable enchants, basic pets, T1 gear and weapon.
then do it IN tiamat. log your dps there, where it matters. where you will die. a lot. where you have to run from head to head, not standing in one spot spamming encounters on a stationary target as fast as they refresh.
you're not even factoring in the cleric phases which are much MUCH more important.
fact is tiamat should have at least 13k GS req. if not 14-15k. and that's only a start. it should probably require 2 top level boons from 2 of the campaigns as well, but I know pw has to attract new players with the rapidly dwindling player base....
I only have 17.7k but I can assure you I'm 3x as survivable and do 5x the damage that nub 60 at 10k GS would, due to enchants, boons and pets that don't even show up in GS... Vorpal = 0 GS. Soulforge = 0GS. Overload slots = 0GS. Top level boons that boost damage, healing, control = 0 GS, etc etc etc
It's not about GS per se. It's about experience, knowing your character. A blunt 13k limit will get you nowhere. GS is too easy and too cheap to get to mean anything. What they should do is prevent people from doing mod 3 before doing mod 1 and 2. And mod4 before mod 3 up to the 3rd/4th boon etc. While during that time the player's GS does increase, it also increases the player's experience, which is much more important in events like this.
You know this is the big thing. Experience. I'm convinced after this test that if, (and this is impossible as we can't form a premade for tiamat) we were to set up a 25 person raid of experienced people with specific composition, all between 10-11k GS, the raid could be beaten with 5x5 tactics and everyone coordinating in a voice chat. It would be hard, like hard mode raiding on a new raid in more hardcore mmo's, but possible as long as everyone does everything right and no bad luck happens. Now that's not here or there as stated above because of our inability to actually preform for the raid.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know this is the big thing. Experience. I'm convinced after this test that if, (and this is impossible as we can't form a premade for tiamat) we were to set up a 25 person raid of experienced people with specific composition, all between 10-11k GS, the raid could be beaten with 5x5 tactics and everyone coordinating in a voice chat. It would be hard, like hard mode raiding on a new raid in more hardcore mmo's, but possible as long as everyone does everything right and no bad luck happens. Now that's not here or there as stated above because of our inability to actually preform for the raid.
Interesting because my parse and especially your parse convinces me that they can't. Tiamat needs a minimum of 13k GS and that's with experienced players who just happen to be playing lower GS characters with aug pets and optimal builds. Really the GS req to factor in randoms/inexperienced players should be about 15k.
We both ran glass cannon 10k characters against dummies. You didn't factor in travel time and came up with a 10k DPS threshold. I factored in travel time and came up with a 12k DPS threshold, which I couldn't meet on my 10kgs character.
Neither of us factored in the other major concern for a 10k GS character which is survivability. No augment means that the 10k gs you have is all you have, and it is either in damage or it's in survivability, or more likely it's mixed between the two not hitting either threshold for damage needing to be dealt or ability to survive the damage that will be received.
Yes in a party setting you'll have buffs/debuffs (My 10kgs Cleric dps certainly included debuffs), but that will be cancelled out by not factoring in time spent being dead in our parses.
A character needs about 15k DPS minimum on a dummy to seriously consider that it's "Pulling it's weight" in a tiamat fight. It also needs enough survivability to not get 1 shot by a couple of demons or a stray breath weapon hit from being stunned or any of the other things that happen during the fight.
This is impossible on a 10k GS character, experienced or not.
So to answer the original question of this post, Can a 10k gs Character pull their weight in Tiamat? No
Interesting because my parse and especially your parse convinces me that they can't. Tiamat needs a minimum of 13k GS and that's with experienced players who just happen to be playing lower GS characters with aug pets and optimal builds. Really the GS req to factor in randoms/inexperienced players should be about 15k.
We both ran glass cannon 10k characters against dummies. You didn't factor in travel time and came up with a 10k DPS threshold. I factored in travel time and came up with a 12k DPS threshold, which I couldn't meet on my 10kgs character.
Neither of us factored in the other major concern for a 10k GS character which is survivability. No augment means that the 10k gs you have is all you have, and it is either in damage or it's in survivability, or more likely it's mixed between the two not hitting either threshold for damage needing to be dealt or ability to survive the damage that will be received.
Yes in a party setting you'll have buffs/debuffs (My 10kgs Cleric dps certainly included debuffs), but that will be cancelled out by not factoring in time spent being dead in our parses.
A character needs about 15k DPS minimum on a dummy to seriously consider that it's "Pulling it's weight" in a tiamat fight. It also needs enough survivability to not get 1 shot by a couple of demons or a stray breath weapon hit from being stunned or any of the other things that happen during the fight.
This is impossible on a 10k GS character, experienced or not.
So to answer the original question of this post, Can a 10k gs Character pull their weight in Tiamat? No
No, a character needs 10k DPS to pull his/her own weight. That is determined by the HP of the heads, not by anyone's subjective evaluations. You are just moving the goalposts now.
If the team uses the tactics method, a player gets the full 2 minutes of DPS per round at each head, because the player only focuses on 1 head, and the travel time to/from the head is included in the conclusion/beginning of each cleric phase.
But if the team uses the "zerg method", then yes, travel time between the heads must be included - but then you must include the effects of vastly more buffs and debuffs applied to each player! If you have High Vizier, High Prophet, Smolder, Divine Glow, Forgemaster's Flame, GF Mark, Into The Fray, Knight Captain, etc. buffs all stacking, then the DPS requirement per player is actually less than 10k! Which is why the whole "zerg method" works in the first place. Does the enhancement of DPS from buffs make up for the lost DPS due to transit time? I don't know, but the evidence seems to suggest that, due to the success of the "zerg method" in the first place, the answer is yes.
The major survivability issues are in the cleric phase, not in the head phase. Each head's tiny AOE is easily dodged and surviving the breath weapon requires proper use of the gem anyway, which, low GS or high GS doesn't matter. In the cleric phase, there are a whole lot of people defending 3 clerics, plus each player gets infinite respawns right next to the clerics!
And since these tests, the people who want to keep the 10k GS players out are now inventing other reasons to keep them out, generally along the lines of "they just don't belong there". Which just reeks of snobbery and prejudice.
Interesting because my parse and especially your parse convinces me that they can't. Tiamat needs a minimum of 13k GS and that's with experienced players who just happen to be playing lower GS characters with aug pets and optimal builds. Really the GS req to factor in randoms/inexperienced players should be about 15k.
We both ran glass cannon 10k characters against dummies. You didn't factor in travel time and came up with a 10k DPS threshold. I factored in travel time and came up with a 12k DPS threshold, which I couldn't meet on my 10kgs character.
Neither of us factored in the other major concern for a 10k GS character which is survivability. No augment means that the 10k gs you have is all you have, and it is either in damage or it's in survivability, or more likely it's mixed between the two not hitting either threshold for damage needing to be dealt or ability to survive the damage that will be received.
Yes in a party setting you'll have buffs/debuffs (My 10kgs Cleric dps certainly included debuffs), but that will be cancelled out by not factoring in time spent being dead in our parses.
A character needs about 15k DPS minimum on a dummy to seriously consider that it's "Pulling it's weight" in a tiamat fight. It also needs enough survivability to not get 1 shot by a couple of demons or a stray breath weapon hit from being stunned or any of the other things that happen during the fight.
This is impossible on a 10k GS character, experienced or not.
So to answer the original question of this post, Can a 10k gs Character pull their weight in Tiamat? No
No, a character needs 10k DPS to pull his/her own weight. That is determined by the HP of the heads, not by anyone's subjective evaluations. You are just moving the goalposts now.
If the team uses the tactics method, a player gets the full 2 minutes of DPS per round at each head, because the player only focuses on 1 head, and the travel time to/from the head is included in the conclusion/beginning of each cleric phase.
But if the team uses the "zerg method", then yes, travel time between the heads must be included - but then you must include the effects of vastly more buffs and debuffs applied to each player! If you have High Vizier, High Prophet, Smolder, Divine Glow, Forgemaster's Flame, GF Mark, Into The Fray, Knight Captain, etc. buffs all stacking, then the DPS requirement per player is actually less than 10k! Which is why the whole "zerg method" works in the first place. Does the enhancement of DPS from buffs make up for the lost DPS due to transit time? I don't know, but the evidence seems to suggest that, due to the success of the "zerg method" in the first place, the answer is yes.
The major survivability issues are in the cleric phase, not in the head phase. Each head's tiny AOE is easily dodged and surviving the breath weapon requires proper use of the gem anyway, which, low GS or high GS doesn't matter. In the cleric phase, there are a whole lot of people defending 3 clerics, plus each player gets infinite respawns right next to the clerics!
And since these tests, the people who want to keep the 10k GS players out are now inventing other reasons to keep them out, generally along the lines of "they just don't belong there". Which just reeks of snobbery and prejudice.
To add in what pointsman has just said, besides the buffing and debuffing from other players, you can add in the dragon slaying potions for 20% more dps vs the heads, the scrolls for dr, regular potions for a stat boost which I would expect to use if I was going to form up a group for this. I'd also want a specific classes at each head to maximize buffs and dps at each head. Remember I'm not talking about new players doing this but experienced players that could maximize what they get from their gears static 10kgs.
So, OP, can you go run Tiamat with the same set-up and parse to see if you can pull your weight? This may have been said but I just briefly skimmed all of the posts. Granted, 1 run is not a consistent data set of course (or anything close) but trying to survive in the actual fight might be a little more telling. Even though you are out for the optimal 10k performance in a static environment, I would guess that the interruptions to your dps at 10k might be enough to even counteract buffs/debuffs from other players.
So, OP, can you go run Tiamat with the same set-up and parse to see if you can pull your weight? This may have been said but I just briefly skimmed all of the posts. Granted, 1 run is not a consistent data set of course (or anything close) but trying to survive in the actual fight might be a little more telling. Even though you are out for the optimal 10k performance in a static environment, I would guess that the interruptions to your dps at 10k might be enough to even counteract buffs/debuffs from other players.
Honestly the only way I would do it is if I could put together a whole 25 man premade to do it. Doing it at 10kgs would be much harder and with the number of favor I still need I really don't want to intentionally gimp my farming time. Even I don't argue that it's much harder at 10k and honestly I'm not big on making things harder for myself even if I view something as being in the range of possibility.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No, a character needs 10k DPS to pull his/her own weight. That is determined by the HP of the heads, not by anyone's subjective evaluations. You are just moving the goalposts now.
If the team uses the tactics method, a player gets the full 2 minutes of DPS per round at each head, because the player only focuses on 1 head, and the travel time to/from the head is included in the conclusion/beginning of each cleric phase.
But if the team uses the "zerg method", then yes, travel time between the heads must be included - but then you must include the effects of vastly more buffs and debuffs applied to each player! If you have High Vizier, High Prophet, Smolder, Divine Glow, Forgemaster's Flame, GF Mark, Into The Fray, Knight Captain, etc. buffs all stacking, then the DPS requirement per player is actually less than 10k! Which is why the whole "zerg method" works in the first place. Does the enhancement of DPS from buffs make up for the lost DPS due to transit time? I don't know, but the evidence seems to suggest that, due to the success of the "zerg method" in the first place, the answer is yes.
The major survivability issues are in the cleric phase, not in the head phase. Each head's tiny AOE is easily dodged and surviving the breath weapon requires proper use of the gem anyway, which, low GS or high GS doesn't matter. In the cleric phase, there are a whole lot of people defending 3 clerics, plus each player gets infinite respawns right next to the clerics!
And since these tests, the people who want to keep the 10k GS players out are now inventing other reasons to keep them out, generally along the lines of "they just don't belong there". Which just reeks of snobbery and prejudice.
No, you are the one with false goal posts to begin with. The question Charononus asked and the evidence he supplied do not correlate, and its been 5 pages of people explaining why. All he has shown is that a 10k gs SW can do 10k DPS to a training dummy.
The reality is, in pristine optimal conditions vs a training dummy, a character needs 12k DPS, not 10k, determined by the hp of the heads. There are 0 tactical runs, you must use Zerg so must account for travel time. I've yet to see a parse of a 10k GS character doing 12k DPS to a dummy much less tiamat so no, a 10k gs character does not belong.
Keep in mind that dummies are not real mobs. They don't have hp and they don't have damage resistance. 10k GS characters do not have max PVE armor pen. So the best shown so far is a purposely degeared legendary artifact weapon using SW at 10kgs only dealing 10k DPS on a training dummy. Remove all that Armor pen and he's doing 8k DPS. he needs to deal 50% more dmg to start pulling his weight. As I stated and you glossed over, buff/debuff is counteracted by time spend dead because players die all the time, and if you are 10k GS you are a completely new totally inexperienced player you are going to die often in Tiamat.
So no it's not subjective. We've just proven you need more than 10k GS to pull your weight in Tiamat.
Interesting to note, read the text. then look at the requirement. what a joke. You should focus on the text and we should increase the requirement below it until it matches said text.
The reality is, in pristine optimal conditions vs a training dummy, a character needs 12k DPS, not 10k, determined by the hp of the heads. There are 0 tactical runs, you must use Zerg so must account for travel time. I've yet to see a parse of a 10k GS character doing 12k DPS to a dummy much less tiamat so no, a 10k gs character does not belong.
Okay, so YOUR standard is that a player must be able to dish out 12k DPS, is that correct?
Well then. Let's do some math.
Let us suppose that this hapless 10k player has ZERO armor penetration. (Since so many of you equate "low GS" with "incompetent player"). So the 10k DPS that this 10k GS player dishes out against a training dummy is reduced by (1-0.24) to 7.6 k DPS when it is against Tiamat.
Oh noes! We must kick this player from the raid!
But wait. We are doing a ZERG. So this player benefits from all of the buffs and debuffs from all 24 other participants in the raid.
Let's suppose that, among these 24 other participants, there is a TR applying Wicked Reminder (25% buff), a GF using Tide of Iron (20% buff) and applying Mark (8% buff), and a DC applying 3xDivine Glow (15% buff). (Incidentally, none of these buffs are dependent on the player's GS.)
So this poor 10k GS player's 7.6k DPS turns into 7.6k * (1+0.25+0.2+0.08+0.15) = 12.768k DPS. Which exceeds YOUR OWN standard of 12k DPS.
And this does not even consider if the DC is wearing High Prophet, if the GF is wearing Knight Captain, or if anyone is using a debuff enchant like Plague Fire or Terror.
And this does not even consider if there are ANY higher-GS players present like a CW using High Vizier.
THIS IS WHY THE ZERG METHOD WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE. All of the stacked buffs/debuffs amplify EVERYONE'S DPS by such a large amount.
So yes, it is possible for a 10k GS player, with reasonable buffs/debuffs present, to yield 12k in DPS. Is that acceptable enough for you?
So yes, it is possible for a 10k GS player, with reasonable buffs/debuffs present, to yield 12k in DPS. Is that acceptable enough for you?
I'm more concerned with the caliber of player behind the 10k GS toon rather than the gearscore itself.
Bad builds, bad choices in gear and artifacts, incorrect skills, inability to listen and communicate. That's what people don't like among the 10k GS players more than the 10,000 digit.
Debuffs are quite important.
GS is not everything cause enchants are not part of GS and a perfect enchant/ stronh weapon enchant makes the difference.
I'd say debuffs are necessary for this quest. GS should be reworked to include weapon and armor enchants and be more accurate.
Also stuff like feats, crit severity feats and boons exc...are not taken into account with GS. It's very misleading.
Just raising current GS requirements would make people go for a DPS boost and nothing else.
Example: my GWF is 17k instigator with 40% base crit chance, 50% with weapon master stacks. Can have my capstone up with right placement taking the right hits and avoiding heavy hits. Requires some strategy but can be done.
I can strip him of his Gvorpal and go Destroyer with power from def and power from ArP/recovery feats, and get may be close to 19k. Would have more GS but without Vorpal with the high crit chance, would hit for less.
Also the paragon path you choose and powers you use are important.
GS does not equal high DPS. Unless devs rework it to have a real meaning.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
There are several flaws with your math:
1. 12k DPS is not enough, check my previous post to see why. In short because not all toons are DPS toons.
2. Not all Buffs/Debuffs are equal, some are multiplicative, some are additive.
3. Certain debuffs give less damage bonus for a toon that does not have enough RI% to completely negate the enemy's DR% than for one that does. Even if you get RI% from one of your attributes (GF, GWF, HR, SW) it's hard to have 24% RI at 10k GS.
It's very hard to exactly calculate the DPS required for someone to carry it's own weight, because there are a lot of variables that needs to be taken into account, but it's safe to say that a 10k GS DPS toon is a waste of slot in Tiamat. A 10k GS Buff/Debuff DC is helpful, sure, but at 10k GS you should be doing dailies, unlocking boons, and gearing up, not waste your and other player's time in ToT.
It doesn't make sense even from a lore standpoint. I mean, you need higher GS and 3 boons to be allowed to go to IWD. You need more GS to enter SoT & LoL and you also need to have finished all of the previous tasks, which takes 20+ days. Yet, you can enter WoD & ToT pretty much the day you hit 60.
Like it or not ToT is just a simple DPS check. In every other game, Tiamat would be the 1st or 2nd boss in a raid, a simple DPS check that stops unprepared/undergeared players from progressing further.
what is the recharge time of a cleric without interruptions? 1min, 1.30 ?
1min, according to others. So a premade of 25 good players, could in theory finish ToT in <5 mins. I suspect this is the main reason why we'll never be able to queue with a 25 man premade.
1min, according to others. So a premade of 25 good players, could in theory finish ToT in <5 mins. I suspect this is the main reason why we'll never be able to queue with a 25 man premade.
So a grp that can do cleric phase right will have 10 min for head part... it is really doable with full 10k GS.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
So a grp that can do cleric phase right will have 10 min for head part... it is really doable with full 10k GS.
R u sure they can? 10k usualy dont have SF, right? one scrub getting blue breath and 15 ppl on linu death, beside that adds hits to 3-15k or so, for some ppl its 2 hits, and 10k cant kill that add faster than 20k cw stuning evrything all around him, with hell out of dps, even if in BI set...
R u sure they can? 10k usualy dont have SF, right? one scrub getting blue breath and 15 ppl on linu death, beside that adds hits to 3-15k or so, for some ppl its 2 hits, and 10k cant kill that add faster than 20k cw stuning evrything all around him, with hell out of dps, even if in BI set...
well that is why there are proper ways to do it:
1- make balance grps at start and get the gems.
2- let tank agro adds and DONT kill them till the clerics recovered, you can take them near an edge and push them. A 10k GF with a 10K cleric can do that with ease.
3- the rest of the grp can look up at the heads and use the apropiate gem when breath comes.
Unless you do it with 25 people 10K gs, theory crafting is just that.. theory.
Less than 5 minutes ago I was in the unfortunate position of wasting 25 minutes of my time against Tiamat because most of the players were under 13K GS... we lost terribly. Even though we fought until the very end, you could tell at the first round, it was going to be tough... the second round, (if you fought Tia enough) you knew the 3rd would be a waste... did it anyway, and didn't come close to even approaching the first dragon after the cleric's call.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
well that is why there are proper ways to do it:
1- make balance grps at start and get the gems.
2- let tank agro adds and DONT kill them till the clerics recovered, you can take them near an edge and push them. A 10k GF with a 10K cleric can do that with ease.
3- the rest of the grp can look up at the heads and use the apropiate gem when breath comes.
but that request of player to know they toons like "elite pvp" players do, u need perfect build to maximalize dps on those 10k, u need right sloted, u need good timing and right use of dodges. If u can find 25x 10k player like that, Mystra bless u. And im not speaking here about 20k ppl taking they gear of till 10k...
but that request of player to know they toons like "elite pvp" players do, u need perfect build to maximalize dps on those 10k, u need right sloted, u need good timing and right use of dodges. If u can find 25x 10k player like that, Mystra bless u. And im not speaking here about 20k ppl taking they gear of till 10k...
DITTO!!!! During Tiamat, you have stuns, multiple mobs potentially jumping you, the various dragons breathing, et al. Low GS typically does not have proper defense stats, proper armor penetration for the heads, etc. Tiamat should have a minimum GS to enter of 13K like epic LoL.
well that is why there are proper ways to do it:
1- make balance grps at start and get the gems.
2- let tank agro adds and DONT kill them till the clerics recovered, you can take them near an edge and push them. A 10k GF with a 10K cleric can do that with ease.
3- the rest of the grp can look up at the heads and use the apropiate gem when breath comes.
1 - it's random 25 players. Why would you assume you can make balanced groups?
2 - see 1. There might not be any tanks.
3 - Good luck with dpsing the head while dealing with the adds if your all 10k.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited December 2014
I'd rather have a team of 10K GS players that are actually playing than a bunch of idiots who stop when there's still 2-3 minutes left and **** it up for everyone.
Comments
Those aren't best case conditions, those are fantasy conditions. You will NEVER not get stunned or hit. You will NEVER be able to stand in one place and hit all the heads.
Bottom line, a 10K should not be allowed into Tiamat.
You could always try to bring this character into Tiamat?
Sorry ranking doesn't mean anything. It gets reset after each round and takes healing and damage TAKEN into higher consideration than DPS. At the end of the day you need to finish off all 5 heads in a 2 minute window. If your not doing major dps to the heads your not really assisting much in the win. The clerics are the easy part.....
You know, this ranking means nothing...
@OP
You run with epic arti weapon = contribute more damage than t1/t2. You should check it out in vivo (in Temple): use t1 gear, lesser enchant in weapon, cleric/man at arms pet + free pets. Your boons also brings you more DPS. 10k GS newbies havent finished campaigns yet.
You forgot to count run time from dragon to dragon.. and you forgot to count if dragon knocks them off into lava or freezes them.. or kills them.
This means you need 25 people no mistakes no deaths.. and CLEAR THE CLERICS (which they fail at)
try this again with a brand new level 60, no campaigns completed, no boons, basic affordable enchants, basic pets, T1 gear and weapon.
then do it IN tiamat. log your dps there, where it matters. where you will die. a lot. where you have to run from head to head, not standing in one spot spamming encounters on a stationary target as fast as they refresh.
you're not even factoring in the cleric phases which are much MUCH more important.
fact is tiamat should have at least 13k GS req. if not 14-15k. and that's only a start. it should probably require 2 top level boons from 2 of the campaigns as well, but I know pw has to attract new players with the rapidly dwindling player base....
I only have 17.7k but I can assure you I'm 3x as survivable and do 5x the damage that nub 60 at 10k GS would, due to enchants, boons and pets that don't even show up in GS... Vorpal = 0 GS. Soulforge = 0GS. Overload slots = 0GS. Top level boons that boost damage, healing, control = 0 GS, etc etc etc
You know this is the big thing. Experience. I'm convinced after this test that if, (and this is impossible as we can't form a premade for tiamat) we were to set up a 25 person raid of experienced people with specific composition, all between 10-11k GS, the raid could be beaten with 5x5 tactics and everyone coordinating in a voice chat. It would be hard, like hard mode raiding on a new raid in more hardcore mmo's, but possible as long as everyone does everything right and no bad luck happens. Now that's not here or there as stated above because of our inability to actually preform for the raid.
Interesting because my parse and especially your parse convinces me that they can't. Tiamat needs a minimum of 13k GS and that's with experienced players who just happen to be playing lower GS characters with aug pets and optimal builds. Really the GS req to factor in randoms/inexperienced players should be about 15k.
We both ran glass cannon 10k characters against dummies. You didn't factor in travel time and came up with a 10k DPS threshold. I factored in travel time and came up with a 12k DPS threshold, which I couldn't meet on my 10kgs character.
Neither of us factored in the other major concern for a 10k GS character which is survivability. No augment means that the 10k gs you have is all you have, and it is either in damage or it's in survivability, or more likely it's mixed between the two not hitting either threshold for damage needing to be dealt or ability to survive the damage that will be received.
Yes in a party setting you'll have buffs/debuffs (My 10kgs Cleric dps certainly included debuffs), but that will be cancelled out by not factoring in time spent being dead in our parses.
A character needs about 15k DPS minimum on a dummy to seriously consider that it's "Pulling it's weight" in a tiamat fight. It also needs enough survivability to not get 1 shot by a couple of demons or a stray breath weapon hit from being stunned or any of the other things that happen during the fight.
This is impossible on a 10k GS character, experienced or not.
So to answer the original question of this post, Can a 10k gs Character pull their weight in Tiamat? No
No, a character needs 10k DPS to pull his/her own weight. That is determined by the HP of the heads, not by anyone's subjective evaluations. You are just moving the goalposts now.
If the team uses the tactics method, a player gets the full 2 minutes of DPS per round at each head, because the player only focuses on 1 head, and the travel time to/from the head is included in the conclusion/beginning of each cleric phase.
But if the team uses the "zerg method", then yes, travel time between the heads must be included - but then you must include the effects of vastly more buffs and debuffs applied to each player! If you have High Vizier, High Prophet, Smolder, Divine Glow, Forgemaster's Flame, GF Mark, Into The Fray, Knight Captain, etc. buffs all stacking, then the DPS requirement per player is actually less than 10k! Which is why the whole "zerg method" works in the first place. Does the enhancement of DPS from buffs make up for the lost DPS due to transit time? I don't know, but the evidence seems to suggest that, due to the success of the "zerg method" in the first place, the answer is yes.
The major survivability issues are in the cleric phase, not in the head phase. Each head's tiny AOE is easily dodged and surviving the breath weapon requires proper use of the gem anyway, which, low GS or high GS doesn't matter. In the cleric phase, there are a whole lot of people defending 3 clerics, plus each player gets infinite respawns right next to the clerics!
And since these tests, the people who want to keep the 10k GS players out are now inventing other reasons to keep them out, generally along the lines of "they just don't belong there". Which just reeks of snobbery and prejudice.
To add in what pointsman has just said, besides the buffing and debuffing from other players, you can add in the dragon slaying potions for 20% more dps vs the heads, the scrolls for dr, regular potions for a stat boost which I would expect to use if I was going to form up a group for this. I'd also want a specific classes at each head to maximize buffs and dps at each head. Remember I'm not talking about new players doing this but experienced players that could maximize what they get from their gears static 10kgs.
Honestly the only way I would do it is if I could put together a whole 25 man premade to do it. Doing it at 10kgs would be much harder and with the number of favor I still need I really don't want to intentionally gimp my farming time. Even I don't argue that it's much harder at 10k and honestly I'm not big on making things harder for myself even if I view something as being in the range of possibility.
No, you are the one with false goal posts to begin with. The question Charononus asked and the evidence he supplied do not correlate, and its been 5 pages of people explaining why. All he has shown is that a 10k gs SW can do 10k DPS to a training dummy.
The reality is, in pristine optimal conditions vs a training dummy, a character needs 12k DPS, not 10k, determined by the hp of the heads. There are 0 tactical runs, you must use Zerg so must account for travel time. I've yet to see a parse of a 10k GS character doing 12k DPS to a dummy much less tiamat so no, a 10k gs character does not belong.
Keep in mind that dummies are not real mobs. They don't have hp and they don't have damage resistance. 10k GS characters do not have max PVE armor pen. So the best shown so far is a purposely degeared legendary artifact weapon using SW at 10kgs only dealing 10k DPS on a training dummy. Remove all that Armor pen and he's doing 8k DPS. he needs to deal 50% more dmg to start pulling his weight. As I stated and you glossed over, buff/debuff is counteracted by time spend dead because players die all the time, and if you are 10k GS you are a completely new totally inexperienced player you are going to die often in Tiamat.
So no it's not subjective. We've just proven you need more than 10k GS to pull your weight in Tiamat.
Interesting to note, read the text. then look at the requirement. what a joke. You should focus on the text and we should increase the requirement below it until it matches said text.
Okay, so YOUR standard is that a player must be able to dish out 12k DPS, is that correct?
Well then. Let's do some math.
Let us suppose that this hapless 10k player has ZERO armor penetration. (Since so many of you equate "low GS" with "incompetent player"). So the 10k DPS that this 10k GS player dishes out against a training dummy is reduced by (1-0.24) to 7.6 k DPS when it is against Tiamat.
Oh noes! We must kick this player from the raid!
But wait. We are doing a ZERG. So this player benefits from all of the buffs and debuffs from all 24 other participants in the raid.
Let's suppose that, among these 24 other participants, there is a TR applying Wicked Reminder (25% buff), a GF using Tide of Iron (20% buff) and applying Mark (8% buff), and a DC applying 3xDivine Glow (15% buff). (Incidentally, none of these buffs are dependent on the player's GS.)
So this poor 10k GS player's 7.6k DPS turns into 7.6k * (1+0.25+0.2+0.08+0.15) = 12.768k DPS. Which exceeds YOUR OWN standard of 12k DPS.
And this does not even consider if the DC is wearing High Prophet, if the GF is wearing Knight Captain, or if anyone is using a debuff enchant like Plague Fire or Terror.
And this does not even consider if there are ANY higher-GS players present like a CW using High Vizier.
THIS IS WHY THE ZERG METHOD WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE. All of the stacked buffs/debuffs amplify EVERYONE'S DPS by such a large amount.
So yes, it is possible for a 10k GS player, with reasonable buffs/debuffs present, to yield 12k in DPS. Is that acceptable enough for you?
I'm more concerned with the caliber of player behind the 10k GS toon rather than the gearscore itself.
Bad builds, bad choices in gear and artifacts, incorrect skills, inability to listen and communicate. That's what people don't like among the 10k GS players more than the 10,000 digit.
GS is not everything cause enchants are not part of GS and a perfect enchant/ stronh weapon enchant makes the difference.
I'd say debuffs are necessary for this quest. GS should be reworked to include weapon and armor enchants and be more accurate.
Also stuff like feats, crit severity feats and boons exc...are not taken into account with GS. It's very misleading.
Just raising current GS requirements would make people go for a DPS boost and nothing else.
Example: my GWF is 17k instigator with 40% base crit chance, 50% with weapon master stacks. Can have my capstone up with right placement taking the right hits and avoiding heavy hits. Requires some strategy but can be done.
I can strip him of his Gvorpal and go Destroyer with power from def and power from ArP/recovery feats, and get may be close to 19k. Would have more GS but without Vorpal with the high crit chance, would hit for less.
Also the paragon path you choose and powers you use are important.
GS does not equal high DPS. Unless devs rework it to have a real meaning.
There are several flaws with your math:
1. 12k DPS is not enough, check my previous post to see why. In short because not all toons are DPS toons.
2. Not all Buffs/Debuffs are equal, some are multiplicative, some are additive.
3. Certain debuffs give less damage bonus for a toon that does not have enough RI% to completely negate the enemy's DR% than for one that does. Even if you get RI% from one of your attributes (GF, GWF, HR, SW) it's hard to have 24% RI at 10k GS.
It's very hard to exactly calculate the DPS required for someone to carry it's own weight, because there are a lot of variables that needs to be taken into account, but it's safe to say that a 10k GS DPS toon is a waste of slot in Tiamat. A 10k GS Buff/Debuff DC is helpful, sure, but at 10k GS you should be doing dailies, unlocking boons, and gearing up, not waste your and other player's time in ToT.
It doesn't make sense even from a lore standpoint. I mean, you need higher GS and 3 boons to be allowed to go to IWD. You need more GS to enter SoT & LoL and you also need to have finished all of the previous tasks, which takes 20+ days. Yet, you can enter WoD & ToT pretty much the day you hit 60.
Like it or not ToT is just a simple DPS check. In every other game, Tiamat would be the 1st or 2nd boss in a raid, a simple DPS check that stops unprepared/undergeared players from progressing further.
1min, according to others. So a premade of 25 good players, could in theory finish ToT in <5 mins. I suspect this is the main reason why we'll never be able to queue with a 25 man premade.
So a grp that can do cleric phase right will have 10 min for head part... it is really doable with full 10k GS.
R u sure they can? 10k usualy dont have SF, right? one scrub getting blue breath and 15 ppl on linu death, beside that adds hits to 3-15k or so, for some ppl its 2 hits, and 10k cant kill that add faster than 20k cw stuning evrything all around him, with hell out of dps, even if in BI set...
well that is why there are proper ways to do it:
1- make balance grps at start and get the gems.
2- let tank agro adds and DONT kill them till the clerics recovered, you can take them near an edge and push them. A 10k GF with a 10K cleric can do that with ease.
3- the rest of the grp can look up at the heads and use the apropiate gem when breath comes.
Less than 5 minutes ago I was in the unfortunate position of wasting 25 minutes of my time against Tiamat because most of the players were under 13K GS... we lost terribly. Even though we fought until the very end, you could tell at the first round, it was going to be tough... the second round, (if you fought Tia enough) you knew the 3rd would be a waste... did it anyway, and didn't come close to even approaching the first dragon after the cleric's call.
but that request of player to know they toons like "elite pvp" players do, u need perfect build to maximalize dps on those 10k, u need right sloted, u need good timing and right use of dodges. If u can find 25x 10k player like that, Mystra bless u. And im not speaking here about 20k ppl taking they gear of till 10k...
DITTO!!!! During Tiamat, you have stuns, multiple mobs potentially jumping you, the various dragons breathing, et al. Low GS typically does not have proper defense stats, proper armor penetration for the heads, etc. Tiamat should have a minimum GS to enter of 13K like epic LoL.
1 - it's random 25 players. Why would you assume you can make balanced groups?
2 - see 1. There might not be any tanks.
3 - Good luck with dpsing the head while dealing with the adds if your all 10k.
Only if the players from top PVP guilds are controlling those toons.
Step back and look at the caliber of players who have 10k GS toons.