test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
The reason why RNG doesn't work
kc3i
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
The reason why RNG doesn't work (in my opinion)
I will try explain as simple as I can why RNG (Random Number Generator) doesn't work in ithis game.
First of all let me show you the difference between True RNG and Pseudo RNG:
True RNG (not used by computers):
Each roll is autonomous without any correlation with previous roll, you can acheive this by rolling diece or flipping coin. A physical random number generator can be based on an essentially random atomic or subatomic physical phenomenon whose unpredictability can be traced to the laws of quantum mechanics.
Pseudo RNG (used by computers):
Algorithm that can automatically create long runs of numbers with good random properties. One of the most common PRNG (Pseudo RNG) is the linear congruential generator, which uses recurrence. Simply saying it's the equation that produce new roll based on previous roll and mathematic formula. The first roll called seed is generated (randomized) in most cases by using computer clock miliseconds.
The most important feature of RNG is uniform distibution - an example if you roll many values from 0 to 100 ther is equal probability of rolling each value.
So where is the catch?
1) Uniform distribution of Pseudo RNG only works if RNG is used to one purpose eg. calculating crit or drop or deflect. If one RNG is used for drop chance and crit and deflect you can virtually never seen any drop because rolls that can give you a drop were used for crit rolls. I suppose that ther isn't even one RNG per player, rather one per instance (per server thread or something like that). Only True RNG can be used for all purposes without any limitations but in programming we got only Pseudo RNG.
2) Imagine the situation that ther's one RNG per player that gates only his IWD mainhand drop with chance of 1% (in my opinon it should be done that way). 1% chance works correctly only if RNG state would be saved in player account, saving RNG state gives you certainty that you get your drop soooner or later because RNG equation MUST finally roll your number (it's only math equation so more times you try more chance you get).
Conclusion:
1) There should be separate RNG's per player per each game feature (crit, deflect, lifesteal, etc.)
2) There should be separate RNG's per player per each rare drop and those RNG's states should be saved. After drop adequate RNG shoud be reset by randomizing it's seed.
Without above even 1% drop chance transfers into 0.000(any number of 0 you want)1% so it's pure luck not Pseudo RNG.
I will try explain as simple as I can why RNG (Random Number Generator) doesn't work in ithis game.
First of all let me show you the difference between True RNG and Pseudo RNG:
True RNG (not used by computers):
Each roll is autonomous without any correlation with previous roll, you can acheive this by rolling diece or flipping coin. A physical random number generator can be based on an essentially random atomic or subatomic physical phenomenon whose unpredictability can be traced to the laws of quantum mechanics.
Pseudo RNG (used by computers):
Algorithm that can automatically create long runs of numbers with good random properties. One of the most common PRNG (Pseudo RNG) is the linear congruential generator, which uses recurrence. Simply saying it's the equation that produce new roll based on previous roll and mathematic formula. The first roll called seed is generated (randomized) in most cases by using computer clock miliseconds.
The most important feature of RNG is uniform distibution - an example if you roll many values from 0 to 100 ther is equal probability of rolling each value.
So where is the catch?
1) Uniform distribution of Pseudo RNG only works if RNG is used to one purpose eg. calculating crit or drop or deflect. If one RNG is used for drop chance and crit and deflect you can virtually never seen any drop because rolls that can give you a drop were used for crit rolls. I suppose that ther isn't even one RNG per player, rather one per instance (per server thread or something like that). Only True RNG can be used for all purposes without any limitations but in programming we got only Pseudo RNG.
2) Imagine the situation that ther's one RNG per player that gates only his IWD mainhand drop with chance of 1% (in my opinon it should be done that way). 1% chance works correctly only if RNG state would be saved in player account, saving RNG state gives you certainty that you get your drop soooner or later because RNG equation MUST finally roll your number (it's only math equation so more times you try more chance you get).
Conclusion:
1) There should be separate RNG's per player per each game feature (crit, deflect, lifesteal, etc.)
2) There should be separate RNG's per player per each rare drop and those RNG's states should be saved. After drop adequate RNG shoud be reset by randomizing it's seed.
Without above even 1% drop chance transfers into 0.000(any number of 0 you want)1% so it's pure luck not Pseudo RNG.
Post edited by kc3i on
0
Comments
As such, I don't think they will do anything to make it easier to get the good equipment. They have come to the conclusion that low drop rates make people run the existing content more often, and therefore the additional content they need comes from repeating the dungeon over and over and over.
Not sure why they don't add tokens to the HE drop tables that can be used to buy the drop you want eventually. NOBODY should have to kill a dragon 1000 times just to get the item they want.
Because of that you think RNG is responsible - not really - random number is random number, what they do with it before you get end result is what makes it look so unfair
http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Wi_Flag
There are SO many ways it can be broken that without proper testing there is no way I'm willing to believe there aren't issues. From my observations it's way too streaky. To me that implies issues with their usage. The DD chest bug is just one illustration of broken usage of RNG.
Um...no. PRNG doesn't matter if it's being used for one or ten thousand purposes. Since those purposes occur at random times based on user pressing keys there is no "ordering" of random values. If you ALWAYS had a drop roll, followed by a crit roll, followed by a mob to-hit roll, in that order for every single PRNG roll, then maybe you'd see some possible non-uniformity. But, still extremely, extremely unlikely.
Without knowing which PRNG algorithm is being used, there is no way to determine it's quality.
Many, many applications make use of the Mersenne Twister:
Although, due to it's "slowness" I doubt it is what they actually use -- more likely some other PRNG available online somewhere. Without knowing which one they are using, makes all this PRNG discussion virtually irrelevant.
For all we know, they could be using a True RNG (Hardware)
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
That is a very fascinating read! And it feels exactly like the luck behaves on my chars: some always have bad luck, some always have good luck and the (good or bad) luck seems to stick on the chars, whatever I do.
Something Ive noticed of late. It may be complete observational bias. But, If youve ever run a dungeon (not a skirm, I play by different rules depending on what im doing) with me, I will pass on almost everything, green, blue, purple on 1st 2nd boss, etc. Until the last boss. Last few runs Ive seen I will pass on it all like I do and Ill greed on 1 thing in the final loot drop from final boss. (last 2 things were MoP and GMoP); I won them both, Ive been doing this for sometime now and seem to win most I greed when I pass on everything else. Its wierd may be complete RNG or observational bias. Please dont do this, I would like to win what I greed on
Just random stuff I noticed lately. Probably observational bias. Please keep greeding on all people, I need more testing.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The link wasn't about PRNGs it was about mis-using a number random number between 0 and 1. In that link they could have had a random number generator based on the decay of an atom nucleus and they still would have messed up their code.
That is a logic error, and that is always possible. Period. Full stop. It means that devs should be diligent, but that has nothing to do with the distribution of numbers in their random number generator.
I agree that gear should not be easily obtainable, but I disagree that RNG should be the gate keeper.
I would be fine if the dungeon is hard, and I can't complete it, and therefore I can't get the drop. I am totally fine with that. That motivates me to become better, to spend more time and play the game.
But when the dungeon is easily done in 15 minutes, yet run after runs I don't even see the shadow of the item I am looking for, it gets very tiring.
Also remember that the drop rates are likely less than 1%, anyway.
This is sort of like aliasing in the statistics; the average can still be n% over the entire poplulation, but some players at the 'edge' will actually sit at zero.
Here is a super simplified explanation so you can get the gist of it.
Because the generator is pseudo random, the random function maps to a fixed set of predetermined numbers. Because it is supposed to appear random, the distribution of the numbers isnt like {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}, or even {9,1,5,2,3,6,7,4,2}, but more like {9,7,8,9,2,3,7,6,4}, that is some possibilities appear more than once, but the cost is that some possibilities are removed. The set of possibilities is different for each player, so for most players this set will include a mix of everything, and the overall average for everyone will be close to the correct %. But some unlucky players might get a sequence like in the last example: the '1' can never come up, so if a '1' is needed, the people who's set of numbers don't include '1' have no chance of ever getting '1'.
The actual math is more complicated, and the exact chances depend on how the generator works, how it is seeded, and how it is called.