2 words: target lock. It's not "skill" or "adapting". It's pressing one button to let a tool lock on target.
and 2 times it's gang-bang with savage advance (lock on target).
Er, what? From what I understand, target lock breaks once a TR goes into stealth. It won't help you find a TR when they stealth. As an aside, I've never, ever known Sobek to use it. You don't need target lock to use savage advance properly...
Ha! u cant take a one time event as a fact, have u seen how sobek clears me? i have absolutely 0 chance vs him not to kill him, i cant even survive him off node! brollax cleared him + allt, again how many times did it happen out of 50 duels?
perma shld remain as an option as dev said it shld be harder to maintain but not to be taken away completely. u guys crying so much cos u get wiped by a tr effectively. its because u are not used to this new tr compare to mod3 and 4 where u didnt even need to dodge the virtually 0 dmg flurry. do u know how long it took to relearn ourselves and how hard we trained to figure out a new viable rotation on preview before mod5 hit live? do u even know the effort sic has put in to make his tr balanced in stats and refined his playstyle? the prob is theres always ppl complaining about either dmg or dodge times or roll distance etc all can be blamed on because they are all different now. learn to counter it as we did testing and nonestop 1v1s for 3+ weeks on preview.
tr needs a dmg reduction sab needs rework cos it went overhead, dont touch the stealth again. you cant make drastic changes to a class's key feature carelessly cos it will only cause more unbalances and issues. end of the story. its already hard to maintain stealth with depetion on hit, reduce the dmg and 100% crit piercing nonesense on sab it will be more acceptable.
Yea so now your rotation is incredible hard to land-> daze-> SE- thank you and see you later. Perma stealth was strong in all modules. Module 1 TR can one shot everyone. Remember module 2 and immortals GWF? only Perma Tr could stand against him. example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW06_FeV5eo. Module 3 we all know that the still GWF was very strong and HR started to be OP in this moment but we all know PTR can hold them and even kill them if he was good. Mod4 we know HR was broken but now he is tonned down and blanced. Maby in module 4 TR hasn't got powerful dmg but he was almost unkilable if played well and could also kill if he knws how to play. Maybe from my CW perspective it looks like this becouse every class can kill me, but now TR is just killing another classes in few seconds. What Devs said: PTR should be difficult to achieve. But how he should be difficult to achieve when all skill + set renew stealth all time? + this incredible high dmg.....sorry but 20k from GC it is far to much.
Er, what? From what I understand, target lock breaks once a TR goes into stealth. It won't help you find a TR when they stealth. As an aside, I've never, ever known Sobek to use it. You don't need target lock to use savage advance properly...
Really? Again, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've been told, it breaks when you lose sight on the target, which pretty much includes when a TR goes into stealth and moves away from the enemy.
I dont understand why you keep linking mod 4 videos, its completely different now, the only job i had was to survive and keep away from ANY CLASS. the fact that i cld get tracked and one shotted cos i had no dmg in mod4 they cld afford to be aggressive, now if a gwf misses his encounters either i dodged or completely out of range on the other side of node where he predicted wrong i can burst back cos of mod5 dmg; same for me, if i miss my daze or timed my moves wrong i deserve to take the wrath from a power based gwf. Again you cant make a 20sec one time event as a proof for anything because its very subjective and situational. sobek knows how to waste my stamina and wipe me when he knows im near or have no itc.. i already agreed the dmg buff we have now is off the chart especailly for a stealth focused tree (sab), as i have stated multiple times, nerf more especially bb and shadow proc and respect DR etc, what stealth has to do with it to begin with? aside from the 100% crit nonesense.
I take that one cause if i say "ok, been playing since july 2013, learned how to spot permas in august 2013, got no problem with perma till module 5. Now it's a problem" you guys would reply "Learn 2 Play". I have yet to see a single 1v1 video, or situation in game, where a equally geared GWF trashed an equally geared TR. I see 14k GWF easily destroyed in PvP while i see 14k TRs going 20-0 in pugs more and more.
And my point of view is exactly opposite to yours and is the same as ortzhy.
High damage is fine as long as i can dodge it and it does not mean 1-shotting people with a daze+daily or just daily on a GWF who cannot dodge (=free kill as tyrion explained in his thread). It's your job.
I'm not fine with current survivability overkill on TRs. Longer rolls and extra roll were needed if, as the devs promised, permastealth would become more difficult to achieve and less rewarding/ at a cost. For very same TR admission permastealth is now even easier and we now have, from an opponent point of view, TRs who can, with proper build, stay in stealth 90% of the time or more while beneffitting from increased dodges and increased mobility. You either have Mod4 stealth with Mod4 mobility/dodges OR mod5 mobility/dodges but with less stealth (i'd prefer this).
Also: TR timing his moves wrong---> very low chance. Sorry but you guys have your target there in plain sight. And timing versus sprint is easy as a pie for me on my GWF/HR, can't imagine when you are safe in stealth.
GWF timing his moves wrong vs a TR he has a 0.2s chance to catch or he has to "predict" while the TR is in stealth? Quite high.
It's not a fair "you can miss, i can miss". By a long shot. Or we would not be here discussing. Right now, against Saboteurs (?) or whatever build it is, it's more like "you're lucky/ must have perfect timing and latency to get me, i can easily nail you unless i use only 0.1% of my brain".
The problem is not damage apart from the one-shotting dailies. It's the survivability, which is right now BY FAR the best, for the Saboteur (stealth focused?) tree among all classes. And i mean ALL CLASSES included DC tanks, GF tanks, GWF tanks. PvP TRs with stealth builds die far less than any other class.
It's no difference from the video above, to be honest, it's even greater the difference now: any class jumping on a node full of enemies= dead in seconds. Module 5 TR with "BiS" build--->jump on node, kills someone, might get hurt (but often, not) but can slip away to recover.
It's attack-->defend. Example: GWF vs GF. I need to time my sprint anticipating their prone/CC combo or i get rotated. Then they need to guard and i need to get behind them. In both cases there's a clear way to attack the enemy and defend from it.
Against TR it's not this way cause you have to anticipate the attack ad sprint (defend), then when you should attack and the TR should defend, the TR is either immune rolling away or in stealth with superior mobility and can still roll quite a bit.
May be sobek has rank 10 darks but even on my GWF with 1k mobility, stamina boon, stamina feat and bravery, TRs can still outrun me with dodges and pure bunnyhopping in stealth. When i anticipate their movements, they just roll away. When you catch them, they can usually stand one rotation or soulforge and disappear again.
Module4 TR needed only a damage buff, not a mobility/ dodge roll buff. You can't have a tree with same stealth as module 4 and much more mobility/ rolls immunity.
Really? Again, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've been told, it breaks when you lose sight on the target, which pretty much includes when a TR goes into stealth and moves away from the enemy.
100% sure it will follow the tr in stealth. Ohh and that should be remove from the game as well, is rly nasty when a GF uses that with shield up or a HR that hits everything...
Er, what? From what I understand, target lock breaks once a TR goes into stealth. It won't help you find a TR when they stealth. As an aside, I've never, ever known Sobek to use it. You don't need target lock to use savage advance properly...
He does not use only savage advance. At some point he is at mid, midgy gets away bunnyhopping in stealth, and sobek follows him bunnyhopping following the same exact path.
When you anticipate a TR you sprint/run straight to where you think he is going. You don't bunnyhope or run doing the exact same turns, exact same movements, following the exact same path.
14:10 roughly: TR in stealth, GWF uses threat rush. Rush needs target, can't target a stealth TR with threat rush unless you're locking on him.
14:20---> TR in stealth. Even if you see him rolling that way, you don't know where the TR will turn (left or right), yet the GWF bunnyhops following exactly the same path.
He's not always locking, but he's doing it, that's what i say.
There's also a thread a TR opened time ago asking for target lock removal cause it allowed GWFs to keep tracking stealth TRs.
Looks like lock does not break if the GWF manages to stay in range of the TR.
Now i doubt a GWF would be able to keep up with a module 5 TR mobility.
Other than that, at 3 minutes he clears the TR roughly guessing where the TR will go and shooting a AoE power with huge radius.
I'm against current Intimidation sentinels as much as i think TRs need a fix on survivability.
Cause it's dumb that the PvP build for GWF is a tank build that deals huge single target damage through a couple of utility AoE moves.
Seriously. You should understand how dumb it is just reading it.
Now, suppose that the devs get back to sanity and decide to rework GWFs to make the work properly (aiming their encounters instead of shooting AoE stuff to kill single enemies in PvP). You can forget about half the times Sobek gets the TR.
This said, it would be interesting to see some vs from these guys in module 5. Expacially after midgy said this Sobek Senpai can clear BiS TRs easily. I'm curious, and if there's something i missed, i'm more than prepared to change my mind. As i said, and you can see it in my old posts, before module 5 i always kinda defended permastealth cause it really was possible to catch permas with skills and anticipation.
100% sure it will follow the tr in stealth. Ohh and that should be remove from the game as well, is rly nasty when a GF uses that with shield up or a HR that hits everything...
Talked with some other people. It's as I said. It breaks when you lose sight of the target, which is when they enter stealth and move away. If it actually worked, far fewer would be complaining about TR stealth, because TRs would be cleared within a matter of seconds by just about any class (especially CW).
That being said, I don't think it should work in PvP either.
Devs already reworked this class to have 3 options:
exe should be the tree which has the most deadly burst dmg and uses stealth as a boost to maximize the dmg potential.
scoundrel is for the ones who like to play as an agile cc brawler.
as for sab its supposed to utilizes and extends the possibility to remain in stealth patiently and strike when an opportunity is open.
They wanted to make it hard to maintain perma, stealth depletion on hit already served the purpose.
However, what the real problem is right now is that sab has both stealth AND dmg. and the fact that a sab can burst u down in a matter of seconds while u dont even know when its coming. its the new dmg we possess now that you are not used to, not because you can't see us most of the time. we cld perma forever in mod4 3 etc but did you feel threatened back then when we landed a flurry on u?
I will repeat this again but for the final time, do ppl even read before summoning comments? Nerf the dmg to moderate what sab is not specialized in, do it in a way that doesnt affect the dmg output for exe TRs in pve, which is why a speperate rework needs to take place. I personally dont care if i have to go back to mod4 dmg as im so used to it. making 2 sec reveal on hit is a cheap, ill considered solution, which will not only making ranged paragon path not viable but also destory the key feature of this class.
Talked with some other people. It's as I said. It breaks when you lose sight of the target, which is when they enter stealth and move away. If it actually worked, far fewer would be complaining about TR stealth, because TRs would be cleared within a matter of seconds by just about any class (especially CW).
That being said, I don't think it should work in PvP either.
go try it and see for yourself (Remember that if there is another target around when he goes stealth, it will get locked on that target B&S for 1v1) So it isnt that effective against them
Really? Again, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've been told, it breaks when you lose sight on the target, which pretty much includes when a TR goes into stealth and moves away from the enemy.
No. It doesn't. I use it now to track permas all over the map. You can even macro it to target one specific person all match. Targeting can screw up with B&S or another target that crosses the reticule.. but if used properly... its a pretty huge advantage :P. If you don't believe me... use the ++HardTargetLock bind and follow a friend around the enclave. Let them go to the other side lolol.
No. It doesn't. I use it now to track permas all over the map. You can even macro it to target one specific person all match. Targeting can screw up with B&S or another target that crosses the reticule.. but if used properly... its a pretty huge advantage :P. If you don't believe me... use the ++HardTargetLock bind and follow a friend around the enclave. Let them go to the other side lolol.
Could you explain in more detail how this target lock works?
He does not use only savage advance. At some point he is at mid, midgy gets away bunnyhopping in stealth, and sobek follows him bunnyhopping following the same exact path.
When you anticipate a TR you sprint/run straight to where you think he is going. You don't bunnyhope or run doing the exact same turns, exact same movements, following the exact same path.
14:10 roughly: TR in stealth, GWF uses threat rush. Rush needs target, can't target a stealth TR with threat rush unless you're locking on him.
14:20---> TR in stealth. Even if you see him rolling that way, you don't know where the TR will turn (left or right), yet the GWF bunnyhops following exactly the same path.
He's not always locking, but he's doing it, that's what i say.
There's also a thread a TR opened time ago asking for target lock removal cause it allowed GWFs to keep tracking stealth TRs.
Looks like lock does not break if the GWF manages to stay in range of the TR.
Now i doubt a GWF would be able to keep up with a module 5 TR mobility.
Other than that, at 3 minutes he clears the TR roughly guessing where the TR will go and shooting a AoE power with huge radius.
I'm against current Intimidation sentinels as much as i think TRs need a fix on survivability.
Cause it's dumb that the PvP build for GWF is a tank build that deals huge single target damage through a couple of utility AoE moves.
Seriously. You should understand how dumb it is just reading it.
Now, suppose that the devs get back to sanity and decide to rework GWFs to make the work properly (aiming their encounters instead of shooting AoE stuff to kill single enemies in PvP). You can forget about half the times Sobek gets the TR.
This said, it would be interesting to see some vs from these guys in module 5. Expacially after midgy said this Sobek Senpai can clear BiS TRs easily. I'm curious, and if there's something i missed, i'm more than prepared to change my mind. As i said, and you can see it in my old posts, before module 5 i always kinda defended permastealth cause it really was possible to catch permas with skills and anticipation.
sobek is one of the best players in the game and he does not use target lock to kill TRs, he has been going up against the best TRs in the game for over a year and a half now, so if you are saying he is target-locking because you cant evade him always, no its just because he is insanely good at what he does, and thats figuring out where a tr is and killing them
Firstly, I'm greatly offended that my friend Jaq truly thinks this poll is fake
As for the people who think its fake and don't know me, it's a public vote, and I'm pretty confident there are more fakes pro stealth change then for it
Yes my guild voted, but as iyon stated theres a good % that voted against me, infact I've had many people say they don't want to vote because it would be against me, and I told them too anyways
I do not care if my point of view is right, I care if my point of view is best for the community, and you can be sore and call it fake, but the results are still evident, even some of my opponents in arguments; Godmode for one, voted for no stealth reveal
Ultimately the reason i'm complaining is as follows
Whenever a TR nerf comes out, I ask my self a question
"Would the team benefit more if I played a different class instead of TR now"
And that answer would be yes should this reveal go through
TR won't be able to stand on its own anymore in realistic premade scenarios, it will constantly have to be baby sitted much like a GWF has to now
the difference is, GWF can run away even if he hits you, TR will hit you, dodge roll once, then you'll catch him with your AoE/Single target CC/ you name it
As velynna stated earlier, Sobek has practiced tons to catch TR's and he does it with minimum ease
Why this is all made possible is because tr's have .2-.5 seconds before the can cast another dodge roll after just completeing one
this is enough time to land any AoE or a spell such as entangle before the TR can dodge again, and should this situation happen after the TR just came out of ITC, it's GG.
So on that ground, I don't see why theres any reason to take TR over any class then SW at this point, should the changes go through
A GWF will have more damage and the ability to run
A GF will benefit the team 100% more
A DC will benefit the team 100% more
A HR can stand on its own and will regain its near top of the game 1v1 Status
A CW Can benefit the team a hell of a lot more with combing CC and 1 shot capabilities *Not saying they need to be removed*
and as stated before, I'm not sure why a team would take a SW over TR, although thats just because SW needs serious buffing
This patch will push TR's out of the useable category for premades because
A) no more node holding if you want the damage, you just take a gwf
C) if you want CC, you just take a CW, because they can also 1 shot
Firstly, I'm greatly offended that my friend Jaq truly thinks this poll is fake
As for the people who think its fake and don't know me, it's a public vote, and I'm pretty confident there are more fakes pro stealth change then for it
Yes my guild voted, but as iyon stated theres a good % that voted against me, infact I've had many people say they don't want to vote because it would be against me, and I told them too anyways
I do not care if my point of view is right, I care if my point of view is best for the community, and you can be sore and call it fake, but the results are still evident, even some of my opponents in arguments; Godmode for one, voted for no stealth reveal
Ultimately the reason i'm complaining is as follows
Whenever a TR nerf comes out, I ask my self a question
"Would the team benefit more if I played a different class instead of TR now"
And that answer would be yes should this reveal go through
TR won't be able to stand on its own anymore in realistic premade scenarios, it will constantly have to be baby sitted much like a GWF has to now
the difference is, GWF can run away even if he hits you, TR will hit you, dodge roll once, then you'll catch him with your AoE/Single target CC/ you name it
As velynna stated earlier, Sobek has practiced tons to catch TR's and he does it with minimum ease
Why this is all made possible is because tr's have .2-.5 seconds before the can cast another dodge roll after just completeing one
this is enough time to land any AoE or a spell such as entangle before the TR can dodge again, and should this situation happen after the TR just came out of ITC, it's GG.
So on that ground, I don't see why theres any reason to take TR over any class then SW at this point, should the changes go through
A GWF will have more damage and the ability to run
A GF will benefit the team 100% more
A DC will benefit the team 100% more
A HR can stand on its own and will regain its near top of the game 1v1 Status
A CW Can benefit the team a hell of a lot more with combing CC and 1 shot capabilities *Not saying they need to be removed*
and as stated before, I'm not sure why a team would take a SW over TR, although thats just because SW needs serious buffing
This patch will push TR's out of the useable category for premades because
A) no more node holding if you want the damage, you just take a gwf
C) if you want CC, you just take a CW, because they can also 1 shot
I think you need to focus on how to change the stealth instead of just saying that you will be useless with the proposed changes. Stealth is a problem and it needs fixing. Im not sure if the proposed fix is good or not but if you dont think its good, come up with another way to deal with perma-stealth.
can we at least agree about the fact that this change will totally destroy saboteur tree?
really that tree has no sense now.
can we agree on that? it needs major rework, a healing tree maybe??
I think you need to focus on how to change the stealth instead of just saying that you will be useless with the proposed changes. Stealth is a problem and it needs fixing. Im not sure if the proposed fix is good or not but if you dont think its good, come up with another way to deal with perma-stealth.
There's no need to come up with a way, it's already possible, Look at what velynna said. I've been telling everyone here for 4 days now that perm stealth is easily countered with
Practice
Visual Tells (that already exist)
and Sound
Trust me when I say velynna has no reason to agree with me, but the truth of the matter is the truth
Now people can say "Thats just 1 guy"
But there was a LOT more in the history of our game, the issue is many of them quit because of the many imbalances that happened
Rookz can chase down stealthers like no other
Allt has a grasp of it
I can do it exceptionally well
Sobek on the same stand
Tyrion is getting the hang of it
Crollax can do it as well
Iyon has developed full encounter rotations where he can sunburst a TR and lay down chains where he'll come down from the air, even when the TR is in stealth
Practice makes perfect, stealth is easily remedied
There's no need to come up with a way, it's already possible, Look at what velynna said. I've been telling everyone here for 4 days now that perm stealth is easily countered with
Practice
Visual Tells (that already exist)
and Sound
Trust me when I say velynna has no reason to agree with me, but the truth of the matter is the truth
Now people can say "Thats just 1 guy"
But there was a LOT more in the history of our game, the issue is many of them quit because of the many imbalances that happened
Rookz can chase down stealthers like no other
Allt has a grasp of it
I can do it exceptionally well
Sobek on the same stand
Tyrion is getting the hang of it
Crollax can do it as well
Iyon has developed full encounter rotations where he can sunburst a TR and lay down chains where he'll come down from the air, even when the TR is in stealth
Practice makes perfect, stealth is easily remedied
\
(claps) I applaud you sir!
This is so true!
Making TR show up when attacking will only take away the other viable options TRs currently have with executioner and sab paths.
Scoundrel will be prime because of the daze effect from critical hits.
Thus,
Players will max scoundrel capstone and feats with 10 points in sab tree for gloaming stealth ability, then just daze gloaming you to death.
Notice you don't see this happening now?
WHY?
Because TR's know they don't have to choke down one method of playing to have a "chance" to win.
Imagine a premade party of TR that you can see when they hit you... but still you cannot hit back because you are perma dazed.
That is what is coming.
That is what is being forced.
end of story..
All I will say is wait and see..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Making TR show up when attacking will only take away the other viable options TRs currently have with executioner and sab paths.
Scoundrel will be prime because of the daze effect from critical hits.
Thus,
Players will max scoundrel capstone and feats with 10 points in sab tree for gloaming stealth ability, then just daze gloaming you to death.
Notice you don't see this happening now?
WHY?
Because TR's know they don't have to choke down one method of playing to have a "chance" to win.
Imagine a premade party of TR that you can see when they hit you... but still you cannot hit back because you are perma dazed.
That is what is coming.
That is what is being forced.
end of story..
All I will say is wait and see..
I'd agree, but they're just going to 2v1 you because your an easy target and if they get there before your team mate does your dead!
Difference is you have a purple shield and you can spam your dodges back to back and repel people away from you
And you can benefit your Team with both 1 shots and CC at the same time, I need to chose 1 or the other, for that reason you chose CW instead of TR in a premade
TR's will dodge and get blown up after that 1 dodge
Could you explain in more detail how this target lock works?
It will follow lock your reticule on a specific target so you will know where that target is. If a TR goes into stealth you'll be able to know where he is. If used intelligently... its pretty op. As for how to bind it... there are lots of examples in forum or google. There are even ways to bind it to specific people on the other team for the match as I was shown. So... there are ways even for un-practiced people to find TR's in stealth...
0
leftyy13Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited December 2014
This is a very humorous poll. OP asks for people's thoughts and a vote and then wants to reply to everyone offering a different viewpoint. Majority of people queuing up for pvp are pugs and it would seem these changes would be aimed at ending a lot of the frustration the majority of people have. Its not fun for anyone but the TRolls themselves to see 3 people go to home point over and over dying to the same TR over and over again. Its kind of stupid on their part but that is the way it is a lot of times. For the average person playing pvp in this game, its a stupid mechanic to let TR be in stealth 99% of the time.
No one needs stealth if u can specc scoundrel + p.lightning and daze the whole node with 1 flurry.
Also the drown set will give TRs overload slots and im pretty sure flurry + red glyphs will hurt alot since the dmg modifier from scoundrel work amazing with red glyphs.
There's always a way to make a class viable if u put enough effort into it.
If you still wanna hold a 2v1 dont expect to kill someone or even clear the whole node since no other class can do that.
We could also talk about TRs being able to reset healing depression while keeping it active on the enemy but thats a whole different story.
My honest opinion about the stealth reveal... i'm not sure, i rather have a decreased movespeed in stealth and maybe 90% movespeed with sneakattack so other classes can actually catch up with trs and projectiles can actually hit them in stealth.
That together with an dmg nerf should be enough.
There's no need to come up with a way, it's already possible, Look at what velynna said. I've been telling everyone here for 4 days now that perm stealth is easily countered with
Practice
Visual Tells (that already exist)
and Sound
Trust me when I say velynna has no reason to agree with me, but the truth of the matter is the truth
Now people can say "Thats just 1 guy"
But there was a LOT more in the history of our game, the issue is many of them quit because of the many imbalances that happened
Rookz can chase down stealthers like no other
Allt has a grasp of it
I can do it exceptionally well
Sobek on the same stand
Tyrion is getting the hang of it
Crollax can do it as well
Iyon has developed full encounter rotations where he can sunburst a TR and lay down chains where he'll come down from the air, even when the TR is in stealth
Practice makes perfect, stealth is easily remedied
\
What did velynna say? She said "The truth is, very few people can catch a TR efficiently.".
She did vote for "TR's Need Both Damage Reduction and Stealth Reveal".
You say that TR can easily be countered but still only a handful of players can do it? That makes no sense at all. If its easy, people would not complain as much as they do about TRs.
I think the gap needs to be reduced so its not as hard to catch a TR. I mean, people needs to switch encounters, passives, gear, enchantments just to fight a TR and then switch back when fighting anything else and if something else shows up during the TR fight, you die because what you have slotted sucks against everything else. Allt is very good at catching TRs and his build was all about catching TRs in mod4 but normal players cant do what Allt does because people cant afford it.
The game is supposed to be fun to play and perma-stealth is the biggest problem regarding that and I think that's one of the main reasons they wanted to change it in the first place. It needs to be done in a good way.
Comments
i am talking about how things are now on live and why the change in stealth was needed
Er, what? From what I understand, target lock breaks once a TR goes into stealth. It won't help you find a TR when they stealth. As an aside, I've never, ever known Sobek to use it. You don't need target lock to use savage advance properly...
Yea so now your rotation is incredible hard to land-> daze-> SE- thank you and see you later. Perma stealth was strong in all modules. Module 1 TR can one shot everyone. Remember module 2 and immortals GWF? only Perma Tr could stand against him. example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW06_FeV5eo. Module 3 we all know that the still GWF was very strong and HR started to be OP in this moment but we all know PTR can hold them and even kill them if he was good. Mod4 we know HR was broken but now he is tonned down and blanced. Maby in module 4 TR hasn't got powerful dmg but he was almost unkilable if played well and could also kill if he knws how to play. Maybe from my CW perspective it looks like this becouse every class can kill me, but now TR is just killing another classes in few seconds. What Devs said: PTR should be difficult to achieve. But how he should be difficult to achieve when all skill + set renew stealth all time? + this incredible high dmg.....sorry but 20k from GC it is far to much.
no it doesnt break unless tr uses b&s
Really? Again, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've been told, it breaks when you lose sight on the target, which pretty much includes when a TR goes into stealth and moves away from the enemy.
I take that one cause if i say "ok, been playing since july 2013, learned how to spot permas in august 2013, got no problem with perma till module 5. Now it's a problem" you guys would reply "Learn 2 Play". I have yet to see a single 1v1 video, or situation in game, where a equally geared GWF trashed an equally geared TR. I see 14k GWF easily destroyed in PvP while i see 14k TRs going 20-0 in pugs more and more.
And my point of view is exactly opposite to yours and is the same as ortzhy.
High damage is fine as long as i can dodge it and it does not mean 1-shotting people with a daze+daily or just daily on a GWF who cannot dodge (=free kill as tyrion explained in his thread). It's your job.
I'm not fine with current survivability overkill on TRs. Longer rolls and extra roll were needed if, as the devs promised, permastealth would become more difficult to achieve and less rewarding/ at a cost. For very same TR admission permastealth is now even easier and we now have, from an opponent point of view, TRs who can, with proper build, stay in stealth 90% of the time or more while beneffitting from increased dodges and increased mobility. You either have Mod4 stealth with Mod4 mobility/dodges OR mod5 mobility/dodges but with less stealth (i'd prefer this).
Also: TR timing his moves wrong---> very low chance. Sorry but you guys have your target there in plain sight. And timing versus sprint is easy as a pie for me on my GWF/HR, can't imagine when you are safe in stealth.
GWF timing his moves wrong vs a TR he has a 0.2s chance to catch or he has to "predict" while the TR is in stealth? Quite high.
It's not a fair "you can miss, i can miss". By a long shot. Or we would not be here discussing. Right now, against Saboteurs (?) or whatever build it is, it's more like "you're lucky/ must have perfect timing and latency to get me, i can easily nail you unless i use only 0.1% of my brain".
The problem is not damage apart from the one-shotting dailies. It's the survivability, which is right now BY FAR the best, for the Saboteur (stealth focused?) tree among all classes. And i mean ALL CLASSES included DC tanks, GF tanks, GWF tanks. PvP TRs with stealth builds die far less than any other class.
It's no difference from the video above, to be honest, it's even greater the difference now: any class jumping on a node full of enemies= dead in seconds. Module 5 TR with "BiS" build--->jump on node, kills someone, might get hurt (but often, not) but can slip away to recover.
It's attack-->defend. Example: GWF vs GF. I need to time my sprint anticipating their prone/CC combo or i get rotated. Then they need to guard and i need to get behind them. In both cases there's a clear way to attack the enemy and defend from it.
Against TR it's not this way cause you have to anticipate the attack ad sprint (defend), then when you should attack and the TR should defend, the TR is either immune rolling away or in stealth with superior mobility and can still roll quite a bit.
May be sobek has rank 10 darks but even on my GWF with 1k mobility, stamina boon, stamina feat and bravery, TRs can still outrun me with dodges and pure bunnyhopping in stealth. When i anticipate their movements, they just roll away. When you catch them, they can usually stand one rotation or soulforge and disappear again.
Module4 TR needed only a damage buff, not a mobility/ dodge roll buff. You can't have a tree with same stealth as module 4 and much more mobility/ rolls immunity.
100% sure it will follow the tr in stealth. Ohh and that should be remove from the game as well, is rly nasty when a GF uses that with shield up or a HR that hits everything...
And this thread is about the incoming changes to the 2sec reveal on hit
He does not use only savage advance. At some point he is at mid, midgy gets away bunnyhopping in stealth, and sobek follows him bunnyhopping following the same exact path.
When you anticipate a TR you sprint/run straight to where you think he is going. You don't bunnyhope or run doing the exact same turns, exact same movements, following the exact same path.
14:10 roughly: TR in stealth, GWF uses threat rush. Rush needs target, can't target a stealth TR with threat rush unless you're locking on him.
14:20---> TR in stealth. Even if you see him rolling that way, you don't know where the TR will turn (left or right), yet the GWF bunnyhops following exactly the same path.
He's not always locking, but he's doing it, that's what i say.
There's also a thread a TR opened time ago asking for target lock removal cause it allowed GWFs to keep tracking stealth TRs.
Looks like lock does not break if the GWF manages to stay in range of the TR.
Now i doubt a GWF would be able to keep up with a module 5 TR mobility.
Other than that, at 3 minutes he clears the TR roughly guessing where the TR will go and shooting a AoE power with huge radius.
I'm against current Intimidation sentinels as much as i think TRs need a fix on survivability.
Cause it's dumb that the PvP build for GWF is a tank build that deals huge single target damage through a couple of utility AoE moves.
Seriously. You should understand how dumb it is just reading it.
Now, suppose that the devs get back to sanity and decide to rework GWFs to make the work properly (aiming their encounters instead of shooting AoE stuff to kill single enemies in PvP). You can forget about half the times Sobek gets the TR.
This said, it would be interesting to see some vs from these guys in module 5. Expacially after midgy said this Sobek Senpai can clear BiS TRs easily. I'm curious, and if there's something i missed, i'm more than prepared to change my mind. As i said, and you can see it in my old posts, before module 5 i always kinda defended permastealth cause it really was possible to catch permas with skills and anticipation.
Talked with some other people. It's as I said. It breaks when you lose sight of the target, which is when they enter stealth and move away. If it actually worked, far fewer would be complaining about TR stealth, because TRs would be cleared within a matter of seconds by just about any class (especially CW).
That being said, I don't think it should work in PvP either.
It's called headphones + a ton of experience, mate...
exe should be the tree which has the most deadly burst dmg and uses stealth as a boost to maximize the dmg potential.
scoundrel is for the ones who like to play as an agile cc brawler.
as for sab its supposed to utilizes and extends the possibility to remain in stealth patiently and strike when an opportunity is open.
They wanted to make it hard to maintain perma, stealth depletion on hit already served the purpose.
However, what the real problem is right now is that sab has both stealth AND dmg. and the fact that a sab can burst u down in a matter of seconds while u dont even know when its coming. its the new dmg we possess now that you are not used to, not because you can't see us most of the time. we cld perma forever in mod4 3 etc but did you feel threatened back then when we landed a flurry on u?
I will repeat this again but for the final time, do ppl even read before summoning comments? Nerf the dmg to moderate what sab is not specialized in, do it in a way that doesnt affect the dmg output for exe TRs in pve, which is why a speperate rework needs to take place. I personally dont care if i have to go back to mod4 dmg as im so used to it. making 2 sec reveal on hit is a cheap, ill considered solution, which will not only making ranged paragon path not viable but also destory the key feature of this class.
go try it and see for yourself
No. It doesn't. I use it now to track permas all over the map. You can even macro it to target one specific person all match. Targeting can screw up with B&S or another target that crosses the reticule.. but if used properly... its a pretty huge advantage :P. If you don't believe me... use the ++HardTargetLock bind and follow a friend around the enclave. Let them go to the other side lolol.
Could you explain in more detail how this target lock works?
sobek is one of the best players in the game and he does not use target lock to kill TRs, he has been going up against the best TRs in the game for over a year and a half now, so if you are saying he is target-locking because you cant evade him always, no its just because he is insanely good at what he does, and thats figuring out where a tr is and killing them
As for the people who think its fake and don't know me, it's a public vote, and I'm pretty confident there are more fakes pro stealth change then for it
Yes my guild voted, but as iyon stated theres a good % that voted against me, infact I've had many people say they don't want to vote because it would be against me, and I told them too anyways
I do not care if my point of view is right, I care if my point of view is best for the community, and you can be sore and call it fake, but the results are still evident, even some of my opponents in arguments; Godmode for one, voted for no stealth reveal
Ultimately the reason i'm complaining is as follows
Whenever a TR nerf comes out, I ask my self a question
"Would the team benefit more if I played a different class instead of TR now"
And that answer would be yes should this reveal go through
TR won't be able to stand on its own anymore in realistic premade scenarios, it will constantly have to be baby sitted much like a GWF has to now
the difference is, GWF can run away even if he hits you, TR will hit you, dodge roll once, then you'll catch him with your AoE/Single target CC/ you name it
As velynna stated earlier, Sobek has practiced tons to catch TR's and he does it with minimum ease
Why this is all made possible is because tr's have .2-.5 seconds before the can cast another dodge roll after just completeing one
this is enough time to land any AoE or a spell such as entangle before the TR can dodge again, and should this situation happen after the TR just came out of ITC, it's GG.
So on that ground, I don't see why theres any reason to take TR over any class then SW at this point, should the changes go through
A GWF will have more damage and the ability to run
A GF will benefit the team 100% more
A DC will benefit the team 100% more
A HR can stand on its own and will regain its near top of the game 1v1 Status
A CW Can benefit the team a hell of a lot more with combing CC and 1 shot capabilities *Not saying they need to be removed*
and as stated before, I'm not sure why a team would take a SW over TR, although thats just because SW needs serious buffing
This patch will push TR's out of the useable category for premades because
A) no more node holding
C) if you want CC, you just take a CW, because they can also 1 shot
I think you need to focus on how to change the stealth instead of just saying that you will be useless with the proposed changes. Stealth is a problem and it needs fixing. Im not sure if the proposed fix is good or not but if you dont think its good, come up with another way to deal with perma-stealth.
really that tree has no sense now.
can we agree on that? it needs major rework, a healing tree maybe??
There's no need to come up with a way, it's already possible, Look at what velynna said. I've been telling everyone here for 4 days now that perm stealth is easily countered with
Practice
Visual Tells (that already exist)
and Sound
Trust me when I say velynna has no reason to agree with me, but the truth of the matter is the truth
Now people can say "Thats just 1 guy"
But there was a LOT more in the history of our game, the issue is many of them quit because of the many imbalances that happened
Rookz can chase down stealthers like no other
Allt has a grasp of it
I can do it exceptionally well
Sobek on the same stand
Tyrion is getting the hang of it
Crollax can do it as well
Iyon has developed full encounter rotations where he can sunburst a TR and lay down chains where he'll come down from the air, even when the TR is in stealth
Practice makes perfect, stealth is easily remedied
\
(claps) I applaud you sir!
This is so true!
Making TR show up when attacking will only take away the other viable options TRs currently have with executioner and sab paths.
Scoundrel will be prime because of the daze effect from critical hits.
Thus,
Players will max scoundrel capstone and feats with 10 points in sab tree for gloaming stealth ability, then just daze gloaming you to death.
Notice you don't see this happening now?
WHY?
Because TR's know they don't have to choke down one method of playing to have a "chance" to win.
Imagine a premade party of TR that you can see when they hit you... but still you cannot hit back because you are perma dazed.
That is what is coming.
That is what is being forced.
end of story..
All I will say is wait and see..
I'd agree, but they're just going to 2v1 you because your an easy target and if they get there before your team mate does your dead!
Well if I have 2 people on me im dead too and Im not even a TR.
And you can benefit your Team with both 1 shots and CC at the same time, I need to chose 1 or the other, for that reason you chose CW instead of TR in a premade
TR's will dodge and get blown up after that 1 dodge
It will follow lock your reticule on a specific target so you will know where that target is. If a TR goes into stealth you'll be able to know where he is. If used intelligently... its pretty op. As for how to bind it... there are lots of examples in forum or google. There are even ways to bind it to specific people on the other team for the match as I was shown. So... there are ways even for un-practiced people to find TR's in stealth...
Also the drown set will give TRs overload slots and im pretty sure flurry + red glyphs will hurt alot since the dmg modifier from scoundrel work amazing with red glyphs.
There's always a way to make a class viable if u put enough effort into it.
If you still wanna hold a 2v1 dont expect to kill someone or even clear the whole node since no other class can do that.
We could also talk about TRs being able to reset healing depression while keeping it active on the enemy but thats a whole different story.
My honest opinion about the stealth reveal... i'm not sure, i rather have a decreased movespeed in stealth and maybe 90% movespeed with sneakattack so other classes can actually catch up with trs and projectiles can actually hit them in stealth.
That together with an dmg nerf should be enough.
What did velynna say? She said "The truth is, very few people can catch a TR efficiently.".
She did vote for "TR's Need Both Damage Reduction and Stealth Reveal".
You say that TR can easily be countered but still only a handful of players can do it? That makes no sense at all. If its easy, people would not complain as much as they do about TRs.
I think the gap needs to be reduced so its not as hard to catch a TR. I mean, people needs to switch encounters, passives, gear, enchantments just to fight a TR and then switch back when fighting anything else and if something else shows up during the TR fight, you die because what you have slotted sucks against everything else. Allt is very good at catching TRs and his build was all about catching TRs in mod4 but normal players cant do what Allt does because people cant afford it.
The game is supposed to be fun to play and perma-stealth is the biggest problem regarding that and I think that's one of the main reasons they wanted to change it in the first place. It needs to be done in a good way.